The prologue quest was a disappointment

[0_The_F00l]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So what happened in your dialogue? Anyways, it is clearly intended that both are there since the outcome of one talking at/to the other is there. While facing them aswell.

No , cause eternalism , they are there but also not there as well :D,

to answer your question , my dialogue had the operator inquiring about the lotus and the drifter just asks what does she mean. No interaction or referencing of the operator.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course she isnt the same. But that isnt the point I'm arguing against. You are just adding unknown attributes to her, that comes from practically nowhere. There are plenty of people that can hear and see the Void.

Adding unknown attributes that come from nowhere? you mean standard DE practice?

You clearly don't seem to get the point I am making. DE can come up with any justification they wish whether or not it makes sense, any of the points i have given can be used , DE has used worse in the past and i am sure they will use them in the future too.

There are indeed people that are void attuned , usually through contact with the void as well as some associated trauma - but they arent all affected the same way and do manifest different effects, The cavia are different from the tenno that are different from the orokin that are different from the corrupted that are different from the lotus that are different from granum spirits that are different from angels of the zariman.

Again , your lack of imagination does not make your opinions better (or worse) than anyone else's.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that isnt how it works, so no they cant. They would have to change it to a completely new reality (a new point of observation), since the only thing out of the ordinary (for eternalism) is that one thing got ripped out physically by Wally in order to coexsist in one reality. Since the Drifter has always been in the same reality as the tenno, only seperated from it within a pocket dimension. Otherwise the tenno would have never been able to observe the Drifter nor the Drifter being able to observe the tenno. Since the observed reality is bleeding through into Duviri and Duviri is bleeding out into reality since the membrane is under pressure. Anything they wanna change will all come down to the Void and has little to do with eternalism itself, since the Void simply breaks laws and is completely made up as it is used in the game.

Do you even understand what the hell you are talking about? "Out of the oridnary For eternalism" , Eternalism as a concept itself isn't ordinary - not to mention it is not absolute , is not a singular theory nor is it unilaterally accepted -and what DE actually thinks is a seperate issue by itself (we are talking about a company that made Venus have a cold environment before they came up with an explanation for it much later ) . But i think you are getting to my point (albeit the long way for some reason) - DE can come up with any excuse to explain anything away , whether it makes sense or not - whether its a real concept or imaginary.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they had a multiverse timeline setup, more things would in reality make sense, since suddenly plot holes and lore holes could come from another verse. But with eternalism, the different perspectives do not mix, Drifter being the exception due to what Wally did. If we were able to enter another "reality" within the concept of eternalism it wouldnt result in a DC or Marvel thing, where we'd have Earth-1 and Earth-616 Batman as two seperates, we'd just observe reality in a different way while there would still just be one us, and we would likely be unaware of it.

I agree with this somewhat , i dont think DE thought too deeply about what they are trying to do. It was a completely unnecessary and pointless thing to do. 

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No I have plenty of imagination. There is just no point to it when we know what the game is rooted in, what theories are supposed to be reality within the universe and so on. Then we also have how things are animated within the prologue, how the Drifter acts towards both Lotus and Operator, along with as I mentioned in my previous post, that the Operator is clearly also using the Orbiter, as seen in Jade Shadows, which takes place after TNW. Which places him smack in the middle of reality.

I disagree , about you having imagination , i think you will believe in whatever is given and when DE changes that (either via retcon or some other nonsense) you will believe that too and then pretend that was your opinion all along.

The drifter isn't "also" using the orbiter in jade shadows , the operator is the only one there (unless he is somewhere offscreen the entire time , maybe ostron cuisine was doing a sabotage mission in his guts ). This statement is pointless as you are able to switch between them between missions- so not sure what you were even trying to say beyond grasping at straws.

Besides, the existence of the drifter AND operator are a paradox, paradoxes by their nature are nonsensical and unreal.

