New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, Traumtulpe a dit :

Okay, give me 3. There's hundreds, so you can give me a mere three, right?

Not silly hypotheticals either, actual examples of applications. Like, "I would like to use this weapon or ability to kill the enemies, and hitting them with the Hate beforehand will make my build more efficient in the following way:"

Your turn.

21/57 Warframe have base abilities doing status.

[Drachnyn]

The increase being to all status damage and not just from Hate is kinda pointless. If something is going to take extra damage from status effects Hate is pretty much the first choice I want to hit that target with. This mod would go hard on the Epitah.

[Agall]

23 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Why the hate ? 

Heat conditionnal. 

I ask myself the same thing. Adding a heat conditional to the mod for the Hate doesn't make sense. It has no innate heat damage and the mod also doesn't provide heat damage. The Incarnon's projectiles as we've discussed can function in this, but that would require the user to build around it extensively to function. In that scenario, you're better off just not using it and using builds that are already proven to effectively 1 shot everything, where +status damage% isn't necessary. 

In the current meta, having a conditional status damage bonus, whether for the user or teammates, just simply isn't that useful, especially on the Hate in particular. If it were a glaive type weapon like the Xoris, or even on a firearm, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. But we're not talking about massive AoE capable weapons, we're talking about the Hate, a scythe melee weapon. 

To answer your question in context now, its because DE can do better. Even if it involves just adding elemental heat damage to this mod, it would probably eliminate most of the arguments about it. You'd at least be able to add elemental damage to the Hate that also allows it to innately proc the mod's own effect. In your own words:

On 2024-09-04 at 1:15 PM, dwqrf said:

And that's what I argue about : maybe not everybody play every items for the same reasons :

Let's think about a player in early/mid game with a Ignis and this weapon, and only this mod.

Unless you're trying to argue that this mod shouldn't be changed, but I don't think you are. I think the mod needs heat elemental damage at least to make it useful. Otherwise, you're sacrificing two mod slots to at minimum allow its effect to work for itself reliably, especially for those early/mid game players without Incarnon. At that point, you're likely better off using two other mods and ignoring this augment entirely. 

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

21/57 Warframe have base abilities doing status.

3 examples of how you would use this augment. So far your count is... precisely zero.

Edited September 6 by Traumtulpe

[Agall]

20 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Not silly hypotheticals

To dig this whole discussion back up from like a year ago that I think you're due, you were clearly right about melee weapons sucking in general with our previous battle about SP survival kills/minute (in Void SP Survival missions like Mot specifically)- most significantly because DE also clearly thought so. WitW changed that, arguably making melee too OP with an arcane like [Melee Infuence]. That also included them sort of stealth nerfing Exodia Contagion, which was the entire premise of my argument at the time.

Thought I'd just give you the satisfaction of "you told me so". 

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, Agall a dit :

Unless you're trying to argue that this mod shouldn't be changed, but I don't think you are.

No, I don't argue we should change or not change this mod. That's not my point. My point is only to say : This mod isn't terrible.

It's conditionnal and situationnal, sure, and can be replaced with X or Y in a direct damage build or a melee build. But it's not terrible.
 

il y a 3 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

3 examples of how you would use this augment. So far your count is... precisely zero.

It's not zero, that's only in your mind. I'm not going to make a thesis of all hypothetical to prove to you how to use it.

A third of the Warframes in the game can benefit from this mod to increase their spell status damage, and that's just the base spells, not even considering Exalted weapons and the 500+ weapons.

-

You don't have to like it, in fact, you don't have to understand it, or its potential application. It's fine.
But you can't go around saying "this mod is terrible".
Because it's not based on anything else than your opinion, excluding a lot of contexts because they don't feel relavant to your gameplay.

You can freely go around and say "I dont like this mod and I'm not going to use it and I wish DE would make another direct damage augment for Hate" which would be a fair and respectable argument.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

Thought I'd just give you the satisfaction

Thank you. Seems like forever ago by now.

Tennokai, Melee Influence, and slam changes sure have been great. Though Melee Influence would still have been great at 15m radius, and Melee Vortex should have been 100% chance.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I'm not going to make a thesis of all hypothetical to prove to you how to use it.

