DPS from primarily damaging abilities is too low late game

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, AsffluffyZ said:

Absolute point that enthrall, mind control, and nekros 4 should all have a level multiplier added to them like Xaku. Lest you needed to armor strip every single enemy.

even with armor strip they all suck at doing dmg both cause of the discrepancy between enemy base dmg at basically any given level and their hp and also cause their AI sucks at dealing with other enemies

extra clear with nekros and nyx who have built in armor strip in their kits(even if nyx's sucks)

[Stormandreas]

16 hours ago, TKDancer said:

 

If you honestly believe that abilities that do damage, were designed primarily to be DPS abilities and only that, then you're wrong.

 

[TKDancer]

5 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

If you honestly believe that abilities that do damage, were designed primarily to be DPS abilities and only that, then you're wrong.

nice backtrack

anyways:

On 2024-09-05 at 1:42 PM, TKDancer said:

i dont think you people understand that a lot of DAMAGING abilities have been relegated to CC or utility due to DE being incredibly lax with making abilities, specially for older frames, scale with content

if you genuinely think those abilities shouldnt have dmg as their main focus you should still be advocating for them to be completely reworked from the ground up and/or have their augments that actually give them some reason to be used be made base-kit

[Famecans]

I hope DE is using a page scraping with chatGPT to find forum comments with possible solutions to these problems, so I'll comment here as if I were being seen by the AI.

The problem with ability damage lies in the frame mod slot system which is extremely limited compared to weapons.

Note that frame abilities do not have a list of meaningful statistics like attack rate, critical chance, status chance, etc... and there are also no mods and slots to activate or add these new stats, this means that a warframe ability needs dozens of mod slots to deal damage equivalent to a weapon that has several multiplicative stats enhanced by only eight mod slots.

The solution here is to rework the frame mod system, but this is extremely complex because many abilities are rooted in game synergies, reworking this will expose a multitude of bugs and problems to manually fix. Another possible way to solve this is make any similar the exalted system or linked mods on equipment within loadout.

Edited Friday at 10:48 PM by Famecans

[KRYPTR0N]

On 2024-09-05 at 3:01 PM, Zakkhar said:

Excelent, you picked zero nuking abilities/frames.

wym nuking abilities/frames? Abilities that were made to nuke or ones that actually nuke

[KRYPTR0N]

On 2024-09-05 at 3:18 PM, vixenpixel said:

Also alot of the examples are quite strong. What do you mean Banshee's everything? Sonar lets you hit dmg cap with literally any weapon. Only her 4th is terrible and sure yeah it's a terrible nuke in spite of trying to be a nuke. 

I agree that alot of stuff is improperly balanced but not every frame has to have nuking capabilities. I love frost. You think he should also nuke stuff ontop of freezing, shredding and gating on one ability? Just put breach surge on.

It wouldnt break the game or anything. KPM and TTK wise it doent really matter if you use your weapons or abilities to kill, especially compared to melee and incarnon weapons.

It really just about the feeling that it's your warframe doing the killing instead of the supercharged AK-47 in your hand. Seeing a fireball scorch an enemy to death rather than a bullet is much more satisfying

And the thing about frost freezing everything. Shivering contagion and duplex bond makes him almost obsolete apart from his crit augment and globe

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

wym nuking abilities/frames? Abilities that were made to nuke or ones that actually nuke

Well, Saryn is still doing her thing, and so is Mesa. Protea's turrets go brrrr ; and Dante still breaks the game when set up properly. You know, there is plenty of really big damage abilities that work just fine.

All the abilities do few things ; and that's the combinaison of things that matter ; not just the damage part.

You just got to set up the context for everything to thrive. And Warframe is more about gunplay than damaging spell casting. "Warriors of guns and blade" ; you know ?

Of course, the remake of -Armor/+Health unbalanced a lot of things. That's true. But old things take dust when new things come to life. And that's okay.
 

il y a 2 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

especially compared to melee and incarnon weapons.

Extremely endgame conditionnal and expensive weapons are obvioulsy obscenely strong ; but they are even stronger when buffed with abilities and shooting debuffed enemies. You can't compare a unaugmented unmodded 1st spell from a starting frame to such after New War/SP Exclusive content.

[KRYPTR0N]

On 2024-09-05 at 4:46 PM, insanitybit said:

Some of those are utility skills with damage as a bonus. For example, Volt's 4 does little damage but it also provides shields + CC, so it's unclear if it *should* do scaling damage.

I think if you're going to make this claim you need to do a much better job of justifying these.

