Fleeting Expertise Is Too Good Not To Use, And Game Breaking. (With Math)

[Keltik0ne]

A soft cap of 75% power efficiency is already forced in the game, instead of the potential 90% that Fleeting Expertise and Streamline SHOULD be able to give.

 

 

I say nay. 

Interesting, I didn't realise this. More mod space for me then.

[LukeAura]

Interesting, I didn't realise this. More mod space for me then.

Technically, you should need 3 of Fleeting Expertise, for optimal builds.  

1 to be used with efficiency at 30% efficiency with streamline+helmet, provides your optimal efficiency vs. duration for Banshee/Loki/Nyx. 

1 to be used at 40% with streamline. Provides optimal efficiency for every frame without an efficiency helmet. Hits 70% efficiency, any more and you lose 10% duration for 5% efficiency and it isn't quite as good per energy point. 

1 to be used at full efficiency to combo with blind rage and streamline for extra power strength. You can get an extra 27%(57% total) power strength and keep your max efficiency, but duration suffers. Great for Nova/Mag builds and niche builds for Excalibur, Rhino, Volt. 

[tehous]

This sort of combo requires 4 mod slots (3 if you don't use streamline) and this is without taking into account mods for power strength, range and frame survivability. Such a build is an option if you want to make one or two skills very spammable while sacrificing the rest and you might still need to Forma a skill polarity slot to make it work but it hardly fits everyone's playstyle.

Fleeting+streamline by itself is generally better than going for continuity+constitution, going for focus+streamline. Point being that the gain is large while the sacrifice is only applicable for a minority of skills.

 

Fleeting expertise is not good on Excalibur, Frost, Saryn and Vauban. A lot of sacrifice has to be made for some frame to equip this mod.

Moreover, this mod is essential for nekros, nyx and valkyr. Nerfing this would make the game much, much more boring.

Frost: More uptime on globe/freeze, more spam of avalanche/wave

Vauban: Increased uptime of vortex/bastille, more spam of tesla/pads

I see no real drawback to going for energy efficiency on these frames.

 

Wait... Two rare mods giving some kind of nice advantage in Warframe? What a novel concept right?

Split chamber is too good not to use on all rifles. Hell's chamber and barrel diffusion too. (On their respective weapon types of course.)

Problem?

If you have one option better than all other options it's not really a matter of choice other than the choice between sumoptimality or not. Not having +multishot or serration would generally only be due to lacking the mods rather than preferring alternatives.

 

What function do they serve except as a gating mechanic?

It's arguably better to have a less stringent gating mechanic like e.g. mastery rank->weapons.

 

A soft cap of 75% power efficiency is already forced in the game, instead of the potential 90% that Fleeting Expertise and Streamline SHOULD be able to give.

 

 

I say nay. 

I don't quite get your point?

Saying that it's lower than it could be doesn't mean that it's good as it is. 

 

Also, wouldn't it be more prudent if energy efficiency used a cost=1/(1+energy efficiency) formula...like other duration decreasing mods...

You know, to avoid the "design fault" of an apparently additive increase giving an exponential benefit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duration abilities is the worst case for fleeting(+streamline) and even for those, in most cases, it's more cost efficient to go for fleeting+streamline than for pure duration mods.

 

When you start looking at frames with less dependence on duration it's even worse.

e.g.

Focus: 1.3 relative damage per energy

Blind rage: 1.28 relative damage per energy

Fleeting: 2 relative damage per energy

Focus + Blind rage: 1.48 relative damage per energy

Fleeting + streamline: 4 relative damage per energy

[luanle21]

if the corrupt mods didnt have any massive negative then yes nerf allow but since they do and we still need more mod slot which probably wont come till a surprise 11.5 or in U12 or U13 then hell to the NO

[Babalenong]

if the mod wont benefit ALL abilities, then its not imbalanced

you will be extremely annoyed with the power duration decreased on power duration dependant frames like nyx, but for non duration dependant frames, it is one great mod

just like putting heavy caliber rifle mod, on weapons like sniper rifle it could be useless because you will miss a lot of shots, but on high fire rate guns it could be extremely good because the accuracy decrease will be outshaded by the extreme fire rate

[Charismo]

Read through the thread.  

