The Eviscerators Megathread

[Calayne]

Maybe we should all go with Excalibur, Loki and Mag. I think that's going to test your skill at dodging those blades.

Oh, and do try to take a video if you solo with that gear. I'd like to learn a thing or two.

[shut]

So, OP here. I'm here to post a bit of proof of just how OP the Eviscerator's defenses are. Or, rather, that the Codex is a liar:

 

You see that? They have the EXACT same defense stats. And yet Eviscerators are noted as taking over 5x the damage of an Elite Lancer before they die. I think that definitely needs a look at.

It's the level scaling system. Back in Damage 1.0, Elite Lancers and Eviscerators still had identical base stats, but the minimum level for Eviscerators was 1, whereas the minimum level for Elite Lancers was 20. So, basically, a level 1 Eviscerator was exactly as tanky as a level 20 Elite Lancer, and a level 41 Eviscerator was exactly as tanky as a level 60 Elite Lancer.

 

I suspect that there's a similar case with Damage 2.0 right now. In any case, it needs fixing.

[ThePresident777]

That's odd. Before I managed into a source of electric damage for my primary it would take roughly a clip and a half to two clips to down an eviscerator and 3/4 or less for an elite lancer. Some of that may be due to all the juking both parties were doing to avoid the other, but I still can't kill two eviserators without reloading while I can kill 2-3 elite lancers with that same clip. Maybe your load out is just that effective against Grineer.

Also, if they have line of sight to you, they will be firing, and that can make things tricky on open maps like Earth and Phobos.

 

That's part of what I am saying, new accounts don't have the equipment to take on these enemies.  The problem is that DE messed up the drop tables, again.  In the past year, they have done that at least once a month.

[ThePresident777]

Maybe we should all go in with Karaks, with only basic elemental mods and Fast hands, stabilizers if you want to feel safe, and try it out.

Whaddaya say, President? And maybe a rank 4 redirection and vitality on any frame, even Rhino. If you want Focus or flow, I'm afraid it's gotta be unranked. Most newbies don't even have those. And that's before they Rank 30 their frames too, I bet. If they get to earth fast, in their excitement, maybe rank 15 at worst.

 

I totally agree.  And that is not how things were in April when I first started playing.  Mods used to drop like crazy and it was enough to get goin.  But, since mod upgrades are exponential, maxing them takes tons and tons of mods and credits.  This was the case until we got mod sharing then DE nerfed mod drops like mad.  Now we get 5 billion fast hands and slash dashes like they matter but a plain electricity mod is a frikin rare now.

 

Asking DE to nerf evicerators is not going to change that.  Then, when you finally do get some good mods, the enemies will be pathetically easy and people will be asking for buffs.  Then calling for nerfs again.  Then calling for buffs again.  It never ends.  It's a total fail because the problem was never the enemy, it was the drop tables.

Edited February 11, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

Maybe we should all go with Excalibur, Loki and Mag. I think that's going to test your skill at dodging those blades.

Oh, and do try to take a video if you solo with that gear. I'd like to learn a thing or two.

 

I don't have video gear.  But, it's just being careful, using cover, and using range to my advantage instead of running in blind.   Get up close against an opening and show only as much of yourself as you need to aim and shoot.  Take cover while they are shooting then peak out to shoot them.

 

If you play with a team then the enemy has more targets so you get more freedom to be out in the open.  But, when they pick you to be their target, then you have to switch to cover.

Edited February 11, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

It's the level scaling system. Back in Damage 1.0, Elite Lancers and Eviscerators still had identical base stats, but the minimum level for Eviscerators was 1, whereas the minimum level for Elite Lancers was 20. So, basically, a level 1 Eviscerator was exactly as tanky as a level 20 Elite Lancer, and a level 41 Eviscerator was exactly as tanky as a level 60 Elite Lancer.

 

I suspect that there's a similar case with Damage 2.0 right now. In any case, it needs fixing.

 

 

Napalms and bombards are even more deadly.  Should they get nerfed too?

[Cursor]

Napalms and bombards are even more deadly.  Should they get nerfed too?

 

Yes?

[Neutralred]

Maybe we should all go in with Karaks, with only basic elemental mods and Fast hands, stabilizers if you want to feel safe, and try it out.