Heck no. Discharge has to justify what business it has not doing damage at higher levels. spending a 100 energy just to CC some non-oveguard having bozo isnt a flex

Radial blind: 20m CC opening enemies up to finishers. 50 energy

Breach surge; 18m CC that has more damage potential and can affect (although very sligthly) Eximus units. 50 energy 

Tentacle swarm: 15m CC with yet again, more damage potential and does what discharge can do but better. Render affected enemies completely useless for the entire 20 second duration, and approaching enemies get caught too. 50 energy

 

these are easy

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Discharge has to justify what business it has not doing damage at higher levels. spending a 100 energy just to CC some non-oveguard having bozo isnt a flex

Volt has a stacking passive, speed, attack speed, impetrable defense walls, overshield generation, squad buffs. Thank god he doesn't do as much AoE damage as Saryn too.

il y a 3 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Radial blind: 20m CC opening enemies up to finishers. 50 energy

Excalibur doesn't have anything to survive except his blind and parry. Thank god he got damage to compensate with execute and stealth multipliers.

il y a 4 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Breach surge; 18m CC that has more damage potential and can affect (although very sligthly) Eximus units. 50 energy

Wisp doesn't have any damaging abilities except the green motes and the status spraying scaling ultimate. Thank got Breach Surge does awesome AoE bouncing damage.
 

il y a 5 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Tentacle swarm: 15m CC with yet again, more damage potential and does what discharge can do but better. Render affected enemies completely useless for the entire 20 second duration, and approaching enemies get caught too. 50 energy

Hydroid has a lot of abilities that he can combine to deal a lot of cc, status, and damage over big zones, and buffing himseld. He is balanced with his rework, you cannot take only part of his kit on the side without considering the rest.

And that's the case for most frames.

Context.
 

[KRYPTR0N]

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Well, Saryn is still doing her thing, and so is Mesa. Protea's turrets go brrrr ; and Dante still breaks the game when set up properly. You know, there is plenty of really big damage abilities that work just fine.

All the abilities do few things ; and that's the combinaison of things that matter ; not just the damage part.

You just got to set up the context for everything to thrive. And Warframe is more about gunplay than damaging spell casting. "Warriors of guns and blade" ; you know ?

Of course, the remake of -Armor/+Health unbalanced a lot of things. That's true. But old things take dust when new things come to life. And that's okay.
 

 

Well ofcourse they didnt talk about those because they actually do well and scale well. Mesa;s regulators are exalted weapons, protea literally has a built in combo counter for the artillery and dante has the excuse of being a newer frame(i dont play saryn so idk what she does.)

I love using weapons as much as the next guy. But being able to throw a lightning bolt into the mix and having it do noticable damage. Or, god forbid, doing good damage to bosses with abilities, would undeniably be a net positive for the game. warframe has turned from looking cool while doing damage, to doing damage while looking cool

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Or, god forbid, doing good damage to bosses with abilities, would undeniably be a net positive for the game.

Infinite Energy generation, absence of colddown and little to no aiming required disagree that would be a net positive for the game.

[KRYPTR0N]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Volt has a stacking passive, speed, attack speed, impetrable defense walls, overshield generation, squad buffs. Thank god he doesn't do as much AoE damage as Saryn too.

Excalibur doesn't have anything to survive except his blind and parry. Thank god he got damage to compensate with execute and stealth multipliers.

Wisp doesn't have any damaging abilities except the green motes and the status spraying scaling ultimate. Thank got Breach Surge does awesome AoE bouncing damage.
 

Hydroid has a lot of abilities that he can combine to deal a lot of cc, status, and damage over big zones, and buffing himseld. He is balanced with his rework, you cannot take only part of his kit on the side without considering the rest.

And that's the case for most frames.

Context.
 

The context was energy cost and discharge being an expensive CC that you cant even recast untill the duration runs out iirc. hell. there are even weapons that can CC up to par with discharge and the only thing it costs is ammo.

Also radial blind and breach surge are helminth so "context" doesnt matter for those

 

Edit: What do you mean by excalibur having a parry

Edited Friday at 12:10 PM by KRYPTR0N
excaliburt

[KRYPTR0N]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Infinite Energy generation, absence of colddown and little to no aiming required disagree that would be a net positive for the game.

I dont need them to nuke the entire map or oneshot bosses, but many of these damage abilities are useless without whatever augment they have. The only off the top of my head that actually does something noticable is hydroid's tempest barrage because it has corrosive, so with a few casts you can kill SP units relatively quickly(kinda not really), and even that need its augment to really put some pain in. I'm arguing these because i don't want to be locked into the gunplay/melee playstyle. I want the option (notice keyword: option) to throw some abilities at enemies without losing a helluva chunk of dps. A good balance between utility and damage, that's what these ability are supposed to represent. But from level 100 and up they turn into just utility, If that.

[dwqrf]

il y a 11 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

Also radial blind and breach surge are helminth so "context" doesnt matter for those

They do, as they are effective within a kit and with the right build. You cannot run a negative range chroma and use Radial Blind, for example. Breach surge is cast twice when using wisp shadow too, allowing for twice the effect and the range.

il y a 3 minutes, KRYPTR0N a dit :

I don't want to be locked into the gunplay/melee playstyle. 
[...]
But from level 100 and up they turn into just utility, If that.