 

I did in fact apologize for sounding brash, but I don't retract my feelings on someone's first post on these forums being to call for a nerf and all of the unwarranted nerf requests that've been rampant on these forums lately.

 

I'm sorry, but if I were to get on to the forums for my first post and ask for all rifle multishots to be nerfed, I'm sure I'd get some resistance as well.

 

Whether you agreed with him or not, your post lowered the bar for this discussion. The fact that one of his first post attempted to provide examples and arguments for his point should be praised and supported, not lambasted. He tried to make an argument. You resorted to character assassination.

 

The problem as I see it is that there is a conflict between what corrupted mods currently do, and how much certain frames benefit from them.

 

If you nerf the mod, you limit the extravagant benefits that a certain few frames gain from it. At the same time, there are frames that do not benefit nearly as much. You would significantly be hurting those frames. Yet at the same time, if you nerf a frame's ability to receive those extravagant benefits, you drastically hurt those who choose not to use that build.

 

More abilities need to be effected by modifiers. It isn't just Trinity. Many frames' abilities are not effected by modifiers like duration, defeating the "double edge sword" nature of corrupted mods. These abilities receive ALL of the benefits, and none of the downsides.

[tehous]

you will be extremely annoyed with the power duration decreased on power duration dependant frames like nyx

Will you?

 

For Mind Control I could see that needing to cast it multiple times to achieve the same duration could be inconvenient, iff you intend to keep a pet with you for an extended period. I generally don't use it much, preferring chaos. When I do use it it's to get temporary lockdown/aggro redirection and I find that a duration longer than a couple of seconds goes to waste. i.e. more or less pure benefit for me.

 

Psychic bolts, pure benefit.

 

Chaos, the important one imo. Here I find spamming multiple shorter duration chaos to be vastly superior seeing as generally you're either

A: Static and multiple casts catches new mobs as well as the ones who were there for previous casts, you get more mobs under control under longer time.

B: You're on the move and mobs will either be dead or far behind by the time that a long duration runs out

Vastly superior to spam many shorter duration in either case.

 

Absorb, multiple shorter duration absorbs will result in more cc and ~same damage. Easier to use since you don't get locked down forever and ever.

[es.iiden]

you guys do realize there's a cap for energy efficiency at 75% right?

[TenkoTenko]

you guys do realize there's a cap for energy efficiency at 75% right?

Yeah pretty much everyone did. Thanks anyway. People max Fleeting Expertise for Blind Rage builds.

[Zurkr]

 That seems to be more of a trinity problem than fleeting expertise.

 

It seems to be more of a someone telling me how to have fun problem than a Trinity problem.

 

If they are playing with people who are using a combo that breaks their fun, maybe they should stop playing with those people.

[Zedera]

It seems to be more of a someone telling me how to have fun problem than a Trinity problem.

 

If they are playing with people who are using a combo that breaks their fun, maybe they should stop playing with those people.

 

This is easier said than done. Walk into a match with randoms because no friends are on? I've walked from start to finish through high end levels without seeing a single enemy because my team consisted of me on a Valkyr, set alongside a Nova, a Rhino, and a Mag Prime. Not that I seek to add to the chorus of complaints about these frames, I just sigh, look at my 0% damage dealt, and move on. Warframe is a game that emphasizes 4-player co-op gameplay. As in gameplay enhanced by the presence of others. Not detracted from by their presence. As such, some level difficulties are set to be rather hard to pull through without the right weapons/frames if you decide to go in solo.

 

At least with friends you can politely ask them not to play certain frames. I have friends who have fleeting expertise and streamline mods on their Rhino, and run around maps spamming stomp. Before damage 2.0, they left a trail of ammo and energy orbs in their wake. Outside of boss fights such as with Lephantis, it was plain annoying. Now I don't know if that build works.

 

In short, yes, I see Fleeting Expertise as a real problem that can affect people's experience in this game, and the OP having a valid point. It goes beyond just the mod. I think there should be a higher cap on the energy reduction you can get on casting abilities in general, to prevent frames with powerful abilities from getting out of control and degrading the experience of players who are just too new to the game to have the right mods, forma'd frames/weapons, etc. to keep up. Hell, right now, with Valkyr and just the streamline and continuity mods, I can stay in an infested survival mission indefinitely as long as a trickle of energy orbs keeps dropping. No sweat. Infinite invincibility can make you drunk on power. I had to relearn aspects of the game once I fully leveled Valkyr. I had gotten too used to walking up to infested ancients and wailing away at them.

