Pay Attention De, The Grind Problem That Does Exist!

[zergla]

Silvershadow66, on 10 Dec 2013 - 9:48 PM, said:

Since they made the non-prime frames available with an automatic BP drop on the bosses the Grind is fine in my opinion. Its not like you need to spend that long getting anything in the game.

This. Before this it took 2-3 hours to get one frame. Now I have 4 waiting for a slot in my foundry after the same amount of time.

[Gestalt]

My only question is: What would you do in the game if you obtained everything right away and had nothing left to play toward?

The only reason I still play is because there are weapons and frames I don't have yet.

 

Then DE has failed on a fundamental level in the design and execution of this game.

 

It's a fast-paced co-op action-shooter game.  It's a type of game that should be played because it is fun.

 

Why did people play counter-strike over and over when you couldn't level up in any way shape or form.  Because it was fun.

 

Make Warframe fun.

[matto]

Warframe can be fun (except for the dumb AI), Warframe's players are not (0 risk, always full modded, two-three builds max).

[LostAlone]

Have to agree with Shark with this one. I do not mind the grinding, the grinding is needed for continuous gameplay. A good fix though for certain grinding would be to make certain areas drop certain items. Also I think a good way to make grinding not feel so grindy is by DE do what their doing and make more maps, game modes, and other things along those lines.

 

There's two points here. One is wrong, the other is right. 

 

1. The lack of an end-game, or really anything at all beyond grinding, is NOT an excuse for just continually adding more and more grind. As it stands there isn't really a reason to grind, at least not to the extremes that people do. When you are grinding to get better weapons and frames to unlock more content, that is good. When you are grinding just to be grinding that is bad. Having all the frames and guns and stuff is alright I suppose, if collecting is your thing, but that very quickly becomes the only reason you are grinding. The existence of grind isn't the problem; it's that grind is presently meaningless. 

 

2. Yes, WF absolutely SHOULD change the drop tables so specific things drop from specific places. That's what all other MMOs do; they let you target the items you want to get so that randomness doesn't get excessively obnoxious. This is not an innovation. This has been going on for nearly ten years. Why are we still beholden to dice rolls that hate us? Why do we HAVE to brute force our way to what we want instead of being able to really 'play smart'? It's bad enough that extremely common, extremely worthless items litter the drop tables right next to valuable rare items, as if both are an equivalent reward for survival and defense missions. I'm so beyond sick of being at level 30 on Xini and still being offered complete trash.

[Fiia]

 

A few months ago, DE made a righteous claim, a claim that they wanted to reduce mindless grind within their own game...

Then a bomb was dropped, one with flames that cannot be fanned out. Ember Prime. In order to get ember prime you must run a survival for at least 15 minutes. Then you have 3 different types of keys you can get that won't be capture. On top of that you have two different tiers. You are not guaranteed a t3 key!! 1/8 =  0.125. Meaning you have a 12.5 % chance of getting the key you want.

Then after hours to get 1 capture key that you need, you have to fight the problem of getting ember prime. People have wasted 100 of keys only to get nothing. But DE said they wanted to reduce grind.

Here, here! I totally agree.

I have given up on Ember Prime as the grinding is utterly ridiculous.

I used 11 Captures keys and have thus far gained the Ember Prime blueprint, period.

I have run many Mercury defense missions and have earned 1 T2 Capture key, period.

It honestly appears DE sees incessant grinding as "FUN".

I am teetering here, as I have reinstalled the Witcher games, and three 4x space games and have been playing them more than logging into WF.

For me Grinding is not "FUN".

One has to wonder if DE plays this game as regular gamers have to play?

[NikolaiLev]

Some are citing that without grind, there'd be nothing left to play for.  Because god forbid someone actually plays for, you know, fun.

 

They could introduce things like better AI and interesting, challenging game modes so the game has actual challenge and depth.  But that's far harder to do than just lump on more and more grind, which clearly appeases the majority of gamers.

 

Pleasing the majority of gamers leads to more profit.  The minority who wants something interesting doesn't matter.  They don't represent as much profit.

 

And profit numbs the feeling.

 

 

 

 
Here, here! I totally agree.

I have given up on Ember Prime as the grinding is utterly ridiculous.

I used 11 Captures keys and have thus far gained the Ember Prime blueprint, period.