Whaddaya say, President? And maybe a rank 4 redirection and vitality on any frame, even Rhino. If you want Focus or flow, I'm afraid it's gotta be unranked. Most newbies don't even have those. And that's before they Rank 30 their frames too, I bet. If they get to earth fast, in their excitement, maybe rank 15 at worst.

 

I'm sorry, but Karaks? Karak requires Salvage to make, which you get on Mars at the earliest - ie., after earth. Your choices are Braton, Mk-1 Braton, and Strun.

 

Got buddies doing earth, they were lvl 15 on most of their gear by the time they hit Eurasia. Think I was 17 or so on my first time - had stuck around a bit to run Mercury Defense. Good luck dealing with Eviscerator bleeds on that.

[Calayne]

I totally agree.  And that is not how things were in April when I first started playing.  Mods used to drop like crazy and it was enough to get goin.  But, since mod upgrades are exponential, maxing them takes tons and tons of mods and credits.  This was the case until we got mod sharing then DE nerfed mod drops like mad.  Now we get 5 billion fast hands and slash dashes like they matter but a plain electricity mod is a frikin rare now.

 

Asking DE to nerf evicerators is not going to change that.  Then, when you finally do get some good mods, the enemies will be pathetically easy and people will be asking for buffs.  Then calling for nerfs again.  Then calling for buffs again.  It never ends.  It's a total fail because the problem was never the enemy, it was the drop tables.

Okay, now you're making a lot of good sense.

But that's really only part of the problem. I think the distribution of "challenge" now is strange. On the one hand, vets complain of no challenge. On the other hand, monstrous one-hit-wonders on Earth, a starting planet. And after that, nothing new.

This is the strangest thing ever. I think eviscerators need to keep calm and move to a later system. And even there, some tweaking to the bleed proc would be nice, so that it is neither ineffective nor stupid-strong.

There is a middle ground for most people that can be handled, between easy and hard. And when that is achieved as a baseline for all, we can implement difficulty. Easy mode for beginners which yield little affinity and common drops only, or a Hard mode where enemies deal double damage, have higher proc chance and drop better loot and resources.

But that can't be done now, because our power levels are all over the place, from the most incompetent to bordering on divine punishment.

Definitely, fixing the drop table may alleviate some of this issue. But this is not a cure, only a symptom. To have made these mods utterly necessary is not the way to go.

Mods were meant to enhance your gun, not be an integral part of it. And with the way it works, power growth for most players are exponential, with big, flat plateaus in between where we struggle to grind mods.

Is that the way it has to be for ever and ever more?

I surely hope not.

[Calayne]

I'm sorry, but Karaks? Karak requires Salvage to make, which you get on Mars at the earliest - ie., after earth. Your choices are Braton, Mk-1 Braton, and Strun.

 

Got buddies doing earth, they were lvl 15 on most of their gear by the time they hit Eurasia. Think I was 17 or so on my first time - had stuck around a bit to run Mercury Defense. Good luck dealing with Eviscerator bleeds on that.

I was actually trying to be generous ;)

But the point is made here, and by someone who is in the thick of it. We should listen, and acknowledge that this is a legitimate problem where it is.

Either because the bleed itself is insane, the eviscerators are too strong or the condition for bleed is screwed, it does not matter. What matters is that there IS a problem, especially for new players and we should fix it.

[Darksind]

Napalms and bombards are even more deadly.  Should they get nerfed too?

They're not. They are harder to kill but they never put out the same amount of damage. Eviscerators are more of a pain than Napalms.

[xWindScar]

Napalms and bombards are even more deadly.  Should they get nerfed too?

They are the "heavy" tier of Grineers. Eviscerators are the "uncommon" tier, and spawn way more often, give less exp, and I think are deadlier than any other enemy type.Only invulnerability can save you from death against them.

[Calayne]

Napalms are actually also stupid strong.

BUT! For the Napalms, they are only situationally stupid strong, and that is if they are given enough time to light the whole place on fire and with a host of grunts. It also helps that they telegraph their attack with a huge, roaring projectile that travels leisurely through the air.

Eviscerators are less dependant on their allies to be monsters. I think that may be one of the beef we have.

It'd be nice if they fired in bursts of two or three shots, but I've faced them firing more than six or seven in close combat. It's just... REALLY weird.

