Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Demiax]

It would, I just don't see the point really. If you ever need to charge it up rapidly, jump on Peacemaker for 2-3 seconds.

 

Makes Winds of Purity way more ammo-efficient.

Still no Rhino update in your thread... ;-;

[Archwizard]

Still no Rhino update in your thread... ;-;

 

There has been - it was just reductive. The devs changed some things; Rhino's no worse off, Charge got the buff we asked for. 

Iron Skin's still in the same state, his speed's still in the same state, I still say Roar should taunt for synergy. Doesn't need much more added to his section.

[Elydir]

So if staminas going away, what do you think should happen for green Chroma?

[Archwizard]

So if staminas going away, what do you think should happen for green Chroma?

 

Ideally, I'd like the Toxin Ward to gain some pseudo-stealthy aspects, to be more fitting of a predatory dragon who stalks from the shadows of a cavern, the depths of the sea, or out of the night sky. Not full-on Invisibility or hushed weapons or anything, but perhaps Mirage's Shadow Eclipse effect: enemies are just less likely to notice you and affected allies while it's active, like an active camouflage or perma-crouch. They're alerted to your presence at a lower range, which gives you opportunity to get close enough (depending on range modding) to poison them, draining them slowly, before moving in for the kill.

 

Realistically, I think it'll just affect whatever they do to compensate for "infinite blocking", but it'll be hard to say depending on what they do for the green bar.

[taiiat]

poisoning things from the shadows, even when you're not in the shadows, creating your own shadows.

i like it. sneak around, Weaken Enemies, then wipe them all out.

[Elydir]

Ideally, I'd like the Toxin Ward to gain some pseudo-stealthy aspects, to be more fitting of a predatory dragon who stalks from the shadows of a cavern, the depths of the sea, or out of the night sky. Not full-on Invisibility or hushed weapons or anything, but perhaps Mirage's Shadow Eclipse effect: enemies are just less likely to notice you and affected allies while it's active, like an active camouflage or perma-crouch. They're alerted to your presence at a lower range, which gives you opportunity to get close enough (depending on range modding) to poison them, draining them slowly, before moving in for the kill.

 

Realistically, I think it'll just affect whatever they do to compensate for "infinite blocking", but it'll be hard to say depending on what they do for the green bar.

 

But wouldnt a stealth technique work against Chroma? Nobody hitting Vex Ward?

 

And wouldnt enemies be alerted by the poison procs?

[Azamagon]

But wouldnt a stealth technique work against Chroma? Nobody hitting Vex Ward?

 

And wouldnt enemies be alerted by the poison procs?

If the Effigy getting hit could fuel the Vex Ward for Chroma (with some limits of course), stealth would be a fine addition :)

EDIT: After all, the Effigy is a part of Chroma, so it could make sense to work with that synergy.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

And wouldnt enemies be alerted by the poison procs?

make them not be. :)

quietly sapping them from the Shadows.

[radthezero]

I do think free teleportation would work well with Ash now that parkour 2.0 is coming. Like, being able to teleport to a targeted area mid-air, retaining momentum, for example. I do know it sounds way too much like Nova's, but the whole problem with Ash's Teleport is that it's way too stagnant. Bladestorm working on bosses WOULD be very good, but isn't it a little complicated to reduce the damage of something that deals Finisher damage?

[Archwizard]

But wouldnt a stealth technique work against Chroma? Nobody hitting Vex Ward?

 

And wouldnt enemies be alerted by the poison procs?

 

Maybe, but Vex Ward doesn't build up when you're blocking or dodging hits either. 

If you really think about it, Toxin Ward comes off more like... the evasion and ability damage specialization anyway. Given Chroma's extreme build versatility, I think that was rather bound to happen.

