Burning hate should work on Harmony

[vixenpixel]

My suggestion is that the mod would work on both Jade's and Stalker's weapons. Feels like it would make a lot of sense if the augment worked on harmony since those two weapons are like a pair, in the sense that Jade and Stalker are a pair.

[Agall]

42 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

My suggestion is that the mod would work on both Jade's and Stalker's weapons. Feels like it would make a lot of sense if the augment worked on harmony since those two weapons are like a pair, in the sense that Jade and Stalker are a pair.

[Traumtulpe]

Don't matter, mod is trash either way. Could be available on all weapons, then it may be okay on 2 or 3. I could see me using it on the Nepheri.

[vixenpixel]

37 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Don't matter, mod is trash either way. Could be available on all weapons, then it may be okay on 2 or 3. I could see me using it on the Nepheri.

It's definitely not trash but they released this thing right after melee elementalist and so if you use burning hate in place of melee elementalist it's marginally better. Mostly because hate has incarnon mode that applies heat, so you don't have to mod to make this straight up better than melee elementalist. But still its just marginally better.

[Traumtulpe]

35 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

if you use burning hate in place of melee elementalist it's marginally better. Mostly because hate has incarnon mode that applies heat, so you don't have to mod to make this straight up better than melee elementalist. But still its just marginally better.

Absolutely not. How many Heat procs do you need (applied by the Hate, quite possibly the strongest melee weapon right now in terms of damage) to kill any one target? If the answer is 2, then Burning Hate provides an average of 60% damage increase to your procs. If it is 3 then the damage increase is 80%.

If your answer is more than three, then you are lying. Melee Elementalist gives you 90%. 90% > 80%.

Edited Wednesday at 05:40 PM by Traumtulpe

[Agall]

42 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

It's definitely not trash but they released this thing right after melee elementalist and so if you use burning hate in place of melee elementalist it's marginally better. Mostly because hate has incarnon mode that applies heat, so you don't have to mod to make this straight up better than melee elementalist. But still its just marginally better.

Only if the mod is already redundant, the build I run makes nice use of the new augment, but its not a standard build for the Hate. That build uses blast+electric and no +CC%, which affords it a mod slot for [Melee Elementalist] as a placeholder until I got [Burning Hate]. I use my Verglas Prime to proc heat for the effect, or at worse, my amp which has very reliable heat status procs.

 

6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Absolutely not. How many Heat procs do you need (applied by the Hate, quite possibly the strongest melee weapon right now in terms of damage) to kill any one target? If the answer is 2, then Burning Hate provides an average of 60% damage increase to your procs. If it is 3 then the damage increase is 80%.

If your answer is more than three, then you are lying. Melee Elementalist gives you 90%. 90% > 80%.

It really depends on the build. I'm making quite good use of the augment in my build, but I do trade it for extra +CD% which is overall marginal in the build.

At least for me, it makes me feel more useful in a group against anything that doesn't get 1 shotted. I still think it should have +heat% innately, enough to at least be a drop in replacement for the +90% heat mod.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

At least for me, it makes me feel more useful in a group against anything that doesn't get 1 shotted.

Well obviously, the mod does literally nothing, zero effect, if you oneshot the enemy. You need to first apply a Heat proc, and then you need to hit the target with the Hate (and the mod will still do absolutely nothing even if you proc a status effect with that hit), and then on the third hit the mod increases status damage by 120% (but not for procs that were already present before that hit!).

[Agall]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Well obviously, the mod does literally nothing, zero effect, if you oneshot the enemy. You need to first apply a Heat proc, and then you need to hit the target with the Hate (and the mod will still do absolutely nothing even if you proc a status effect with that hit), and then on the third hit the mod increases status damage by 120% (but not for procs that were already present before that hit!).

My genocidal Verglas Prime setup does a solid job at applying heat to most things, especially with the [Contagious Bond] mod.

I imagine [Melee Influence] procs this effect on those targets as well. So far, its just so difficult to control because things don't live long enough for me to tell, especially with how much damage my Verglas Prime does. I could likely control for it, but I just haven't found the time or care when I do have time. I believe [Melee Influence] is coded as a melee attack for everything except Dual Ichor's clouds, which can still proc [Melee Vortex].

