De, It's Time To Stop Relying On Rng Instead Of Game Design

[SquirmyBurrito]

Just my two cents, but your and Xrylene's statements seem to have a lot in common, just with a different focus : lack of a progression caused by completely RNG based grind shows bad design, and the "features causing it" are the constant band-aid fixes of mostly guns/occasional frame (sometimes with even more RNG, as Detron demonstrates) - at best, there is very little variety in content, at worst, it can have negative impact on the game like the lopsided Invasion system.

 

(Something else worth noting - the Detron was originally not intended as something for players to grind for. However, a significant number of players responded to "stop caring about the Detron" with "there's nothing else left to do in this game".)

 

In regards to the lack of responses by DE as of late - I personally think U12 will be a good testing ground to see how much DE actually tried to address RNG - we already have promises of a new planet, new enemies, more stealth, and Volt/Banshee/"Zephyr" being (hopefully not grindy) clan-tech, and hopefully Melee 2.0 in a later U12 hotfix. I'm personally waiting to see what happens this Wednesday; with any luck, their actions will speak better than their words (of lack thereof) have.

 

This is mostly true. I'm not sure why Xrylene and I find ourselves on opposing sides so often when there is usually only a slight difference in our stances. Maybe Xrylene just doesn't like burritos (obviously joking).

[KTribute]

300th person to upvote this, and still no worthy mention of DE from it. so sad...

[SquirmyBurrito]

300th person to upvote this, and still no worthy mention of DE from it. so sad...

 

DE has addressed the communities concern with RNG numerous times already. They just haven't given us anything concrete as to what methods (if any) they plan on using to fix this issue. I don't blame them since every time they promise (or sound like they're promising) something the community jumps down their throat every day that passes without the promised thing being implemented.

[Xrylene]

DE has addressed the communities concern with RNG numerous times already. They just haven't given us anything concrete as to what methods (if any) they plan on using to fix this issue. I don't blame them since every time they promise (or sound like they're promising) something the community jumps down their throat every day that passes without the promised thing being implemented.

 

Honestly, at this point I don't care what they say they will do, provided they at least communicate their general direction/big changes, because communication is still it's own problem as well. I care much more about what actions are actually taken, and so far I'm not seeing much action, just talk that mostly pushes things off to the side in favour of more of the same.

[RustyNaps]

I quit playing and so have hundreds of other people.

 

We'll come back when DE goes to decision making school and graduates at the head of the class.

[NikolaiLev]

Oh, good I'm not the only person who's noticed they have fewer and fewer "hot topics", and only once in a blue moon actually have a real hot topic in them, although the statements on those are noncommittal shrugs from DE more or less.

 

No, I noticed.  But the silent people who dislike what DE is doing are, unfortunately, just leaving instead of posting.  That makes it look like more people are content than not.

 

Please keep your complaints focused on RNG issues and not other things like Grind (seriously? You're in the wrong genre) and DE's habit of using words like 'soon' rather than 'next week'.

 

RNG and grind are one in the same.  RNG creates more grind, which is not real gameplay and is thus bad.

 

I refuse to accept that grind can be acceptable in any genre.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

RNG and grind are one in the same.  RNG creates more grind, which is not real gameplay and is thus bad.

However not all grind is RNG based.

 

I refuse to accept that grind can be acceptable in any genre.

I disagree, some grind is ok, even a lot of grind can be fine so long as it's fun. However, WF does not fall into the "fun" category for most people, the AI is braindead, 90% of weapons feel the exact same, a hard to acquire weapon is not always better than something easy to acquire (i.e. soma vs supra), you're forced to use a lot of the awful weapons if you want to rank up mastery, and the missions are all pretty much the same.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I refuse to accept that grind can be acceptable in any genre.

 

What KvotheTheArcane1 said and:

If this is how you feel, I STRONGLY urge you to never play [insert most games here]. More specifically avoid anything MMO and/or RPG/a game with 'rpg' elements to it. 

[ZephyrPhantom]

So...yeah.

 

Aside from the whole Frost issue, Update 12 brings us :

 

- Zephyr. Waiting for someone in my clan to hopefully log on and have a Tenno Research Lab soon, but from what I hear if you're at a higher clan tier, your Oxium requirement is not going to look pretty.