[ObviousLee]

snip

so someone else's fun isn't fun to you so change the system to take away their fun so you can have your fun, but they lose their fun in the process. what about everyone else' fun?

 

sounds purty selfish to me.

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

Childish opinion everywhere..go survival for 40 mins and you'll see why you need all the invincibility this game has to offer. 

[Zedera]

so someone else's fun isn't fun to you so change the system to take away their fun so you can have your fun, but they lose their fun in the process. what about everyone else' fun?

 

sounds purty selfish to me.

 

It's give and take, and there has to be a good midpoint to reach. Is it fair when you get all the kills and no one else does? No. Is it fair when someone else gets all the kills and you don't? No. This is a multiplayer game. Not everyone's sense of fun is going to be the same. I imagine some people complained their 'fun' was being infringed on when Loki and Mag lost the ability to fling teammates around. This discussion here follows the same vein of thought: should energy reduction mods, specifically fleeting expertise, be nerfed enough to keep some frames who benefit more from the mod within a reasonable level of power as to create balance among members of a mission? I think so.

 

Childish opinion everywhere..go survival for 40 mins and you'll see why you need all the invincibility this game has to offer. 

 

No doubt, I agree with you on this one. In end-game missions where enemy levels are reaching towards the triple digits, you want to be as powerful as possible. I'm guilty of this myself, playing Valkyr in non-stop invincibility mode. The problem in this game is one of balancing the need for power in those higher levels with the brokenness that ensues when those high level players come into the lower levels with their powerful mods, and play alongside players who haven't attained that level of power.

 

While energy orbs are plentiful in survival missions to keep iron skin and hysteria and what have you up 24/7, they are less bountiful in lower levels, making energy a soft cap of sorts on ability-dependent frames who would otherwise be just as strong as they are in survival missions. Fleeting Expertise combined with Streamline gets around this by reducing your energy costs so that you can be as powerful as if you were on a survival mission raining orbs. And that is where you start affecting others around you who might be trying to level weapons, enjoy a boss fight, or otherwise enjoy the game.

[PapaKicks]

Using this combo taking up valuable mod slots (5 mod slots in your example) and how it breaks certain abilities.  In my opinion that IS in fact the balance.

 

Bingo.

[AmmoRejected]

Instead of saying it needs a re-balance/rework, how about brainstorming just HOW a re-balance/rework might effect the mod?

 

If the cap were taken lower than 75% to like say 50%, ults are still easily usable and spammable. If you're clearing survivals or defenses then you know there's an abundance of energy anyway so no matter what the cap, the spam may continue. (This STILL applies to Trinity invincibility)

 

If Duration takes a beating any more than it does, frames like Ember, Vauban or Volt's core abilities will barely be worth the energy to cast such a short ability, OR not even worth it to use the mod at all; I love my Ember to pieces, but I still don't use FE on her because EVERYTHING she has is duration-based.

 

A combination of the above two might be possible, but lowering the utility of a mod in all areas simply lowers it's worth. If the cap takes too much of a hit, either SL or FE will be left out of most builds to conserve the points. If the duration takes too much [more] of a hit, duration frames will begin to roll without it just because the new cap nerf + the duration hit just isn't worth. (See above frames)

 

Expanding on the idea of completely changing how FE effects a warframe, what if it hit range instead? R.I.P. ANYTHING mixed with Narrow Minded. Bastille would just be done, as would Fire Blast and Vortex, not to mention it no longer even touches Trinity, making that last even longer.

 

I'm going over it with the almighty wiki at the moment and everything I'm looking at... Too much bad for all of the frames that already don't gain much (or do so with significant trade-off) to be worth it anymore, or doesn't address the primary issue at all. I think it's time we stop thinking about FE and start thinking about Trinity. Has anyone considered what if there were mechanics in place that made the mod effect ONLY Trinity in a certain way? Not even only Trinity, how about the abilities found to be most abusable? This will of course generate lots of flak from people who won't think targeted effects is fair for a mod used universally, but it's a start and it addresses issues specific to instances like permanent invincibility.

