Fleeting Expertise Is Too Good Not To Use, And Game Breaking. (With Math)

[Kilzoth]

Hello All, 

   I've been playing Warframe a few weeks now, and it's a very fun game. However I have recently discovered Fleeting Expertise, and been using it on every frame regardless of it's downside. Many abilities do not scale with Duration, and these abilities become almost infinitely spammable with Fleeting Expertise and Streamline.

 

The biggest problem is that Trinity can make her party invincible permanently with no reprucussions. I have a Blessing which lasts 27.9 seconds, unlimited range, costs 13.26 energy. 

+162% Duration -70% Energy Cost +.6 Energy Regen

 

This is simply not fun to play, and no challenge. However if you wish to go into the farthest levels of Defense and Survival (Arguably your most popular game modes) you must have a trinity with you. Furthermore in survival you need a nekros with you so that you can get the extra Life Support, but that's a discussion for a separate topic. 

 

This is not a Trinity problem however and can extend to all warframes. 

 

Fleeting Expertise 4/6 + Max Streamline = -70% Energy Cost -20% Duration. 

This is perfect for: 

Rhino (Stomp and Iron Skin)

Volt (Shock and Overload)

Ash (Shuriken, Teleport, Blade Storm)

Mag (Crush, Shield Polarize, Pull)

Frost  (Ice Wave, Avalanche) 

Nova (MPrime, Antimatter Drop)

 

Now the counter argument to this is that the duration penalty is supposed to offset the Energy Cost reduction. However once you have a baseline 30 energy or less ability cost you can get the duration up to unbelievable levels. On Frames effected by Duration but not range you add Narrow Minded. This fixes the issue on the following frames: 

Trinity

Ash (Smoke Screen)

Loki (Invisibility, Decoy, Switch Teleport)

Volt (Speed, Electric Shield)

Saryn (Molt, Contagion)

 

On things effected by duration and range, you can simply counter the side effect with Continuity. This leaves you with abilities that have Slightly higher duration, but cost 1/3 of the cost. Therefore you never have any side effects of using these mods, and can spam your abilities forever. (Cost 26 of 37 of any frame, leaving 11 for powers) 

 

Please let me know what you think

[Archistopheles]

Don't nerf it til I get the mod pls.

[Seanjuju]

It balances out when you use blind rage like I do.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Oh God... Not another nerf nagging...  Let's kill all mods...  multishots, flows, iron skins, etc...  Rename the game to War of Duty...  C'mon...  Really?

 

What's next weeks target?

 

EDIT:  (It's always from someone with less than 50 posts too?  Gee wonder why?)

Edited December 5, 2013 by sushidubya

[Kilzoth]

At Sushidbubya, do you believe that having permanent invincibility is ok for this game? What reasons do you have to think that this mod is indeed balanced?

[Luminati07]

Oh God... Not another nerf nagging...  Let's kill all mods...  multishots, flows, iron skins, etc...  Rename the game to War of Duty...  C'mon...  Really?

 

What's next weeks target?

 

EDIT:  (It's always from someone with less than 50 posts too?  Gee wonder why?)

Amount of posts means sweet F*** all.

 

I'm curious how you are associating someone providing legitimate feedback with Call of Duty.

 

It's funny that you make fun of his post count, when his post was obviously well thought out. Yet, you, with 3000 posts, have next to no thought in yours.

[Archistopheles]

Amount of posts means sweet F*** all.

 

I usually like to make fun of myself in some way when someone mentions post count.

 

[Wallace24]

yeah, despite how much I like being invincible (and how much the party appreciates it), fleeting expertise is incredibly OP, the duration drop really isn't that bad since you have narrow minded, continuity, and constitution to make up for it. the efficiency compared to the duration drop makes sense, you drop 50% duration to gain 50% efficiency, so if you only had fleeting expertise on, the only difference would be that in the same span of time you'd have to use the ability twice instead of once, but the total cost would be the same

 

but using ultimates for only 25 energy is insane, and tbh, even on some powers that benefit from duration (like miasma, and I want to say avalanche, for example), its still better to have that efficiency instead of the duration. granted, most other ults are extremely hindered by narrow minded, but the abilities that aren't gain a huge boost from the narrow minded+fleeting expertise combo

 

not sure your math is entirely correct with trinity's blessing, as it has a base cost of 100 energy, the maxed-out duration has a base value of 10 seconds. so with narrow minded max (+99%), continuity (+30%), constitution (+28%), and the Aura helmet (+25%), using fleeting expertise at +50% efficiency, -50% duration, your duration total is +132%, or 23.2 seconds. efficiency is hard-capped at 75%, at least that's how it used to be, so you can use the 50/50 fleeting expertise and 25% from streamline

 

all that being said, I think its fine for trinity, especially since its basically a necessity on high-level stuff, and at least for most other frames, the range drop from narrow minded is significant enough to make you wary of using it maxed out. as for fleeting expertise, its crazy good, and a necessity on any frame that uses its ult

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

At Sushidbubya, do you believe that having permanent invincibility is ok for this game? What reasons do you have to think that this mod is indeed balanced?

