An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Renan.Ruivo]

So hotfix added... Snow invasion? Pardon me sir but thats doesnt count like "Sugestion been implemented in hotfix" - I am 99% sure that was an overlook from DE side, snow lvl should have been in invasion system to begin with. So no, NIO!

 

And the fact that "those small changes that would help alot" take forever to implement (if ever) says alot about how concerned Devs about our quality of life.

 

Also - WTF does "Feedback section too big" mean? You have the hot-topics tech in forum to make basic filtering. Some issues are brough up again and again, again and again, again and again and again and ag.... where was I? Ah! Its not like we got tons of great new ideas all the time - we also constantly rant about old stuff that we want to improve overall expirience. Can atleast some of the older issues be looked at? 

 

I am sorry that you look at it this way. I'm not denying that there are problems, because there are (dooh.jpeg. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist).

 

But you are making a few claims that are just completely untrue. The biggest issue in my book is the developers' (good hearted) desire to surprise the community with their plans, but as we have seen this does not work. We require 100% transparency regarding their plans, and on the instances where this happened it has proven to be a great success. THAT is feedback that we should be giving them more than ever at this point.

 

I say this because yes, they care about QoL. But they might be unsure about what to say to the community due to fear of what the response will be, so they think "let's just push this and hope for the best". We need to assure them and give them incentive to talk to us and, even more importantly, we need to put up a good act of politeness and show them that talking about everything while it's on the initial design state is what's on everyone's best interest.

 

 

In other words, they need to be aware and be sure that whenever they share their barebones plans with us that they will be met with proper feedback, and not hate speech.

[GrogBeard]

I am definitely not as upset about the lack of communication surrounding the substance of changes, more the "Why." I totally sympathize with large guilds and scheduling however, and the RNG concerns are spot on. In fact, I wrote a topic on the issue, and posted it to the suggestion forum.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/162015-somestuff-banshee-is-a-symptom-not-a-problem/#entry1898874

[derclaw]

 

In other words, they need to be aware and be sure that whenever they share their barebones plans with us that they will be met with proper feedback, and not hate speech.

Their bare bone plans will be met with hate speach from some pople - you cant evade this.

 

On the other hands their pointless speech like "Super excited move set for next update? Maybe? Who knows! I wont speak about it! LOLOLOLO" will meet even more hate speach because its looks like mockery. Dont want to tell us - dont tell, want to teas us  -  teas but dont then leave us without any info for few month.

 

Comunity is big enough to provide you with all manner of haters and fanboys. Its sad if DE are dont want to give responce to comunity just because we rant or hatespeak. There is no ideal product on the market, but good lord sometimes DE act like they are innocent and have no idea why people ranting.

 

Feedback from fanboys who are super hyped and happy with what they get wont solve any existing problems.

Also problem is  that their "barebone plans" usualy drasticly different from what we get in result so how can it be met with proper feedback? Or what exactly is proper feedback in this case?

Edited January 14, 2014 by derclaw

[Renan.Ruivo]

Their bare bone plans will be met with hate speach from some pople - you cant evade this.

 

On the other hands their pointless speech like "Super excited move set for next update? Maybe? Who knows! I wont speak about it! LOLOLOLO" will meet even more hate speach because its looks like mockery. Dont want to tell us - dont tell, want to teas us  - dont teas and then leave us without any info for few month.

 

Comunity is big enough to provise you with all manner of haters and fanboys. Its sad if DE are dont want to give responce to comunity just because we rant or hatespeak. There is no ideal product on the market, but good lord sometimes DE act like they are innocent and have no idea why people ranting.

 

Feedback from fanboys who are super hyped and happy with what they get wont solve any existing problems.

 

Yes i agree with all of the above. I should clarify though that what i meant by "barebones plans" does not mean plans about doing small things or things that don't change much. I meant to say plans for possibly big changes on their early stages.

 

In other words, it would be a good idea for DE to involve the community in all stages of development planning. From the early barebones ideas up to the final concept stage.

 

 

On their part, they need not be afraid of sharing so much with us. On our part though we need to make sure to act like grown ups and give DE what they need to make a good product when and if they share all of their plans with us.

 

 

 

But one thing we should set in stone right here and right now though, that the community does not enjoy the "We are super excited for what is in store for the game this year! Stay tuned!" attitude. The community does not care for super excited developers. The community cares for knowing why they are "super excited" in the first place so that we can either be excited as well or tell them that they got it all wrong.