 

Given that the ability is only 5% damage, it'd take a while for enemies to be chiseled down any significant amount... 22.5% health over 8 seconds is a goodly long while to do nothing but stealth around targets (especially since Toxin Ward doesn't stack Toxin procs), and that's before you consider Armor, Robotic and Toxic Ancient modifiers. I don't think it'd be overpowered to have the target not immediately notice they've been poisoned - and even if they are alerted, it's not like they necessarily have to find Chroma anyway...

 

If the Effigy getting hit could fuel the Vex Ward for Chroma (with some limits of course), stealth would be a fine addition :)

EDIT: After all, the Effigy is a part of Chroma, so it could make sense to work with that synergy.

 

Shouldn't Elemental Ward affect the Effigy before Vex Armor does? That'd really only serve to buff accumulation on the elements that already want to tank their damage.

[taiiat]

(still rooting for Toxin Chroma sapping from the shadows, poisoned from the inside out before those Grineer Dogs even know what's happening) :)

but isn't it a little complicated to reduce the damage of something that deals Finisher damage?

a Damage Type is a Damage Type. if you want to reduce the Damage of it, you subtract, divide, multiply, or add just like any other number.

if you're referring to Armor Damage Reduction, most bosses are either very durable even without their Armor, or are simply designed to not have any need for Armor at all.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

As some of you may have seen, I started a Mag change thread, thinking that shortly after the Greedy Pull nerf when there's still discussion surrounding Mag would be the best time to propose changes. However, most of the discussion taking place was instead over Mag's current worth and the merits of the Greedy Pull nerf. So, I come here looking for feedback on my suggested changes.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/486523-if-mag-is-useless-now-then-we-buff-mag/

 

I've recently been seeing a lot of cries of "Mag is worthless!" since Greedy Pull was changed so that it doesn't reward you for not playing the game anymore. This is a fantastic change that needed to happen, and I feel that the vast majority of these complaints are massive overreactions. Yeah, Trinity's been totally worthless since they nerfed Blessing, too.

 

However, I've been having some ideas for Mag changes for awhile now, and now that Greedy Pull has been nerfed FIXED, I'm going to play the devil's advocate and share them. Assuming that Mag truly is useless, we don't un-nerf a stupid augment that was breaking the game. We buff Mag!

 

The main problem I see with Mag is the very thing she's built around: magnetic damage. Mag's exclusive focus in magnetic damage severely hurts her versatility, restricting her to being a Corpus slayer and a Corpus slayer only. To solve this, there needs to be fundamental changes to the magnetic element.

 

Magnetic element changes:

1. Remove -50% damage penalty against alloy armor

2. Add +25% damage bonus against ferrite armor

3. Add -25% damage penalty against both Corpus and Grineer flesh (Infested stays as is)

4. In addition to its current effects, the magnetic proc now prevents enemies from using their abilities (Grineer heavies' ground slam, Corpus Techs' deployable osprey, Ancient/Corrupted Healers' healing and damage resistance, all eximus abilities, etc.) for the 4-second duration of the proc (does not work on bosses, mini-bosses, Nullifiers, or Tenno.)

 

These changes are designed to make the magnetic damage type have a place in endgame. The changed damage bonuses and resistances make it more effective at fighting high level armored enemies, and the new proc effect is designed to mimic the energy removal that the magnetic proc has on Tenno. The new proc effect is definitely the biggest and seemingly weirdest change here, but it has both logical and gameplay reasons behind it. The magnetic proc drains Tenno of all their energy, why shouldn't it have a similar effect on enemies? It would also both give Mag an endgame niche entirely to herself, and make magnetic status weapons endgame viable. With that out of the way, let's move on to Mag's first ability, Pull.