Edited August 26 by 0_The_F00l

[MrDugan]

I had 3 thoughts about the quest.  There was literally zero reason to have us follow that cat around.  Virtually no player in the history of gaming has ever been happy about escort mission mechanics, and it's precisely because of this.  The cat is slow, doesn't move at player pace, which means you have to stop-and-go traffic your way to the objective.  Which left me sour by the time I got to the phone where literally nothing happened.

There was also no reason to have selectable dialogue.  It's the illusion of choice.  It meant nothing.  

This whole thing, minus the cat following (which was most of the content, if we're being honest.) should have just been the start of the actual quest.  There was no reason to release the first 2 minutes of the quest early.  It did not increase hype for me, it made me roll my eyes, and it was entirely because of the pointless walking.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Rhagius said:

you clearly remembered the storyline better than i did. i must have headcanoned the multiverse timeline thing together with eternalism at some point, but all of that really doesn't change the icky feeling of what happens with us being the consciousness, the "tenno" and having so many contradictory things presented in the game now. if the drifter and operator got physically split and are both present and active at the same time and in the same universe, then one has to operate with a different ego/consciousness than us. and if that is the case, we should not be allowed to make decisions for the one we didn't choose ( andi don't think liking ot to other rpgs is fair, as that would throw the whole concept of the players being the tennos straight out of the window) and we shouldn't be able to switch.

i am willing to put this to DE simply retconning us being the actual tenno consiousness and now we are just people playing multiple characters, but i think that massively sucks in comparison.

It is just a game afterall, which is why I compared it to those other games where you can control several different characters and make choices for everyone even if you arent everyone of them yourself, or none of them in some cases. The Tenno and Drifter are like that, since they both have their defined forced stories and we can pick between which one we wanna play as in other cases. But we can also just look at MMOs or even something like an ARPG where you might play several different classes on unique characters. Just look at the operator and drifter the same way, they are two characters that you have the option to control. Both are individuals but still RPed by you through the choices you make for them.

I've played several MMOs with multiple alts, all being of different races and classes, with different personalities within the game. In WoW I had some characters that were all out murderers towards the opposite faction, while others were neutral or even helpful to the extent we could help the other faction. And some that would just let their own die instead of reaching out a helping hand. I had some that evolved, like a gnome warlock that started out being deadly scared of demons, which over the years shifted into a tight friendship between him and his fel guardian, to a point where I would sit and "discuss" philosophy with it in the middle of Stormwind or Iron Forge.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

to answer your question , my dialogue had the operator inquiring about the lotus and the drifter just asks what does she mean. No interaction or referencing of the operator.

Ah that explains it a bit.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Adding unknown attributes that come from nowhere? you mean standard DE practice?

You clearly don't seem to get the point I am making. DE can come up with any justification they wish whether or not it makes sense, any of the points i have given can be used , DE has used worse in the past and i am sure they will use them in the future too.

There are indeed people that are void attuned , usually through contact with the void as well as some associated trauma - but they arent all affected the same way and do manifest different effects, The cavia are different from the tenno that are different from the orokin that are different from the corrupted that are different from the lotus that are different from granum spirits that are different from angels of the zariman.

Again , your lack of imagination does not make your opinions better (or worse) than anyone else's.

DE can yes. But there is zero point adding complication to things as they are. I dont think DE would have had interaction as part of the prologue for instance if they wanted to imply they are just in Lotus mind and not physically there. Nor would they have placed the Tenno inside the Orbiter during Jade Shadows as a forced interaction.

And you must consider eternalism as something real aswell. So there is only a single reality and timeline we experience and observe. Which makes it even less likely that the two arent physically there during the prologue. And again, Jade Shadows and the Tenno inside the Orbiter no matter what choice we've made in TNW.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Do you even understand what the hell you are talking about? "Out of the oridnary For eternalism" , Eternalism as a concept itself isn't ordinary - not to mention it is not absolute , is not a singular theory nor is it unilaterally accepted -and what DE actually thinks is a seperate issue by itself (we are talking about a company that made Venus have a cold environment before they came up with an explanation for it much later ) . But i think you are getting to my point (albeit the long way for some reason) - DE can come up with any excuse to explain anything away , whether it makes sense or not - whether its a real concept or imaginary.

