New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[Agall]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Which also seem to affect all the status damage in the game, not only the melee one. Don't you value this as a contribution to something you blindly dismiss ?

There's no dead horse left on this specific point, its been pulverized into nothingness.

[dwqrf]

It's funny to imagine that Ash, Ember, Equinox, Citrine, Chroma, Garuda, Gauss, Hydroid, Inaros, Lavos, Nezha, Protea, Titania, Gyre, Vauban, Volt, Grendel, Saryn, Styanax, Voruna and Yareli (and a few of those are helminth, so potentially every frames ; and that without including exalted weapons) could improve their Spell Status Damage with this mod while a main excalibur player calls it useless.

Edited September 5 by dwqrf

[Zaghyr]

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

True. And I might just be plainly mistaken. But the wording makes me think it's not just about Hate heat status, nor Hate status damage, because it shouldn't be such complex and specific description ; and as I understand it, its definitely not worthless and terrible, as title claim it is. But it might be in worst case scenario.

If the mod works how it's worded, specifically working from heat status from any source and amping status damage from any source, then this mod is REALLY strong. Everyone else in this thread can keep saying its overkill or "just use elementalist" if they want, but they haven't used it yet, and they certainly haven't considered every use case for the mod past their fixation on spamming heavy attacks with a maxed out build.

[Zakkhar]

On 2024-09-04 at 4:45 PM, dwqrf said:

Improve every status damage from all sources on target for 20 seconds.

It would be almost great if it was on the timer, not on the target.

[Traumtulpe]

47 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It would be almost great if it was on the timer, not on the target.

If it was a buff on yourself it would be fine. Still pretty boring, but there would be a *point* to it. "Hit something with the Hate every now and then to buff a status proccing gun or ability."

But if you think it's practical to hit an enemy in melee (with a weapon that should oneshot that enemy in the first place) so your long range / AoE guns / abilities can deal more status damage (also any tough enemy is functionally immune to this due to status caps and damage attenuation), you are being ridiculous.

[L3512]

4 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

If the mod works how it's worded, specifically working from heat status from any source and amping status damage from any source, then this mod is REALLY strong. Everyone else in this thread can keep saying its overkill or "just use elementalist" if they want, but they haven't used it yet, and they certainly haven't considered every use case for the mod past their fixation on spamming heavy attacks with a maxed out build.

Scythe heavy attacks do enough damage already, It could maybe be funny on a melee influence build with grouping and a primer but that's a lot of hoops to go through for a similar result (killing stuff) with any level of enemy as we can already do now.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 5 heures, Traumtulpe a dit :

If it was a buff on yourself it would be fine. Still pretty boring, but there would be a *point* to it. "Hit something with the Hate every now and then to buff a status proccing gun or ability."

But if you think it's practical to hit an enemy in melee (with a weapon that should oneshot that enemy in the first place) so your long range / AoE guns / abilities can deal more status damage (also any tough enemy is functionally immune to this due to status caps and damage attenuation), you are being ridiculous.

"Hit something with the Hate every now and then to buff a status proccing gun or ability." 

It's not "a status", it's "all status". Not even just yours.

"enemy is functionally immune to this due to status caps and damage attenuation"

No they aren't.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

"Hit something with the Hate every now and then to buff a status proccing gun or ability." 

It's not "a status", it's "all status". Not even just yours.

"enemy is functionally immune to this due to status caps and damage attenuation"

No they aren't.

Dude. I wrote "a status proccing gun or ability". Not "a gun that procs a status", but a "status proccing gun". And even if you weren't wrong (which you are) it would be an utterly pedantic point.

And yes, this mod does eff all on an enemy with damage attenuation and status cap. This is a fact, you wrongly stating otherwise doesn't change that fact.

Also, can you just think for a second about what you are saying? "If you hit an enemy with the Hate, you won't just increase the Hate's status damage, or your own status damage from guns or abilities, but also the status damage of your team! That's crazy!"

If you hit an enemy with Hate it is a dead enemy. Nothing is being increased.

If your gameplan is to hit every enemy in melee without killing it and then killing it with a gun, half of your gameplan is redundant. You might as well dance a little dance every time before shooting an enemy, same difference.

If you think this mod will make you kill bosses or Necramechs faster, you are simply wrong (again).

Edited September 6 by Traumtulpe

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Dude. I wrote "a status proccing gun or ability". Not "a gun that procs a status", but a "status proccing gun". And even if you weren't wrong (which you are) it would be an utterly pedantic point.

