Was Hysteria's Change Really A Step In The Right Direction?

[Terrornaut]

Was Hysteria's change really a step in the right direction?

We now have this new hybrid system where an ability is directly affected by gear.  What this has done in this specific case is limit the player's arsenal choice to 3-5 melee weapons if they want to be as effective as possible.  Pre-change, hysteria did its own amount of damage based on power strength and we could take whatever melee weapon we want.  More power strength = more damage.  What was the problem with old hysteria's function?

We now have a system that is a halfway implemented concept.  You can kind of use your weapon in hysteria - but not really.  Why weren't the damage numbers simply boosted?  This feels like one of the rare cases where that would have been an answer.

It seems DE will not let go of hysteria = claws. Fine, they're married to another concept.  Why introduce a change that severely limits player options for gameplay? (not to mention its not even documented so there are probably plenty of people playing a totally gimped hysteria)

It feels completely half-implemented. It fixes a problem of damage for hysteria in an overcomplicated, poorly implemented way.

Suggestions:

-Remove the current weapon-stat-effect on hysteria

-Offer added crit and power based on power strength. Throw in diminishing returns if there is a concern on values escalating too high (over current dual ichor amounts)

-Finish the halfway implemented system and remove the claw-equipment requirement on hysteria and allow players to go that route if they choose to equip obex or kogake. This may require additional weapon-swing fx created for different weapon types (or it could just apply a glow to the player's equipped melee weapon)

-Add a scaling % value buff that boosts Hysteria damage per hit that caps at a certain amount to avoid overscaling. This would reward staying in Hysteria longer. I currently have a build that focuses on warcry so I can use my melee weapons, but it has the (imo) unfortunate benefit of making hysteria last 45 or so seconds.  That's a long, long time to be stuck in just to heal.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Terrornaut

[Vahlak]

I am having trouble finding words for this.

 

 Wheres that stupid Jackie Chan meme...

 

 

But in all seriousness, Hysteria is actually usable without being just a revive monkey for your team.  And to be honest, the fact that some weapons work with it better is a good thing, it adds more depth to the system, that it sorely needs. ( IMO)

[Vargras]

Because pre-change, even with power strength, Hysteria's damage was laughably low and the skill really only did well in the "I'm invincible" aspect.

[KijaJouteh]

I am having trouble finding words for this.

 

 Wheres that stupid Jackie Chan meme...

 

 

But in all seriousness, Hysteria is actually usable without being just a revive monkey for your team.  And to be honest, the fact that some weapons work with it better is a good thing, it adds more depth to the system, that it sorely needs. ( IMO)

I think it's mainly basing this off melee 2.0, where weapons that are good in hysteria =/ weapons that are good melee 2.0

[Vahlak]

I think it's mainly basing this off melee 2.0, where weapons that are good in hysteria =/ weapons that are good melee 2.0

If that is the case it is FAR too early to be asking for changes to a system no one has experienced yet .

[Terrornaut]

But in all seriousness, Hysteria is actually usable without being just a revive monkey for your team.  And to be honest, the fact that some weapons work with it better is a good thing, it adds more depth to the system, that it sorely needs. ( IMO)

I'm not certain you read my post. I never said Hysteria was unusable. It is very effective, but extremely limiting. There were other easy ways to boost its damage beyond the current design.

[HellEnforcer]

 Why do you have to put so many inderlines and bold cases?

 

I fail to see how this limits the choices though. Hysteria can do well without incredible melee weapons. Also, before this change Hysteria's damage was a total joke.

 

 I like the idea of the powers being tied up somehow to your equipment. It actually opens more customization other than simply by using mods, which goes against what you say of limiting the choices.

 

 I am really wondering what kind of melee weapon with low damage are you wanting to use to claim such thing and just say a straight buff to damage.

[Terrornaut]

Because it attracts the eye to central points and helps people that are going to skim through.

 

I can blender through level 35 and 45 enemies with no problem with my fang prime weapons.  If I go into hysteria, my damage drops off a ton. This is an easy example.

Hysteria's damage was bad before. That's what I've said, but it could have had its damage boosted in so many other ways.  Only accepting crit, crit multiplier, and possibly base damage are very limiting in terms of what weapons you can take and be extremely effective. I can crit level 40ish mobs for 4k with dual ichors...or...hit them for maybe 800s with fang prime.  If you're going to use this system of using weapon stats, use them more fully so more weapons are accessible and interact with hysteria.

