Voidflow Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 All descripances of Warframes comes from lack of fixed end content (fixed end game level). With e enemy level scaling utility framw will always be better than damage frame. Offcause one could implement damage scaling for frames depending on enemy level. But then in that case enemy levels are pointless ... that means better to go with fixed end game levels, which is what I hope will happen with future lore content leaving endless defence and survival alone ... Yes even with fixed level of end content most utiliy frame skills are OP (snow globe, bastille etc.). So long these abilities will stay unchanged every additional lore content will be easy manageable ... 1. I think we need fixed level end content first. With different difficulties via AI unit types, bosses etc. 2. Then OP utility skills need to be tonned down (exaples: Bastille: slows only by 40-60-80%, no lift up, no amount limitation but less duration. Snow globe: damage mitigation of incoming bullets by 30-50-70%.) In this case some "crap" skills like electric shield will be more important and not obsole any more. 3. then damages skills need to be buffed in order being usefull with maxed power stregth in end content (fixed level). Btw. I play Volt, Ash, Frost and Nyx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachino Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Low survivability: Saryn Excalibro Ember Volt Nekros Oberon Mag Nekros is high survivability, Shadows of the dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushrooMars Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) To address responses to my post, here's my reasoning: >Saryn having low survivability Valkyr has 300 armor, and even with a max rank Steel Fiber, she's squishy as all hell. Armor is great and all for low-tier missions, but looking at stuff like Palus, Pluto, T3 Void Missions, or worse yet, Nightmare Pluto, Armor isn't worth jack. The 'Frames I ranked as most survivable are the ones with abilities that grant them survivability which scale well into the late-game. However, the armor combined with Molt does bump her up to average survivability, fixed my post. >Mag having low survivability Mistake on my part, sorry, she has good CC, directional shielding with Bullet Attractor+Tanky Enemy, and really good shields. Fixed my post. >Nekros having high survivability I'll bump him up to mid range survivability, the wiki does say that the Shadows pull aggro, and he has 7+ shadows which are just as tanky as the mobs you're fighting. But he's still crap, IMHO. Edit: Poll's saying Trinity is useless. I'm confused, that's kinda like saying oxygen tastes bad. Edited January 23, 2014 by MushrooMars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSMK2 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think the high cast times of Nekros's abilities are highly detrimental to his survivability. I'm fine with all his abilities (though) except for Terrify; it doesn't help Nekros when he's in a sticky situation at all. - Cast time for it is "short" but it gives too much room for mobs to attack; which somewhat negates this being an emergency skill - Cannot recast while active; which also negates this being an emergency skill, as fear'd enemies get replaced with non-feared enemies that come in I wouldn't mind it having limited enemies it can affect if I can recast it at any time. It's currently pretty useless, and in some ways dangerous to use. Does the armor debuff work on bosses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siekier Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Saryn has low survivability? There are frames with much less health and shields. Also, I don't care if you say that Valkyr is useless. She's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) To address responses to my post, here's my reasoning: >Saryn having low survivability Valkyr has 300 armor, and even with a max rank Steel Fiber, she's squishy as all hell. Armor is great and all for low-tier missions, but looking at stuff like Palus, Pluto, T3 Void Missions, or worse yet, Nightmare Pluto, Armor isn't worth jack. The 'Frames I ranked as most survivable are the ones with abilities that grant them survivability which scale well into the late-game. However, the armor combined with Molt does bump her up to average survivability, fixed my post. >Mag having low survivability Mistake on my part, sorry, she has good CC, directional shielding with Bullet Attractor+Tanky Enemy, and really good shields. Fixed my post. >Nekros having high survivability I'll bump him up to mid range survivability, the wiki does say that the Shadows pull aggro, and he has 7+ shadows which are just as tanky as the mobs you're fighting. But he's still crap, IMHO. Edit: Poll's saying Trinity is useless. I'm confused, that's kinda like saying oxygen tastes bad. Oh, you were considering abilities in the survivability section? Then why is Loki at mid-range? Perma-Invisibility makes the chances of a Loki taking damage minimal at the worst of times. The only way an invisible Loki is going to take damage is if he either walks into enemy fire or has a teammate that is drawing the attention of a bombar/napalm near him that he hasn't gotten around to disarming. Radial Disarm+Invisibility bumps Loki's survivability up even higher. As for the Trinity thing... I'm not sure why people would think that. I guess if you have a good CC-frame on your team Trinity becomes much less useful (I'm grasping here) ...even then, she'd still act as a nice energy recharger. Edit: If Trinity is god-tier in survivability because of her invulnerability, Valkyr should also be god-tier. Edited January 23, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostWOlf995 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 All descripances of Warframes comes from lack of fixed end content (fixed end game level). With e enemy level scaling utility framw will always be better than damage frame. Offcause one could implement damage scaling for frames depending on enemy level. But then in that case enemy levels are pointless ... that means better to go with fixed end game levels, which is what I hope will happen with future lore content leaving endless defence and survival alone ... Yes even with fixed level of end content most utiliy frame skills are OP (snow globe, bastille etc.). So long these abilities will stay unchanged every additional lore content will be easy manageable ... 