Edited December 11, 2013 by AmmoRejected

[hallfrom]

Granted yes...  Invisibility is quite useful, but it's basically taking versatile frames and turning them into one-trick ponies....  Alternatively, if used on damage frames, you get glass cannons, etc.

For some frames it's not quite true ... You just get a glass. Since the damage they do not have any armor, no damage.

As between "caster" and "Tank", the difference is not in damage, and only in the armor. Even speed prototype (the ratio of armor 1/15 and 1/1.2 Done). Way casters also have a narrow specialization, for the most part.

Edited December 11, 2013 by hallfrom

[derclaw]

A soft cap of 75% power efficiency is already forced in the game, instead of the potential 90% that Fleeting Expertise and Streamline SHOULD be able to give.

 

 

I say nay. 

Its not soft-cap - its called hard-cap. Soft-cap is when you reach that cap - you still get something by staking stuff more, but diminishing return kicks in. Hard-cap - is when you reach it, its over. All caps so far are all harcaps.

 

On topic - to hell nerf of fleeting expertise. Fine mod that makes dmg frames more or less usefull in higher lvl content.

 

They just need to fix Rhino roflstomp to be affected by skill duration, so it will be in line with how this mod cripple utility\crowd controll skills, while skyrocketing dmg potential. In that case Rhino can choose to either spec for duration or for dmg.

 

Also its basicly the only way to properly use maxed Blind rage.

[Dalewyn]

I'm not even sure why I slogged my way through this topic, but here's my small 2 cents.

 

If the topic of discussion here is regarding player invincibility, any nerf/balance changes should be directed to Blessing (and maybe Link?) rather than Fleeting Expertise. Blessing and Link impart invincibility upon the entire team (and just for Trinity in the case of Link) by design, Fleeting Expertise and other such mods only serve to strengthen or weaken that design.

[tehous]

you guys do realize there's a cap for energy efficiency at 75% right?

Yes and do you realize that this corresponds to 400% casts per energy?

 

Constitution+continuity+narrow minded: +157% uptime

Fleeting+streamline+narrow minded: +496% uptime

 

Stacking energy efficiency has a exponential gain, stacking power/duration/range has a linear gain.

Gain on Y-axis, total +% on X-axis, blue for energy efficiency, red for the rest.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+100%2F%28100-x%29%2C%28100%2Bx%29%2F100+from+x%3D0+to+75

[ObviousLee]

It's give and take, and there has to be a good midpoint to reach. Is it fair when you get all the kills and no one else does? No. Is it fair when someone else gets all the kills and you don't? No. This is a multiplayer game. Not everyone's sense of fun is going to be the same. I imagine some people complained their 'fun' was being infringed on when Loki and Mag lost the ability to fling teammates around. This discussion here follows the same vein of thought: should energy reduction mods, specifically fleeting expertise, be nerfed enough to keep some frames who benefit more from the mod within a reasonable level of power as to create balance among members of a mission? I think so.

 

so the basic consensus is when someone is geared for end game and doesnt feel like spending ample time killing mobs because he/she is farming mats or mods, you're saying that we HAVE to adhere to what others want.

 

the middle ground, is personal choice. "does this person feel like using an OP build to make farming less time consuming?" who is anyone to take that away?

 

i ask again. WHY IS IT PEOPLE STRUGGLE TO BE WEAKER IN THIS GAME. take the mod off. THAT simple. dont max it out if you use it, that simple.

 

there is NO MANDATE that says "you MUST use this mod or else." so can we please stop asking for changes that are just going to screw people over? so what if it provides ample energy for SOME FRAMES TO MAKE NICHE BUILDS, seriously, so what?

 

the only thing i've been seeing is nerf this and nerf that, because we dont want to play the hard stuff. EVERY TIME you guys cry for a weapon, frame, power., or mod nerf you effective ASK DE to take away things we NEED, not want, NEED, for endgame exploration. MY FUN, is in outer terminus, and the harder difficulty maps, but for some reason people want the balance toward the inner planets because "the higher levels aren't balanced", and yet i seem to do just fine, my team, seems to do just fine, untill another damned nerf comes along effectively chipping away at the available tools we have to use, in the name of balance.