And yes, this mod does eff all on an enemy with damage attenuation and status cap. This is a fact, you wrongly stating otherwise doesn't change that fact.

Also, can you just think for a second about what you are saying? "If you hit an enemy with the Hate, you won't just increase the Hate's status damage, or your own status damage from guns or abilities, but also the status damage of your team! That's crazy!"

If you hit an enemy with Hate it is a dead enemy. Nothing is being increased.

If your gameplan is to hit every enemy in melee without killing it and then killing it with a gun, half of your gameplan is redundant. You might as well dance a little dance every time before shooting an enemy, same difference.

If you think this mod will make you kill bosses or Necramechs faster, you are simply wrong (again).

Okay Hater. Not every one is stuck spamming heavy attacks to be able to play the game. You are in a narrow minded meta of damage and efficiency that's not even fun for yourself.

Nobody talked about hitting every enemy with it.

And yes, it will make killing bosses and Necramechs faster. They still have status cap and attenuation, but more %status damage = more damage.

Prove me otherwise.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, dwqrf said:

And yes, it will make killing bosses and Necramechs faster. They still have status cap and attenuation, but more %status damage = more damage.

Must be fun being wrong all them time, I mean why else would you so stubbornly do it?

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Traumtulpe a dit :

Must be fun being wrong all them time, I mean why else would you so stubbornly do it?

Prove me that I'm wrong then. I'm listening.

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Prove me that I'm wrong then. I'm listening.

What you're really asking is "please explain damage attenuation and status caps to me". Fine.

Enemies with status caps (a maximum of 4 status effects of each type) are, simply speaking, impervious to damage from status effects, with the potential exception of extremely hard hitting instances. Some of these may still be vulnerable to something like a Glaive Prime or Hate heavy attack slash proc. A status cap basically rules out any status damage applied via guns, because each individual instance is too weak to be relevant.

If your status effects deal 500 damage per second, slotting a mod that increases this to 1100 is not worth the slot.

Damage attenuation encompasses a wide variety of effects, and many enemies are subject to several different ones at the same time. The most relevant would be that enemies with a specific kind of attenuation will take less damage for a period of time after taking damage, with the more damage having been taken, the higher the damage reduction.

Essentially, and disregarding bugs and oversights, unless you can oneshot such an enemy, there is a minimum amount of time that the enemy will live, completely regardless of how much damage you actually do. DE on purpose tries to make these enemies HP bar a disguised timer.

For example, try shooting a Lich using an Arquebex, with 4 people at the same time. The Arquebex being one of the highest DPS things in the game. His HP bar will take a big hit, and then stop moving entirely for minutes. You'll deal single digit damage with an effing Arquebex.

[Traumtulpe]

PS some enemies also can't take critical damage from status effects specifically. This automatically means that your status damage is irrelevant in comparison to your direct damage (which can still deal critical damage) - unless you're not critting in any case, where *all* of your damage is irrelevant.

[Traumtulpe]

Oh, and also there's enemies who have 99% DR to status effects while their shield is up (I think). A bit of an edge case, and they mostly just appear in Railjack if I recall correctly.

[Agall]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Dude. I wrote "a status proccing gun or ability". Not "a gun that procs a status", but a "status proccing gun". And even if you weren't wrong (which you are) it would be an utterly pedantic point.

And yes, this mod does eff all on an enemy with damage attenuation and status cap. This is a fact, you wrongly stating otherwise doesn't change that fact.

Also, can you just think for a second about what you are saying? "If you hit an enemy with the Hate, you won't just increase the Hate's status damage, or your own status damage from guns or abilities, but also the status damage of your team! That's crazy!"

If you hit an enemy with Hate it is a dead enemy. Nothing is being increased.

If your gameplan is to hit every enemy in melee without killing it and then killing it with a gun, half of your gameplan is redundant. You might as well dance a little dance every time before shooting an enemy, same difference.

If you think this mod will make you kill bosses or Necramechs faster, you are simply wrong (again).

I'm convinced at this point that @dwqrf is just trolling. They either refuse to understand this concept likely from a lack of experience or are simply being malicious. They must live in this fantasy Warframe universe where Warframe isn't 4 people sort of grouped together all effectively 1 shotting their own sets of enemies where amping any status damage conditionally is beneficial. Dante's Pageflight most of the time will have already primed enemies I'm about to damage which proves the viability of this gimmick when its applied timely. 

 

For any DE employee who might be ready to hit the nuke button on this thread: 

Just give it +heat% damage even if its a little % like 30%, it'll eliminate most of the arguments about its viability. It won't make it OP, and it'll let players without Incarnon inherently proc its effect without taking up another mod slot for heat damage. 