[bejuizb]

But one thing we should set in stone right here and right now though, that the community does not enjoy the "We are super excited for what is in store for the game this year! Stay tuned!" attitude. The community does not care for super excited developers. The community cares for knowing why they are "super excited" in the first place so that we can either be excited as well or tell them that they got it all wrong.

 

I couldn't have said it any better.

[Luminati07]

I haven't formally PMed Collstro or the others about making my own letter.

 

But, I guess this one would be mine.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/117870-16000-words-of-feedback-formerly-known-as-the-bitter-thread/'>16000 Words of Feedback

[se05239]

I haven't formally PMed Collstro or the others about making my own letter.

 

But, I guess this one would be mine.

16000 Words of Feedback

 

So much truth, its almost painful.

[Bakercompany86]

Yes i agree with all of the above. I should clarify though that what i meant by "barebones plans" does not mean plans about doing small things or things that don't change much. I meant to say plans for possibly big changes on their early stages.

 

In other words, it would be a good idea for DE to involve the community in all stages of development planning. From the early barebones ideas up to the final concept stage.

 

 

On their part, they need not be afraid of sharing so much with us. On our part though we need to make sure to act like grown ups and give DE what they need to make a good product when and if they share all of their plans with us.

 

 

 

But one thing we should set in stone right here and right now though, that the community does not enjoy the "We are super excited for what is in store for the game this year! Stay tuned!" attitude. The community does not care for super excited developers. The community cares for knowing why they are "super excited" in the first place so that we can either be excited as well or tell them that they got it all wrong.

 

 

I'm usually the guy going around saying that the Devs know what's best for the game, and we should let them work.

 

However, I believe Warframe is past that stage.  DE has certainly made it a beautiful and well running product that everyone can enjoy.  They've added a ton of stuff that we all like to play with.

 

At this point, I do believe the community knows what's best for Warframe.  Simply because they've given us the template, and we know what we want to do with it.  We know what we want to play, content wise.

 

They've certainly improved the mission structure.  Small tweaks are needed, like the Rescue missions hostage AI.

 

Outside of that, the Devs would benefit from learning what we want to enjoy as our "end game" material.  As far as the rest, it's fun getting to end game.  Very fun actually.  I've just completed my first week back after a 4 month hiatus.  I have to say Warframe is more fun now than ever.  I happily dumped cash for platinum last night.  It brings me joy to spend the platinum making my Warframe look more awesome and become a real badass.

 

 

But the community knows what it wants for end game.  All of the veterans who make posts on here have the exact same wishes and desires.  Now it's just up to DE to listen and implement.

 

Maybe someone should make a solid thread to be a pinned post, that contains a poll or something.  A collective database of veteran desires for end game.

[Kinjeto]

Signed

~Kinjeto~ Co-Founder of DoggHouse. -- Kind of

[Tartanu]

I'm usually the guy going around saying that the Devs know what's best for the game, and we should let them work.

However, I believe Warframe is past that stage. DE has certainly made it a beautiful and well running product that everyone can enjoy. They've added a ton of stuff that we all like to play with.

At this point, I do believe the community knows what's best for Warframe. Simply because they've given us the template, and we know what we want to do with it. We know what we want to play, content wise.

On the contrary, I would contend that, apart from the void (hooray for actual puzzles in our fps), that there have been no substantive gameplay changes since this game first launched. Sure, we get some more tilesets, but since most tilesets are quite literally a non-interactive corridor with various doodads and reskins, they don't affect gameplay in any substantive way.

Same with the addition of new frames (Nova presses 4 to nuke the map) and new guns (just tweaked fire/damage rates without any "weightiness" to actual gun handling). And no, making every gun specialize in one faction damage type in order to force people to rotate loadouts is artifically gating content for the sake of annoyance. Just as before, there is usually one optimal build for every weapon.

Now that this game is de facto out of beta, it is pretty clear what the end business model is--stringing players along with endless iterations of trinkets packaged in overpriced bundles and prime access packs. The more money lemmings burn in this hole, the easier it'll be to rationalize their potlatch. What's another hundred bucks when you're already 400 deep? I've been on studios' forums for a decade now, and never before Warfarm and this freemium skulduggery have I seen grown &#! men bawl their eyes out begging for a discount on a scarf in a video game (which alone would have still cost as much as any fully-supported, finished game from your typical AAA developer).

