Nerf The Vanguard Rhino Helm

[Dalewyn]

As a user of Rhino and having recently acquired the Vanguard Rhino Helmet, I suggest with all due respect: Nerf the movement speed bonus.

 

I don't suggest this lightly. In fact I absolutely hate how slow Rhino moves even with Rush equipped. Before I got the Vanguard helm, it always felt refreshing to change over to Excalibur or another of my more mobile frames and actually run as fast or faster than my other teammates. There was a clear distinction between mobile and slow-tank frames.

 

With my acquisition of the Vanguard helmet however, I am now completely outrunning everyone short of a Volt with his Speed up or a fully decked out Loki or Ash. I run faster than Excalibur, the supposedly mobile melee DPS counterpart to the slow melee tank that Rhino is. I run faster than Valkyr, who is supposedly an all-in punch-crap-to-death warframe. This ridiculous movement speed buff from Vanguard has effectively made all my other less tanky "mobile" frames completely pointless besides the novelty.

 

So please, nerf the movement speed bonus on Vanguard Rhino Helmet. Rhino can use a slight movement speed buff for a trade-off, his default movement speed is indeed atrocious, but Rhino should not be so quick and agile that he puts almost all of the other supposed-to-be-mobile frames to shame.

 

Also, inb4 "if u dont like it dont use it" posts.

[noelpilled]

Even if you are running faster than them, they're probably not using rush, and if they were would probably outrun you.

[Ronyn]

Back in closed beta the rhino wasn't a slow runner. Frame speed was more normalized.

When they switched him to being slow it was quite a disappointment for a lot of us.

The Vanguard helmet is a way for us to get back what we had...and we appreciate it a lot.

 

 

FYI Vanguard rhino still wont outrun frames like loki.

As for excaliber and Vlakyr perhaps you should be asking yourself why they have the speed they have and whether it is right for them.

 

Also, who ever said that rhino was supposed to be slow? That isn't in his description anywhere.

[Dalewyn]

Back in closed beta the rhino wasn't a slow runner. Frame speed was more normalized.

When they switched him to being slow it was quite a disappointment for a lot of us.

I am from closed beta as well, and a friend of mine picked up Rhino a long time ago back in CB. The first thing he talked to me about Rhino was his slow speed. Otherwise, I remember Rhino being slower-than-average for as long as I can remember.

 

FYI Vanguard rhino still wont outrun frames like loki.

I never said I did, read the post before replying kthx.

 

As for excaliber and Vlakyr perhaps you should be asking yourself why they have the speed they have and whether it is right for them.

Excalibur is billed as a "perfect balance of mobility and offense", that's straight from the client by the way. His Slash Dash and Super Jump further reinforce his strong mobility and "lightning bruiser" style.

 

As for Valkyr, her mobility is justified in that she needs to either dodge enemy fire or dispatch enemies quickly due to her rather terrible shield capacity; yes, she might have more armor than every warframe currently out, but anyone knows health-tanking sucks &#! in the current meta.

 

[taiiat]

Back in closed beta the rhino wasn't a slow runner. Frame speed was more normalized.

not really. faster frames were blazing fast, slower frames were only minorly slow.

 

now the difference is less extreme, for good reason. there is a .4 difference between almost all frames in the game for their Sprint Speed.

 

i'm glad we don't have Loki at 1.6 anymore. with Rush he'd go fast enough to warp and cause collision issues due to ping.

he'd also look dumb as hell with the running animation going all kinds of goofy because he'd be moving faster than player update ticks.

 

and Vanguard doesn't let Rhino (only Rhino mind you, it's not like Frost has one of these helmets) get back what you had. it lets you get faster than what you had. (edit: - wait a second, i had that backwards. so many updates to remember. Frost and Rhino are 0.9 now, and were 0.8 before the Sprint Speed changes. so they've actually gotten faster since way back in Closed Beta. so now that just makes the whole situation very confusing - wanting what you had back, would be going slower).

this helmet doesn't bring Rhino back to 0.9, it brings him up to 1.12. that's ~0.2 faster than he was in Closed Beta.

 

that justification has gaping holes in it.

Edited December 31, 2013 by taiiat

[rhoenix]

To me, the tradeoff between Power Strength (which fuels things like Iron Skin) is balanced out well by the increase to run speed. While some of the other helmets for other frames need work, this one is a large bonus, balanced out by a large downside.