 

Pull changes:

1. Pull has a 25% magnetic proc chance

 

Pull augment: Gun Pull

1. Pull disarms enemies instead of pulling them

2. Disarmed enemies are pulled as normal

3. Using Pull on a non-disarmed enemy removes the 25% magnetic proc chance

4. Enemies disarmed by Loki's Radial Disarm are pulled as normal with the 25% magnetic proc chance

 

This single change to Pull allows Mag to make use of the additional magnetic proc effect, giving her a very useful niche unique to only her: ability denial. I originally thought the proc chance should be 100%, but constantly spamming Pull with a 100% chance to block enemy abilities would prevent any enemy from ever using any ability ever, so 25% seems more balanced. This may need to be lowered even further, depending on how strong 25% is.

 

The augment gives Mag even more endgame viability, allowing her to fill another role in a team. For the sake of balance, enemies would no longer be pulled or magnetic proc'ed on the first cast, and to pull them as normal, a second cast is required. This also creates synergy with Loki, since he can disarm enemies as well, allowing for Mag to pull enemies as normal on the first cast.

 

Oh, and if you say that it would make Mag take Loki's role, just think about Nyx's troubled relationship with Irradiating Disarm. Now, let’s move on to Shield Polarize.

 

Shield Polarize changes:

1. Shield Polarize now removes armor as well, but the removal percentage is half of what it is against shields, and it does not cause armor to explode

2. Every enemy hit by Shield Polarize, shielded or not, has a 25% chance to be hit with a magnetic proc

3. The explosion effect cannot cause magnetic procs, to avoid double-proccing a single enemy

 

Shield Polarize is a fantastic ability, but only when used against shielded enemies. These changes would give Mag the ever important ability of armor removal and make Shield Polarize actually useful against non-shielded enemies, but do so in a way that doesn’t sacrifice its primarily anti-shield focus. Just like with Pull, the magnetic proc chance may need to be lowered for balance reasons. There’s really not that much else to say. Moving on.

 

Bullet Attractor changes:

1. All enemies inside Bullet Attractor’s bubble take the full increased damage from every shot that hits the bubble

2. All enemies inside the bubble cannot use their abilities, identical to the new magnetic proc effect, except it lasts until the enemy leaves the bubble or the bubble goes away

3. All enemies inside the bubble are marked on the minimap until they leave the bubble or the bubble goes away

4. When the bubble explodes, the explosion damage has a 100% magnetic proc chance

 

Bullet Attractor has become known as an incredibly weak ability because its purpose is to focus damage on a single target, which is the same reason sniper rifles are so terrible right now. These changes allow it to focus damage to a group of targets, with utility purposes as well. It allows for more reliable ability denial than Pull and Shield Polarize, but this is balanced by decreased spammability.

 

Crush changes:

1. Damage is 25% impact, 25% puncture, 25% slash, and 25% magnetic

2. Damage counts as finisher damage

3. The final damage tick has a 100% slash proc chance

4. Each damage tick has a 10% magnetic proc chance

5. Now only targets enemies in a cone in front of Mag, cone angle increased by power range

 

Back when Mag was first released, Crush dealt damage. Now, not so much. These changes are all about making Crush actually deal damage again. I want to feel like I’m actually crushing my enemies’ bones, dam it. If your bones were to be crushed, it would make sense if you would bleed afterwards, and external armor wouldn’t protect you from internal damage. The reasoning behind the cone targeting mechanic is to prevent players from just standing on energy restores all day and letting the game play itself for them; they actually have to look around to hit all the enemies.

 

I would greatly appreciate feedback on these suggestions, as well as your thoughts on the Greedy Pull debacle. Feedback on my suggested changes would be really nice, since I put a lot of work into puzzling out Mag's problems and thinking of ways to solve them.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Just a few tidbits as I'm reading over it...

 

- The Magnetic damage reallocation seems fair (and a similar suggestion in the "General" section of the OP). 

--> Not sure about the disruption - more on that in a bit...

 

- Pull's "+Magnetic proc chance": Meh. Ironically, with Shield Polarize, she's actually stronger without applying any Magnetic procs to enemies (that's not a bad thing - she just supplies a stronger version of the proc, like Chilling Globe is to Cold procs). Particularly with Pull, if the idea is to gather opponents for radial nukes, then the expectation should be that it's cast first... working against Polarize.