 

- "improvements" to drop tables. I am seeing Neurodes, Fusion Cores, and Credit Bundles being dropped in T3 Defense now instead of prime parts, and based on this thread it is now possible for your reward for doing a Void key to be.... another Void key.

 

Mission Control, we have a problem here and it's called "DE decided to dilute to drop tables and extend RNG grind even further."

I'm pretty sure that isn't what people want, based on the 37 pages and 733 replies this thread holds. Looks like we still have a good reason to keep pushing this thread.

Edited February 6, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[SquirmyBurrito]

So...yeah.

 

Aside from the whole Frost issue, Update 12 brings us :

 

- Zephyr. Waiting for someone in my clan to hopefully log on and have a Tenno Research Lab soon, but from what I hear if you're at a higher clan tier, your Oxium requirement is not going to look pretty.

 

- "improvements" to drop tables. I am seeing Neurodes, Fusion Cores, and Credit Bundles being dropped in T3 Defense now instead of prime parts, and based on this thread it is now possible for your reward for doing a Void key to be.... another Void key.

 

Mission Control, we have a problem here and it's called "DE decided to dilute to drop tables and extend RNG grind even further."

I'm pretty sure that isn't what people want, based on the 37 pages and 733 replies this thread holds. Looks like we still have a good reason to keep pushing this thread.

 

What did they add to the void drop tables? IIRC all the new content was put into clan tech. I would have expected this change to (slightly) appease the RNG extremists in here. The only people I expected to complain about it where those people who were (hilariously) anti-grind.

[Yezzik]

I wonder... say DE assigned each loot item to a different mission currently in game. Likely only a temporary fix, but how temporary?

 

(If nothing else, it'd sort out the oversaturation of the loot tables)

[Xrylene]

What did they add to the void drop tables? IIRC all the new content was put into clan tech. I would have expected this change to (slightly) appease the RNG extremists in here. The only people I expected to complain about it where those people who were (hilariously) anti-grind.

 

They added resources, credits, fusion cores, and keys. Meaning now you aren't even guaranteed a void exclusive reward, you could now just get a fusion core, neurode, or a T2 key in a T3 mission.

 

It doesn't do anything to appease people, RNG hating or otherwise, because it's just strictly worse. People complained about dilution, and so they diluted it with even more stuff, and this time not even extra prime gear, instead it's common stuff you can get in regular missions.

 

As for the clan tech, the only complaints there at the moment stem from the oxium costs and wait time to get warframes from it, currently it costs 600 oxium to make zephyr, 260 at smallest caln size to research her blueprints, and of course you have to wait three days to research the blueprint, then three days to research the components, then 12 hours to build the components, and then another three days to make her, including making the lab it takes 10.5 days, which frustrates players because it, combined with the costs, seems like an attempt to money grab by frustrated players.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Xrylene

[SquirmyBurrito]

They added resources, credits, fusion cores, and keys. Meaning now you aren't even guaranteed a void exclusive reward, you could now just get a fusion core, neurode, or a T2 key in a T3 mission.

 

It doesn't do anything to appease people, RNG hating or otherwise, because it's just strictly worse. People complained about dilution, and so they diluted it with even more stuff, and this time not even extra prime gear, instead it's common stuff you can get in regular missions.

 

As for the clan tech, the only complaints there at the moment stem from the oxium costs and wait time to get warframes from it, currently it costs 600 oxium to make zephyr, 260 at smallest caln size to research her blueprints, and of course you have to wait three days to research the blueprint, then three days to research the components, then 12 hours to build the components, and then another three days to make her, including making the lab it takes 10.5 days, which frustrates players because it, combined with the costs, seems like an attempt to money grab by frustrating players.

 

I thought that was on accident.

I definitely agree with you on the bit about Zephyr. Well... I did until I saw that last bit about money grabbing. So I agree with everything you said about Zephyr except that last bit (I underlined it).

