The Melee 2.0 Anticipation Megathread

[Angius]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS O^O

...if only we had a frame that could pull off that assthetic.. T^T

Saryn + Scoliac = Dominatrix Build.

[-Himari-]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS O^O

...if only we had a frame that could pull off that assthetic.. T^T

 

Haha, one can only hope.

[AngelGuardcc]

Ember with the whip

 

 

hope its like the Ivy o_O

[gnat6]

Saryn + Scoliac = Dominatrix Build.

Add phage + stug for the full innuendo build.

[Thysania]

Nikatana + Nikazaki combo! =)

[Auroan]

     So I woke up much later than normal people today and only got the last few minutes of the Dev Stream. However, I watched most of the video and saw/heard some of their new cool features they'll be having and coming out with. 

 

     DESteve mentioned that working on Melee 2.0, they had to change some things around because it felt to much like DMC. Obviously, since DMC is one of my favorite all-time series, I'd like to see a wicked combat system full of smooth, organized combos.

     No offense to Ninja Gaiden, as I loved the Sigma series (Sigma 2 is the best, imo), but as cool as I'd be to see flashy billion-hit combos and finishers where you chop off limbs and such, I feel like NG combos play themselves, especially with charged attacks/combos. So, I'm glad DE went with more of a blend between traditional Warframe and DMC than NG. BUT! Keep up the cool finishers. They looked legit in the Stream today, so hopefully we all can see some more bloody, awesome finishers in the future.

 

 

     ---[Oh, on a side note regarding finishers and chopping off limbs. Something DE might want to touch up on is how limbs break off. Multiple times I'd shoot, say, the leg, and their arm would break off. Also, when killing infested, such as those half-ripped crawlers, I'd shoot them and see body limbs, like a leg, come out of no where. They don't even have legs!]---

 

 

     So I like the fact that they added some DMC elements/feels to Melee 2.0, and as a DMC fan, more improvements on the combat is always welcomed, though, from what I see/hear, not needed (we'll see in the future). What I'm super excited about though is all the new Clan changes. I won't go on my infamous TLDR ramps about what I like and why, but in a nutshell, I like what I heard and saw and you guys at DE are doing an awesome job! Keep it up!

 

                                                                                  ----------------------

 

     I did find something rather disappointing though. Yes, that's right, I'm disappointed that PvP will not be implemented into the new Clan updates. I know I'm not the only one who sighed at this. As a PvE focused game still in Open Beta, I understand perfectly that the core of attention should be set on the foundation of what makes the game what it is. Changes and additions to UI, AI, maps, etc. are all necessities, and once PvE is on a steady foot, that'll make PvP even more easy to work on. However, it doesn't hurt to make some quick fixes to the PvP elements that's already out (can't go more than one, or two rounds without having host reconnect so that players can move again) and throw in some additional things here and there for us PvP'ers to chew on and for you, DE, to experiment with for future updates. 

 

     From what I've concluded, Clan Solar Rail battles are nothing more than Invasions between clans instead of factions. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it, but I'm sure a lot of players were hoping and would like to see actual battles between clans. 

 

     This is where I thought it'd be cool to implement an element from Dark Souls.

     So you can already make your own clan, and now, you can make an alliance with other clans. How about making your own alliance with factions? To anyone whose played Dark Souls, you'll know about the Indictment list and Blade of the Dark Moon, a covenant that records the sins of others and allows players to avenge those fallen, similar to Stalker. You'll also remember the Forest Hunter, a covenant that allows you to invade players whom trespass onto your covenant territory. 

 

     Obviously, there would need to be qualifications you would have to fulfill first in order to join the Corpus, Grineer, Infested, or even Stalker. Of course, this would slightly go against lore as well, but only slightly. I say this because as a Tenno himself, Stalker decided to choose a different path and has a different sense of justice. Would this make him less "bad-&#!", or "special"? Meh, not necessarily, as I think players would not only think it honorable and fun, but quite cool to not only serve the mighty Stalker as their leader and follow his vengeful, mysterious beliefs on what is right and wrong, whom is the real traitor, etc., but to also fight along side with him when invading players as well. 

 

     Again, just an idea up in the air that I thought would be cool and help the PvP side of Warframe. Dark Souls is very popular and seems to have pulled such an alliance idea off quite well. I know other games, such as Tera Online, also implemented an Alliance feature in their game some time ago and that was quite successful, so I believe that Warframe can do the same. I mean, yeah, it already is, but I definitely see great potential of growth and options for it down the road that players of different play-style can enjoy.