[Neutralred]

They're not. They are harder to kill but they never put out the same amount of damage. Eviscerators are more of a pain than Napalms.

 

They're not even harder to kill. They stand still and don't bother using cover. Eviscerators chain-fire while running at full tilt and using cover.

[Onisa]

That's part of what I am saying, new accounts don't have the equipment to take on these enemies.  The problem is that DE messed up the drop tables, again.  In the past year, they have done that at least once a month.

And I'm saying that with the 'proper' equipment it's taking me 2-3 times the ammunition to down an Everserator vs an Elite Lancer.

Heck, I could one shot them both with penta before stormbringer, but that's not good data. I'll probably go back later with a braton to see how an even spread weapon does vs one that specializes in puncture.

[Calayne]

Actually, I'm gonna go there right now with an Excalibur with no mods, other than abilities, at all to see what newbies get it like. In fact, a Rank 30 Excalibur probably has it a little easier than most people do, because there's a guaranteed increase of energy, HP and Shields. 

 

And I'm gonna try it with my Braton, Sicarus and some melee weapon. Probably all with unranked mods, and no multishot. Also, only these mods: Fire mods, which are easy to get, Armor piercing mod, which should drop by then, and Fast Hands and Ammo Drum. 

 

Wish me luck!

[Tsukinoki]

@Calayne

Hopefully you don't come across an "Ice Leader Eviscerator" like I did not too long ago. With its cold aura there goes the ability to dodge, and its even tankier than before, and thats without considering its snow globe, and those things can and do show up on Earth if you just get unlucky.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Onisa]

@Calayne

Hopefully you don't come across an "Ice Leader Eviscerator" like I did not too long ago. With its cold aura there goes the ability to dodge, and its even tankier than before, and thats without considering its snow globe, and those things can and do show up on Earth if you just get unlucky.

That sounds horrifying. Not sure if technically worse than Ice leader Kela De Thaym though. Nah, bleed is worse than blast.

[Calayne]

@Calayne

Hopefully you don't come across an "Ice Leader Eviscerator" like I did not too long ago. With its cold aura there goes the ability to dodge, and its even tankier than before, and thats without considering its snow globe, and those things can and do show up on Earth if you just get unlucky.

 

YOU JINXED IT, BUDDY! LOL! I didn't meet the Ice Leader Eviscerator, though, but I met two Leaders in a row... Talk about S#&$ luck.

 

Here's what I ran with:

Proof of suckage: Revive 0|4

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, I got totally owned. I'm not gonna lie, I sucked pretty hard. Exterminate was okay. The enemies generally don't spawn out of nowhere, and you can predict where they're gonna come from, and how to attack. That was actually really, really easy. I got hit by an Eviscerator once, to try it out. Insta-bleed, on the first hit. 30 damage a tick, brought my 300 HP Excalibur to 119.

 

In this mode, the Elite Lancers are actually more dangerous: They deal about 30-40 damage per hit, I think, and go through shields pretty quick. They're somewhat accurate at range too, and take lots of cover. The eviscerators are impotent at range, and I took them down first very easily. I learned the hard way that you probably shouldn't compete DPS with an Elite Lancer, though. And that Helions should be looked out for, because them missiles track and knock down. I died.

 

The biggest problem came in the next mode, Sabotage. I brought a weak antitoxin, just to see if it's solo-able with little to no mods.

 

The beginning was fine, as the enemies generally performed just as in Exterminate mission did. The problems came after I inserted the antitoxin.

 

Grineer Helions, Eviscerators, Seekers and Elite Lancers just poured over from everywhere. This is the first encounter with a Leader: Elite Grineer Lancer Ice Leader. I went into its ice shield, tried to shoot it to death, but was out-gunned. I revived, and changed tactics. I slash dash it three times, and it finally dies. Eviscerators begin to close in, A Grineer Helion spams rocket, I get knocked down and one Eviscerator manages to get into spamming range (There is a sweet spot of about 5-10 meters when they begin spamming about five to six blades a second). I die. 