I have run many Mercury defense missions and have earned 1 T2 Capture key, period.

It honestly appears DE sees incessant grinding as "FUN".

I am teetering here, as I have reinstalled the Witcher games, and three 4x space games and have been playing them more than logging into WF.

For me Grinding is not "FUN".

One has to wonder if DE plays this game as regular gamers have to play?

DE doesn't care about making a fun game.  They care about making a profitable game.  They see sales go up, so they continue implementing grind.  This is how profit-oriented companies work.

Edited December 10, 2013 by NikolaiLev

[Cybernetix]

The trouble is the RNG surrounding the grind.

In an ideal world, you could:

1. Decide that you want to work towards a specific item

2. Work towards the goal of obtaining it

3. Enjoy your shiny new item as a product of the time and effort that you invested.

 

In our current situation you instead have to:

1. Decide that you want to work towards a specific item

2. Work towards the goal of obtaining it

3. Get slapped in the face by fifteen layers of RNG. 

4. Repeat process until you either get lucky and get your item or close warframe and play something else.

 

If I want an item, I want a clear way to get it. If I have to run X of these missions to get this part then so be it. I don't want to run an indeterminate number of a missions that might drop the part because that's just tedious.

[IamSalva]

i kinda like the grind. *waits for people to throw tomatoes at me*

it keeps the game interesting and invest hours into this game. If grinding was fixed i would have been done with this game 100 hours ago and would only launch the game when theres a new patch / dailies.

 

 

This.. i don´t get the ppl complainig about grind... what is left if there is no grind? What will you do when you have it all?

Never i saw a good answer from all the grind complainers.

 

I agree that they should split the drop tables.

This reduces a grind and makes each map more special.

 

Like one Survival only giving out Fusion Cores as Reward, one only Keys and so on. 

This is a thing i would like.

[ThePresident777]

Then DE has failed on a fundamental level in the design and execution of this game.

 

It's a fast-paced co-op action-shooter game.  It's a type of game that should be played because it is fun.

 

Why did people play counter-strike over and over when you couldn't level up in any way shape or form.  Because it was fun.

 

Make Warframe fun.

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!+100000000000000..............

 

I played Team Fortress Classic for years and there is nothing to get or level up in that game.  There was no problem finding good matches for YEARS in that game and there was nothing to get or level.  It was just TONS OF FUN.

 

If people can't see having fun without getting and leveling then those people probably need professional help.  What happened to gamers that they forgot how to game?

[Ishki88]

I see games like TF and CS being brought up.

 

Basically Warframe is losing it's "IT" factor.

 

 

Usually companies start going into overdrive when "sells" drop.

 

Maybe the changes most of the WF community want will be implemented before it's too late....look what happen to Unreal T_T

[Xenores]

So... it's all about repetition and grind. I though pepople love it on other thread...

[LostAlone]

 

If people can't see having fun without getting and leveling then those people probably need professional help.  What happened to gamers that they forgot how to game?

 

Well leveling things can still be enjoyable. It feels good to achieve things, level by level until you are all powerful. It's normal for that stuff to feel good. That's not the same thing as fun though. 

[Renan.Ruivo]

Honorable mention to the fact that if everything was too easy to obtain the game would not have anything of interesting to offer.

 

That said, too much grind is still a problem that needs to be addressed. Just the lesser of evils IMO.

[LostAlone]

So... it's all about repetition and grind. I though pepople love it on other thread...

 

It's complicated. Like all online games WF gets radically more fun when you are playing with friends, or at least people you can talk to. When that's happening, and you can help out newer players or your personal grind means you can contribute more to the team; yeah that's a good feeling. Buuut... Unless you make your own goals (and mostly your own fun) there isn't a lot to really 'love' in WF. It depends on who is talking as to how they feel about it. 

[DJ_Redwire]

Grind doesn't bug me BUT the void drop tables are very over diluted. Nothing else needs changing imo in terms of grind.

[tripletriple]

I think we can all agree then that DE needs to split their drops so if it is a grind fest at least you know you are reaping the benefits of your work.

[KingTaro]

Maybe shifting drop chances would be a good solution.

 

Example, Crawler can drop 3 items, A, B and C.