[dwqrf]

Il y a 3 heures, Traumtulpe a dit :

What you're really asking is "please explain damage attenuation and status caps to me". Fine.

Enemies with status caps (a maximum of 4 status effects of each type) are, simply speaking, impervious to damage from status effects, with the potential exception of extremely hard hitting instances. Some of these may still be vulnerable to something like a Glaive Prime or Hate heavy attack slash proc. A status cap basically rules out any status damage applied via guns, because each individual instance is too weak to be relevant.

If your status effects deal 500 damage per second, slotting a mod that increases this to 1100 is not worth the slot.

Damage attenuation encompasses a wide variety of effects, and many enemies are subject to several different ones at the same time. The most relevant would be that enemies with a specific kind of attenuation will take less damage for a period of time after taking damage, with the more damage having been taken, the higher the damage reduction.

Great !

Now, none of that explain that neither Status Cap nor Damage Attentuation totally negate the bonus from increased +%Status Damage.

Yes, it's reduced ; strongly. Sure, I do agree.

But I don't agree that it makes Status Damage inexistant, not worth it, or irrelevant.

I don't. And I'm afraid it's because you like direct damage too much, in your meta, to enjoy seeing things burn, bleed, suffocate in gas, or explode.

And it's fine not to agree. It's fine that this mod doesn't fit -your playstyle-. And I understand it's frustrating for you to see it coming to your weapon and that you can't make any use of it. But realistacally, you said it yourself, in your meta, you already have better mods to slot there for more direct damage. But for people playing differently and abusing Status and their damage ? This is a great mod.

 

il y a 5 minutes, Agall a dit :

I'm convinced at this point that @dwqrf is just trolling. They either refuse to understand this concept likely from a lack of experience or are simply being malicious.

Says the guy that can't read a mod, can't play anything else than Excalibur + Melee, or can't even rank Ostrons past rank 3 in 2k hours... Bruh !

[Agall]

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Says the guy that can't read a mod, can't play anything else than Excalibur + Melee, or can't even rank Ostrons past rank 3 in 2k hours... Bruh !

There's the troll, I knew it.

Snooping around my profile I see?

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, Agall a dit :

There's the troll, I knew it.

Snooping around my profile I see?

Can't you see the potential applications of this mod ?
What ? You guys play something else than Excalibur and Melee ? But why ?


 

[ShortCat]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb dwqrf:

It's funny to imagine that Ash, Ember, Equinox, Citrine, Chroma, Garuda, Gauss, Hydroid, Inaros, Lavos, Nezha, Protea, Titania, Gyre, Vauban, Volt, Grendel, Saryn, Styanax, Voruna and Yareli (and a few of those are helminth, so potentially every frames ; and that without including exalted weapons) could improve their Spell Status Damage with this

You greatly overvalue the buff utility of this augment.

In order for status debuff to work you have to fulfill 2 conditions: 1 - apply heat status; 2 - hit burning enemy with Hate.
The best way to spread augment debuff to everything would be via Melee Imfluence...but then you cannot have heat on Hate to selfproc the status debuff. As such you would either need a primer or an ability that inflicts heat on its own.
If you use Hate to inflict heat as well as status debuff, you can cover only a fraction of the area abilities do. You can deal very high damage within said area, but it kinda defies the idea to use abilities in the first place. In other words you tranform your ability into a melee attack.
If you go the primer route, the gameplay loop would involve: priming with heat <->using an ability with status damage -> hitting an enemy with Hate + MI. This is slow.
If you use an ability that already inflicts heat, you can comfortably use Hate with MI to spread the debuff. However, in this particular case since we are talking about heat damage there is an option of Heat Inherit, which is stronger and can be done on far better primers. Competition in this case is just stronger.

Burning Hate will create some impressive meme builds or be a side grade to elementalist mods.

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, ShortCat a dit :

Burning Hate will create some impressive meme builds.

Yes, it can. And that's fun.
Also, I don't expect to prime a whole room using Melee Influence or hittinh everysingle targets. I meant it's a useful tool on primary target when needed ; and then, you can even have Heat on Hate to make sure it procc if you struggle to apply Heat status from other sources ; and you don't need any build or Incarnon to make it work that way.

il y a 7 minutes, ShortCat a dit :

You greatly overvalue the buff utility of this augment.

I don't overvalue it. I just don't agree it's terrible.