[Lunamaniac]

I guess every game would be better if it's like Dark Souls. So I totally agree.

[SolidSp33d]

Something I've noticed from watching the stream, which was what I wanted to verify at the very beginning.

 

Around 52:22, Scott tries to close in distance with a Heavy Gunner while parrying. However, even though he seems to be holding the block button, he still gets radial blasted by the Heavy.

 

So what's the point of trying to melee a Heavy if they can still knock you down easily like this? I, personally, am able to avoid most of the radial blast by luring them to use it and dodge away. Even so, I think that blocking should at least resist the knockdown like you would do with the mods (the Tenno raises their melee weapon and blocks the hit, making them slide backward but still strong on their feet). This also happens against grenades and general explosives with Blast proc it seems (like rockets).

 

Additionally, Heavy units would be the ones you'd target first to get your melee counter on, since they can take the most hits. I think it would be fair to reduce this CC aspect from them so that one can still approach heavy Grineer units with melee, while having to be careful to a certain point.

 

Rebecca asked the question a bit later but I'm not sure what the answer was exactly. Can someone clarify what Scott and Steve said about the Reflex Guard mod and such? I wouldn't like it if they made these mods feel like bandaids for that.

 

I hope this is done for next week.

 

You could have easily answered this yourself just by going to the youtube upload and rewatching the part.

 

Scott send reflecting should have knocked down the Gunner as well, but it didn't because of a bug.

[Ellysium]

I guess every game would be better if it's like Dark Souls. So I totally agree.

Only truth there

[Auroan]

     Legit, if you could join alliances with factions like you could with covenants in Dark Souls, there'd be bloodshed everywhere. Stalker for the win. Get some cool, dark and smokey armor like his, kinda like how you get Dark Wraith in Dark Souls. Check my Death Mark list and go on hunting sprees!

[HAYABU5A]

wish i could -1 for downplaying ninja gaiden

 

1 & 2 are infinitely hardly than even dark souls or DMC

[reltats]

It's always better with a little dark souls style PvP involved.. although the PvP needs so much work before this is even remotely an option. But it would be awesome to see

[Momoynator]

1 - I Agree! Update 13 is gonna be epic!

 

2 - They have already said they will be implementing clans having relationships with the other factions (even hinted at other factions apart from the typical grineer, corpus, infested ones)

 

3 - The Stalker wasn't a Tenno last I checked, I could be wrong. Last I heard, he was a "Guardian" and such, he does represent a whole other faction.

 

4 - You said so yourself, Warframe is PvE oriented at it's very core. If PvP is ever going to come in any plausible way to the game, it'll be much farther down the road. The implementation of Conclaves WAS their testing for future updates. Could they change their minds? Perhaps. But a majority of the payers here are playing because it's a PvE and not a PvP. It just brings so much more to the game that it would be like another Update 13 all over again (including all the delays and waits) when they could be working on something much more important (perhaps only in my eyes?) such as new player experience, lore, bug fixes, tile sets, power revamps, damage revamps and more (not necessarily in that order of priority).

 

 

But at the end of the day, thats my two cents...

[SolidSp33d]

Where did I put my upvote cannon?

 

I've been saying recently that Dark Souls style PvP would fit in perfectly with warframe.

Of course there is the issue of PvP still being terribly imbalanced atm.

 

I'd think that to start, invaders would probably be only able to select certain primaries and secondaries. Like bows and other non-hit-scan stuff. And not Penta or Ogris. XD

 

I don't think these orders would plainly be with the main factions. Stalker is even more far fetched lol.

They would be secret orders that are supposed to come in Proxy Wars. In fact the Red Veil, one of the announced orders, would be perfect as one of them.

 

Also it there needs to be a certain state you put yourself in or item you equip that would allow you to be invaded, but also has a good reason to use it. Like humanity in dark souls. (I know you can get invaded at all times in Dark Souls 2 now, but the choice of "flagging" would be much better for Warframe.)

 

There is a ton of potential for a system like this in Warframe. I'll be preaching it to the devs forever XD

Seriously, when they get to PvP later, this would be sweet.

Edited April 5, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[03-AALIYAH-]

ive been asking for dark souls like pvp for a while now... im all for it

[ensignvidiot]

You could have easily answered this yourself just by going to the youtube upload and rewatching the part.

 

Scott send reflecting should have knocked down the Gunner as well, but it didn't because of a bug.