Yes, which is why I said "for eternalism". While it isnt an absolute or a singular theory for us it is the theory in the WF universe. You cant have missed that part if you were slightly awake when you did TNW. And it is even further enforced as the focus in Orokin society due to Teshin, whom also references it and tells us what we can do to it thanks to access to the Void inside the undercroft. However, it is possible it isnt true aswell, since we havent seen anything concrete to prove it within the game. Which doesnt say much, since we havent seen proof of anything opposite either.

Yeah DE can come up with anything. But we need to still look at how things are currently presented.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I agree with this somewhat , i dont think DE thought too deeply about what they are trying to do. It was a completely unnecessary and pointless thing to do. 

Yeah, my main problem is that I dont think DE read up properly on eternalism, it might be possible they did what many do, drew connections between it and a multiverse theory. However, aslong as they stick to time travel (honestly i hope it isnt actual time travel, but just us visiting another pocket dimension within the Void) it isnt all too messy to keep eternalism as a working thing. And if it is explained through the Void being involved, it can be explained as easily as Teshin talking about the Undercroft and how it can impact reality.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I disagree , about you having imagination , i think you will believe in whatever is given and when DE changes that (either via retcon or some other nonsense) you will believe that too and then pretend that was your opinion all along.

The drifter isn't "also" using the orbiter in jade shadows , the operator is the only one there (unless he is somewhere offscreen the entire time , maybe ostron cuisine was doing a sabotage mission in his guts ). This statement is pointless as you are able to switch between them between missions- so not sure what you were even trying to say beyond grasping at straws.

Besides, the existence of the drifter AND operator are a paradox, paradoxes by their nature are nonsensical and unreal.

Nope, since I've had theories about what has actually happened regarding what we didnt know. But now we have more proof so I can put those theories aside and accept that we have gotten clarity instead of clinging onto those theories still and ignore the evidence presented through two quests now. I'll gladly admit my theories were wrong.

My point is, he isnt gone from reality after TNW. He has access to the Orbiter just as the Drifter, so wasnt absorbed into a singularity, so us picking between the two isnt just gameplay mechanics to save us from losing cosmetic etc. for one just because we chose the other.

Of course a paradox is unreal, who said otherwise, or where do you see the opposite implied even? Our paradox is however unique, since the Drifter is a physical singular "created" through the use of the Void by a powerful Void entity that seperated Drifter from the Tenno. And there isnt any place in the game aside from the Drifter (how would he even know?) that implies the two cannot exsist together in reality. Not everything needs to result in Time Cop.

I'm interested in where you think the operator is hiding if the two cannot exsist in the same reality. That would practically mean he is hiding in the actual Void, since he cannot hide on Duviri, because he cant access it. And any other place outside of the Void is reality. Unless you still have theories that the two merged and only one physical singular exsists. But that cant be the case, since we know Wally is specifically gunning for the Tenno, hence why the Drifter will be sent to 1999. So where is the Tenno hiding to avoid destroying reality, killing the drifter, killing himself or killing both?

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

DE can yes. But there is zero point adding complication to things as they are. I dont think DE would have had interaction as part of the prologue for instance if they wanted to imply they are just in Lotus mind and not physically there. Nor would they have placed the Tenno inside the Orbiter during Jade Shadows as a forced interaction.

And you must consider eternalism as something real aswell. So there is only a single reality and timeline we experience and observe. Which makes it even less likely that the two arent physically there during the prologue. And again, Jade Shadows and the Tenno inside the Orbiter no matter what choice we've made in TNW.

I am not adding complications , i am thinking up scenarios , We are on a forum discussing , elaborating and debating ideas is kinda the point of it.