That's not what I asked of you. I asked you to give me three specific examples of how you would utilize this augment. Since, you know, apparently there are hundreds of them in your head. Unless you lied. You didn't lie, did you?

Your count is still zero by the way, in case you lost track.

[Agall]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Melee Vortex should have been 100% chance.

Yeah, vortex to me is hit or miss. On my Dual Ichor setup with my unicorn of a riven (toxin/ele/cold/-eff in the right order) that's toxin+magnetic, sometimes it doesn't proc it at only 45% or so. If it were like 55% or higher, I think it would be perfectly viable.

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

No, I don't argue we should change or not change this mod. That's not my point. My point is only to say : This mod isn't terrible.

Then we'll just have to simply agree to disagree, even if its because we define 'terrible' differently for a Nightwave augment.

At the least, would you agree that it would be useful and within reason for this mod to have heat elemental damage innately to it?

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

unicorn of a riven (toxin/ele/cold/-eff in the right order)

The order doesn't matter, elements in the same slot always default to Heat first, Cold second, Electricity third, and Toxin last.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Traumtulpe a dit :

That's not what I asked of you. I asked you to give me three specific examples of how you would utilize this augment. Since, you know, apparently there are hundreds of them in your head. Unless you lied. You didn't lie, did you?

Your count is still zero by the way, in case you lost track.

No, I didnt lie, but you can't even read a mod so I don't think my time trying to explain anything to you has any value.

Let's imagine I'm playing Dante with any weapon, and I shoot a strong target, and WordWarden procc Heat, and also have my 3+3 already written, so Tragedy is ready to cast. Just a swing of Hate and my cast of Tragedy will do improved damage. Definitely not hard to set up.

[Agall]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

The order doesn't matter, elements in the same slot always default to Heat first, Cold second, Electricity third, and Toxin last.

In my experience, the elements on a riven combine from bottom up, something I fight with on some multi element rivens. Most of it involving heat/electric rivens I roll and really hoping the heat electric is above the heat, otherwise it combines to corrosive+heat and not gas+electric with a leading [Primed Fever Strike]. A way around that is to put 60/60 mods in front of it, then the riven will just augment the existing combination of elements set by those 60/60 mods.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Agall said:

In my experience, the elements on a riven combine from bottom up, something I fight with on some multi element rivens. Most of it involving heat/electric rivens I roll and really hoping the heat electric is above the heat, otherwise it combines to corrosive+heat and not gas+electric with a leading [Primed Fever Strike]. A way around that is to put 60/60 mods in front of it, then the riven will just augment the existing combination of elements set by those 60/60 mods.

Oh I had no idea about that, I suppose my rivens always were in the right order so far then. Thanks.

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, Agall a dit :

At the least, would you agree that it would be useful and within reason for this mod to have heat elemental damage innately to it?

I could agree that anything you can think of could be a valuable opinion ; yes. You have the right to emit any thought of possible changes, to your liking.

-

Can you agree that imposing an opinion on others is a bad thing ?

Can you agree that accepting reality is better than living in a fantasy ?

[Agall]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

I could agree that anything you can think of could be a valuable opinion ; yes. You have the right to emit any thought of possible changes, to your liking.

-

Can you agree that imposing an opinion on others is a bad thing ?

Can you agree that accepting reality is better than living in a fantasy ?

Answering a question with a question?

[Traumtulpe]

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I don't think my time trying to explain anything to you has any value.

Let's imagine I'm playing Dante with any weapon, and I shoot a strong target, and WordWarden procc Heat, and also have my 3+3 already written, so Tragedy is ready to cast. Just a swing of Hate and my cast of Tragedy will do improved damage. Definitely not hard to set up.

Now that is something we both agree on, 100%.

Let me recap, you're going to cast Tragedy to kill a "strong target", and also Dante's 3 two times to get Tragedy, and you shoot that target to fuel Tragedy with a strong DoT, and also you swing at the target with the Hate for another 120% extra, is that right?

You still need to specify what gun you shoot and with which DoT's, and what that enemy is specifically.

And also why you don't simply kill it with the Hate, when you hit it with it anyways. Also why your gun doesn't kill the target in one shot.

