Omg Soma Is Op! What The Hell O.o

[blackhorns101291]

-Soma Prime-

This and Grataka Wraith 

[NikolaiLev]

You have successfully brought evidence of how little you understand of things that "matter". Statistics and math are only as good as the person applying and comprehending it.

 

Let's see your reasoning for why DPS isn't the only thing that matters.  And if you're going to cite Status effects; those matter because they increase your DPS.

 

Ammo efficiency is important, sure.  But there is a weapon that has both excellent ammo efficiency and DPS; the latron prime.  And ammo efficiency can be made moot by Rifle Scavenger or Ammo Mutator.

[Khunvyel]

You do realize that you would already have answered your own question if you read through the posts I did in this topic? I have already provided multiple reasons why DPS does not matter. But here, I am a nice guy, I quote you the most important part of those out;

 

DPS is only relevant and close to applicable scenarios where you have one big target with lots of health you can constantly shoot at, without interruption, without missing a shot and without other things that cause you to pause firing.

 

I am even more of a nice guy today and elaborate more on the matter, but not to the extent I'd normally do, because if you would read around (not only in this topic) there is plenty of evidence and reason why paper DPS doesn't matter.

 

Proper DPS calculation includes reload times. But it is also important to say that often enough you find yourself in a situation where you cannot safely reload, especially when the weapon is prone to have a long reload timer, and need to dispatch the enemies right off the bat, so you switch to your secondary weapon and also apply melee elements. This heavily dilutes any static DPS table.

 

Damage per second is a very inconvenient method to math, especially when you have a multitude of damage types and resistances. You'd rather want to have damage per shot and total damage per clip, and that per faction. A single-target weapon with 50.000 dps which only can fire once every second is going to help you absolutely nothing in a scenario with multiple enemies, where overkill is completely wasted. A weapon doing 20.000 dps with a higher firing rate is likely going to serve you a lot better in such scenarios.

 

But the higher rate of fire you have, the less bang you get for your buck, and ammo becomes an issue. Shots are more prone to miss due to recoil and the funny fact that you do not even see your target due to the damage number floaters. Miss chance is a double-edged blade in this case. The less damage you do per bullet, the less of a problem a wasted shot is, and it well hurts if you shoot with a semi auto rifle like the Latron and miss than missing 1 bullet of a Gorgon or Soma. However, ammo efficiency on the Latron is far superior. But in the end, missing shots further dilute DPS tables.

 

By the way, your ammo mutation argument is moot as well, because this would mean sacrificing a slot that would be better used otherwise. Let us take those two guns again with identical DPS but one having a higher RoF and lower bullet damage. The one with the lower RoF is less prone to run out of ammo IF handled properly because those guns usually have a higher recoil including the other stuff that comes along with that.

 

Then there is playstyle and preference. Different people handle different guns better. Some can use a Sicarus and do triple headshots on the same target over a long distance. Others can't. Some have an abysmal aim to begin with and they are better suited with the "spray and pray" weapons than placing shots with surgical precision.

 

To close this post, there is always the "What do you play in Warframe" question. Not everyone wants to farm endless defense to whatever level and not everyone wants to run 2+ hours of survival. This automatically shifts the point of view on certain weapons. There is always the thing on which weapon gets what job done. Which is why I disliked the Boltor even before Soma hit the market. I want my damage to be delivered now, and not get lost half the way due to a target that suddenly changes path and throws the trajectory analysis into the can.

[ObviousLee]

Uh?  It's the second best primary for DPS (which is only thing that matters), only second to the Latron Prime.  It's definitely in the top 5.

 

 

Again, being forced to choose means there is less choice.  And the progression up mastery is one thing.  At the end of the progression, there's a pathetically small amount of weapons to choose from.  For primaries, it's latron prime, soma, and synapse.  Anything else is just too low to consider.  That's not choice.

 

I don't want a tier system because the end tier will have so few weapons that the previous tiers are just pointless.  You're trying out new weapons for mastery, not because they're interesting, and you're going to settle on a Soma at the end anyway.  That's not choice.  That's not fun.

phage can pump out 22k dps. just saying.

[Workaround]

Soma's no where near Boltor Prime for DPS. Check out DPSframe. You can get Boltor Prime to 23k DPS. Soma caps out around 16.5k. 

[ObviousLee]

Soma's no where near Boltor Prime for DPS. Check out DPSframe. You can get Boltor Prime to 23k DPS. Soma caps out around 16.5k. 

DPSframe is unreliable. check out warframe-builder.com or even gottfausts dps calculator.

