De, Would You Finally Remove The Slash Proc From Enemies Please?

[Mayflower]

Here's one suggestion: Procs cease to become random-based, but instead "stack up."  Once an individual proc stacks to 100%, you incur that proc.  A Grakata has 20% status.  Instead of having that percentage chance to proc, instead it should be the fifth round is a guaranteed proc, because you reach 100%, naturally.

 

This goes for each individual proc type, probably split between damage types.  Since a Grakata deals more Impact, it'll reach its Knockback proc faster, with its Weaken proc coming second and its Slash proc coming third.  How status is distributed among damage types is a matter of detail.  The point is, any given entity has separate "status bars" for each damage type.  Taking status "damage" from a source of Slash does not increase your "status bar" for Magnetic proc, for instance.

 

Over time, when not being attacked (similarily to shield recharging) status wears off if it's stacked incompletely.  So you got shot 4 times by a grakata, reaching 80%.  After a given amount of time, that % begins to decrease until it's 0%.  This applies to both you and the enemy.

So, charging status effects that time out. As long as the status effect is on, any more hits from the status effect causing thing refreshes the duration and increases the %. The actual status proc happens when the status effect reaches 100%. Essentially making status effects guaranteed in short duration. Unfortunately this can punish slow reloading weapons where single magazine isn't enough to charge the status effect to 100% to trigger status proc, but the charging can be tweaked for them.

 

This also buffs masses of NPCs a lot, since those throngs of Grineer with Grakatas or Runner swarms can quickly proc status effects this way by stacking themselves.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Mayflower

[EChondo]

I usually agree with everything extra credits says... but slide slash is a move that's hard to execute? LOLOLOL

I don't think he is saying it's hard to execute, it's just that there are so many required keys to execute the attack that not many people know about it or how to use it effectively.

 

I didn't find out about it until I started watching speedrun videos months back, and I was already 6+ months into the game. I just had a couple friends of mine that just started Warframe almost a month ago and only just last week they saw me doing it and asked me about it.

 

Of course this is just bad explanation of the game and it's movements from a tutorial/beginner standpoint, but that's a discussion for another topic.

[Silphy]

It's nice to see it's already being discussed, I was planning on making a topic about this:

 

Game design: The bleed proc defeats the very reason why we have regenerative shields.

 

[i'll be quoting some trope pages, since they already worded my points perfectly.]

 

In Video Games, deflector shields have a special use. They are effectively a way to justify regenerating hit points, but only for a part of a unit's health. Shields get to regenerate, but if there is something beneath them, like armor or health, the health doesn't regenerate.

 

Why do we have regenerating health, or more accurately, static health and regenerative shields? Regenerating Health is great from a designer's perspective, because they don't need to worry about players screwing themselves over by draining their health and being unable to handle the next challenge. The downside is some players (and designers) complain it makes things too easy. What to do? Why not have both regular Hit Points and Regenerating Health?

 

The important point is that we have shields for a reason. It's so we're never at 2/100 hp and cannot possibly win the next challenge ahead. This was a problem in older shooters and it was massively frustrating, where you could get a save in such a situation and have the impossible mission of finding a health kit or restart everything. It's why doom starts levels at at least 25 hp if you're below it, why Prey regenerates your hp to 25% if it ever gets below that and why Halo: combat evolved has regenerative shields besides the health bar. 

 

The second important point is that DE chose this mechanic for a reason, they chose not to make the game about conserving the resources of the level (or game) as a whole, the player has to mostly worry about surviving individual encounters. 

 

The bleed proc breaks this entire system. Because now you CAN end up on Phobos, at full shields but about to die. Enemies CAN one-shot you at way lower levels than you should be able to handle. Just making it decrease less health doesn't change the fact that if enough grineers roll lucky dice, you'll get chip-damaged to death no matter how great you are at managing your shields. At the very least we need a system like prey, where we regen hp below 25%.

 

Practical gameplay: What can we currently do about it?

 

The problem isn't that we're damaged through our shields, toxic ancients already do this. It's their special ability; "don't get close to this anti-melee enemy, it's toxic/explosive/debuffs you/has only short range attacks but they're unusually strong". The problem is that it can't be reasonably avoided.

 

What are our options?

 

Not getting hit

It's impossible to ask a player to avoid getting hit by corpus or grineer. Grineer are hitscan, and unlike toxic ancients they WILL hit you if they have line of sight. So we're getting hit. It's unavoidable.