I don't think this particular helmet needs editing, since even with it equipped, you won't be outrunning a Loki unless you put Rush on.

[Ketec]

there we go. .another nerf thread which results  in DE nerfing rino to oblivion.. just cuz they saw nerf and rhino in the same sentence.

 

 

Rather then nerf.. .others need an actual boost.

[taiiat]

balanced out by a large downside.

even though it calculates before Power Strength mods, 5% is really not much.

 

Charge loses 32.5 damage.

Iron Skin loses 60HP.

Roar loses 2.5% boost.

Stomp loses 40 damage.

 

while this does minutely increase after you add Power Strength mods (compared to what it could be in total), the loss... is negligible.

 

these stats are overall designed as such, a reasonable bonus, with not a major negative.

except i'd argue the Vanguard helmet has the biggest bonus, and is tied for the smallest negative.

 

 

i'm mostly nonplussed either way, but i'm being objective on my opinion of the stats.

Edited December 31, 2013 by taiiat

[Ronyn]

not really. faster frames were blazing fast, slower frames were only minorly slow.

 

now the difference is less extreme, for good reason. there is a .4 difference between almost all frames in the game for their Sprint Speed.

 

i'm glad we don't have Loki at 1.6 anymore. with Rush he'd go fast enough to warp and cause collision issues due to ping.

he'd also look dumb as hell with the running animation going all kinds of goofy because he'd be moving faster than player update ticks.

 

and Vanguard doesn't let Rhino (only Rhino mind you, it's not like Frost has one of these helmets) get back what you had. it lets you get faster than what you had. 

this helmet doesn't bring Rhino back to 0.9, it brings him up to 1.12. that's ~0.2 faster than he was in Closed Beta.

 

that justification has gaping holes in it.

My "justification" is fine, you're misrepresenting my points.

You may use accurate numbers but it does not mask the fact that they aren't actually contrary to what I said.

 

I said frame speed was "more normalized" back then. I did not say "completely standardized".

Depending on which stage we refer to there was more or less difference between the frames speed and speed of game overall.

As for getting back what I lost: that was a statement of of the general sense of rhino not a statement of exact velocity.

Remember that we are looking at movement speed comparatively...

so despite speed being different in many different ways across many different frames...

and there are now way more frames than before who fall into different places on the ranking system...

rhino being a combination of speed and power, in the general sense, remains.

 

 

I am from closed beta as well, and a friend of mine picked up Rhino a long time ago back in CB. The first thing he talked to me about Rhino was his slow speed. Otherwise, I remember Rhino being slower-than-average for as long as I can remember.

 

As I explain above, there have been a lot of changes in the speed of the game, individual frames, and the addition of frames.

 

I never said I did, read the post before replying kthx.

 

You referenced "fully stocked"..you were overselling through implication. but hey whatever.

 

 

Excalibur is billed as a "perfect balance of mobility and offense", that's straight from the client by the way. His Slash Dash and Super Jump further reinforce his strong mobility and "lightning bruiser" style.

 

As for Valkyr, her mobility is justified in that she needs to either dodge enemy fire or dispatch enemies quickly due to her rather terrible shield capacity; yes, she might have more armor than every warframe currently out, but anyone knows health-tanking sucks &#! in the current meta.

Excalibur is supposed to be mobile, I didn't argue otherwise. So then my first question would be: is he more or less "mobile" than vanguard rhino? (mobility is obviously more than simply base move speed)

Second question: if rhino didn't exist would you be happy with Excaliburs speed or would you still feel he should be faster?

 

Valkyr is...well I think shes kind of a mess right now. Again I ask the same two questions about her I asked about Excalibur.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those two frames are quite right. Its just that I don't feel vanguard rhinos speed is problematic for the role he is fulfilling.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Now look guys. I'm not interested in some asinine semantics debate. 

Vanguard Rhino is fast but not the fastest. That is the overall <feeling> that I am looking to keep from an earlier stage of beta.

 

If we want to talk about balance we can, Id be happy to....but lets not harp on word play.

 

 

these stats are overall designed as such, a reasonable bonus, with not a major negative.

except i'd argue the Vanguard helmet has the biggest bonus, and is tied for the smallest negative.

In general I am not entirely happy with most of the helmet effects.

Many of them seem lackluster. I think Rhinos stands out largely because his actually matters while so many others aren't so gameplay changing.

My personal preference is that we get more effect out of the other helmets...