I haven't done a controlled test to see how impactful the mod is on things like Necramechs, Archons, and the Murmur boss. Gaz confirming the thing does in fact work leads me to believe it functions properly in these scenarios for myself and teammates. That alone is worth it for me since the build is already overkill for even level cap enemies. 821M Slash Dash initial hit prior to changing out [Melee Elementalist] for this augment tells me the build is more than capable of burning a mod slot for the extra utility.

I just still wish it had +heat% to save myself a mod slot and make the augment better for non-Incarnon builds. It also just makes sense and won't make it OP but be a drop in replacement for a +heat% mod at a minimum. Then it'll at least be useful in any build that benefits from +heat% as a drop in replacement mod, even if the effect is 95% of the time unnecessary. It would then be on the same tier as some Archon Mod bonuses in utility.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

I believe [Melee Influence] is coded as a melee attack for everything except Dual Ichor's clouds, which can still proc [Melee Vortex].

I haven't done a controlled test to see how impactful the mod is on things like Necramechs, Archons, and the Murmur boss.

Yes, but that is not the issue. If you proc Heat with a primer, and then spread, via Melee Influence, a huge Electricity proc on those enemies, the Electricity proc will not be increased by Burning Hate. Because you need to hit burning enemies with the Hate first, and only after that, on the next attack, the damage of only new procs will be increased.

You *need* to hit enemies twice with the Hate to have *any effect at all* from the mod on any procs caused by the Hate. Even if you prime with Heat first.

The mod may or may not work on Necramechs, depending on how the (inconsistent) damage attenuation they have works, but it definitely does not work on Archons nor the Murmur boss, since both of them have the "timer" damage attenuation - meaning if you deal more damage the boss simply gets more damage resistance in return.

[Agall]

17 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Yes, but that is not the issue. If you proc Heat with a primer, and then spread, via Melee Influence, a huge Electricity proc on those enemies, the Electricity proc will not be increased by Burning Hate. Because you need to hit burning enemies with the Hate first, and only after that, on the next attack, the damage of only new procs will be increased.

You *need* to hit enemies twice with the Hate to have *any effect at all* from the mod on any procs caused by the Hate. Even if you prime with Heat first.

The mod may or may not work on Necramechs, depending on how the (inconsistent) damage attenuation they have works, but it definitely does not work on Archons nor the Murmur boss, since both of them have the "timer" damage attenuation - meaning if you deal more damage the boss simply gets more damage resistance in return.

I agree, but that's not the end of the world for me, in what's almost exclusively a light attack build. I tennokai when available or heat attack on demos/big enemies, especially if I have enough energy to Slash Dash my way back to 12x220 given it provides 48 combo per hit (96 if I have a str/range fissure bonus). 

The effect is so niche that it needs some sort of stat bonus to at least make it a drop in upgrade, and I don't think I've seen any disagreement on that. +heat% making the most sense to at least allow the base form to proc its own effect, at least +90% heat too so its competitive with the other mods (I think +120% would make sense).

[Quest]

nevermind

Edited Thursday at 01:48 AM by Quest

[vixenpixel]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Absolutely not. How many Heat procs do you need (applied by the Hate, quite possibly the strongest melee weapon right now in terms of damage) to kill any one target? If the answer is 2, then Burning Hate provides an average of 60% damage increase to your procs. If it is 3 then the damage increase is 80%.

If your answer is more than three, then you are lying. Melee Elementalist gives you 90%. 90% > 80%.

Your math is very confusing. Also hate does slash and heat and if you do any dmg with your abilities that has a dot or a companion then that would also increase by 120% if i read ability correct.

[vixenpixel]

I think the augment feels a little bit lukewarm. I would have liked something extra or that it increases dots already applied. The fact it doesn't feels like an oversight tbh. I will say though exo gokstad enemies died in no time with very little effort and no frame buffs or anything like that. But a slam build basically one shots them with gas.. their armour got nerfed after all. 

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, vixenpixel said:

Your math is very confusing. Also hate does slash and heat and if you do any dmg with your abilities that has a dot or a companion then that would also increase by 120% if i read ability correct.