I also think you misunderstood me again  i am not saying the Drifter and operator are imaginary during the prologue - i think they are separated by space , time or some dimensions - but the Lotus thinks they are in the same space , time and dimension - why? mental trauma paired with void influence is twisting her perception and personality (she wants to let the void have the operator afterall). Like watching a mix of movies out of sequence.

I will wait for DE to define their actual concept of eternalism (within the game) before we agree or disagree on how "real" it is. Its a bunch of nonsense to me as of now and not even DE knows what they are talking about. So forgive me if i dont blindly trust your assumptions of what DE means when they actively have time travel as part of the game..

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes, which is why I said "for eternalism". While it isnt an absolute or a singular theory for us it is the theory in the WF universe. You cant have missed that part if you were slightly awake when you did TNW. And it is even further enforced as the focus in Orokin society due to Teshin, whom also references it and tells us what we can do to it thanks to access to the Void inside the undercroft. However, it is possible it isnt true aswell, since we havent seen anything concrete to prove it within the game. Which doesnt say much, since we havent seen proof of anything opposite either.

Yeah, my main problem is that I dont think DE read up properly on eternalism, it might be possible they did what many do, drew connections between it and a multiverse theory. However, aslong as they stick to time travel (honestly i hope it isnt actual time travel, but just us visiting another pocket dimension within the Void) it isnt all too messy to keep eternalism as a working thing. And if it is explained through the Void being involved, it can be explained as easily as Teshin talking about the Undercroft and how it can impact reality. 

Again , i didnt miss it , but it is rubbish as a theory so far  , it is the equivalent of explaining calculus using examples of elementary grade Maths. It exists only as a means to justify anything that DE does that doesnt fit logically and them not really bothering beyond providing rudimentary statements. Whether or not it is actually true or just Orokin Propaganda (for whatever purpose) is something i have questioned personally as a different topic.

Time travel already exists in the game - albeit localised and sometimes difficult to separate it from simple hallucinations.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, since I've had theories about what has actually happened regarding what we didnt know. But now we have more proof so I can put those theories aside and accept that we have gotten clarity instead of clinging onto those theories still and ignore the evidence presented through two quests now. I'll gladly admit my theories were wrong.

My point is, he isnt gone from reality after TNW. He has access to the Orbiter just as the Drifter, so wasnt absorbed into a singularity, so us picking between the two isnt just gameplay mechanics to save us from losing cosmetic etc. for one just because we chose the other.

The evidence you talk of is anecdotal at best , as i have already mentioned, you are free to accept it as you see fit. I myself find it less convincing.

I am not sure if ever said any of them are gone from reality or absorbed per se  , Besides reality in warframe is malleable.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course a paradox is unreal, who said otherwise, or where do you see the opposite implied even? Our paradox is however unique, since the Drifter is a physical singular "created" through the use of the Void by a powerful Void entity that seperated Drifter from the Tenno. And there isnt any place in the game aside from the Drifter (how would he even know?) that implies the two cannot exsist together in reality. Not everything needs to result in Time Cop.

Right so a paradox is unreal ,

The drifter and Operator are a paradox ,

But the Drifter and Operator are real ,

So a paradox is unreal but real in select instances,

Not quite logically structured now is it?

 

I also do not agree with your view that the void entity created the drifter any more than the void entity created the operator. You simply saying "its a physical singular" does not automatically make it true.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm interested in where you think the operator is hiding if the two cannot exsist in the same reality. That would practically mean he is hiding in the actual Void, since he cannot hide on Duviri, because he cant access it. And any other place outside of the Void is reality. Unless you still have theories that the two merged and only one physical singular exsists. But that cant be the case, since we know Wally is specifically gunning for the Tenno, hence why the Drifter will be sent to 1999. So where is the Tenno hiding to avoid destroying reality, killing the drifter, killing himself or killing both?