 

Okay, I went back and read it and now I'm a bit confused. Did you mean to say ", seems like an attempt to money grab to frustrated players." or are you saying it seems (to you) like an attempt at money grabbing. If it is the latter, I disagree with you. If it is the former, I can definitely see how frustrated players may arrive at that conclusion. I myself would rather she have just been added to RNG drop tables, yes, I know you guys wouldn't have liked it very much. [cut out a lot of stuff that seemed more QQ than constructive criticism]

[homiedudemanguy]

i definitely see your points and what youre getting at but i think thats what theyve been trying to do and these contents are just to keep us busy until they roll out the new replayability content that livens and brings out the game such as the universe, lores, systems, and even mechanics. actually as of now they even have a new process that theyre working on that was posted on the design council if youd like to check it out. its a pretty interesting read.

[SquirmyBurrito]

i definitely see your points and what youre getting at but i think thats what theyve been trying to do and these contents are just to keep us busy until they roll out the new replayability content that livens and brings out the game such as the universe, lores, systems, and even mechanics. actually as of now they even have a new process that theyre working on that was posted on the design council if youd like to check it out. its a pretty interesting read.

 

Quite the read.

[Xrylene]

I thought that was on accident.

I definitely agree with you on the bit about Zephyr. Well... I did until I saw that last bit about money grabbing. So I agree with everything you said about Zephyr except that last bit (I underlined it).

 

Okay, I went back and read it and now I'm a bit confused. Did you mean to say ", seems like an attempt to money grab to frustrated players." or are you saying it seems (to you) like an attempt at money grabbing. If it is the latter, I disagree with you. If it is the former, I can definitely see how frustrated players may arrive at that conclusion. I myself would rather she have just been added to RNG drop tables, yes, I know you guys wouldn't have liked it very much. [cut out a lot of stuff that seemed more QQ than constructive criticism]

 

it was the former, I typoed, it's corrected now. I've already seen several pots from people saying that the wait times and costs seem like a money grab to them, or are the reason for why they will be purchasing her with platinum, so the idea is definitely there. Personally, I think it very well could be, I do think the rare mods being bundled with the expensive platinum packs in the past were an attempt to money grab, because they knew there would be people willing to spend a lot of money just to get those there and then. I do think the prime access pack is a money grab, done alongside the terrible drop rates in order to frustrate players into impulse buying it. So it wouldn't surprise me if this was something similar.

 

As for the RNG drop tables, let me put this out there for you. Let's say for the sake of argument that a rare void drop is a 15%, an uncommon is 35%, and a common is 50%. If we got one token each time, a rare could cost 6, an uncommon could cost 3, and a common would cost 2. This would lock the number of runs required to get any individual item, while leaving unlimited room to expand the number of items in the pool, the problem at that point would be reduced from being boring, grindy, and frustrating due to not getting lucky, to simply boring and grindy, which could still be alleviated by creating a greater mission type variety, or improving the game experience itself.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Xrylene

[Ganpot]

Sadly, I agree with everything stated in the OP.  It has become more and more apparent to me as time goes on that DE either won't put in the serious work required to fix core issues, or that they are incapable of recognizing such issues in the first place.  DE started out with such an insanely promising idea, but they've been squandering it ever since.  Every new system which comes out is simply a new way to deepen RNG and grind.  System revamps have been a joke: unfinished, unbalanced, and (in my honest opinion) constructed with an abundance of laziness.  At this point, DE are slapping band-aids on top of band-aids on top of band-aids, when the underlying wound has long since begun to rot. 

 

I'm seriously considering taking a long break from Warframe.  I'll probably go try out Rift some more (it seemed decent when I dabbled in it before), or maybe give up on MMOs altogether (I've never been a massive fan of the genre, to be honest).  I don't know if I'll be sticking around until Melee 2.0, but if that is as big of a disappointment as every other revamped system has been (and who are we kidding, of course it will be), then I'll certainly be stopping at that point. 

 

Only a sadist gets pleasure from watching a train-wreck in slow motion.  And only a masochist gets pleasure from being inside that train with foreknowledge of what is about to occur. 