The mod increases status damage by 120%, but it doesn't do this for 100% of the procs. If half of the procs are increased, then the damage increase really only is 60% total, if 2/3 are increased, then it is 80%.

Why not all procs are increased I already explained.

Melee Elementalist is 90% increase to all procs (and 60% heavy attack speed, which is *really* good on the extremely slow heavy attacks of scythes).

Also, please get real, you are *not*, absolutely not ever, going to prime enemies with your primer, then walk up to them and hit them with the Hate, and *then*, in melee range with your Hate in hand, kill the enemy with some sort of DoT ability. That would be just silly. If you don't understand why, have a look at this picture:

[vixenpixel]

I am well aware that enemies die too fast for that idea to pan out. However protea is a fun example as she would be the quintessential frame to passively apply heat stacks with abilities as you strike them with your melee. Furthermore there's alot of ways to apply heat with primer, hound, diriga, verglas. 

I totally agree the augment should be better probably by having a second stat on it in addition. Or they could rework it to increase dmg of existing dots. 

But i refuse to let your 12x heavy attacks act like the end of a nuanced discussion just because you are acting like a Mr Grumpy.

You are implying that since heavy attack kill the enemy by doing the most damage it is the most efficient kill method. That is absurd.  My slam magistar one shots the room faster than your hate does. So by your definition the hate would be trash i guess. 

Or we can have a nuanced discussion and skip the implied condescension. Mr Grumpy im grateful you are discussing this with me. You have alot of input. Just be aware once person realizes your premise is "biggest dmg numbers" your arguments drop in value to someone looking for more.

Im curious if hate can do interesting stuff by applying a debuff field. You just want to chop down enemies as quickly as possible. 

I think we can all agree Burning hate is not great. 

I think it has some potential but due to the nature of how it applies the debuff it would be very niche.

Edited Thursday at 09:43 AM by vixenpixel

[vixenpixel]

To extrapolate a bit on my previous post. I look for interesting interactions in the hopes of finding new unique gameplay niches. The Shedu is a perfect example of a weapon that does not survive on it's own. The damage is subpar. But the mechanics are amazing. So if you buff it significantly you are left with ridiculously broken result. 

Treating the Hate like a simple heavy attack weapon is equivalent to equipping the reaper and doing the same. That's not what I'm looking for.  I need different.

In the interest of versatility, I'd like Burning Hate on Harmony. I think it would fit the lore. What would be even better would be if the augment applied the debuff on existing dots. Currently the mod doesn't do what is advertised. 

[dwqrf]

Harmony Augment : [Burning Love] : On hitting enemies affected by Cold status with Harmony, enemies become vulnerable to +120% status duration.

[vixenpixel]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Harmony Augment : [Burning Love] : On hitting enemies affected by Cold status with Harmony, enemies become vulnerable to +120% status duration.

Great suggestion! <3

How about Loving Harmony? Every time you kill something with it, it makes a shower of pink hearts that inflict random status proccs in a 10m cone. It would be amazing.

I do feel like DE is doing us all a disservice by focusing on one weapon with these augments, however. I understand unique weapons like ocucor or catabolyst. But would be much nicer if it was all scythes or something similar like that. Although maybe they don't want to create a playstyle for a weapon type too much. Imagine if they made all swords good for one thing and 2handed swords are good for something else.

On that note, when 2 handed incarnon sword??? Vitrica Incarnon could be cool. Or even Galatine. We have 2 hammers. We need more obscure weapons. What about Sparring? Hirudo Incarnon would actually be sick. It's already pretty good, plus life steal on it. Crazy.

But that's besides the point... XD

[dwqrf]

il y a 10 minutes, vixenpixel a dit :

On that note, when 2 handed incarnon sword???

Dark Split Sword Incarnon !

[Agall]

On 2024-09-26 at 6:48 AM, dwqrf said:

Dark Split Sword Incarnon !

Anyways,

Here's an idea about both of these augments I thought of:

Why not just make both [Unseen Dread] and [Burning Hate] uniquely equippable on any Stalker weapons? AKA, you could equip either augment on Dread, Despair, and Hate, but only one or the other?