[rapt0rman]

 Why do you have to put so many inderlines and bold cases?

 

People like TL:DRs, it certainly made it easier for me to skim through his main points.

[Cyrionn]

 Why do you have to put so many inderlines and bold cases?

 

I fail to see how this limits the choices though. Hysteria can do well without incredible melee weapons. Also, before this change Hysteria's damage was a total joke.

 

 I like the idea of the powers being tied up somehow to your equipment. It actually opens more customization other than simply by using mods, which goes against what you say of limiting the choices.

 

 I am really wondering what kind of melee weapon with low damage are you wanting to use to claim such thing and just say a straight buff to damage.

That's wrong, before the update Hysteria was dealing nearly as good damages as it is now, only a Dual Ichor build overdamages the old Hysteria version.

And then I don't see the point in making an ability relevant with only 3 different weapons, instead of adding depth it just add another handicap to frame that doesn't need it at all. With the current Hysteria ranking up a melee weapon is something you can forget about giving people another reason to not play Valkyr.

 

 

If that is the case it is FAR too early to be asking for changes to a system no one has experienced yet .

I'm not sure melee 2.0 will actually modify weapon stats. And it has clearly been stated by DE, melee 2.0 won't affect Hysteria.

[HellEnforcer]

People like TL:DRs, it certainly made it easier for me to skim through his main points.

 

 Glad it worked for you. It was incredibly distracting to me and had to reread a lot.

 

 

 

That's wrong, before the update Hysteria was dealing nearly as good damages as it is now, only a Dual Ichor build overdamages the old Hysteria version.

And then I don't see the point in making an ability relevant with only 3 different weapons, instead of adding depth it just add another handicap to frame that doesn't need it at all. With the current Hysteria ranking up a melee weapon is something you can forget about giving people another reason to not play Valkyr.

 

 

 I would have to check that again then. To me it seems I can deal a lot of damage when I have my galatine or gram equipped than I could do before. Unfortunately I never took notes of numbers, but that's my impression.

 

 If that was the case, then only low damage weapons would or could have lower damage than the old hysteria, making the choices a lot more than just 3 or anything close to it, but rather all but dual weapons. Then again, I need to confirm this somehow as I can't tell how bad it was before, but it certainly seemed a lot worse than it is now.

 

 I like the idea of having hysteria take the other stats as well, not just damage but critical rate and attack speed.

[GSDAkatsuki]

I'm still waiting on DE just letting us use our melees instead utilizing this terrible melee function. When games offer a melee only mode that's pretty much going super saiyan, than the attacks and general usage should be versatile and very powerful. I'm not getting that from its current system.

[Cyrionn]

Thourough tests have been done though, here is the formula :

 

Hysteria pre-U12, Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge:

100 x 1.75 x 2.29 x 1.18 x 3 = 1419 total damage before resistances ( 2837 / 5675 damage crits )

 

Current Hysteria, Jat Kitteg w/ Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike + Organ Shatter:

3 x [ 100 + ( 1.75 / 3 ) x 80 x 2.29 x ( 1.55 + 2.2 ) ] = 1502 total damage before resistances ( 4281 / 8563 damage crits )

 

Current Hysteria, Dual Ichor w/ Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike + Organ Shatter:

3 x [ 100 + ( 1.75 / 3 ) x 35 x 2.29 x ( 1.55 + 2.2 ) ] = 822 total damage before resistances ( 4686 / 9372 damage crits )

Thanks to PsycloneM, extract from this topic : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u12/?p=2051215

 

Don't forget to take in consideration that Hysteria used to have 50% crit chances, when you can only reach 40% on Ichor and 8% on most of the melee weapons.

 

The nerf isn't that hard, I admit. But it still is a nerf, and on top of that your radius of relevant melee weaps is highly reduced.

 

So in my opinion, with the animation rework that is incoming, Hysteria could keep its own set of claws but it needs to have a formula that is working on warframe mods only and why not some scaling value in it as the OP suggested. Maybe something based on ennemy max hp.

[WrothBog]

I'm not sure melee 2.0 will actually modify weapon stats. And it has clearly been stated by DE, melee 2.0 won't affect Hysteria.

and in the latest video from the devs they have stated they're adding more features because anticipation exceeded their plans. so i think we can ignore their previous statements and just wait and see

[Cyrionn]

Well, except if they add good crit stats on every weapon or raise a lot the base damage of all non-crits weapons things won't change. I highly doubt they will review the weapons balance to give more opportunities to Valkyr, in my opinion she is far from being considered in the process.