[Workaround]

DPSframe is unreliable. check out warframe-builder.com or even gottfausts dps calculator.

 

On warframe-builder I still can't get soma past 17k sustained. Boltor Prime caps out at 20k sustained there. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by Workaround

[ObviousLee]

On warframe-builder I still can't get soma past 17k sustained. Boltor Prime caps out at 20k sustained there. 

really? then the phage truly is a monster that overshadow's even the soma with over 22k dps.

 

um, give gottfausts dps calculator a shot, i use it also but although giving accurate numbers, the readouts do not take resistences into account, and i am not entirely sure it's been updated for not only the new damage system, but also the new weapons and elemental resistances and whatnot.

[Monolake]

DPSframe is unreliable. check out warframe-builder.com or even gottfausts dps calculator.

 

...

 

You have to know how the weapon behaves, but for evaluation of its power proper dps calculator is invaluable.

dpsframe.com calcs all the resistances, damage types, reload etc, its pretty much what you see is what you get in the game, the only problem is that some firerate for semi-auto is impossible to achieve unless you use macro and have perfect framerate. He had some obvious mistakes before about new weapons like Phage and Stug, but they all got corrected and he actually does testing to check if game-displayed numbers are correct.

It show per-shot and ammo economy too.

 

warframe-builder.com is good for nothing, it doesn't account for any resistances or dmg types, gottfausts dps calculator is weird, some numbers are wrong and don't correlate even closely with what you get in the game (Synapse is about as bad as Braton according to his TTK calculations, nuff said)

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

I believe warframe builder accounts for resistances if you hit the "report" button, and is probably (lol) accurate for the Corpus and Infested. The Grineer stuff is 100% off, though. It definitely has the easiest interface to use imo.

 

Gottfraust's calculator is odd and after going through the code, I probably wouldn't rely on it. While it is the only one that attempts to calculate for procs, it uses some weird logic for it, and like warframe builder, fails to account for Grineer armor properly.

 

dpsframe I'm pretty willing to bet implements Grineer armor mitigation properly, but of course doesn't offer a TTK. I don't really know how it goes about choosing a dps stat for the three factions, either. I haven't really taken that heavy a look at dpsframe, though.

 

Personally, the only one that I actually use at all is warframe builder, and that's just if I want to get a cut and dry raw damage per shot calculation. To be honest though, I typically just do most of my calculations using the good ol' calc.exe, though I'm making my own calculator because I am getting kind of tired of that lol, and I'm interested in an accurate TTK sim.

Edited March 18, 2014 by omgwtflolbbl

[Axterix13]

Let's see your reasoning for why DPS isn't the only thing that matters.  And if you're going to cite Status effects; those matter because they increase your DPS.

 

Ammo efficiency is important, sure.  But there is a weapon that has both excellent ammo efficiency and DPS; the latron prime.  And ammo efficiency can be made moot by Rifle Scavenger or Ammo Mutator.

Simple enough.  Made up example: a weapon that does 1 billion damage per shot... and fires once per minute.  That's a DPS of 16.6 million.  Would you use that as your only weapon in your typical Warframe mission?

 

Less extreme examples, of the type you're more likely to run to in game:

1.  Ease of use.  Why we typically use Soma/Synapse/Boltor Prime/whatever over the Penta in most cases.

2.  Ammo efficiency, which you mentioned, and even gave examples about how you can cut DPS to increase it.  Rifle Scavenger means no Energy Siphon or Rifle Amp.  Ammo Mutators take the slot of a damage boosting mod.

3.  Once you kill a mob fast enough, extra damage ceases to matter.  If I'm doing an alert on Mercury, for example, it doesn't really matter if my weapon has 1k DPS or 10k.  One shot will kill the mobs.

4.  The right effect can make it easier to apply damage.  A slow status effect on a heavy, for example, makes it easier to shoot it in the head, since you don't have to worry as much about what it is doing.  So having an effect that doesn't do damage (theoretical lower DPS) can let you use what you have more effectively.

5.  Damage when it matters.  50 low threat, easy-to-kill mobs that resist a damage type for every one of some hard to kill mob that is vulnerable to it.  You might willingly lower your overall DPS, because the easy mobs don't really matter.  This also applies to team-play.  If one player has the means to easily kill mob type X, you might choose to specialize in killing mob Y.  Lower DPS for you, but an easier mission for the team.