 

see, when you cry nerf, the only thing you are doing is taking away, not balancing. BALANCE means something is GIVEN as well as being taken away from. there has been nothing but take-away for the last little bit, and im sick of watching my viability in endgame being stripped away by people who just started and feel that something is "too beneficial."

[Zurkr]

This is easier said than done. Walk into a match with randoms because no friends are on? I've walked from start to finish through high end levels without seeing a single enemy because my team consisted of me on a Valkyr, set alongside a Nova, a Rhino, and a Mag Prime. Not that I seek to add to the chorus of complaints about these frames, I just sigh, look at my 0% damage dealt, and move on. Warframe is a game that emphasizes 4-player co-op gameplay. As in gameplay enhanced by the presence of others. Not detracted from by their presence. As such, some level difficulties are set to be rather hard to pull through without the right weapons/frames if you decide to go in solo.

 

At least with friends you can politely ask them not to play certain frames. I have friends who have fleeting expertise and streamline mods on their Rhino, and run around maps spamming stomp. Before damage 2.0, they left a trail of ammo and energy orbs in their wake. Outside of boss fights such as with Lephantis, it was plain annoying. Now I don't know if that build works.

 

In short, yes, I see Fleeting Expertise as a real problem that can affect people's experience in this game, and the OP having a valid point. It goes beyond just the mod. I think there should be a higher cap on the energy reduction you can get on casting abilities in general, to prevent frames with powerful abilities from getting out of control and degrading the experience of players who are just too new to the game to have the right mods, forma'd frames/weapons, etc. to keep up. Hell, right now, with Valkyr and just the streamline and continuity mods, I can stay in an infested survival mission indefinitely as long as a trickle of energy orbs keeps dropping. No sweat. Infinite invincibility can make you drunk on power. I had to relearn aspects of the game once I fully leveled Valkyr. I had gotten too used to walking up to infested ancients and wailing away at them.

 

 

It's give and take, and there has to be a good midpoint to reach. Is it fair when you get all the kills and no one else does? No. Is it fair when someone else gets all the kills and you don't? No. This is a multiplayer game. Not everyone's sense of fun is going to be the same. I imagine some people complained their 'fun' was being infringed on when Loki and Mag lost the ability to fling teammates around. This discussion here follows the same vein of thought: should energy reduction mods, specifically fleeting expertise, be nerfed enough to keep some frames who benefit more from the mod within a reasonable level of power as to create balance among members of a mission? I think so.

 

 

No doubt, I agree with you on this one. In end-game missions where enemy levels are reaching towards the triple digits, you want to be as powerful as possible. I'm guilty of this myself, playing Valkyr in non-stop invincibility mode. The problem in this game is one of balancing the need for power in those higher levels with the brokenness that ensues when those high level players come into the lower levels with their powerful mods, and play alongside players who haven't attained that level of power.

 

While energy orbs are plentiful in survival missions to keep iron skin and hysteria and what have you up 24/7, they are less bountiful in lower levels, making energy a soft cap of sorts on ability-dependent frames who would otherwise be just as strong as they are in survival missions. Fleeting Expertise combined with Streamline gets around this by reducing your energy costs so that you can be as powerful as if you were on a survival mission raining orbs. And that is where you start affecting others around you who might be trying to level weapons, enjoy a boss fight, or otherwise enjoy the game.

 

I apparently fundamentally disagree with you.  I am the only person responsible for, and in control of, how much fun I have.

 

Honestly, I sometimes feel like an old man who wants to shake his head at the youngsters who don't get it.  Please don't take that the wrong way, but I'd like people to think about what they could do to their own situations to make it more enjoyable for themselves, and stop worrying so much about what others are doing.

 

If a game is not fun, I go find one that is.  If pugging is not fun because it is too easy (because Nova), I go equip an unranked frame and weapons and see how high a mission I can Solo.  Sometimes having Invulnerability is fun in itself, sometimes being able to survive for 30+ minutes is what is fun and I don't care what tool I use as long as it works.  But never waste your own time.

 

Instead of saying it needs a re-balance/rework, how about brainstorming just HOW a re-balance/rework might effect the mod?