 

Medkits

Medkits would work against chip-damage only. Bleed procs would have to have a percentual damage limit to not one-shot players. But asking a player to carry heal restores around everywhere is silly, why introduce a mechanic that requires us to carry around hp potions like an RPG? Wouldn't it make more sense to just give us 100% non-regenerative HP? They're emergency field medkits, not magic heal waters required to finish a mission in Phobos without a Rhino.

 

Abilities

Rhino (Iron skin), Trinity/Oberon/Nekros (healing), there are frames who can counter bleed damage. But so far I've seen zero incentive by the devs to make a certain frame or frames mandatory for a given area. Every high level frame should have the capability to survive a level. It might be a player's only one!

 

Stacking vitality mods

More health will only slow the inevitable chip-damage road to death.

 

Health drops

Currently not enough to help. However,

Enemies should drop Health orbs. I'm still baffled it hasn't happened yet.

Like health restores, would work against chip-damage only, but it's an elegant solution.

 

Tactics

 

There are mods, packs, frames, tactics and then there are poor choices. Choosing to use no tactics, ignore packs and not equip mods while insisting to play a frame that doesn't protect you is a poor choice...

I remember doing Ceicero to 30% or so before I knew how it worked, and having bleed procs be a problem on that big open map, yes, but then a funny thing happened. I used my brain and came prepared when I did 100%.

...

Saying a player shouldn't end up in this position goes entirely against the second important point, it forces players to not worry about individual encounters, but conserving resources. It would be okay if the entire system it undermines wasn't specifically designed to stop just that.

 

Lorewise: It simply doesn't make much sense

 

Shields block ALL damage except for toxin and asphyxiation, which means they block kinetic damage and extremes like heat, but aren't air-tight (and neither are warframes if we can suffocate). Our shields sometimes get coated by fuel and then ignited, a toxin bullet might splatter on your shield, showering you with toxin droplets which you might inhale, it all makes sense because it's a slow acting damage source delivered at non-terminal velocities. It's like the shields from the Dune, they didn't stop everything since you'd suffocate, but they stopped anything moving above a certain velocity.

Off topic: but this is why they use daggers, with the right technique you could bypass a shield. It would be amazing if this were incorporated in melee 2.0 and stealth mechanics, like on corpus techs.

 

But when this (Slash proc) applied mobs it's okay, right?

 

Yes, except on corpus and bosses with shields. If it doesn't work on us, it doesn't have to work on them. Slash does bonus damage against all kinds of flesh, but will only do this bonus damage when corpus shields are down. Why does the proc get exemption?

 

Just stop it working on shields.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Silphy

[taiiat]

I usually agree with everything extra credits says... but slide slash is a move that's hard to execute? LOLOLOL

if you're naive enough to think you speak for all 8 Billion people on this planet - well that's pretty naive, that's all i have to say.

 

even if you have a wide window to execute such a maneuver, since being in the air makes SpinDashing a lot more effective, your window is much smaller there. 

 

either way, yes, Daniel thinks SpinDashing is difficult for him. that's perfectly okay. i'm sure he spends more time being something of an expert on the industry and being a knowledgeable source of information (in collaboration with others since he knows he doesn't know everything because nobody does), than spending time practicing a sequence of button presses that is of no real concern to the world and doesn't help his knowledge of the entire industry. just as if you pick up a random person, and plop them into a Jet Fighter - they'll probably get injured before they even get off the runway. 

 

of course everything is easy with hundreds of hours of practice. i have no touble executing such a maneuver either, but that's because i have 1600 hours or so logged. so i would expect that to be an easy task.

 

and honestly Daniel is correct. SpinDash attacks are not particularly amazing for the number of buttons required to execute them, the Damage they deal isn't that much higher. which makes sense for balance, but that's another story.

Daniel knows to rate things by their difficulty of execution, and reward for the difficulty. it's pretty easy to hold the trigger or spam one button to swing a Sword or shoot a Gun. the more complicated maneuvers? yeah, not quite as effective. (though i admit, the parkour combo's i've picked up over so many hours make moving through tiles pretty enoyable, and are starting to get pretty smooth!)