You are jumping to conclusions when you don't even have your feet on the ground. I dont think anyone is hiding though , i would refer to them as "braided beings" they both experience the same situation and make the same choices in reality, it is when they are in proximity of unreality (void?) that they literally "unravel" in a localised instance, That is when their choices diverge ,

I theorize that the operator and drifter can share experiences when they are in the braided reality - which includes the experiences when they were unraveled - like sharing a network drive.

So even though Only the operator performed all acts leading up to the new war , the drifter is aware of them as well , and even though the drifter is exclusive to duviri the operator is aware as well.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am not adding complications , i am thinking up scenarios , We are on a forum discussing , elaborating and debating ideas is kinda the point of it.

I also think you misunderstood me again  i am not saying the Drifter and operator are imaginary during the prologue - i think they are separated by space , time or some dimensions - but the Lotus thinks they are in the same space , time and dimension - why? mental trauma paired with void influence is twisting her perception and personality (she wants to let the void have the operator afterall). Like watching a mix of movies out of sequence.

I will wait for DE to define their actual concept of eternalism (within the game) before we agree or disagree on how "real" it is. Its a bunch of nonsense to me as of now and not even DE knows what they are talking about. So forgive me if i dont blindly trust your assumptions of what DE means when they actively have time travel as part of the game..

But uhm that is complications. Because they arent really grounded in what we know at all. Like the second paragraph here. Uhm where is the operator then in comparison to the drifter? What "time", "space" or "dimension" are you thinking they are in instead of actually being in reality? And DE have kinda already defined their concept, since we get to know what the Orokin know about it in TNW classroom sequence.

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Again , i didnt miss it , but it is rubbish as a theory so far  , it is the equivalent of explaining calculus using examples of elementary grade Maths. It exists only as a means to justify anything that DE does that doesnt fit logically and them not really bothering beyond providing rudimentary statements. Whether or not it is actually true or just Orokin Propaganda (for whatever purpose) is something i have questioned personally as a different topic.

Time travel already exists in the game - albeit localised and sometimes difficult to separate it from simple hallucinations.

The Void exsists as a means to justify anything DE does, not eternalism, since there is nothing in eternalism itself that would allow them to do anything really to fix plot holes etc. That is all on the Void which is completely made up aside from the notion that it is timeless (nothing exsists in void space except energy). The Void is also the reason there is "time travel" like that of Protea. Which is practically the only concrete example we have of time travel itself. However that doesnt mean we suddenly have other dimensions of reality where someone like the operator might hide away. We only know of the Void, Duviri within the Void and reality itself, or a potential past. But it isnt likely that the operator is in any of those places but reality, since Wally is looking for him since he wants to get his hands on the operator, so anything with ties to the void would be risky, just like sending the operator to 1999.

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The evidence you talk of is anecdotal at best , as i have already mentioned, you are free to accept it as you see fit. I myself find it less convincing.

I am not sure if ever said any of them are gone from reality or absorbed per se  , Besides reality in warframe is malleable.

How is the Drifter looking at the Operator and talking at/to it anecdotal? It is there in the game, it is proof that the two do exsist as seperate entities within the same reality. It is in the very writing of the lore of the game. Just that you chose different conversation options does not mean they are not there, they just had no reason to interact. And we also experience the operator being in the orbiter post TNW when Stalker comes and asks for help. Those are simple facts and shown as part of reality. Or is the Stalker traveling through dimensions and time or have visions like Lotus?

No that was my theory, that they were absorbed and whomever not chosen by us was gone, since that is practically what we see in TNW and the operator nowhere to be seen since then until Jade Shadows.

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Right so a paradox is unreal ,

The drifter and Operator are a paradox ,

But the Drifter and Operator are real ,

So a paradox is unreal but real in select instances,

Not quite logically structured now is it?

 

I also do not agree with your view that the void entity created the drifter any more than the void entity created the operator. You simply saying "its a physical singular" does not automatically make it true.