[Agall]

28 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

What ? You guys play something else than Excalibur and Melee ? But why ?

I have the advantage of getting the novelty dopamine hit anytime I get the slight inkling of a unique build. Yesterday, I spent a couple hours building a min-maxed Inaros build designed around some substantial changes made in Jade Shadows. Something I theorized and tested lightly upon the patch's release, but was put on the back burner for a full send min-max until yesterday. I aim to test it in a SP omnia VC today to see if Inaros can actually survive level cap now (spoilers, he probably won't, but I have to try).

28 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Can't you see the potential applications of this mod ?

I'll just leave this here, again, since I answered it days ago:

On 2024-09-04 at 9:01 AM, Agall said:

Ah yes, priming enemies with status damage to already dead enemies. You're not tickling enemies, even level cap ones with Hate Incarnon, especially if you're running a heavy attack setup. These sorts of setups where this Hate augment would benefit are few and niche, nothing Harmony can't probably do better.

On 2024-09-04 at 9:19 AM, Agall said:

The only utility I could see with this is if I tossed it onto my electric only [Melee Influence] setup instead of [Blood Rush] as a support primer. I think it'll still run into the problem of being redundant or simply not performing better than [Melee Elementalist] since that's non-conditional.

Where both @Traumtulpe and I might've wronged you is not stating an assumption we both already knew because we actually test things (we've had healthy battles and disagreements before on a couple of topics). That being the applicability of 'vulnerability to status damage' has been in the game for 9 months at least, made easier to test in Jade Shadows and the elementalist mods.

You really seem to be fixed on the idea that neither of us understood from the beginning that the status damage was like Dante's Pageflight and not like [Melee Elementalist]. It almost seems like you thought this was some big brain observation that none of us saw... 

The arguments against this mod have been levied on practical applicability reasons, not a discussion about how its effect likely works. Priming status damage on targets simply doesn't matter if they're already dead especially one that requires direct player action, which is how the game works right now and what the applicability discourse has been centered around. You've seemingly been the main driver of derailing this discussion around the novelty of status damage, which simply isn't the case, since we have Dante's Pageflight.

This isn't some fringe conclusion, but a reality to anyone who knows how short the time to kill is in the game right now. This game's time to kill is low enough to generally prevent anything other than AoE passive armor strip from being effective in amping player's damage on a target, when we're talking about debuffs applied to a specific target. A potential exception being Dante's Pageflight, which does a pretty good job at applying its effect quickly to any enemy in line of sight. 

[ShortCat]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb dwqrf:

I meant it's a useful tool on primary target when needed ; and then, you can even have Heat on Hate to make sure it procc if you struggle to apply Heat status from other sources ; and you don't need any build or Incarnon to make it work that way.

If you intend to use it as such on primary VIP targets only then why not just use the heavy attack?

That's the reason the augment takes so much flak.

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I just don't agree it's terrible.

But it is.

If you kill with the Hate, Melee Elementalist is (arguably) better. If you don't kill with the Hate, hitting enemies in melee with the Hate is an unnecessary step that wastes your time and makes you less efficient. If you fight a boss the mod does nothing.

That's what you call obsolete, and introducing a new mod that is obsolete from the get-go is terrible.

And that's not even considering that Burning Hate is an augment mod, which comes with certain expectations (which it absolutely doesn't even attempt to live up to, it does absolutely nothing at all that would be appropriate for an augment mod!).

The only thing cool, interesting, thematic, or good in regards to this mod is the name!

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Agall a dit :

A potential exception being Dante's Pageflight, which does a pretty good job at applying its effect quickly to any enemy in line of sight. 

Which is the only other existing +%Status damage debuff in the whole game before this augment. And the augment is the first mod doing so. Why the hate ? This addition to the game could be a way for DE to switch the meta from direct damage to status damage. Would that be so bad for the game ?

As long as this mod is the first of his kind, it make sense it is quite limited and condtionnal. But when expecting more mods coming to the game with +%Status damage vunerability, we could also expect some balance or easier set ups ; as in "When Hate deal damage they become vunerable to %Status damage" without the Heat conditionnal. But it's one step at a time, and we don't know how far it can affect the game yet. Especially when calling it terrible and useless and refusing to see the hundreds of potential applications.

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

refusing to see the hundreds of potential applications

Okay, give me 3. There's hundreds, so you can give me a mere three, right?

Not silly hypotheticals either, actual examples of applications. Like, "I would like to use this weapon or ability to kill the enemies, and hitting them with the Hate beforehand will make my build more efficient in the following way:"

Your turn.