 

--------------------

 

on topic:

 

This is a really good point. I think ultimately the shield consideration or a "cap" on how much health can be removed would prevent uncontrollable death like this... but to be discussed further, carry on!

if by Shield consideration we mean Bleeding impossible unless Shields are down - i don't think that's necessary, or good for gameplay either. as then Bleeding would just be redundant damage on your Health. the point of it is that you can lose Health despite that magic Shield you have. if you Bled for extra damage while your Shield was down, it's just more damage on top of damage, 'cause damage. not particularly unique, and barely noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

 

it's actually a great mechanic that we can Bleed with Shields up - it reminds us that we are not immortal. but some boundaries to keep things from getting out of hand like not allowing multiple Bleed Effects to exist at once as well as limiting the maximum damage they can do per 'tick'(and/or limiting the number of ticks shorter - 8 seconds is actually quite a while)

[VKhaun]

 if by Shield consideration we mean Bleeding impossible unless Shields are down - i don't think that's necessary, or good for gameplay either. as then Bleeding would just be redundant damage on your Health. the point of it is that you can lose Health despite that magic Shield you have. if you Bled for extra damage while your Shield was down, it's just more damage on top of damage, 'cause damage. not particularly unique, and barely noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/153644-status-effects-feedback/

Please keep your brain out of my brain.

Thanks.

 

 

it's actually a great mechanic that we can Bleed with Shields up - it reminds us that we are not immortal. but some boundaries to keep things from getting out of hand like not allowing multiple Bleed Effects to exist at once as well as limiting the maximum damage they can do per 'tick'(and/or limiting the number of ticks shorter - 8 seconds is actually quite a while)

The trick here, IMO, is to give the shield user a way to counter it that's better than just arbitrarily stealing a mod slot for anti-bleed. My first reply to the thread was trying to suggest mods that did MORE than just that to justify their slot, but what if we linked an existing shield stat to the damage?

 

What if bleeds did not tic new damage while shields were full or recharging? That way rather than punishing a shield user with 'more damage', it would punish them by making them find cover sooner, sort of like debuffing their max shields but they still have their shields. They just can't use them all vs a slash attacker without taking HP damage.

[Silphy]

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/153644-status-effects-feedback/

Please keep your brain out of my brain.

Thanks.

 

I like your idea of changing the effect of a bleed proc. You mentioned you'd like players to be forced into cover, maybe slash could disrupt shield regen for a while. Staying still would reestablish the field or something. Also, then those shield restores would finally have a use. Damage bypassing shields is a role filled more elegantly by toxin anyway.

[NikolaiLev]

So, charging status effects that time out. As long as the status effect is on, any more hits from the status effect causing thing refreshes the duration and increases the %. The actual status proc happens when the status effect reaches 100%. Essentially making status effects guaranteed in short duration. Unfortunately this can punish slow reloading weapons where single magazine isn't enough to charge the status effect to 100% to trigger status proc, but the charging can be tweaked for them.

 

This also buffs masses of NPCs a lot, since those throngs of Grineer with Grakatas or Runner swarms can quickly proc status effects this way by stacking themselves.

 

It has no effect on masses of NPCs.  The effect would be the same; right now, throngs of enemies can already proc tons of status effects on you due to sheer volume of rounds.  The RNG will allow them to proc multiple procs.  The only thing this does is make it consistent, so you won't get a single Lancer proccing bleed on you a few times.  It'll always be consistent.

[Mak_Gohae]

Bring healing items.

[Silphy]

Bring healing items.

You need about 3-5 medium team heal restores for eviscerators, maybe less if it's just a long mission with normal enemies. That's IF you manage to catch it in time.

 

3-4k credits + resources down the drain per eviscerator because of a bleed proc. Phobos, especially its survival is a good example of this, the grineer there have a ridiculously high proc chance. My record was a nova that had to use 15.000 credits worth of heal restores, I exclusively take rhino there now.

 

It shouldn't be like this.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Silphy

[Hyunsai]

That's the goal. To make Rhino the only frame we can use in the end.

[Tsukinoki]

@Mak_Gohae

Healing items sound great, except that are next to completely useless and a waste of credits and resources.

The medium heal restore heals for 100 hp every 5 seconds for a total of 400 hp at 20 seconds.

The bleeding status effect on the other hand stacks and hits you 7 times in 5 seconds.

So if you're bleeding for 50 damage per tick, which is quite common from evicerators, you will suffer 350 damage in the first 5 seconds.

IF you are still alive (as that will kill the caster frames) you get your first healing pulse of 100 hp.

See the problem with the health restore items combined with the bleeding proc?

And it gets worse if you have multiple bleeding procs hitting you at the same time.

Bleeding is in no way balanced when it is used against the players.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[HailCreation]

I've honestly never died to a slash proc, and cannot understand or relate to this complaint. 

[Silphy]

I've honestly never died to a slash proc, and cannot understand or relate to this complaint. 