We see and experience them both as physical singulars. And yes, Wally also created the Operator. The Operator was granted powers and was saved along with the rest, the Drifter was seperated from the Operator and left stranded. One suddenly became two from that point on. Even Lotus is referencing their differences, so they are clearly two, since one can be sent to 1999 while the other cant. Or are you hung up on the word "physical"? They are simply to seperate singulars from the point of the deal and forward.

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are jumping to conclusions when you don't even have your feet on the ground. I dont think anyone is hiding though , i would refer to them as "braided beings" they both experience the same situation and make the same choices in reality, it is when they are in proximity of unreality (void?) that they literally "unravel" in a localised instance, That is when their choices diverge ,

I theorize that the operator and drifter can share experiences when they are in the braided reality - which includes the experiences when they were unraveled - like sharing a network drive.

So even though Only the operator performed all acts leading up to the new war , the drifter is aware of them as well , and even though the drifter is exclusive to duviri the operator is aware as well.

Clearly not, since then the Drifter and the Operator would both be sent to 1999, while Lotus specifically states it needs to be the Drifter. We would also constantly see both then whenever we are in Void tiles, or the Labs, or in a Fissure. Since if the Void makes them unravel, that would be in all those places. Not to mention that the Void is constantly with them since it is part of them. How come they dont unravel randomly when in Void mode etc? Since that is what it would mean if they make the same choices in reality, because one would go where the other goes.

It also gets wonky when you start considering the choices of other characters, since this whole theory breaks when the will of others gets included. There are things the two simply cannot experience the same. Jade Shadows for example. Drifter could have never observed the same outcome as the Operator, since the Stalker is only looking for the Operator in order to save Jade. Unless you start to talk completely alternate reality, but then we are no longer looking at eternalism either, then you are suddenly looking at two seperate realities, two seperate universes. Which is not what eternalism is about at all.

[Avrael_Asgard]

Normally im really not disappointed by quests like, ever. This was the first time since i play that i would say they really missed with this one. I am, or we are, probably also too spoiled from all the bomb updates the last years, so this one miss hits that much harder. I feel like it would maybe have been better not do add this quest at all, im not sure if it did more bad then good. People that would not have been disappointed if no quest would have come right now, are now disappointed, for basically no reason. Its not that this quest brought something bad, its just that it brought nothing. The one good thing is that its only available very late, after whispers and all quests before that. Imagine a new player would play this, think "This is how quests are in this game?" and probably leave. Alone the thought would make me really sad, because this ISNT how quests are normally done at all.

[(NSW)XXxzadrixXX]

I thought it was okay. It was short just didn't expect it to be THAT short? I did like the duo choices with my tenno and the drifter but didn't enjoy the fact they forced me to play as the drifter 'again'. Look yeah, it's for 'romantic purposes' but even that is text based and optional too and the whole reasoning behind the drifter even going didn't feel clear even when you put away the meta reason.

The new pager thing was cool wish it actually did something..

3/10

Doubt the operator will just stay there tho. Here's hoping we'll got a choice or don't have to use the drifter for long?

Edited August 28 by (NSW)XXxzadrixXX

[powerofvoid]

On 2024-08-25 at 10:53 AM, Alpha545 said:

Much like with Jade Shadows and practically everything that has come before that, it grinds my gears how much Warframe's story/writing/dialogue/worldbuilding seems averse to having people understand it. It's never willing to sit you down an explain what's going, why it's going on, what people want and what they know. I want to get invested in the story, I *want* to like it, but there's this barrier that I can't get through, like the story doesn't actually want me along.

For instance, I still don't know what the Lotus really wants. I feel like every time we get anything from her it's in some sort of mind-altered state. In the early game she is implied to be under some sort of mind-control from Ballas so as to function as the Lotus, then when Ballas shows up she is overtly being affected by something, she seems to alternate between confidently anti-orokin/anti-tenno and *confused*. Then after absorbing a few archon shards she seems to sort-of go back to early game Lotus except that I'm suspicious as to how she reacts to the Operator trying to help. It doesn't give me protective vibes (although I expect that protective vibes *was* what was intended), more 'leave me alone' vibes. (In fact it kinda feels like we bullied her into becoming the Lotus again as a result.)
Anyhow, now during Lotus Eaters she is apparently affected by Wally, so we have the same issue again. In fact she says she want to give us to Wally and I just don't know what to make of it. All of this has left me in a state of "I just don't know :(".