Edited December 31, 2013 by Ronyn

[rhoenix]

even though it calculates before Power Strength mods, 5% is really not much.

 

Charge loses 32.5 damage.

Iron Skin loses 60HP.

Roar loses 2.5% boost.

Stomp loses 40 damage.

 

while this does minutely increase after you add Power Strength mods (compared to what it could be in total), the loss... is negligible.

 

these stats are overall designed as such, a reasonable bonus, with not a major negative.

except i'd argue the Vanguard helmet has the biggest bonus, and is tied for the smallest negative.

 

 

i'm mostly nonplussed either way, but i'm being objective on my opinion of the stats.

The loss in Power Strength is most quickly felt in high-level missions, so I feel it still balances out. I don't think it needs a nerf; but rather, the helmets available for other Frames should be more useful by comparison.

[WarGrylls]

 

The Vanguard Rhino Helm granting movement speed is fine as is, plus asking DE to look at one alt helm with stats will probably cause look-ats  toward all stat helms. they already said that they,in a live-stream if i remember right, that they regret doing so and were gonna stop adding alt stats to helms and begun with the Flux Nova and Raknis Nekros helms.

 

Also, the drop in power from the helm balances having a movement bonus, especially when the helm compromises his role as a tank/guardian/bullet-sponge/meatshield/however anyone wishes to put it, and the Rhino Stomp is not no longer a big of a killer ulti already due to no longer having armor ignore and being a blast type attack, which is barely any bonus in the entire game and only a bonus to grineer machines and Ancient Toxics and Disruptors. Stomping using a vanguard helm is a poor choice and only become a stun utility earlier in the game rather than later like normal helm wearing Rhinos.

 

"But-but but.. he can roar-stomp combo!"

 

Yes, but apply that same thing to a Non-Vanguard Rhino. instead of a 150% stomps, vanguards are doing around 137.75% stomps. Also, his signature tank defense move, Iron Skin, is compromised as well. losing 60 dmg from his 1200 skin health.

 

There's his charge, but I'm seeing replies as I'm typing this so I'll hope other ppl will cover the whole schtick about his skills.

 

Rather than focusing on Rhino's movement speeds in your build and wearing the alt helm, use the helm as a replacement for the rush mod and apply a full Focus mod in Rush's place. That way, he's not as fast as he could be and his powers are improved as if ranked up once more passed their max.

 

 In short, unless you co-op with speed lokis or speed novas a lot, DO NOT focus on speed with the Vanguard Rhino. Make sure he can take a hit can dish it back even more as well as survive onslaughts long enough to get his Iron Skin back on. Believe me, speed isn't everything with a Vanguard Rhino Helm on.

[taiiat]

The loss in Power Strength is most quickly felt in high-level missions, so I feel it still balances out. I don't think it needs a nerf; but rather, the helmets available for other Frames should be more useful by comparison.

in high level missions, the 100 something extra HP Iron Skin would have or the extra 100 something Damage your skills  would have, or the extra ~8-10% Roar would have in boost - won't save you. the enemies are already going to destroy you basically instantly, Iron Skin having another hundred or so Health won't really change that. 

 

 

i think we've been increasing all of the numbers for 13 months too long.

simply not introducing questionable items in the first place would remove situations of 'increase everything to match one item'

 

some of these stats absolutely are piddly compared to others. the Volts' Storm Helmet is pretty measly, as an ideal example. 

but differences don't have any need to be major, for things that well, make a major difference. the Helmet stats that provide extra energy, provide pretty negligible amounts of extra energy. while some others that target more direct, powerful aspects of gameplay, have larger effects.

 

the more direct, core a stat is to the gameplay, the less it should be getting changed. Utility ones actually need those 'large' changes for anyone to actually notice anything to speak of. 

 

as, yno, you'd notice 5% more damage on your gun a lot more than you would 5% on Magazine size. 

 

i have no intentions to ruin anyones' 'playstyle' (though honestly if you need the Vanguard Helmet exactly as is to have fun in Warframe, that would be peculiar), but some things are clearly outright 'superior' to others.

 

 

just as if these groups of stats were, say:

+25% Power Strength, compared to +25% Stamina, +25% Power Efficiency, +25% Max Energy, +25% Shield Capacity, +25% Health Capacity

 

obviously some of these are just outright better. especially since all of these stats are before mods, so the bonuses from things like Health/Shields, Energy Capacity, etc - are pretty meager.