 

About now, I was getting pretty tired of their S#&$: Rolling mitigates damage but does not render you immune to knockdown from Blast, as I just found out. The bright side is, the damage reduction while rolling is actually pretty good! Unfortunately, I was still surrounded by Seekers and Elite Lancers. Fortunately, the Toxin injector is huge, and blocked most of the projectiles. I gun them down, and the timer finishes. By this time, I only have one revive left, so I run the Hell out of there. Slash Dash works wonders, and I manage to get a certain distance before bumping into another Eviscerator. He spams the blades, but I start rolling. I kill him, but some of the blades hit me mid-roll, and now I'm bleeding, and my 200+ HP from getting my &#! trashed by a Helion is now at 28.

 

Like a turtle, I let my shields grow back to 300 as I slowly crawl from corner to corner, killing eveything in the way.

 

Then.... THEN... Ice Leader Grineer Helion. Slash dash the bastard a few times, doesn't die. He spams rockets, I roll, but the blast knocks me down. Missile spam. Die. I spam slash dash again and he goes down, but by now, I have no revives left. I try to run to the extraction, just one map away. As I run past a rock, an Elite Lancer hiding behind a rock spams his Karak and I'm dead in a few seconds.

 

So. Mission Fail. 

 

I think I'm about average in terms of skill level, so this display kind of shows me that I need to "Get gud", but also that Earth is very unfriendly to solo-players. It's pretty challenging, I admit, and it's quite exciting. But bleed took out almost 200hp one proc, and most spell-casters never get that much without Vitality. Something is sincerely wrong with that. There is no way for you to dodge all the bullets AND the homing missiles, and those things knock you down quite often, and that isn't even considering the Leader classes yet. 

 

It seems pretty clear that DE either wants us to team up with people and just about destroy solo-ing chances for newbies, or Earth could use a little difficulty tweaking.

[Onisa]

Ice leaders aren't even the worst. Imagine if either of those had been a Mag Leader.

 

It also brings up the point that all the players that want to ramp up the difficulty should just dump their mods until they're challenged again.

[ThePresident777]

Warframe is a coop game, or so DE says.  Which doesn't mean that solo should be impossible, since that would be impractical because you can't always find people to play with, and it reduces your customer base. 

 

But, you guys are making my point.  Without mods, the game does not scale.  The mods have always been and are still part of the difficulty equation and by messing up the loot tables and making basic mods rare, DE has made the game terrible for new players.  DE should repair the loot table, yet again, and keep it from breaking in the future.

[Onisa]

Warframe is a coop game, or so DE says.  Which doesn't mean that solo should be impossible, since that would be impractical because you can't always find people to play with, and it reduces your customer base. 

 

But, you guys are making my point.  Without mods, the game does not scale.  The mods have always been and are still part of the difficulty equation and by messing up the loot tables and making basic mods rare, DE has made the game terrible for new players.  DE should repair the loot table, yet again, and keep it from breaking in the future.

This problem isn't solely created by the lack of needed mods. It's only compounded by it.

 

200 direct health damage on a lower level planet?

 

How will any mod or mods ranked 2-4 times save a level 10-15 warframe from that? Mind you, that's ONE hit. Given the fire rate I've seen on Eviserators you could get hit 4 or 5 times before you turn around if one gets the drop on you. That's a potential 1000 direct damage.

 

Well isn't that what team mates are for?

 

Sure, if there's only one Eviserator your team can cover whoever picks you up, but chances are there's another one or two in the room behind cover waiting to spring. Mind you they'd probably only hit once or twice each, but you can see how that can end.

 

Earth has night missions to boot. I don't know if mobs key off flashlights, but the sure don't carry them.

And guess who's styling in dark green armor?

[Garuger]

Earth has night missions to boot. I don't know if mobs key off flashlights, but the sure don't carry them.

And guess who's styling in dark green armor?

Dr.Van Doom or Green Latern?

Edited February 11, 2014 by Garuger

[Wahooo]

Last few days of playing, earth and phobos and pluto alerts siding with the corpus, I am more convinced than ever that warframe players need to learn how to move and shoot at the same time.

[Xylia]

What about Napalms? This logic seems to say they're busted too (though perhaps not as a bad as Eviscerators).

With that out of the way, I totally agree with you. 

 

Napalms are treated as Heavy Units in that outside of Survival/High Wave Defense, they spawn a lot less often than Eviscerators do. They are also slow, large, and never take cover (unlike Eviscerators).