 

Well, I admit it's only trying to foresee what's coming, but I don't want to be deceived again and in my opinion melee 2.0 won't make any change there.

My beloved Valkyr will keep her place on its shelf until some better can come.

[Terrornaut]

Don't get me wrong. I'm actively using her on high level content (well, I'm not using paralysis, only sometimes ripline).  She isn't broken or anything like that.  She just has a mess of an ultimate that could be made so much better use of.  Melee 2.0 could make things interesting for her and warcry. Hopefully it doesn't slow her down.

They're just set on keeping her with the claws, I guess that's why they state hysteria won't be changing with melee 2.0.

I hope they rebalance melee weapons for the sake of melee, not for Valk (of course it'd be nice).  Why there are so few crit weapons, and why none of them are daggers is always questionable.  We'll see how it goes. DE is a young company that has a lot of awesome concepts - they're just finding their way when it comes to execution and design theory.

[Azamagon]

Hysteria could've been handled MUCH simpler:

 

* It still adds Claws, but they are not the only option. Use the Claws with Mouse1-button

* You can ALSO use your own melee weapon during Hysteria! Use it with the E-button

 

Claws have a set amount of damage and could have good multitargetting capabilities and whatnot - This allows the abilitiy to have good basedamage (when your own melee weapon might be lackluster).

Also having the option to use your own melee weapon allows it to scale really well (due to the damageboost to melee Hysteria brings, etc)

 

There, no need for overly complex formulas or anything!

[Monolake]

Players wanted scaling with melee weapon - they got it... be careful what you ask for!

[Vortok]

Step in the right direction?  Sure.  Done well.... iffy.  Since it only take some attributes (and mods) but not others, the attributes that it ignores leads to some weapons that are weak in that area to be a strong pick and other weapons that are strong an area that Hysteria doesn't pull from to be weak picks.

 

It already had it's own base damage, crit rate and crit multiplier.  Seems we add a relatively small amount to the base damage now.  Unsure if it copies the crit stats or uses them together with the old stats.  I'd consider just applying all the melee mods from your weapon (elements, etc.) and calling it a day, as then it doesn't depend on the actual weapon stats (just potato/polarity, but that's already the case to an extent).

 

 

Previously Hysteria was pretty lackluster if you didn't have a high level Blind Rage, which is very binary - either it's useful or it sucks.  Now it can at least be used for healing yourself without the best of the best gear, which is a good step.  Also means you can improve it a bit more incrementally instead of the all or nothing style it had when it was dependent upon just power damage.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Vortok

[WrothBog]

Don't get me wrong. I'm actively using her on high level content (well, I'm not using paralysis, only sometimes ripline).  She isn't broken or anything like that.  She just has a mess of an ultimate that could be made so much better use of.  Melee 2.0 could make things interesting for her and warcry. Hopefully it doesn't slow her down.

They're just set on keeping her with the claws, I guess that's why they state hysteria won't be changing with melee 2.0.

I hope they rebalance melee weapons for the sake of melee, not for Valk (of course it'd be nice).  Why there are so few crit weapons, and why none of them are daggers is always questionable.  We'll see how it goes. DE is a young company that has a lot of awesome concepts - they're just finding their way when it comes to execution and design theory.

if melee 2.0 is adding stances and by extension combo moves on the mouse buttons then i cant see hysteria not seeing some changes. even if they are temporary while they rework her skill post 2.0.

 

i mean it would be trivial to make the hysteria "stance" use the kogake animations with hysteria weapon stats while a more finalised version is worked upon. using the actual melee weapon stats for the claws would never have worked and i'm astonished they took that halfway option.

 

for those of you wishing for your own melee weapon while invincible..ish, use the cheese build. fury into quick thinking with equilibrium and flow.

 

for those of you who believe being nearly indestructible all the time is cheap, but being complete indestructible most of the time isn't, then use fleeting expertise and flow. the reduced duration isn't going to really impact you. the 40 energy to use hysteria will.

 

if you want something in the middle like i do. which is buff armour and apply hp regen on hit with a special set of attacks and knockdown immunity...wait and see