 

I thought he said he forgot that mod. I've gotten it a few times from survival, im happy i havent sold it

[Casardis]

You could have easily answered this yourself just by going to the youtube upload and rewatching the part.

 

Scott send reflecting should have knocked down the Gunner as well, but it didn't because of a bug.

 

I rewatched the part and I couldn't make up exactly what he was saying, most likely because of my own hearing issues. This is why I asked.

 

I don't seem to be the only one, since the person who replied to me above said that Scott mentioned Reflex Guard needed to be equipped to reflect the Grineer Radial Blast, which is what I understood at first.

[ensignvidiot]

No.

No.

No. a million times no.

 

If we have convenants where we would invade other players to kill them, every weapon would need to be nerfed. I'd be a darkwriath and run around with my 4 Forma Straith. The Harvester, G3, and The Stalker all only take 1 trigger pull to kill. Rhino? Okay, ill shoot you twice. Frost? Meet Punch Through. Trinity? You arent invulnerable during Blessing's Cast Animation. Actually, it wouldnt even need to get to that point, Loki's radial disarm does MAGNETIC DAMAGE to all frames. So now you dont have any energy, no sheilds, i am holding a weapon that can 1 shot you, and you cant see me.

 

So now, on top of the grind, you have Mastery rank 12+ players like me, making life miserable for everyone else. Any mission you do, you now have to worry about a deathmark from one of the 3 assassins, or a high powered player coming to take a revive from you. And the kicker? because its a PLAYER that DOESNT HAVE AI, they can ignore you, walk up to the pod, and kill it. Just to spite you. Why would it be high mastery players attacking everyone? well, we've done and used pretty much all of the content, so at that point we would only have Badlands and Other tenno to mess around with.

 

There is only 1 feature of Darksouls i want, and its already in the game: Counter Attacking.

 

It is the single most satifying thing to get a successful parry with a riposte. To watch an enemy's life bar just empty with one hit. And with the Channeling system, i will be able to do that. Like Darksouls, i can specialize solely for this one-hit-kill melee mechanic. And that makes me happy.

[03-AALIYAH-]

No.

No.

No. a million times no.

 

If we have convenants where we would invade other players to kill them, every weapon would need to be nerfed. I'd be a darkwriath and run around with my 4 Forma Straith. The Harvester, G3, and The Stalker all only take 1 trigger pull to kill. Rhino? Okay, ill shoot you twice. Frost? Meet Punch Through. Trinity? You arent invulnerable during Blessing's Cast Animation. Actually, it wouldnt even need to get to that point, Loki's radial disarm does MAGNETIC DAMAGE to all frames. So now you dont have any energy, no sheilds, i am holding a weapon that can 1 shot you, and you cant see me.

 

So now, on top of the grind, you have Mastery rank 12+ players like me, making life miserable for everyone else. Any mission you do, you now have to worry about a deathmark from one of the 3 assassins, or a high powered player coming to take a revive from you. And the kicker? because its a PLAYER that DOESNT HAVE AI, they can ignore you, walk up to the pod, and kill it. Just to spite you. Why would it be high mastery players attacking everyone? well, we've done and used pretty much all of the content, so at that point we would only have Badlands and Other tenno to mess around with.

 

There is only 1 feature of Darksouls i want, and its already in the game: Counter Attacking.

 

It is the single most satifying thing to get a successful parry with a riposte. To watch an enemy's life bar just empty with one hit. And with the Channeling system, i will be able to do that. Like Darksouls, i can specialize solely for this one-hit-kill melee mechanic. And that makes me happy.

 

damage done to players by players measured by the rank of the weapon instead of the mods to normalize / divide pvp damage from pve

 

done

[ensignvidiot]

damage done to players by players measured by the rank of the weapon instead of the mods to normalize / divide pvp damage from pve

 

done

 

so im being penalized for having a weapon i created just because i created it. So on the defense i cant defend myself effectively because of this arbitrary unbalanced system? If i forma a weapon and am leveling it up, my rank 4 gun does nothing in the face of the rank 30 gun with your system. And on that notion, my Straith will still win. Im done tweaking it, it will always be at rank 30, so now my potential victums may do even less damage to me.

 

Besides that still leaves my Loki, Vauban, and Mag with 100% magnetic procs however. So anything you could kill me with wouldnt matter as much.

 

And if you weaken abilities and weapons against warframes that weakens the stalker again, because he uses our damage resistances and weaknesses with the exception of his sheild, which is different from ours. Not only ours, but warframe resistances are pulled from several tables throught the game.