I would like to know: who is the Lotus at this point? What are her motivations? Does she care about the Operator? About the Tenno? About her work as the Lotus?
And for anyone who has an answer to these questions: why do you think that that is the answer?

I would say that every character in Warframe, including your Operator and Drifter, is written as being (almost?) deliberately opaque and mysterious about stuff.

It's... a bit annoying, I'll admit.

As for the Lotus's motivations, my impression is that (outside of the TNW prelude phase when she's being hoodwinked by Erra and Balls) she:

1. Wants to protect her loved ones, which includes both the Tenno side of her family, and the Sentient side of her family (Hunhow, Erra)
2. Believes that it is necessary to (effectively) rule the system to stop the various villain factions (Orokin, Grineer, Corpus, Infested, Narmer, Murmur) from threatening the above. (See: "maintaining the balance of power")

When she's got only one or two Archon Shards in TNW, she's not able to think very clearly, so she makes a bunch of dumb decisions, but she still has the same motivations (she's just not as effective at pursuiing those goals as she could be)

In Archon Hunts, she is clearly pursuing her motive of protecting her family (Erra) from the villain factions (Narmer)

In Lotus Eaters... she's dealing with some kind of internal growth and changes that are still ongoing (see: her "daughter, mother, witch" line, which probably connects to Eleanor's "three-faced goddess" line from the 1999 preview), but she still clearly holds the first motive, she's just got weird Void urges going on.

[Alpha545]

58 minutes ago, powerofvoid said:

I would say that every character in Warframe, including your Operator and Drifter, is written as being (almost?) deliberately opaque and mysterious about stuff.

It's... a bit annoying, I'll admit.

As for the Lotus's motivations, my impression is that (outside of the TNW prelude phase when she's being hoodwinked by Erra and Balls) she:

1. Wants to protect her loved ones, which includes both the Tenno side of her family, and the Sentient side of her family (Hunhow, Erra)
2. Believes that it is necessary to (effectively) rule the system to stop the various villain factions (Orokin, Grineer, Corpus, Infested, Narmer, Murmur) from threatening the above. (See: "maintaining the balance of power")

When she's got only one or two Archon Shards in TNW, she's not able to think very clearly, so she makes a bunch of dumb decisions, but she still has the same motivations (she's just not as effective at pursuiing those goals as she could be)

In Archon Hunts, she is clearly pursuing her motive of protecting her family (Erra) from the villain factions (Narmer)

In Lotus Eaters... she's dealing with some kind of internal growth and changes that are still ongoing (see: her "daughter, mother, witch" line, which probably connects to Eleanor's "three-faced goddess" line from the 1999 preview), but she still clearly holds the first motive, she's just got weird Void urges going on.

Thank you, it doesn't quite get me there but that's actually more helpful than I expected because it doesn't seem so inconsistent when written out like that.

That said, it doesn't fix my overall issue: the likely intentionally vagueness. I think part of that is needing it to be possible for the player to project onto their characters and part of it is wanting to provoke theorizing and such from the community. (And part of it is wanting to sound perhaps deeper than things actually are, if I allow Grumpy McAlpha545 to take over for a moment.) Personally I find this incredibly frustrating because I can see the writers' strings on the story and I think they go too far with it, to the point where it obscures the story and the stakes.

I think with the Lotus specifically my issue is that a lot about what exactly happened in the past that made her the Lotus is unclear to me (given the gaslighting/mixed lies and truth that happens when Ballas and Erra get involved), leading to me not being sure if I can interpret early game Lotus as the "true" Lotus. The consequence of that is that I have no base to work with, and as is often the case when gaslighting is involved, that makes interpreting anything else very difficult.
For instance, if the Lotus was made to function as the Lotus by Ballas (and Ballas' motivations are another can of worms) as implied during the Ropalolyst speech then what does anything up to Erra mean? Did she come to care about the Tenno or is that just programming? Couch this in vague language, spread the quests out a bit and my brain just can't follow it.