Those who are arguing that some of the core mechanics of this game are still able to change and evolve are deluding themselves. The engine is what it is and will be what it is. Most of what has been laid upon it has been cosmetic, and I have little reason to believe that the situation will be any different in the future.

As for writing, I have only one comment: "Our cold and gold emperors."

Yeeeah, excuse me while I ROFLMAO.

Edited January 14, 2014 by niekaa

[--collstro--]

On the contrary, I would contend that, apart from the void, that there have been no substantive gameplay changes since this game first launched. Sure, we get some more tilesets, but since most tilesets are quite literally a non-interactive corridor with various doodads and reskins, they don't affect gameplay in any substantive way. Same with the addition of new frames (Nova presses 4 to nuke the map) and new guns (just tweaked fire/damage rates without any "weightiness" to actual gun handling). And no, making every gun specialize in one faction damage type in order to force people to rotate loadouts is artifically gating content for the sake of annoyance. Just as before, there is usually one optimal build for every weapon. Now that this game is de facto out of beta, it is pretty clear what the end business model is--stringing players along with endless iterations of trinkets packaged in overpriced bundles and prime access packs. The more money lemmings burn in this hole, the easier it'll be to rationalize their potlatch. What's another hundred bucks when you're already 400 deep? I've been on studios' forums for a decade now, and never before Warfarm and this freemium skulduggery have I seen grown &#! men bawl their eyes out begging for a discount for a scarf in a video game (which alone would have still cost as much as any fully-supported, finished game from your typical AAA developer). Those who are arguing that some of the core mechanics of this game are still able to change and evolve are deluding themselves. The engine is what it is and will be what it is. Most of what has been laid upon it has been cosmetic, and I have little reason to believe that the situation will be any different in the future. As for writing, I have only one comment: "Our cold and gold emperors." Yeeeah, excuse me while I ROFLMAO.

 

Well said sir; which is why this letter, (planned to be letters, before moderator mergers,) is the last ditch effort by co-signers to affect some real change that will ultimately benefit DE as much as the player base. Since if we continue down our current path, there won't be much of a player base left.

[Mak_Gohae]

Yes i agree with all of the above. I should clarify though that what i meant by "barebones plans" does not mean plans about doing small things or things that don't change much. I meant to say plans for possibly big changes on their early stages.

 

In other words, it would be a good idea for DE to involve the community in all stages of development planning. From the early barebones ideas up to the final concept stage.

 

 

On their part, they need not be afraid of sharing so much with us. On our part though we need to make sure to act like grown ups and give DE what they need to make a good product when and if they share all of their plans with us.

 

 

 

But one thing we should set in stone right here and right now though, that the community does not enjoy the "We are super excited for what is in store for the game this year! Stay tuned!" attitude. The community does not care for super excited developers. The community cares for knowing why they are "super excited" in the first place so that we can either be excited as well or tell them that they got it all wrong.

 

 

The community has already clearly proved that this is not possible.

There are way too many instances where something is said as a sneak peek one time that get turned into a whole thing about DE lying because it didnt come out 2 weeks later. Again and again this is clearly shown.

 

DE should close all doors and just release info on what is actually coming out on the next patch like everyone else does. This is the only way this thing can work.

[Tartanu]

Well said sir; which is why this letter, (planned to be letters, before moderator mergers,) is the last ditch effort by co-signers to affect some real change that will ultimately benefit DE as much as the player base. Since if we continue down our current path, there won't be much of a player base left.

 

No, I seriously suspect that burnout is factored into the economic calculus of Warframe's business model.  I've noticed this with a lot of f2p games--lots of newbies growing into cynical veterans after they realize they've been taken for a ride.  As long as there's advertising to draw in enough folks to replace the ones who leave, though, the business side of things can continue to chug along nicely.

 

Remember, what constitutes a "successful" game is not whether it's "good" by some abstract artistic or phenomenological standard.  It's what it shows on the studio's bottom line.

[Blatantfool]

The community has already clearly proved that this is not possible.

There are way too many instances where something is said as a sneak peek one time that get turned into a whole thing about DE lying because it didnt come out 2 weeks later. Again and again this is clearly shown.

 

DE should close all doors and just release info on what is actually coming out on the next patch like everyone else does. This is the only way this thing can work.

 

 Yeah. This is the ugly other side of the coin.

 

 There are things that can be done to solve this, but none of it will be perfect. Still - it is worthwhile.