 

Put a max redirection and vigor on a tanky frame like rhino and let some eviscerators on phobos shoot you. Take a look how much hp damage bleed procs do. Do you use a lot of hp mods?

[Tsukinoki]

@Silphy

Or get nicked by stalkers slash dash which can cause bleeding of upwards of 100-200 damage per tick, or 700-1400 damage over 5 seconds.

And even if you aren't fighting stalker bleeding stacks and it only takes a few eviscerators to get up to that level of damage, and there is literally nothing you can do to prevent death if you have lower HP and get bleeding procced as nothing can stop the bleeding and all of the healing items in game take an age to do anything.

[Volume]

Allow us to purchase bandages so we can tend to our bleeding injuries. 

 

Beans too. We need beans. 

 

Magic beans.

[Mak_Gohae]

You need about 3-5 medium team heal restores for eviscerators, maybe less if it's just a long mission with normal enemies. That's IF you manage to catch it in time.

 

3-4k credits + resources down the drain per eviscerator because of a bleed proc. Phobos, especially its survival is a good example of this, the grineer there have a ridiculously high proc chance. My record was a nova that had to use 15.000 credits worth of heal restores, I exclusively take rhino there now.

 

It shouldn't be like this.

 

Given how many invasion give out money i dont think money is really a problem. Plus the resources are common ones and it's not like you are constantly using those to build anything else.

 

@Mak_Gohae

Healing items sound great, except that are next to completely useless and a waste of credits and resources.

The medium heal restore heals for 100 hp every 5 seconds for a total of 400 hp at 20 seconds.

The bleeding status effect on the other hand stacks and hits you 7 times in 5 seconds.

So if you're bleeding for 50 damage per tick, which is quite common from evicerators, you will suffer 350 damage in the first 5 seconds.

IF you are still alive (as that will kill the caster frames) you get your first healing pulse of 100 hp.

See the problem with the health restore items combined with the bleeding proc?

And it gets worse if you have multiple bleeding procs hitting you at the same time.

Bleeding is in no way balanced when it is used against the players.

 

Can you drop multiple pads for a stream of health?

 

I've honestly never died to a slash proc, and cannot understand or relate to this complaint. 

 

Me neither, but then i do almost always equip Rejuv and when i hear the clank, clank of that miter i look for them to kill first.

I understand when you get far in Defense and Survival but at that point the game is not balanced by any means.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Wahooo]

Put a max redirection and vigor on a tanky frame like rhino and let some eviscerators on phobos shoot you. Take a look how much hp damage bleed procs do. Do you use a lot of hp mods?

Or don't stand still and let enemies shoot you while you play and then see how silly these threads are.

 

Yes i've been surprised and killed by enemies, including eviscerators, but not enough to think it is a problem with the game that needs changing.  There has to be SOMETHING that is a threat.

[KoshLovesYou]

You know, honestly? Out of all of the suggestions? Just making it so bleed effects just make you more prone to trigger OTHER types of Status procs would actually even encourage us to use those buffed resistance mods/slash-heavy weapons more, too.

DoT should really just only be the realm of Fire/Toxin, considering how common slash is. I can't even do Pro-Corpus Invasion missions due to how riddiculous it is anymore, not with so few fellow players joining in. And they're all usually Rhinos or Valks. That makes it super boring to do.

[Silphy]

Given how many invasion give out money i dont think money is really a problem. Plus the resources are common ones and it's not like you are constantly using those to build anything else.

...

It's easy to say that as an endgame player, but It's really unfair to new players. If it's your only frame it's a cheap way to die/lose revives and a strain on resources which you need for your first few items. Not to mention that medium team heal restores are clan tech...

 

I'd go so far as to disagree on principle even, you shouldn't have to pay your way through missions or end up breaking even in credits after a mission to save yourself from cheap deaths.

 

Or don't stand still and let enemies shoot you while you play and then see how silly these threads are.

 

Yes i've been surprised and killed by enemies, including eviscerators, but not enough to think it is a problem with the game that needs changing.  There has to be SOMETHING that is a threat.

 

I suggested he create a situation where he could witness a bleed proc, since he said he never experienced one that one-shot a frame. Apparently he's skilled enough to avoid most hits or uses a rhino, not everyone is/does.

 

If the game still wants to wear the badge "beta" it's only natural that we voice our feeling (give feedback) about how fair certain things feel, hence why we make "silly threads". Because level 18 enemies can kill endgame, 3 forma, supercharged warframes through the RNG. You have a great point that we should have some challenge, they're making endgame, but weaponizing the RNG against us in areas meant for newer players is silly.