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

it was the former, I typoed, it's corrected now. I've already seen several pots from people saying that the wait times and costs seem like a money grab to them, or are the reason for why they will be purchasing her with platinum, so the idea is definitely there. Personally, I think it very well could be, I do think the rare mods being bundled with the expensive platinum packs in the past were an attempt to money grab, because they knew there would be people willing to spend a lot of money just to get those there and then. I do think the prime access pack is a money grab, done alongside the terrible drop rates in order to frustrate players into impulse buying it. So it wouldn't surprise me if this was something similar.

 

As for the RNG drop tables, let me put this out there for you. Let's say for the sake of argument that a rare void drop is a 15%, an uncommon is 35%, and a common is 50%. If we got one token each time, a rare could cost 6, an uncommon could cost 3, and a common would cost 2. This would lock the number of runs required to get any individual item, while leaving unlimited room to expand the number of items in the pool, the problem at that point would be reduced from being boring, grindy, and frustrating due to not getting lucky, to simply boring and grindy, which could still be alleviated by creating a greater mission type variety, or improving the game experience itself.

 

I feel the same way about Prime Access Pack. It's pretty awful that Prime Access affect drop tables and i never buy it because of that :/ It's pretty bad decision but sadly it works.

 

They basically fix dilution with adding more dilution. What is the point of void now? Farming keys to get more keys, really?

 

What i personaly want is more challange=reward system i want to get something based on my effort not rng.

 

P.S I'm really sorry form my english and short post :)

[ZephyrPhantom]

In regards to the rewards :

 

Void Reward Changes:

- Changes to Void Mission Rewards: Capture, Exterminate, and Mobile Defense missions no longer contain Resources/Cores as mission rewards, only Prime Parts, Forma, or a Key.

For Survival and Defense missions, staying at least 15 minutes/15 waves guarantees a Prime Part, Forma or a Key. Resources, Cores, or Credits are included in the cycling of mission rewards for Survival/Defense.

 

In summation:

All Void missions have had Keys added to their droptables. (So playing a key to get another key was intended.)

Survival now has resources and keys added to it's droptable in addition to the credit bundles and cores.

Defense basically lets you extract early with a resource or play the usual 15 waves for the 'new' droptable (Keys).

 

Why do we now have Void Keys diluting all Void missions and easily farmable resources like Neurodes in Survival?  That results in less prime parts being dropped by RNG and more frustrating Void grinding happening, not the other way around...

Edited February 7, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[SquirmyBurrito]

it was the former, I typoed, it's corrected now. I've already seen several pots from people saying that the wait times and costs seem like a money grab to them, or are the reason for why they will be purchasing her with platinum, so the idea is definitely there. Personally, I think it very well could be, I do think the rare mods being bundled with the expensive platinum packs in the past were an attempt to money grab, because they knew there would be people willing to spend a lot of money just to get those there and then. I do think the prime access pack is a money grab, done alongside the terrible drop rates in order to frustrate players into impulse buying it. So it wouldn't surprise me if this was something similar.

 

As for the RNG drop tables, let me put this out there for you. Let's say for the sake of argument that a rare void drop is a 15%, an uncommon is 35%, and a common is 50%. If we got one token each time, a rare could cost 6, an uncommon could cost 3, and a common would cost 2. This would lock the number of runs required to get any individual item, while leaving unlimited room to expand the number of items in the pool, the problem at that point would be reduced from being boring, grindy, and frustrating due to not getting lucky, to simply boring and grindy, which could still be alleviated by creating a greater mission type variety, or improving the game experience itself.

 

I guess you and I will have to disagree then, I don't see any of those things as a money grab. Adding extra incentive to plat purchases is just good marketing. It's not like those things weren't still obtainable the normal way. The prime access thing seems like a huge issue with some people, but prime access being made available didn't change anything. People could (and did) still farm for their Ember primes. I don't think DE purposely f-ed up drop rates just so they could make some money.

 

(doing this out of order, so bear with me)

The rare mods thing also did not seem like a money grab primarily because those mods were not the kind of mods that would be considered "must haves" (handspring is nice, but definitely not a necessity). IIRC those mod were not obtainable in game for a bit so grind-frustrated players wouldn't factor in to this equation. 

 

The only thing plat purchases seem to do is give the player convenience (and cosmetics).