 

You cant balance a PVE system for PVP without having to uproot the entire system and rebuild everything from the ground up. Forget melee 2.0 and damage 2.0, we would have to go to ability/weapon/melee/damage 4.0 before we could have a system that is balanced enough to reduce the balance complaints to a dull roar.

 

speaking of melee 2.0, how do you plan on balancing combo and parry effects? Let alone the channel system? This is too impractical a thing to implement, let along completely against DE's wishes, as they want to keep this a primarily PvE game.

[Repligon]

No no no. Darksouls system is a nightmare for a PvE player.

I personally hate being forced to PvP. 

[Auroan]

1 - I Agree! Update 13 is gonna be epic!

 

2 - They have already said they will be implementing clans having relationships with the other factions (even hinted at other factions apart from the typical grineer, corpus, infested ones)

 

3 - The Stalker wasn't a Tenno last I checked, I could be wrong. Last I heard, he was a "Guardian" and such, he does represent a whole other faction.

 

4 - You said so yourself, Warframe is PvE oriented at it's very core. If PvP is ever going to come in any plausible way to the game, it'll be much farther down the road. The implementation of Conclaves WAS their testing for future updates. Could they change their minds? Perhaps. But a majority of the payers here are playing because it's a PvE and not a PvP. It just brings so much more to the game that it would be like another Update 13 all over again (including all the delays and waits) when they could be working on something much more important (perhaps only in my eyes?) such as new player experience, lore, bug fixes, tile sets, power revamps, damage revamps and more (not necessarily in that order of priority).

 

 

But at the end of the day, thats my two cents...

 

     Now that you mention it, I believe I do remember DESteven saying something like that a few Dev Streams ago. I'm definitely looking forward to it! 

     

     The Warframe lore is definitely shrouded in mystery, mainly it's past during The Great War, but I know I'm coming close to solving it. From what I've concluded, Stalker is indeed a Tenno. We know that there are different ranks and roles for the Tenno. Sayandana's prove this. Stalker was a Guardian. Perhaps a different faction, but part of the same Empire all together. Whether him being "low" was a description of his rank, or a description of his setting since he stated he was hiding with the other Guardian's is up for debate. However, when stated "Our cold and gold Emperor's", it's clear they all served the same ruler and were part of the same empire. An empire he, and small group of others, deemed cruel, or "cold", as he put it. The fact that he also has the same fashion as the Tenno, such as their suit, powers, and sense of honor in terms of blade and fun and appearance/departure further backs up the theory he is one of them.

 

     PvE is great and I love it, but, it still does have some aspects that need, or could use some improvement, so I do agree with you that it should remain it's main focus. However, I believe there should be options for people with different play-styles as well. Should they force PvP down people's throats who don't want it? Absolutely not. This is why they'll need to add the option to restrict invasions via new options, or implement it into the "Invite Only", or "Private" option. However, they should fix what they have at the very least, and implement some more features into it down the road. Sooner rather than later, IMO. But again, I just believe in options to help appease players of all play-styles.

 

Where did I put my upvote cannon?

 

I've been saying recently that Dark Souls style PvP would fit in perfectly with warframe.

Of course there is the issue of PvP still being terribly imbalanced atm.

 

I'd think that to start, invaders would probably be only able to select certain primaries and secondaries. Like bows and other non-hit-scan stuff. And not Penta or Ogris. XD

 

I don't think these orders would plainly be with the main factions. Stalker is even more far fetched lol.

They would be secret orders that are supposed to come in Proxy Wars. In fact the Red Veil, one of the announced orders, would be perfect as one of them.

 

Also it there needs to be a certain state you put yourself in or item you equip that would allow you to be invaded, but also has a good reason to use it. Like humanity in dark souls. (I know you can get invaded at all times in Dark Souls 2 now, but the choice of "flagging" would be much better for Warframe.)

 

There is a ton of potential for a system like this in Warframe. I'll be preaching it to the devs forever XD

Seriously, when they get to PvP later, this would be sweet.

 

     PvP is not only broken, but indeed, very unbalanced. This is because it's PvE focused, so they balance their stats based upon feedback on PvE, not PvP. Even then, there's still a problem because everyone always complain to the Dev's that they need to not only buff, but add more enemies to the game since they 1-shot Stalker and even level 60+ enemies and such still. Once you hit "End-Game", there's not much of a challenge anymore unless you purposely go out of your way to place handicap's on yourself. So there definitely need to be some re-balancing, that's for sure. 