 

Yeah it's perfectly ok.  What's the big deal?

 

If a trinity is on your team keeping you alive allowing you to keep killing and having fun what's bad about it?  It's only a chore for that person playing trinity.

 

I enjoy playing every warframe in this game, and each one has its place.  I do quite well with Trinity when I want to play support.  Is she the most fun frame to play?  No, because if you want to keep up that permanent invincibility you have to robotically cast team heal over and over again.  It's still manually driven, and still prone to human error.

 

Have you forgotten that this is a game where the real fun is working together as a team?

 

About balance.  This mod is balanced and I guess I'll have to state the obvious here.  With Fleeting Expertise and Streamline you get a maximum of 75% energy efficiency with a 50% reduction in power duration.  Now.  I've this put on a Rhino before.  Rhino's charge only moves forward for 1 foot.  lol.  Which basically renders that ability useless.  So in other words, it breaks abilities in certain frames.  There's a TRADE-OFF for sure.  So many examples to show this.  Frames like Loki, Ash, etc. don't benefit from this combo at all.

 

Next...  If you do use it on a frame like Trinity where the power duration is key, you need to put on a continuity and constitution just to offset the Fleeting Expertise/Streamline combo.  You've used 4 slots already towards maximizing energy efficiency.

 

Why in the hell would your first post in these forums be to ask the devs to nerf something?  (I'm sorry to sound patronizing here, but most of us start with introductions, etc.)

 

If I sound brash towards you I apologize, but I've had enough of players who don't have hundreds of hours in this game and have some kind of pet peeve with something make a thread that causes a fun part of this game to be crippled/destroyed.

Edited December 9, 2013 by sushidubya

[Bazools]

Hello All, 

   I've been playing Warframe a few weeks now, and it's a very fun game. However I have recently discovered Fleeting Expertise, and been using it on every frame regardless of it's downside. Many abilities do not scale with Duration, and these abilities become almost infinitely spammable with Fleeting Expertise and Streamline.

 

The biggest problem is that Trinity can make her party invincible permanently with no reprucussions. I have a Blessing which lasts 27.9 seconds, unlimited range, costs 13.26 energy. 

+162% Duration -70% Energy Cost +.6 Energy Regen

 

This is simply not fun to play, and no challenge. However if you wish to go into the farthest levels of Defense and Survival (Arguably your most popular game modes) you must have a trinity with you. Furthermore in survival you need a nekros with you so that you can get the extra Life Support, but that's a discussion for a separate topic. 

 

This is not a Trinity problem however and can extend to all warframes. 

 

Fleeting Expertise 4/6 + Max Streamline = -70% Energy Cost -20% Duration. 

This is perfect for: 

Rhino (Stomp and Iron Skin)

Volt (Shock and Overload)

Ash (Shuriken, Teleport, Blade Storm)

Mag (Crush, Shield Polarize, Pull)

Frost  (Ice Wave, Avalanche) 

Nova (MPrime, Antimatter Drop)

 

Now the counter argument to this is that the duration penalty is supposed to offset the Energy Cost reduction. However once you have a baseline 30 energy or less ability cost you can get the duration up to unbelievable levels. On Frames effected by Duration but not range you add Narrow Minded. This fixes the issue on the following frames: 

Trinity

Ash (Smoke Screen)

Loki (Invisibility, Decoy, Switch Teleport)

Volt (Speed, Electric Shield)

Saryn (Molt, Contagion)

 

On things effected by duration and range, you can simply counter the side effect with Continuity. This leaves you with abilities that have Slightly higher duration, but cost 1/3 of the cost. Therefore you never have any side effects of using these mods, and can spam your abilities forever. (Cost 26 of 37 of any frame, leaving 11 for powers) 

 

Please let me know what you think

Are u f'ing serious dude? What is game breaking is players asking for nerfs on corrupted mods (no math required!)

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Amount of posts means sweet F*** all.

 

I'm curious how you are associating someone providing legitimate feedback with Call of Duty.

 

It's funny that you make fun of his post count, when his post was obviously well thought out. Yet, you, with 3000 posts, have next to no thought in yours.

 

I'm not making fun of his post count.  There must be some correlation between someone's interest in this game, time spent discussing, etc.  right?

 

For his/her first post?

 

Really?