 

If the cap were taken lower than 75% to like say 50%, ults are still easily usable and spammable. If you're clearing survivals or defenses then you know there's an abundance of energy anyway so no matter what the cap, the spam may continue. (This STILL applies to Trinity invincibility)

 

If Duration takes a beating any more than it does, frames like Ember, Vauban or Volt's core abilities will barely be worth the energy to cast such a short ability, OR not even worth it to use the mod at all; I love my Ember to pieces, but I still don't use FE on her because EVERYTHING she has is duration-based.

 

A combination of the above two might be possible, but lowering the utility of a mod in all areas simply lowers it's worth. If the cap takes too much of a hit, either SL or FE will be left out of most builds to conserve the points. If the duration takes too much [more] of a hit, duration frames will begin to roll without it just because the new cap nerf + the duration hit just isn't worth. (See above frames)

 

Expanding on the idea of completely changing how FE effects a warframe, what if it hit range instead? R.I.P. ANYTHING mixed with Narrow Minded. Bastille would just be done, as would Fire Blast and Vortex, not to mention it no longer even touches Trinity, making that last even longer.

 

I'm going over it with the almighty wiki at the moment and everything I'm looking at... Too much bad for all of the frames that already don't gain much (or do so with significant trade-off) to be worth it anymore, or doesn't address the primary issue at all. I think it's time we stop thinking about FE and start thinking about Trinity. Has anyone considered what if there were mechanics in place that made the mod effect ONLY Trinity in a certain way? Not even only Trinity, how about the abilities found to be most abusable? This will of course generate lots of flak from people who won't think targeted effects is fair for a mod used universally, but it's a start and it addresses issues specific to instances like permanent invincibility.

 

Trinity is not the only way to be invulnerabe.  If one deserves a nerf (which i don't agree with) then they all do.

 

I'm not even sure why I slogged my way through this topic, but here's my small 2 cents.

 

If the topic of discussion here is regarding player invincibility, any nerf/balance changes should be directed to Blessing (and maybe Link?) rather than Fleeting Expertise. Blessing and Link impart invincibility upon the entire team (and just for Trinity in the case of Link) by design, Fleeting Expertise and other such mods only serve to strengthen or weaken that design.

 

Link is only 75% damage reduction.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zurkr

[Kilzoth]

Yes and do you realize that this corresponds to 400% casts per energy?

 

Constitution+continuity+narrow minded: +157% uptime

Fleeting+streamline+narrow minded: +496% uptime

 

Stacking energy efficiency has a exponential gain, stacking power/duration/range has a linear gain.

Gain on Y-axis, total +% on X-axis, blue for energy efficiency, red for the rest.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+100%2F%28100-x%29%2C%28100%2Bx%29%2F100+from+x%3D0+to+75

This is exactly my point, thank you for the much more concise graph. So far I haven't seen a single build that wouldn't use the slots for this. 

[Zedera]

I apparently fundamentally disagree with you.  I am the only person responsible for, and in control of, how much fun I have.

 

Honestly, I sometimes feel like an old man who wants to shake his head at the youngsters who don't get it.  Please don't take that the wrong way, but I'd like people to think about what they could do to their own situations to make it more enjoyable for themselves, and stop worrying so much about what others are doing.

 

If a game is not fun, I go find one that is.  If pugging is not fun because it is too easy (because Nova), I go equip an unranked frame and weapons and see how high a mission I can Solo.  Sometimes having Invulnerability is fun in itself, sometimes being able to survive for 30+ minutes is what is fun and I don't care what tool I use as long as it works.  But never waste your own time.

 

 

Trinity is not the only way to be invulnerabe.  If one deserves a nerf (which i don't agree with) then they all do.

 

 

Link is only 75% damage reduction.

 

Yes, we have a fundamentally different approach to how a multiplayer game should be balanced. I'll respond to some of your points and how energy cost reduction factors into the current meta.

 

In a single-player game, you have fun based on how much you like the content in the game. In a multi-player game, it is the same, is it not? Except that other players are part of that content as well. If those other players begin to affect how much you enjoy the game, there are a few options available. You can ignore it, and continue playing the game as is. You can play alone if that is an option, and not play with others. You can stop playing the game and go play something else. Or, you can voice your opinion so that the game might be altered to help improve the gaming experience. This is why we are having this discussion: we want to see a more balanced game. Not all of us have the same idea of balance. But some of us want to see a push away from the status quo towards something else. If it turns out to be a terrible thing and all of you naysayers turn out to be right, then you are vindicated and obviously the change can be reverted. If not, then we have a new status quo that hopefully positively affects the game experience of most players in the game. You sir seem very gifted and resilient in refusing to let other players on a map ruin your fun. I applaud you for that. Not all people are so equally gifted. All I am doing is exercising my right to advocate for change to make the game more fun in the way I see fit.