 

edit:

stop adding alt stats to helms

yes, but those stats are highly unlikely (the backlash would be pretty nasty) to be removed from the game, so we can expect all Warframes in the future to have two(possibly more in the future? who knows) different 'upgrades' they can choose from, that alter the frame in some ways. 

so they'll still be there. just in a different area of the game, tied to something else.

Edited December 31, 2013 by taiiat

[Dalewyn]

 

So then my first question would be: is he more or less "mobile" than vanguard rhino? (mobility is obviously more than simply base move speed)

Second question: if rhino didn't exist would you be happy with Excaliburs speed or would you still feel he should be faster?

 

Way too much walls of text to look through at the moment so I'll just reply to this for now, may or may not read the other posts later:

 

1. Given that Super Jump is highly situational, I believe we can ignore that. Slash Dash and Rhino Charge are mostly equal not considering the different ways they distribute damage. The only thing remaining then is movement speed, which I tested myself as I play both Excalibur and Rhino a lot. Vanguard Rhino was in fact faster than Excalibur. My answer thus is that Vanguard Rhino is in fact more "mobile" than the supposedly "perfect balance of mobility and offense" that Excalibur is and I view that as a problem, Rhino is not supposed to be outshining Excalibur's highlight mobility (or anyone else's mobility for that matter).

 

2. I am perfectly happy with Excalibur's speed, never was unhappy with it and I wouldn't be asking for a change on it any time soon.

 

EDIT:

Also, the drop in power from the helm balances having a movement bonus, especially when the helm compromises his role as a tank/guardian/bullet-sponge/meatshield/however anyone wishes to put it, and the Rhino Stomp is not no longer a big of a killer ulti already due to no longer having armor ignore and being a blast type attack, which is barely any bonus in the entire game and only a bonus to grineer machines and Ancient Toxics and Disruptors. Stomping using a vanguard helm is a poor choice and only become a stun utility earlier in the game rather than later like normal helm wearing Rhinos.

The -5% power strength is negligible, might as well not be there (especially if you're also running max Focus and/or Blind Rage).

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dalewyn

[Ronyn]

1. Given that Super Jump is highly situational, I believe we can ignore that. Slash Dash and Rhino Charge are mostly equal not considering the different ways they distribute damage. The only thing remaining then is movement speed, which I tested myself as I play both Excalibur and Rhino a lot. Vanguard Rhino was in fact faster than Excalibur. My answer thus is that Vanguard Rhino is in fact more "mobile" than the supposedly "perfect balance of mobility and offense" that Excalibur is and I view that as a problem, Rhino is not supposed to be outshining Excalibur's highlight mobility (or anyone else's mobility for that matter).

 

2. I am perfectly happy with Excalibur's speed, never was unhappy with it and I wouldn't be asking for a change on it any time soon.

Super jump is indeed situational and I think that is part of excaliburs problem.

In the right situations super jump grants Excalibur all kinds of vertical mobility that only two other frames (valkyr/nova) can come close to matching.

BUT in the wrong situation super jump is a novelty at best. This is a lack in Excalibur that DE should work on to make it more consistently useful.

If, for example, it could be aimed in more directions instead of just up it could become directional mobility in the way that Valkyrs ripline is.

If, for example, it could lead into a downward ground slam move it would offer Excalibur a new "death from above" style of attack...

(yeah I know the melee attack can be done from up there and a certain mod helps with that..etc..but its no substitute for giving Excalibur a REAL power from up there) 

 

Rhino Charge and Slash Dash are actually quite different in terms of mobility (IE: distance covered/ self placement utility).

Partly because slash dash will go farther depending on the mods but mostly because slash dash will travel through enemies where charge will not.

Slash dash can be used to re-position excalibur in ways that rhino charge simply cannot.

This shouldn't be under appreciated.

 

Putting it all together: Right now it is debatable that Vanguard Rhino, even with his move speed, consistently outshines Excalibur in overall mobility. that, like super jump, is highly situation. If and when super jump gets the proper attention it deserves things should shift even more onto excals side.

 

As for rhino "not supposed to be outshining anybodies mobility"...That is a matter of preference on how you view his role.

From my point of view Rhinos power set denotes that he needs to "get there" to be effective.

Where frost can turn a single spot into a bastion of defense Rhino needs to put his body in between the ally and the enemy.