--> While it does makes sense for "disruption" to have a similar effect on enemies as it has on players (eg enemies can't use abilities), it's for the above reason I think that effect should be kept out of Mag's kit and off of the Magnetic proc at-large, since it would be stronger to chain-disrupt foes than just to use her abilities for their core effects.

--> ... on the other hand, disorienting enemies could work as an alternative.

 

- Gun Pull sounds interesting, but it shouldn't be "instead of". Perhaps just make affected enemies temporarily disarmed in addition to the current effects, so they'll be more disoriented after they recover. Emphasize the "counter-Ranged" element of it.

 

- Simpler change for Shield Polarize: Just let it explode off of restored shields as well (a la Blessing). Naming it "Shield Polarize" and having it affect armor seems mildly misleading, given the game's efforts to make the two very distinct. Players seem to forget that without Corpus Polarize is still a support tool, and this might be a fair reminder.

--> Fairly certain Magnetic procs don't stack, so "double proccing" is no concern.

 

- Bullet Attractor's big issue is that it's too costly for what it does, so nobody deploys it in combat. While you do make it more of an area CC, it'll still go away the moment your "totem" dies (and the whole point of the ability is to focus fire on that target). The most erroneous aspect of Attractor is that the explosion at the end caps at 300 damage, scaling with nothing - not Power Strength, not the damage you dealt with the field, weakening with range - making it weaker than Pull as an offensive tool (and Pull cheaper as a defensive tool); it's really only there to justify the cost in a firefight. You gave the ability a lot of perks, but how often would you cast it still knowing it will probably only last 3 seconds?

 

- Crush begins with a contradiction: Finishing is a damage type of its own, and it's stronger than all four of the damage types you listed above it. Oddly, I'm fairly certain the changes you just made make it a faster version of Bladestorm, with lower damage per-target and more CC.

--> Reducing Crush to a cone seems like both an unnecessary nerf and a repetitive gimmick for Mag, since Pull is already a conic attack.

[Elydir]

Pull augment: Gun Pull

 

It kinda reminds me of how Pull used to rip the riot shields off of Grineer guys. Definitely would of been a better augment than Greedy.

[Archwizard]

Something that hit me recently about the Excalibur rework that I didn't even cover here, but possibly changes the whole dynamic of the game:

 

Stat Budgets.

 

Most of the early Warframes were generated to follow a stat budget, using Excalibur as a cookie cutter because he's the poster-child. Mag, for instance, used Excalibur's stats as a base, but traded some health for additional shielding. Banshee traded Excalibur's armor for more energy and a minor speed increase. It's never been an exact science (armor and speed have always been lopsided, and we've always ignored stamina so that'll be no loss in U17), but it was especially notable within the caster frames, like Nekros (who had exactly the same stats and polarities as Excalibur - including the same blank aura slot - only trading 10% shields for 10% speed).

 

And now Excalibur just raised the budget, with a straight armor buff. The cookie cutter has evolved.

 

Now, I know there have always been exceptions (like Ash, the tanks, newer frames like Chroma and the reworked Ember), so we can chalk that up to the budget finally catching up to them. But now that means that a number of casters are retroactively below that budget, trading literal hundreds of armor (and more!) for minor boosts elsewhere...

Edited July 11, 2015 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

How many frmaes is that though? Mag, Banshee, Nekros, maybe Volt and Trin?

[Archwizard]

How many frmaes is that though? Mag, Banshee, Nekros, maybe Volt and Trin?

 

Definitely, maybe more. It's hard to tell for most of the others what the value of a 50% boost in energy is worth, and none of the stats really have a 1:1 ratio aside from maybe health and shields; the diminishing returns on armor means trading a hundred off the top could be worth .05 sprint speed, depending on the frame.