1. I think we need fixed level end content first. With different difficulties via AI unit types, bosses etc. 2. Then OP utility skills need to be tonned down (exaples: Bastille: slows only by 40-60-80%, no lift up, no amount limitation but less duration. Snow globe: damage mitigation of incoming bullets by 30-50-70%.) In this case some "crap" skills like electric shield will be more important and not obsole any more. 3. then damages skills need to be buffed in order being usefull with maxed power stregth in end content (fixed level). Btw. I play Volt, Ash, Frost and Nyx. This isnt good idea,later with 150lv+ enemies snow globe needs to block everything, even with 90% damage blocked mobs wpuld 1 sjot you and the crypod so its need to block everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanicPrime Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Oh, you were considering abilities in the survivability section? Then why is Loki at mid-range? Perma-Invisibility makes the chances of a Loki taking damage minimal at the worst of times. The only way an invisible Loki is going to take damage is if he either walks into enemy fire or has a teammate that is drawing the attention of a bombar/napalm near him that he hasn't gotten around to disarming. Radial Disarm+Invisibility bumps Loki's survivability up even higher. Radial Disarm and invisibility with maxed efficiency is how you turn any mission into an infested mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Radial Disarm and invisibility with maxed efficiency is how you turn any mission into an infested mission. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidflow Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 This isnt good idea,later with 150lv+ enemies snow globe needs to block everything, even with 90% damage blocked mobs wpuld 1 sjot you and the crypod so its need to block everything Endless scaling is bad design, which preventd from proper frame balance. It looks like u didnt red my post but picked one line out of context by saying how bad the idea is ... I doubt that DE see endless sirvival and defence as end game ... This is actually the main problem The origin of bad frame balance comes mainly from endless enemy scale, where OP utility like globe will be always better than any damage skill. Adding small utility to damage skills will cure symptoms but not the main problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris1 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Endless scaling is bad design, which preventd from proper frame balance. It looks like u didnt red my post but picked one line out of context by saying how bad the idea is ... I doubt that DE see endless sirvival and defence as end game ... This is actually the main problem The origin of bad frame balance comes mainly from endless enemy scale, where OP utility like globe will be always better than any damage skill. Adding small utility to damage skills will cure symptoms but not the main problem. Maybe yes but there are no op abilities its how there modded otherwise I call invisible loki as op and a few others besides snowglobe still cant block napalms moas such as three types of them and some corpus that throw nades besides what your suggesting to that by a big percentage would call that a further nerf, infested bypass the snowglobe as there not ranged by mele Bastila why another slow when thats what frost is meant to do not nova and maybe another and bastila all ready got nerfed by having limited targets pick up dosent need another nerf. Abilites should be scaled to what nova/trinity/rhino can do mot nerf others that are bad further down Edited January 23, 2014 by tris1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjeon Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Excalibur pretty much provides invulnerability to his team via Radial Blind. He can even solo T3 Defense with this skill. He is well known as one of the best Survival frames because of it. When I am struggling to tank as Rhino, I pull out Excalibur. How is he Low-Survivability? Imo he's God-tier nearly broken survivability along with Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushrooMars Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Oh, you were considering abilities in the survivability section? Then why is Loki at mid-range? Perma-Invisibility makes the chances of a Loki taking damage minimal at the worst of times. The only way an invisible Loki is going to take damage is if he either walks into enemy fire or has a teammate that is drawing the attention of a bombar/napalm near him that he hasn't gotten around to disarming. Radial Disarm+Invisibility bumps Loki's survivability up even higher. As for the Trinity thing... I'm not sure why people would think that. I guess if you have a good CC-frame on your team Trinity becomes much less useful (I'm grasping here) ...even then, she'd still act as a nice energy recharger. Edit: If Trinity is god-tier in survivability because of her invulnerability, Valkyr should also be god-tier. As a Loki whose built power efficiency from the beginning of time, I can tell you that Loki is still squish squish while invisible, *especially* if you're playing with a team. Even if you've radial disarmed the entire room, you're invisible, and you have a Decoy out, there's always going to be this one Corpus Crewman who decides to try and whack the Banshee sitting on the other side of the room with his glowstick, and you just happen to be trying to bludgeon him to death with your Galatine. Maybe I'm just unlucky. As for Valkyr, the issue is that she can't do anything important while invincible except revive. Have you ever seen a Valkyr trying to pummel a group of Level 60+ Corpus to death with her fists? It's just like swoosh! Swoosh swoosh swoosh! My fists are made of pillows, love and cotton candy! Compare that to Trinity, who is entirely capable of keeping the entire team invulnerable for the entire game, assuming you don't have a Dorki teabagging Toxicants on the other side of the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 As a Loki whose built power efficiency from the beginning of time, I can tell you that Loki is still squish squish while invisible, *especially* if you're playing with a team. Even if you've radial disarmed the entire room, you're invisible, and you