-initial drop chance of item A: 10%

-initial drop chance of item B: 30%

-initial drop chance of item C: 60%

 

Crawler drops item C, now that C dropped, its chance decreases and the chance of the other 2 increases

-new drop chance item A: 13% (+3%)

-new drop chance item B: 33% (+3%)

-new drop chance item C: 54% (-6%)

 

Now it's the B item that drops:

-new drop chance item A: 16% (+3%)

-new drop chance item B: 27% (-6%)

-new drop chance item C: 57% (+3%)

 

 

Meaning that eventually, time will reward you.

[TunaMayo]

some additional tiers or void missions would not go amiss. saturate the tables a bit.

[LostAlone]

Maybe shifting drop chances would be a good solution.

 

Example, Crawler can drop 3 items, A, B and C.

-initial drop chance of item A: 10%

-initial drop chance of item B: 30%

-initial drop chance of item C: 60%

 

Crawler drops item C, now that C dropped, its chance decreases and the chance of the other 2 increases

-new drop chance item A: 13% (+3%)

-new drop chance item B: 33% (+3%)

-new drop chance item C: 54% (-6%)

 

Now it's the B item that drops:

-new drop chance item A: 16% (+3%)

-new drop chance item B: 27% (-6%)

-new drop chance item C: 57% (+3%)

 

 

Meaning that eventually, time will reward you.

 

You aren't the first one to think of the idea. 

 

There's a couple of good versions of it. The ones I like the best are:

 

1. You select an item you want to be working towards and it gives you a counter. Every time you potentially could have gotten that item as a reward it ticks up one. When you get to 50 or whatever, you get the item if you haven't rolled it yet.

 

2. You get tokens instead of direct prizes and you can buy items with them in a shop. 

[Thelonious]

I don't get it. DE got it fine at some point, when they rewrote the loot tables for defense. 

 

Each faction was supposed to drop only certain items, so that players would know where to look for a specific item.

 

I'm pretty sure there's still a googledoc somewhere, from the time we had datamining, where every faction would only drop 2 different keys.

And then it got all mixed up for some obscure reason, with any survival/defense having aaaaall the keys in their loot table, resulting in a veeeerry low chance to get what we really want.

 

It was something like that.

 

Grineer Survival/Defense would drop Exterminate and Capture

Corpus would drop Mobile Defense and Survival

Infested would drop Defense and...idk, what's left? Well, exterminate again, till they add a new mission type.

 

SO

SIMPLE

 

New mission type? fill in the blank. More? add a couple double entries. But keep it fair.

 

Oh, and even the tiering disappeared with U11!!!

Now you have a chance to get a T2 in high level Survival!!! That's pure bullsh*t.

 

 

It seems to me they tend to use dilution as an excuse for not being able to organize loot tables properly.

Or they simply do it on purpose to artificially increase the longevity of newly released content.

 

I'm more and more inclined to believe the later. Each update it gets worse.

And I won't even begin on mods. Getting contagious spread is just...

[ThePresident777]

Well leveling things can still be enjoyable. It feels good to achieve things, level by level until you are all powerful. It's normal for that stuff to feel good. That's not the same thing as fun though. 

 

Like in a single player game where the levels follow the story.  The sort of leveling I am happy with would be trivial to the grinders or tread millers.

[ThePresident777]

Grind doesn't bug me BUT the void drop tables are very over diluted. Nothing else needs changing imo in terms of grind.

 

It took me 2 days each for Jagged Edge and Heavy Trauma.  I still have no Fever Strike.

[Squig]

I give it a few more hours before a mod blows this off into a different part of the forum under the context of "Moving to the right section" AKA: to die. DE seems to be willfully ignoring this issue with all of their might.

NOTE: I love you mods, but anytime a serious thread about a very real problem gets hauled off to the feedback section you damn it to never be seen by the vast majority.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Squig

[Fiia]

I give it a few more hours before a mod blows this off into a different part of the forum under the context of "Moving to the right section" AKA: to die. DE seems to be willfully ignoring this issue with all of their might.

Man, it feels good to not be the only one who was thinking this very thing. I have had several posts moved away to wither and die because it was moved to the "right section".

[tripletriple]

It seems this issue is just swept under the rug. Like everyone ignores it and moves on, but am I the only one who thinks this needs to fixed asap? This is a game breaking issue.