[Elydir]

Definitely, maybe more. It's hard to tell for most of the others what the value of a 50% boost in energy is worth, and none of the stats really have a 1:1 ratio aside from maybe health and shields; the diminishing returns on armor means trading a hundred off the top could be worth .05 sprint speed, depending on the frame.

 

I'd say energy is 1:1 with health and shield, since Quick Thnking makes it a 2nd health pool.

[Archwizard]

I'd say energy is 1:1 with health and shield, since Quick Thnking makes it a 2nd health pool.

 

Not quite, since energy is naturally more versatile - used in abilities and channeled melee attacks.

 

Besides, energy only has two modes so far: 100 base or 150 base for casters, with excess only for Primes.

[Axeroix]

Overload is Arguably the most Archaic bad Ultimates in the game heres my suggestion

 

Stormwave - Volt Does damage = to all the ticks of Overload, to enemies in a large conal area in front of him Knocking them back (like that seen in the original Jurrassic park where the kid is on the electric fence) if near electrical devices, or, are current stunned by shock, enemies will take additional damage.

animations would be semi mobile, slowing down a little to cast it however they would be fully mobile if speed is active.

[madhatter10]

possible Miasma or Contagion replacement:

Pest Missile: Saryn shoots a projectile at a target. The projectile quickly jumps between all enemies in range of the first target for x times (kinda like bladestorm), having a high chance for corrosive procs and staggering targets it hits. It can affect the same target multiple times. If no other enemies are in range of the target, it will suffer from a dot which has the same properties.

 

Kinda inspired by varus' chain of corruption

[Archwizard]

Overload is Arguably the most Archaic bad Ultimates in the game heres my suggestion

 

Stormwave - Volt Does damage = to all the ticks of Overload, to enemies in a large conal area in front of him Knocking them back (like that seen in the original Jurrassic park where the kid is on the electric fence) if near electrical devices, or, are current stunned by shock, enemies will take additional damage.

animations would be semi mobile, slowing down a little to cast it however they would be fully mobile if speed is active.

 

Overload nerfed to a cone, with a knockback. Eh.

 

possible Miasma or Contagion replacement:

Pest Missile: Saryn shoots a projectile at a target. The projectile quickly jumps between all enemies in range of the first target for x times (kinda like bladestorm), having a high chance for corrosive procs and staggering targets it hits. It can affect the same target multiple times. If no other enemies are in range of the target, it will suffer from a dot which has the same properties.

 

Kinda inspired by varus' chain of corruption

 

So an automatic Venom.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

Oddly, I dont think anyones asked you about the Frost rework yet. When Excaliburs rework was announced, you changed his section in the OP, but Frosts looks unchanged. Thoughts?

[Axeroix]

Overload nerfed to a cone, with a knockback. Eh.

1. damage is immediate

2. cones total inner angle comes to around 160 degrees

3. range would be greater than the current effect

4. usable while moving

Edited July 24, 2015 by Axeroix

[Archwizard]

1. damage is immediate

2. cones total inner angle comes to around 160 degrees

3. range would be greater than the current effect

4. usable while moving

 

1. Which is already a nerf, since you can't use status-chaining to CC enemies for a meaningful period (and lose the partial damage against enemies who charged in after the cast, ie Crush).

2. Does he really need another one-sided ability? Electric Shield only protects from one angle, his first and ultimate only attack from one angle?

3. The current effect is already pretty big (same distance as Sound Quake) - so the radius increase would be probably be negligible (-200 degrees = +5 yards?) to remain within a balanced distance.

4. Admittedly that is a plus, but the whole point of Shock is that it's what you can cast on the move if need be - all this change means is that if you have the energy (and between zero toggles and Volt Prime's capacity, restores/Siphon are definite options), you obsolete his first skill.

Besides, you can use Overload while airborne, just use Speed to get some momentum. Should be a Hek of a lot of fun in Parkour 2.0...

Edited July 24, 2015 by Archwizard