 

     As mentioned, there should definitely be certain standards/qualifications. Stalker will always be my example since he's my knight in shining...erm...dark armor. However, let's say to join him, you must prove yourself to him. He will send you on quests to kill players Death Marked. You're limited to 1 kill per day, and each kill builds your trust with him. Stalker will have certain requirements, such as kill the player only with secondary weapon, or a weapon of his choice that he will provide for that exclusive quest. Once you earn enough trust, you are welcomed to pledge yourself to him/his alliance. In it, you will receive a tracking device of sorts, similar to Red Eye Orbs and Book of Indictment, that you will use to check players Death Marked and invade them.

     The more players you kill, the more your rank increases in his alliance. The higher your rank, the more players you can invade per day, and the more points you accumulate. As I've mentioned in my previous topics, they should ditch RNG for a point system. For Stalker, G3 and Harvester anyways, at the very least. You kill Stalker, you get points exclusive for Stalker gear. Continue to kill him, you get and save more points and then buy what you want instead of praying to RNG that something other than Dread drops, if anything at all.

[reltats]

damage done to players by players measured by the rank of the weapon instead of the mods to normalize / divide pvp damage from pve

 

done

 

Also it there needs to be a certain state you put yourself in or item you equip that would allow you to be invaded, but also has a good reason to use it. Like humanity in dark souls. (I know you can get invaded at all times in Dark Souls 2 now, but the choice of "flagging" would be much better for Warframe.)

 

good solutions are good imo

Edited April 5, 2014 by reltats

[Auroan]

so im being penalized for having a weapon i created just because i created it. So on the defense i cant defend myself effectively because of this arbitrary unbalanced system? If i forma a weapon and am leveling it up, my rank 4 gun does nothing in the face of the rank 30 gun with your system. And on that notion, my Straith will still win. Im done tweaking it, it will always be at rank 30, so now my potential victums may do even less damage to me.

 

Besides that still leaves my Loki, Vauban, and Mag with 100% magnetic procs however. So anything you could kill me with wouldnt matter as much.

 

And if you weaken abilities and weapons against warframes that weakens the stalker again, because he uses our damage resistances and weaknesses with the exception of his sheild, which is different from ours. Not only ours, but warframe resistances are pulled from several tables throught the game.

 

You cant balance a PVE system for PVP without having to uproot the entire system and rebuild everything from the ground up. Forget melee 2.0 and damage 2.0, we would have to go to ability/weapon/melee/damage 4.0 before we could have a system that is balanced enough to reduce the balance complaints to a dull roar.

 

speaking of melee 2.0, how do you plan on balancing combo and parry effects? Let alone the channel system? This is too impractical a thing to implement, let along completely against DE's wishes, as they want to keep this a primarily PvE game.

 

     I won't lie, it'll take time, but let's face it, as I've said above, the entire damage system needs a rework. Everyone complains that they 1-shot Stalker and even level 60's in survival/defense. Unless you've spent good time in your survival/defense, level 30's on basic missions just won't cut it anymore. They either need to add more enemies and more levels, or, what I'd prefer, redo the entire damage system. Or, just do what WoW does. Have PvE damage, and make it so when your in PvP, your stuff does 70% less damage so you're not falling of in PvE, but not OP in PvP.

 

No no no. Darksouls system is a nightmare for a PvE player.

I personally hate being forced to PvP. 

 

     As I mentioned above, people should never be forced into something they don't enjoy. This is why they'll need to add the option to restrict invasions via new options, or implement it into the "Invite Only", or "Private" option. However, they should fix what they have at the very least, and implement some more features into it down the road. Sooner rather than later, IMO.

[neKroMancer]

What DE need to take from Dark soul isn't PvP, it's how to implement challenge and difficulty in a hard but fair way. Learning curve that gets steeper as player progress into the game.

Dark Soul PvP isn't suit for Warframe unless you get to play as G3, Zanuka, Stalker without any modification and get to play randomly. If player can carry gears into PvP then we will have a very hard time playing the game since lack of security will be a big issue which will be raised from this mode. Playing defense? Good bye pod. Playing Lares to level up newly farmaed weapon? Say hello to one less revive. As far as I can see, it doesn't have enough merit to be considered as a good addition to the game.

However, as I stated above, difficulty and fair challenge are what we need in this game. Not as hard as DS since difficulty turned it into a pretty niche game suitable for those with patience and mild masochistic trait. Pattern, dodgeable attack, blocking, countering are good recipe that DE will add in U13. More of these are needed. Less stunlock, more pattern.