Where the caster types can hurl balls of death across the room rhino relies on getting up close to do his business.

Vanguard Rhino is a human wrecking ball. A freight train on two legs. That is the idea behind it IMO. An idea that i enjoy.

 

Again, I don't believe that vanguard rhino speed is a problem for his role. I do however feel that there are many frames who aren't doing so well at theirs. There is a common problem in Warframe. The frames who are actually capable of doing their job make the frames who aren't as effective in their jobs as they should be look even worse.

For example: regardless of whether Nova needs a nerf or not it is the poorly done power scaling on so many of the other frames and the darn elemental resistance issues of their powers that lets them become so weak against high level enemies.

So Nova being the best/only viable choice to nuke high level content isn't just about her. Its about the other frames lack of impact.

[Zedera]

How many other frames have helmets that convey such powerful buffs upon the wearer? I can't think of any off the top of my head that match how drastically the Vanguard Rhino Helm improves the Rhino, which is already a very powerful frame. Since DE seems set on not making any future helmets that buff/debuff, it would be unlikely that they'll look into helmet balancing, since it's always been somewhat of a novelty thing for them. But I sure would like some nice powerful helmets on some other frames.

[WarGrylls]

The -5% power strength is negligible, might as well not be there (especially if you're also running max Focus and/or Blind Rage).

Even with a power strength mod, the -5% from the alt helm means that he's going into combat with less damage, protection, and support potential compared to a default and Thrak helm Rhino, making him a hindrance to himself and any 2/3/4-man team when there are other frames, stat helms or not, who can outshine Vanguard Rhinos in mobility and offense. There's Locust Ash, Chorus Banshee, and Essence Loki as far as frames with helms... Saryn(with and w.o helms), Nova..

 

Edit: Pendragon Excalibur, Storm Volt, Coil mag/(prime)...

Edited December 31, 2013 by WarGrylls

[Inberun]

Go nerf yourself pls.

[HillsAndTheSea]

 for example, it could lead into a downward ground slam move it would offer Excalibur a new "death from above" style of attack...

 

 

*ahem*

 

 

heavy impact

 

 

jokes aside, DE had the right idea, but having it cost another mod slot and 9 mod points at that was terrible at best. the fact that you need to have a max super jump with max focus (thats 29 mod points and 3 slots) to effectively use what is still a situational ability didnt really help either

Edited December 31, 2013 by HillsAndTheSea

[Ronyn]

*ahem*

 

 

heavy impact

 

Yup.lol

 

( a certain mod

 

 

 

 

jokes aside, DE had the right idea, but having it cost another mod slot and 9 mod points at that was terrible at best. the fact that you need to have a max super jump with max focus (thats 29 mod points and 3 slots) to effectively use what is still a situational ability didnt really help either

Exactly.

[ZT0100]

I support this completely. As much as I enjoy being saved by a speedy Rhino, the helmet needs a nerf. 25% speed boost is crazy for a tank! Rhino is like .9 speed, and 25% bonus makes it 1.125, which I believe is 4th place in speed behind Loki, Nova, and Ash. 10% okay, but 25%?!?! Pls nerf it, DE. I am crying as I am writing this.

[WarGrylls]

As much as I enjoy being saved by a speedy Rhino, the helmet needs a nerf.

SSsssoooo yooou want... to be dead on the field 'cause the guardian tanks can't get to you any longer... and like the idea... of mission fails due to lack of available hands to contribute to missions since they have fallen on the field... what?

[fatpig84]

Nerframe and Rhino is still slower than my rush loki.

Even when he is fitted with rush.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

as for all nerf threads :

no thanks.

 

Just give the other frames cool helmets too :)

[AuroraSonicBoom]

That it has to happen is out of the question, but I think they will combine that nerf with the addition of more warframe mod slots to soften the inevitable backlash of "baww-I-can't-be-faster-than-80%-of-the-frames-anymore"-Rhino players. Gotta wrap that pill in a piece of baloney, right? Of course by the time they'd make that change coptering would need to have been already fixed/nerfed as well, otherwise it would render the point moot. But chances of that happening soon are pretty good since they're reworking the melee system. So yeah, I'd expect things in that regard to change quite Soon.

[Pure]

Nerframe and Rhino is still slower than my rush loki.

Even when he is fitted with rush.

 

umm you do know the loki is supposed to be faster?  frames that are tanky like rhino should be slow.