[OuroborosGhost]

On 2024-09-04 at 7:16 AM, Traumtulpe said:

There are three ways to use this mod:

1) Prime enemies with Heat, then attack with the Hate as usual.

2) Mod the Hate to cause mainly Heat procs and use as normal otherwise.

3) Hit enemies with the Hate to increase the damage of Heat procs from other weapons.

Quite frankly, 2) is just a straight debuff. It is out of the question, in large part due to the available Arcanes.

In the case of 1), the "augment" is merely a 120% status damage stat - how is this worthy of being an augment mod exactly? It doesn't do anything other mods don't already do (arguably better).

3) is ridiculous. Doubly so because enemies where you might even consider doing such a silly thing have a status cap of 4, meaning it isn't a viable tactic (120% of 0 is 0).

In summary, the absolute best case scenario for the mod is that it provides a flat 120% status damage increase, given that the player uses a primer. Do you believe that players are so starved for mods as to want to put a mod that says "120% extra status damage" on the Hate? I mean, you *could* do it. The mod is technically usable.

Do you seriously think "120% extra status damage" is what an augment mod should read as?? There is nothing being augmented here. There is no change to playstyle, there is no flavour (aside from the name of the mod!), it's just a boring and not even very good stat!

Look, I get it, the Hate is already very powerful and you didn't want to make it even more powerful, so you gave it a garbage augment mod on purpose. But for heavens sake at least make it somehow interesting!

u took time to write all that but not to read the mod =( 
dante>final verse>pageflight seems like a close comparison. they both induce _Vulnerability_ 🤯  


 

[dwqrf]

il y a 16 minutes, Agall a dit :

Answering a question with a question?

I answered the question, then I asked questions. It's a conversation.
 

il y a 15 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

And also why you don't simply kill it with the Hate, when you hit it with it anyways. Also why your gun doesn't kill the target in one shot.

Ha. Yes. Okay. It's a waste of time to try to talk to you because anyways : "why don't you just play like me and one shot enemies because that's the only way to play the game."

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, OuroborosGhost said:

u took time to write all that but not to read the mod =( 
dante>final verse>pageflight seems like a close comparison. they both induce _Vulnerability_ 🤯  

Pageflight seems like a very, very far comparison. It is a passively occurring effect, whereas you need to hit the enemy with your melee weapon to apply the mod.🤯

[Karyst]

16 hours ago, L3512 said:

Scythe heavy attacks do enough damage already, It could maybe be funny on a melee influence build with grouping and a primer but that's a lot of hoops to go through for a similar result (killing stuff) with any level of enemy as we can already do now.

Such as hp% jat kittag

[Karyst]

14 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I answered the question, then I asked questions. It's a conversation.
 

Ha. Yes. Okay. It's a waste of time to try to talk to you because anyways : "why don't you just play like me and one shot enemies because that's the only way to play the game."

Can we just agree that this mod was made for Dystopia 

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Ha. Yes. Okay. It's a waste of time to try to talk to you because anyways :

There is no enemy in the game (that your scenario works on) that the Hate doesn't kill in one hit. And you do not want to give any specifics because you know that.

This gun procs both a massive bleed, and it has Rifle Elementalist on it (none of which you can see, because the toughest enemy I can spawn in the Simulacrum dies 200 times over to the comparatively small direct hit damage). I don't think I'll need to hit it with the Hate to get another 120% status damage. In fact that would simply be a bad play, slowing me down:

And this is what the Hate does, unbuffed:

Yeah, we absolutely need more damage, right. Let's buff ourself, cast 3 abilities on the same target, proc it up with a primer, and then prime it some more with the Hate before we finally shoot at it for the kill. Makes perfect sense. Why not spend 20 seconds per enemy that you could kill in one hit?

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Yeah, we absolutely need more damage, right. Let's buff ourself, cast 3 abilities on the same target, proc it up with a primer, and then prime it some more with the Hate before we finally shoot at it for the kill. Makes perfect sense. Why not spend 20 seconds per enemy that you could kill in one hit?

Because not everybody is a meta slave.

[Karyst]

8 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because not everybody is a meta slave.

New nosam cutter meta on the horizon?

[Karyst]

12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because not everybody is a meta slave.

I like how he said that that's what hate does unbuffed while having two rows of buffs