 

Realistically, if DE was all about making money there are much quicker/more efficient ways for them to make money off this game (without changing from a Free to play).

[SquirmyBurrito]

In regards to the rewards :

 

 

In summation:

All Void missions have had Keys added to their droptables. (So playing a key to get another key was intended.)

Survival now has resources and keys added to it's droptable in addition to the credit bundles and cores.

Defense basically lets you extract early with a resource or play the usual 15 waves for the 'new' droptable (Keys).

 

Why do we now have Void Keys diluting all Void missions and easily farmable resources like Neurodes in Survival?  That results in less prime parts being dropped by RNG and more frustrating Void grinding happening, not the other way around...

 

Keys being dropped was a large request from the community. They were frustrated with the difficulty of farming for keys before. Mats wouldn't actually be affecting your ability to get prime parts at the 15 minute/wave mark. The quote specifically said you're guaranteed to get either a key, forma, or prime part at the 15 minute/wave mark. Resources were not included in that guarantee. Please read carefully before making a complaint.

Edited February 7, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[ZephyrPhantom]

Keys being dropped was a large request from the community. They were frustrated with the difficulty of farming for keys before. Mats wouldn't actually be affecting your ability to get prime parts at the 15 minute/wave mark. The quote specifically said you're guaranteed to get either a key, forma, or prime part at the 15 minute/wave mark. Resources were not included in that guarantee. Please read carefully before making a complaint.

You're fine with doing a T3 Cap Key to get another T3 Cap key? To be fair, I suppose it beats having another redundant prime part, but I'm going to have to think about that one.

 

As for survival - it's a guaranteed part at the cost of harder chances for prime parts before and after 15 minutes. To me, it sounds more like RNG was just shifted around than actually made better - we get a guaranteed part for a run, yes, but it could still be one we already have. I'd much rather have more chances to get parts vs. ocassional cores/credits/maybe keys than have all those chances diluted up even further with resources all for the sake of one "guaranteed" (yet still chance based) drop.

[SquirmyBurrito]

You're fine with doing a T3 Cap Key to get another T3 Cap key? To be fair, I suppose it beats having another redundant prime part, but I'm going to have to think about that one.

 

As for survival - it's a guaranteed part at the cost of harder chances for prime parts before and after 15 minutes. To me, it sounds more like RNG was just shifted around than actually made better - we get a guaranteed part for a run, yes, but it could still be one we already have. I'd much rather have more chances to get parts vs. ocassional cores/credits/maybe keys than have all those chances diluted up even further with resources all for the sake of one "guaranteed" (yet still chance based) drop.

 

I know it isn't the best reward, but at least it lets me try again without wasting any resources (other than time I guess).

 

Wouldn't that mean you should just play to 20-25 (can't remember which Sheldon said during the stream) instead of sticking around for longer?

[IIJetfireII]

RESURRECTION.

[NikolaiLev]

However not all grind is RNG based.

 

I disagree, some grind is ok, even a lot of grind can be fine so long as it's fun. However, WF does not fall into the "fun" category for most people, the AI is braindead, 90% of weapons feel the exact same, a hard to acquire weapon is not always better than something easy to acquire (i.e. soma vs supra), you're forced to use a lot of the awful weapons if you want to rank up mastery, and the missions are all pretty much the same.

 

It's true.  That said, if grind is fun, I don't see it as grind.  It's just gameplay.  Grind is only grind when its repetitiveness and mindlessness causes it to be unfun, and for me, that threshold is pretty easy to reach unless some form of challenge exists.

 

What KvotheTheArcane1 said and:

If this is how you feel, I STRONGLY urge you to never play [insert most games here]. More specifically avoid anything MMO and/or RPG/a game with 'rpg' elements to it. 

 

Most games do not include grind, unless you only play AAA games.  As for MMOs and RPGs?  Yes, I do avoid those.

 

Games like Red Orchestra 2, Dark Souls, Natural Selection 2, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, Risk of Rain, Heroes of Newerth, and so on include very little or no grind whatsoever.  Just because Generic Shooters started including horribad unlock systems doesn't mean most games do.