 

Beyond that, there's also a big difference between practical DPS and theoretical DPS.  People tend to focus too much on the stand and shoot numbers, which can vary quite a bit from things in game.  Things that can factor in:

1.  Front-loaded damage.  Shoot the mob and it is dead with one bullet.  If they need more bullets to do the job, they don't get the chance to land those bullets, because your first shot killed the mob.

2.  Tracking time.  When mobs are spread out, you spend more time shifting your aim between targets.  A slower RoF doesn't matter as much when that time is spent moving your aim to the next target instead.

3.  Often reloading can be done in non-combat situations, lowering its impact.

4.  Most of the DPS indicators ignore accuracy (for obvious reasons).  It does factor in to practical DPS though.

5.  Overkill.  Tied to the front-loaded damage thing.  The faster, higher DPS weapon winds up with a damage total closer to the actual mobs' hp total it shot at, while a front-loaded one gets credit for a lot of damage that doesn't matter.  So a front-loaded weapon can wind up looking more impressive than it actually is.  Basically the issue the one billion damage made up weapon has ;)

 

Mostly what it comes down to is that, while DPS numbers are handy, you can't blindly follow them.  You need to think a little.  People tend not to do that though.  They just blindly quote the theoretical numbers and ignore the practical implications that will actually impact their DPS (and more importantly, their performance and how efficiently they use their time) in game.

 

Edit: Forgot one big one.

- Enjoyment.  This is a game.  We play for fun.  I love my Seer.  It is my favorite pistol, hence why it is my most forma'd item.  It might not be the optimal weapon.  Definitely isn't when I want to drop a high hp boss, and I tend not to use it for those type of missions for that reason.  But it wrecks face (literally; Boom! Headshot!) in most of the content.  As long as you aren't lessening your team's enjoyment, hampering them, I'd say enjoyment can be more important than a bit more DPS. So yeah, maybe I could lead the team's damage by an even larger margin if I used my Soma or Boltor Prime... but they don't make me feel like Dirty freakin' Harry.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Axterix13

[ObviousLee]

I believe warframe builder accounts for resistances if you hit the "report" button, and is probably (lol) accurate for the Corpus and Infested. The Grineer stuff is 100% off, though. It definitely has the easiest interface to use imo.

 

Gottfraust's calculator is odd and after going through the code, I probably wouldn't rely on it. While it is the only one that attempts to calculate for procs, it uses some weird logic for it, and like warframe builder, fails to account for Grineer armor properly.

 

dpsframe I'm pretty willing to bet implements Grineer armor mitigation properly, but of course doesn't offer a TTK. I don't really know how it goes about choosing a dps stat for the three factions, either. I haven't really taken that heavy a look at dpsframe, though.

 

Personally, the only one that I actually use at all is warframe builder, and that's just if I want to get a cut and dry raw damage per shot calculation. To be honest though, I typically just do most of my calculations using the good ol' calc.exe, though I'm making my own calculator because I am getting kind of tired of that lol, and I'm interested in an accurate TTK sim.

if/when you get that calculator up and running please shoot me a pm, as i'd love to see what you come up with. (dps calculators give me the warm and fuzzies)

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

It's going to be a very ugly calculator. I don't care about making it look nice, I just want it to give me the data I want. Right now I'm looking at having it be capable of calculating DPS and TTK on an enemy and enemy level of your specification (so it'll have an enemy database as well as weapon), as well as comparisons between multiple weapons based on all that stuff (so comparing DPS and TTK while taking into account resistances/armor, basically). Maybe I'll throw some graphs at it, too, who knows.

 

I would like to have it capable of accounting for status procs, but I'm still hesitant on accepting anything anyone has said on how status proc distribution works. The damage that you do with each status proc is pretty easy, and averaging out their overall effect on your DPS or TTK would be relatively easy too, but it all relies on understanding how status proc distribution works to begin with. So I'll probably split it up into a version that ignores status procs and another one that does with whatever method I feel like (probably 50/50 split between IPS and elemental, then weighted based on spread within IPS and elemental respectively).

[LazyKnight]

I would like to have it capable of accounting for status procs, but I'm still hesitant on accepting anything anyone has said on how status proc distribution works.

It is fairly easy to test someone's theory if you use a Vauban or Trinity. Orokin derelict defense has infested as test subjects if you just want easy to test proc occurrences by suspending them in ballista (that's all I did). Corpus are unusable because of that double proc visual bug, and Grineer are highly annoying to test with.

Edited March 18, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Khunvyel]

*snip*

 

Hopefully NikolaiLev is going to read yours and my previous posting in between all this talk of even more theoretical DPS and calculators.