Yes, Warframe's Meta is actually really biased onto weapon gameplay. That's the actual reality. You might want something else, and argue for better damaging spell ; it's an opinion that I shall respect ; but you can't dismiss that some abilities do a really huge amount of damage (when set up correctly) ; while most of them do a fair amount of damage in low level, and scale in late game with utility, giving more depth to frames and builds that superficially thought.

Warframe's Meta was once really extremely heavily spell based ; but that changed with more challenging content requiring gunplay, and added content like galvanised mods and Incarnons and such. You missed the old meta, it wasn't that great when one player pressed 4 and went to have a coffee, a couple of cigarettes, and a walk for 20mn only to find the whole star chart still burning/bleeding/quaking to death when coming back.

[insanitybit]

38 minutes ago, KRYPTR0N said:

Heck no. Discharge has to justify what business it has not doing damage at higher levels. spending a 100 energy just to CC some non-oveguard having bozo isnt a flex

 

Well I guess we just disagree on this philosophically. You're advocating for a change, a change requires work, and work, to me, requires justification.

Like I said before, if you want to advocate for change I'd suggest doing the work of sitting down and justifying it. Otherwise I don't think devs are going to be convinced of anything.

FWIW I would also like more enemy scaling on various abilities, but which abilities, why, and how, are something that requires justification imo.

Edited Friday at 12:20 PM by insanitybit

[KRYPTR0N]

28 minutes ago, insanitybit said:

Well I guess we just disagree on this philosophically. You're advocating for a change, a change requires work, and work, to me, requires justification.

Like I said before, if you want to advocate for change I'd suggest doing the work of sitting down and justifying it. Otherwise I don't think devs are going to be convinced of anything.

That's what the rest of the post was for.

Really. the only reason i would use discharge over radial blind is because it looks cooler with all the lightning chaining between enemies. Because when you compare the two at their core, clearly the one that can be recast, costs half the energy, can be slotted on any other warframe and has a higher CC duration i better

 

Edit: Change and work dont require justification if keeping the status quo got us in this mess in the first place. If anything, not making changes requires more justification. As a matter of fact, alot of abilities actually got changes in the form of augments which reinforced the sacrifice of damage in favor of utility. But utility on those abilities doesnt matter that much when you can, 1 nuke an entire room with weapons and abilities alike without so much as glancing at the so called utility ability, and 2 have dedicated utility abilities, some of which are even helminthable

Edited Friday at 12:56 PM by KRYPTR0N
kuva hek

[TKDancer]

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Volt has a stacking passive

its up to a flat 1000 dmg my man what are you talking about

its biggest use is for fishing without having to swap spears

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, TKDancer a dit :

its up to a flat 1000 dmg my man what are you talking about

Imagine if it could affect your abilities, and your weapons, could crit, and if Volt had a bonus critical damage ability. That'd be a wonderful world.

[TKDancer]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Imagine if it could affect your abilities, and your weapons, could crit, and if Volt had a bonus critical damage ability. That'd be a wonderful world.

the effect on abilities is almost none at anything above start of star chart since it doesnt scale, and hell, the passive's bonus only affects the first enemy discharge hits even, wowie!

it being able to crit on weapons also doesnt matter since it isnt affected by base dmg modifiers, eletric elemental mods or multishot, tho it is affected by sniper combo, wowie!

the dmg gain on that passive for both abilities and weapons is basically negligible specially considering how it is build up

stop trying to play devil's advocate for bad outdated design while trying to sound like a smart-ass, it just makes you look like a fool

Edited Friday at 05:34 PM by TKDancer

[dwqrf]

il y a 42 minutes, TKDancer a dit :

the effect on abilities is almost none at anything above start of star chart since it doesnt scale, and hell, the passive's bonus only affects the first enemy discharge hits even, wowie!

it being able to crit on weapons also doesnt matter since it isnt affected by base dmg modifiers, eletric elemental mods or multishot, tho it is affected by sniper combo, wowie!

the dmg gain on that passive for both abilities and weapons is basically negligible specially considering how it is build up

stop trying to play devil's advocate for bad outdated design while trying to sound like a smart-ass, it just makes you look like a fool

Yeah okay. You cheerypicked two words in a whole sentence, and I'm the devil's advocate. Right.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, dwqrf dijo:

Imagine if it could affect your abilities, and your weapons, could crit, and if Volt had a bonus critical damage ability. That'd be a wonderful world.

Volt's passive is useless, that's a fact, I'll be a Volt main but I'm not going to glorify what is clearly bad in every way.

Edited Friday at 06:31 PM by --Leyenda-yight6

[TKDancer]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

 

you have issues, log off

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, TKDancer a dit :

you have issues, log off

Maybe, but no, thank you.

[KRYPTR0N]

What in the hell happened here

[TKDancer]

24 minutes ago, KRYPTR0N said:

What in the hell happened here

average dwqrf interaction