 

I've challenged myself in order to continue to have fun in this game, when I see things get too easy. Running invincible through lower levels in Valkyr is no way for me to have fun. Spamming pull on Mag and walking into rooms full of dead bodies is not my cup of tea either. On higher levels, both may be a necessity to survive in survivals and such. In lower levels, they're too strong. And this is without having fleeting expertise, which would allow me to spam more powerful abilities. I personally believe that a higher hard cap to energy cost reduction is a step in the right direction to help create a healthier environment in the game. Somewhere between 40-50%, instead of the current 25%. This would prevent ability spamming in lower levels without detracting from gameplay on high level survival where energy orbs are more plentiful. And I ask anyone to explain to me why this would be a bad idea.

 

so the basic consensus is when someone is geared for end game and doesnt feel like spending ample time killing mobs because he/she is farming mats or mods, you're saying that we HAVE to adhere to what others want.

 

the middle ground, is personal choice. "does this person feel like using an OP build to make farming less time consuming?" who is anyone to take that away?

 

i ask again. WHY IS IT PEOPLE STRUGGLE TO BE WEAKER IN THIS GAME. take the mod off. THAT simple. dont max it out if you use it, that simple.

 

there is NO MANDATE that says "you MUST use this mod or else." so can we please stop asking for changes that are just going to screw people over? so what if it provides ample energy for SOME FRAMES TO MAKE NICHE BUILDS, seriously, so what?

 

the only thing i've been seeing is nerf this and nerf that, because we dont want to play the hard stuff. EVERY TIME you guys cry for a weapon, frame, power., or mod nerf you effective ASK DE to take away things we NEED, not want, NEED, for endgame exploration. MY FUN, is in outer terminus, and the harder difficulty maps, but for some reason people want the balance toward the inner planets because "the higher levels aren't balanced", and yet i seem to do just fine, my team, seems to do just fine, untill another damned nerf comes along effectively chipping away at the available tools we have to use, in the name of balance.

 

see, when you cry nerf, the only thing you are doing is taking away, not balancing. BALANCE means something is GIVEN as well as being taken away from. there has been nothing but take-away for the last little bit, and im sick of watching my viability in endgame being stripped away by people who just started and feel that something is "too beneficial."

 

You and I don't see eye-to-eye on balancing. If something becomes apparent to people that it is too strong, then balancing it means weakening it to allow for the opportunity of other powerful but unexplored or underused aspects to rise and shine. If you take away from a powerful thing and give something back to it, it remains just as powerful. Which leaves you back at point A, instead of progressing to point B.

 

It seems the issue you have with my arguments in favor of a nerf to fleeting expertise, or indeed energy cost reduction in general, is that it would make your niche end-game builds useless. You state in your very own post that you NEED 75% energy reduction to survive in the end-game, which is what I am advocating against as being too strong. This then stinks to me of being a very limiting gameplay mechanic. If I NEED to have a certain build or mod to survive in the end-game, that kinda limits my options as to what I can build and have fun on Pluto or in the Vaults. Do you not see that there is something wrong with the current situation if it is the case that you NEED to have a very specific and certain mod in order to play end-game?

 

 

 

I ask all people who wish to argue against ANY balance changes to the game, as seems to be the case with the two responses to my arguments. Do you see the game as perfectly balanced in every single aspect as it is now, with no need for ANY changes to the game? Would adding future weapons, mods, and warframes then not affect that perfectly balanced game? This is an evolving game, not a $60 dollar disk you slot into a machine and expect to stay the way it is. Why shouldn't players be allowed to voice their opinion when they see something that needs changing?

[Cwierz]

Childish opinion everywhere..go survival for 40 mins and you'll see why you need all the invincibility this game has to offer. 

Doesn't that highlight why scaling is broken. no?

okay... lets just add more game breaking things to accomodate for the 1% who play that part of the game.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Cwierz