 

I make the "War of Duty" reference with almost every nerf request thread I get involved with.  Why?  It's obvious...  If I want to play a straight shooter with no advantages, nothing to alter game dynamics, etc.  I'd play those games.

 

Nerf after nerf after nerf.

 

There are two sides to this argument.  I'm not on the side of the OPs...  There's nothing wrong with that.

[AlienOvermind]

Frames like Loki, Ash, etc. don't benefit from this combo at all.

Well, Loki can be invisible for 24.8sec with Fleeting+Streamline+Continuty+Constitution+Narrowminded. As for Ash he can stay invisible for 16.5sec with same combo. Ofc, Switch Teleport, Radial Disarm, Teleport and Blade Storm will be less effective, but why should I care when I have eternal invisibility.

Edited December 5, 2013 by AlienOvermind

[Kilzoth]

 

not sure your math is entirely correct with trinity's blessing, as it has a base cost of 100 energy, the maxed-out duration has a base value of 10 seconds. so with narrow minded max (+99%), continuity (+30%), constitution (+28%), and the Aura helmet (+25%), using fleeting expertise at +50% efficiency, -50% duration, your duration total is +132%, or 23.2 seconds. efficiency is hard-capped at 75%, at least that's how it used to be, so you can use the 50/50 fleeting expertise and 25% from streamline

 

all that being said, I think its fine for trinity, especially since its basically a necessity on high-level stuff, and at least for most other frames, the range drop from narrow minded is significant enough to make you wary of using it maxed out. as for fleeting expertise, its crazy good, and a necessity on any frame that uses its ult

Wallace, I'm using Fleeting Expertise at 40% efficiency, and fleeting expertise at 30%. The energy cost is so low because of the energy I get back from Energy Siphon while the ability is ticking away. The time I had is what I timed in game. Whats the difference between high level and low level content if you have permanent invincibility and good guns? 

 

I'm not making fun of his post count.  There must be some correlation between someone's interest in this game, time spent discussing, etc.  right?

 

For his/her first post?

 

Really?

 

I make the "War of Duty" reference with almost every nerf request thread I get involved with.  Why?  It's obvious...  If I want to play a straight shooter with no advantages, nothing to alter game dynamics, etc.  I'd play those games.

 

Nerf after nerf after nerf.

 

There are two sides to this argument.  I'm not on the side of the OPs...  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

I've currently spent 273 hours in this game, and have spent plenty of time on the forums, I just don't post unless I deem it important. 

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Well, Loki can be invisible for 27.8sec with Fleeting+Streamline+Continuty+Constitution+Narrowminded. As for Ash he can stay invisible for 18.5sec with same combo. Ofc, Switch Teleport, Radial Disarm, Teleport and Blade Storm will be less effective, but why should I care when I have eternal invisibility.

 

What you say is absolutely correct, but also re-enforces my point about how using this combo taking up valuable mod slots (5 mod slots in your example) and how it breaks certain abilities.  In my opinion that IS in fact the balance.

 

Granted yes...  Invisibility is quite useful, but it's basically taking versatile frames and turning them into one-trick ponies....  Alternatively, if used on damage frames, you get glass cannons, etc.

 

We have this with guns too no?  Corrupted mods like heavy caliber, etc. can make a weapon extremely powerful, yet make it less effective at long range combat.

 

@Kilzoth...  I have almost 1000 more hours than you.  (1241 in steam and 783 mission hours)  I'm not judging your intelligence or making fun of you at all.  In fact I have no beef with you personally.  I just have a problem with people calling for nerfs week after week for this game.  It makes me wonder how much time they spend enjoying themselves with it, rather than looking for things they "don't like or don't feel right" with it.

 

It's supposed to be an over the top game where we have supreme carnage and ridiculous explosions, etc.  I dunno about the rest of you here, but don't you get your jollies from all that?

 

If something is ridiculously overpowered causing everyone to lose fun...  YES it needs to go.  However, I don't see 90% of the player base looking to be permanently invisible or invincible.  I don't even think it's fun to drone on looking at everyone's health bar and pressing 4 when needed.  (granted it's part of being a good Trinity player and Trinity players are invaluable) but what's happening here with this combo is not ruining anyone's gaming experience.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sushidubya

[Kilzoth]

In fact it is ruining peoples gaming experience. I can only speak for myself when I say that being made permanently invincible by someone else is no fun. The fun for me in a game is the challenge of it, and that literally removes all challenge except for hoping that enough life support drops that we can keep going. If a game is balanced around the fact that players will be invincible most of the time at high level, it makes for very very dull run around and smash things mode with things like the stalker in it's current incarnation being required for a small occasional challenge. If people like it that way, and it's working as intended, that's fine. But I don't feel like removing all the challenge from a game makes it very fun. 