have a Decoy out, there's always going to be this one Corpus Crewman who decides to try and whack the Banshee sitting on the other side of the room with his glowstick, and you just happen to be trying to bludgeon him to death with your Galatine. Maybe I'm just unlucky. As for Valkyr, the issue is that she can't do anything important while invincible except revive. Have you ever seen a Valkyr trying to pummel a group of Level 60+ Corpus to death with her fists? It's just like swoosh! Swoosh swoosh swoosh! My fists are made of pillows, love and cotton candy! Compare that to Trinity, who is entirely capable of keeping the entire team invulnerable for the entire game, assuming you don't have a Dorki teabagging Toxicants on the other side of the map. Sounds like you're just unlucky. I have two Loki's (plan on forma'ing one of them to be completely ability-less/maybe leaving in one ability slot. The other is my non-experimental Loki and he's forma'd once-twice (can't remember). The only way you're taking hits while invisible is if you stand in the way of enemy fire or decide to play sandwich with a teammate and enemies (you being the filling). Keep practicing, I guess (sounds like cop-out advice), but an invisible Loki is a pseudo-invincible Loki. Yeah, but the section was labeled survivability, not 'survivability+'how useful are you' '. IIRC she can't be knocked down while hysteria is active which would actually put her above Trinity as far as true invincibility goes. She should be in god-tier just like Trinity. Ash should be pretty high up as well because he has invulnerability too (while Bladestorming) and while out of Bladestorm he can turn invisible. So he's a mix of pseudo and true invincibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushrooMars Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hmm. I can respect those arguments, and my opinions on Loki are a bit swayed right now because I decided it would be fun to try and solo a few T3 Void Missions as well as Palus, Pluto. Loki is flat invulnerable in any normal situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hmm. I can respect those arguments, and my opinions on Loki are a bit swayed right now because I decided it would be fun to try and solo a few T3 Void Missions as well as Palus, Pluto. Loki is flat invulnerable in any normal situation. Solo'ing defense missions as Loki is a pretty easy task if you can figure out where to place your decoys. Otherwise being invisible just means enemies slaughter the pod faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)anime_shefu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Rhino is my favorite frame. Edited January 24, 2014 by (PS4)anime_shefu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratiasu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 What kind of voting system did the OP use? External polling site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CM-Syein Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I just test out Banshee some more, honestly she need a greater look at than valkyr and ash right now in term of survival skill. -No one deny that Ash and Valkyr are good at survival, reason why Ash need a rework is because everything about him (excepted shield, health, armor, offense power) is bad than Loki. (smoke screen/invisibility is debatable) Basically, why go for Ash when you got Loki. That doesn't mean Ash is a weak frame compared to other. His smoke screen alone can carry him for pretty far. His abilities doesn't help the team at all, Ash work individually. (excepted he is just as good as loki in term of revive and activate life support) but loki still have radial disarm. -Valkyr, her damage is the absolute worst, given that shield, no matter how high armor she is, she can easily have that armor broken. At one point in the game, she depend way too much on hysteria for survive and it get in the way of using gun. However, despite these two frames having such flaws, I test out Banshee. (I can't say much about Banshee until now because I haven't play her) Now that I played Banshee, I can concluded that she need the most work out of those 2. Banshee's Sonar is good for the team,(unless she face off boss such as Lephantis or Sargas Ruk or corpus) and it does nothing for keeping her alive. Her sonic boom is short range but it's a temporary counter measure. However, currently, none of Banshee power can carry her alive far into the game. Silence doesn't work, Sound quake can kill her in the middle of performing it. If Banshee get shoot by bullet, she doesn't have any abilities to keep her from avoiding them. Valkyr still have hysteria and Ash have smoke screen. Banshee is a Nova without m-prime if you wanted me to describe it, or Nekros without desecrate. So Banshee is in my useless list (I really wanted to re-vote the poll) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CM-Syein Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 who is Booben btw? And you forgot Saryn in power ceiling. You forgot Vauban in survivability/ skill/ power ceiling... oh wait, it's mushroomars making those list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) ^ booben = Vauban, some guy made a thread calling him that, now its seem the community accepted it as that. What kind of voting system did the OP use? External polling site? Google drive, not as effective, but got the job done. Edited January 24, 2014 by cryotech9020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushrooMars Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Added Saryn to mid-range power scaling. Booben=Vauban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Added Saryn to mid-range power scaling. Booben=Vauban. changed and added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephalonShy Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 banshee is low tier even though she adds up to 1000% dmg bonus to team? Gee, are you playing solo all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CM-Syein Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 banshee is low tier even though she adds up to 1000% dmg bonus to team? Gee, are you playing solo all the time? That damage bonus only useful if she alive. Since her 3 and 4 are completely broken. Sonar and Sonic boom alone can't carry her far in survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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