 

 As for

 

DE should close all doors and just release info on what is actually coming out on the next patch like everyone else does. This is the only way this thing can work.

 

Don't be stupid.

[General_Krull]

I'm a veteran nobody and I agree.

[Alteria]

I agree with everything that you said, great post! +1

 

Haven't been playing the game at all :| (I'm Rank 11 btw)

[Bakercompany86]

On the contrary, I would contend that, apart from the void (hooray for actual puzzles in our fps), that there have been no substantive gameplay changes since this game first launched. Sure, we get some more tilesets, but since most tilesets are quite literally a non-interactive corridor with various doodads and reskins, they don't affect gameplay in any substantive way.

Same with the addition of new frames (Nova presses 4 to nuke the map) and new guns (just tweaked fire/damage rates without any "weightiness" to actual gun handling). And no, making every gun specialize in one faction damage type in order to force people to rotate loadouts is artifically gating content for the sake of annoyance. Just as before, there is usually one optimal build for every weapon.

Now that this game is de facto out of beta, it is pretty clear what the end business model is--stringing players along with endless iterations of trinkets packaged in overpriced bundles and prime access packs. The more money lemmings burn in this hole, the easier it'll be to rationalize their potlatch. What's another hundred bucks when you're already 400 deep? I've been on studios' forums for a decade now, and never before Warfarm and this freemium skulduggery have I seen grown &#! men bawl their eyes out begging for a discount on a scarf in a video game (which alone would have still cost as much as any fully-supported, finished game from your typical AAA developer).

Those who are arguing that some of the core mechanics of this game are still able to change and evolve are deluding themselves. The engine is what it is and will be what it is. Most of what has been laid upon it has been cosmetic, and I have little reason to believe that the situation will be any different in the future.

As for writing, I have only one comment: "Our cold and gold emperors."

Yeeeah, excuse me while I ROFLMAO.

 

 

That's pretty much what I was getting at.  

 

We enjoy the game.  If we didn't and there wasn't least something to hook us into it, we wouldn't still be here hoping for content.

 

 

I actually enjoy the new tilesets.  Yeah they're just more corridors, but I never expected them to be more than that.  At least now the missions aren't pitifully short and the levels are always different.

 

 

Outside of that though, this game has a serious problem with content.  It's definitely no secret, it's every single veteran's beef with this game.  We just want to enjoy *more* of it.  And for that more to actually be entertaining for the long run, instead of just more corridors to run and shoot through.

 

 

It's like they spent so much time doing design and animation, that they forgot to hire writers and mission designers.

 

 

And I think that's what they need.  Outside of getting a little more creative in the weapon departments, this studio needs veteran writers.  There is no story, no lore, no plot.  Thus there can be no campaign and no real structure.  

 

I think they would greatly benefit from hiring some AAA writers to really give this game some meat.  Maybe then they could put a purpose to these missions, and even step outside of the missions to create something really different.  

 

DE took a very large gamble by making a game that is strictly PvE (duels do not constitute true PvP).  With a strictly PvE game, your lore/story has to be top notch.  Otherwise you end up with a really shiny object and a hollow center.

 

 

My question is, does the community know what they want for true end game?  I keep seeing raids and dungeons and such, but would that be enough?

[General_Krull]

That's pretty much what I was getting at.  

 

We enjoy the game.  If we didn't and there wasn't least something to hook us into it, we wouldn't still be here hoping for content.

 

 

I actually enjoy the new tilesets.  Yeah they're just more corridors, but I never expected them to be more than that.  At least now the missions aren't pitifully short and the levels are always different.

 

 

Outside of that though, this game has a serious problem with content.  It's definitely no secret, it's every single veteran's beef with this game.  We just want to enjoy *more* of it.  And for that more to actually be entertaining for the long run, instead of just more corridors to run and shoot through.

 

 

It's like they spent so much time doing design and animation, that they forgot to hire writers and mission designers.

 

 

And I think that's what they need.  Outside of getting a little more creative in the weapon departments, this studio needs veteran writers.  There is no story, no lore, no plot.  Thus there can be no campaign and no real structure.  

 

I think they would greatly benefit from hiring some AAA writers to really give this game some meat.  Maybe then they could put a purpose to these missions, and even step outside of the missions to create something really different.  

 

DE took a very large gamble by making a game that is strictly PvE (duels do not constitute true PvP).  With a strictly PvE game, your lore/story has to be top notch.  Otherwise you end up with a really shiny object and a hollow center.