Anyway, I'll sit on this for a bit, too many thoughts, too little brainpower, I appreciate the response :)

[SquishyWiggles]

Hello Tenno!

I'm not exactly sure what experiece we were supposed to have while in the prologue quest, but I think my experience "skipped" the entire thing.  I put spoiler in the tags because I'm about to describe my experience to see if it was what was supposed to happen.

When I played the prologue, all I did was follow a cat around and thats literally it.  There was no fighting, no npc interaction, literally nothing other than following a cat while listening to a female voice say a few things.  Was that the prologue?

[Alpha545]

Yes, that was the prologue :)

You show up, talk to the Lotus for a few lines, then get tped to the mall where you follow the cat around, then get teleported back and have one or two more lines from the Lotus. You get a mail from Loid afterwards with a tiny bit more info, but the whole thing wasn't really worth a quest imo.

I think most people were disappointed.

[Karyst]

Pager Prime when 

[Karyst]

On 2024-08-25 at 4:53 PM, Alpha545 said:

Much like with Jade Shadows and practically everything that has come before that, it grinds my gears how much Warframe's story/writing/dialogue/worldbuilding seems averse to having people understand it. It's never willing to sit you down an explain what's going, why it's going on, what people want and what they know. I want to get invested in the story, I *want* to like it, but there's this barrier that I can't get through, like the story doesn't actually want me along.

For instance, I still don't know what the Lotus really wants. I feel like every time we get anything from her it's in some sort of mind-altered state. In the early game she is implied to be under some sort of mind-control from Ballas so as to function as the Lotus, then when Ballas shows up she is overtly being affected by something, she seems to alternate between confidently anti-orokin/anti-tenno and *confused*. Then after absorbing a few archon shards she seems to sort-of go back to early game Lotus except that I'm suspicious as to how she reacts to the Operator trying to help. It doesn't give me protective vibes (although I expect that protective vibes *was* what was intended), more 'leave me alone' vibes. (In fact it kinda feels like we bullied her into becoming the Lotus again as a result.)
Anyhow, now during Lotus Eaters she is apparently affected by Wally, so we have the same issue again. In fact she says she want to give us to Wally and I just don't know what to make of it. All of this has left me in a state of "I just don't know :(".

I would like to know: who is the Lotus at this point? What are her motivations? Does she care about the Operator? About the Tenno? About her work as the Lotus?
And for anyone who has an answer to these questions: why do you think that that is the answer?

Almost like she is a space tractor devoid  of sentience, anyways, do you think, that next time you answer pager you'll get teleported to the Soulframe universe?

[Karyst]

On 2024-09-01 at 5:22 PM, SquishyWiggles said:

Hello Tenno!

I'm not exactly sure what experiece we were supposed to have while in the prologue quest, but I think my experience "skipped" the entire thing.  I put spoiler in the tags because I'm about to describe my experience to see if it was what was supposed to happen.

When I played the prologue, all I did was follow a cat around and thats literally it.  There was no fighting, no npc interaction, literally nothing other than following a cat while listening to a female voice say a few things.  Was that the prologue?

You interacted with the NPC called Lotus.

[Alpha545]

On 2024-09-06 at 8:29 PM, Karyst said:

Almost like she is a space tractor devoid  of sentience, anyways, do you think, that next time you answer pager you'll get teleported to the Soulframe universe?

...

Why a space tractor?

[Karyst]

45 minutes ago, Alpha545 said:

...

Why a space tractor?

sentients were designed to terraform the Tau

[Alpha545]

15 minutes ago, Karyst said:

sentients were designed to terraform the Tau

Fair enough :)