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

In fact it is ruining peoples gaming experience. I can only speak for myself when I say that being made permanently invincible by someone else is no fun. The fun for me in a game is the challenge of it, and that literally removes all challenge except for hoping that enough life support drops that we can keep going. If a game is balanced around the fact that players will be invincible most of the time at high level, it makes for very very dull run around and smash things mode with things like the stalker in it's current incarnation being required for a small occasional challenge. If people like it that way, and it's working as intended, that's fine. But I don't feel like removing all the challenge from a game makes it very fun. 

 

The frequency of which I see this combo doing what you say is not at a level where it's become mainstream and some sort of community standard.  It is small sample of individuals that wish to do so and certainly not dominating the playing field.

 

I don't see everyone going bonkers looking to play Trinity and trying to be invincible.  This is not like the Acrid, etc. where you'd find two thirds of the player base spamming away at it, or hearing that players are "forced" to use a certain weapon or mod combo in order to contribute to the team, etc.  It's nothing like that.

 

You discovered a very strong combination of mods in this game.  Some of us have been using it since the day it was released.  There was a nerfing of the combo.  It used to be that we could achieve 90% efficiency.  Many of us went to ask for the mod to be balanced/re-worked then.

 

I feel that the trade-offs are very fair.  It's not like we can equip this combo without any consequences at all.  Yes it does enhance certain frames abilities greatly, but at the same time it kills off other abilities within the same warframe.

[NikolaiLev]

Sound math, good reasoning.  You've convinced me, and I haven't seen a compelling argument against it.  Seems like the rank 6 ratio should be +60% efficiency and -80% duration or more.

 

Either way, a nerf is in order.

[fatpig84]

I don't even use invisibility much on Loki now, derp.
But to be blunt, if Power duration is reduced further, some frames are going arguably get more powerful.

 

Rhino stomp will only have a 1 SECOND cool down. 

In the span of 100 energy, Rhino will deal 4000 Blast damage (assuming he fitted focus by default) in like 6 seconds.

 

Not particularly powerful on end tier games ? Sure, but this griefs mid tier players even onto greater heights.

Does Nova even need the duration at all ? No Null stars for her.... But I don't even see Null stars slotted on some Novas.

 

 

This will only badly affect certain frames like a Radial Blind excalibur or Nekros summons and terrify but for others, nope, not much. A radial disarm specced Loki is used to running with a very short duration invisibility, does it affect him much ? Nope again not much.

 

Cheap cloaking Lokis already have a net gain for energy, even if not using Fleeting, just essence and max streamline cuts the cost of cloak in half and that is far more sufficient for most issues.

Edited December 6, 2013 by fatpig84

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

Corrupted mods are meant to be imbalance, deal with it. Looking from your perspective, blind rage is imbalance, overextended is imbalance, even heavy caliber gives you too much damage. Fleeting expertise is the best corrupted mod. It's not strange to find it this powerful. And even without this mod existence, role of trinity was always making her teammate invincible as much as possible. You shouldn't complain when someone is finally doing their job right. If you find playing with good players unchallenging, go find a squad at inner terminus please. There are great deal of people enjoying this mod, which is the exact meaning of playing games...

[Empiren]

At Sushidbubya, do you believe that having permanent invincibility is ok for this game? What reasons do you have to think that this mod is indeed balanced?

 That seems to be more of a trinity problem than fleeting expertise.

[fatpig84]

 That seems to be more of a trinity problem than fleeting expertise.

 

 

Yeah what he said.

[NeroGrave]

I like to enjoy my games while at the same time being stronger than the AI in every way possible, roflpubstomping the Grineers. That's why I play this game. OP doesn't like the "ease of pubstomping" the AI like I do. So should we nerf this mod?

 

Because last I checked, this isn't a game like Devil May Cry or Dark Souls, just an extremely fun 3rd person shooter where you actually get to be OP. If every game in this world revolves around challenge or tough gameplay, I'd say many people would miss out on some fun games. Not every person get to have that super fast reflexes or skills like the elite people do. Let me enjoy being OP please.

[yiN_]

Fleeting Expertise is fine and is not a must have for every frame at all.

[VentiGlondi]

Oh God... Not another nerf nagging...  Let's kill all mods...  multishots, flows, iron skins, etc...  Rename the game to War of Duty...  C'mon...  Really?

Somehow the game wasn't even close to Call of Duty before they introduced corrupted mods.

[GhostUnitVII]

Game was great, until the nerfaholics got their hands on it, now it feels more like CoD...

 

nerf this, nerf that, not one mention of a Buff, just nerf everything into obivion till theres nothing left, and then they complain to the Devs at how crappy the game is.

Edited December 6, 2013 by GhostUnitVII