 

 

My question is, does the community know what they want for true end game?  I keep seeing raids and dungeons and such, but would that be enough?

They should let Ced23Ric and BlatantFool write the lore. I think they even offered to do it.

[Mak_Gohae]

 Yeah. This is the ugly other side of the coin.

 

 There are things that can be done to solve this, but none of it will be perfect. Still - it is worthwhile.

 

 As for

 

 

Don't be stupid.

 

Sorry but when people are actually stupid enough not to understand a little sneak peak this is the only solution.

It took half a year for the scarves to come out.... why does anyone think that anything more involved than that will come out in less time?

Edited January 14, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Sorry but when are actually stupid enough not to understand a little sneak peak this is the only solution.

It took half a year for the scarves to come out.... why does anyone think that anything more involved than that will come out in less time?

It's not about expecting to see it instantly, but to be kept updated on whatever it is. When they mention something, people want to be kept in the loop, not see something mentioned once, then ignored until it's released.

[Blatantfool]

Sorry but when are actually stupid enough not to understand a little sneak peak this is the only solution.

It took half a year for the scarves to come out.... why does anyone think that anything more involved than that will come out in less time?

 

 There are things you've said on this forum that I've disagreed with. There are things I've agreed with.

 

 But I'm being completely honest right now - absolutely no BS.

 

 "They need to close their doors" is the silliest thing I've seen you pose as an argument.

 

 Time is not an issue Mak - as I'm sure you've told other people - since it is a Beta. DE has all the time they need to get whats good done.

 

 And this isn't a matter of extremes. It isn't a choice between "Shut their doors" or "Open up everything". Realistically it is just a matter of DE hitting the middle of the road.

 

 Like with XP2.0. Yes, the majority of the feedback was very negative. But DE gave the community ample warning and a clear explanation of a change they wanted to make and the community gave them a reaction that allowed them to make a change for better. Now XP 2.0 is on hold while they continue to work on making it more appropriate.

[Bakercompany86]

They should let Ced23Ric and BlatantFool write the lore. I think they even offered to do it.

 

My buddy and I were talking about that the other day.

 

 

Take the Lotus' phrases for example.  I bet a group of us could write better dialogue for an all-seeing Tenno master over a couple beers at a bar.

 

Her dialogue seems like it was written in 60 minutes, scribbled down on paper and quickly implemented.

 

These guys need writers, that's for sure.  They're very talented programmers.  It's okay to be good at one thing and not another, that's what makes us human.

 

But now they're just throwing a ton of stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks.  That's not how you develop a AAA title, especially a F2P one.

 

Other F2P titles have the advantage of being heavy PvP games.  So they don't need a story.  Warframe doesn't have that crutch.

 

 

Look at the DayZ standalone.  Over a million copies sold in what, a month?  Just because people are itching to get out there and survive/shoot other players.

 

Same with Planetside 2.  The story for PS2 is very thin, nothing ground breaking or incredible about it.  But thousands of players line up because they want to shoot each other.  Simple as that.  And people throw cash at SOE to do it too.  I know I have.

 

Without that PvP crutch for Warframe, they need some killer story and lore.  They don't have that at all, and it's beginning to really hurt them as players run out of things to do.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Bakercompany86

[Mak_Gohae]

It's not about expecting to see it instantly, but to be kept updated on whatever it is. When they mention something, people want to be kept in the loop, not see something mentioned once, then ignored until it's released.

 

What are you looking for exactly? This X thing is at 50% completion?

That means nothing and that just adds fuel to the fire to the folks that dont seem to understand the concept of time and work.

The first 50% might go quick but the next 10% might take as long as that first 50.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What are you looking for exactly? This X thing is at 50% completion?

That means nothing and that just adds fuel to the fire to the folks that dont seem to understand the concept of time and work.

The first 50% might go quick but the next 10% might take as long as that first 50.

We're looking to be kept updated on what they're working on. I don't expect them to show us something, and then have it come out instantly, I do kinda expect them to simply keep us updated on the progress i.e.:

 

"Today on the new tileset we worked in some secrets" or

"Today on the new boss we started coding his special weapons" or

"We're currently working on the AI to do X or react to Y better"

 

Type of thing, even if it's only once every 2 weeks, or once a week in each of their "weekly" dev workshops.

[DresiK.]

+1 from meh ^.-