Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I... Agree.

Focus has cooldowns that go beyond the duration of some of the fastest missions, and granting them pure overpoweredness would not be, well... Overpowered. It was a disappointment when the damage dealing focus is not that damage dealing, and the durability focus is not that durable.

Due to the fact that Focus is not that powerful, the intelligent user will focus themself on the passive sides,any of which grant benefits between the "this should be the norm" (zenurik, if energy orbs were removed and pads had cooldowns) and "this is way too overpowered" (naramon's shadow step). Hence, I agree it makes sense for, say, zenutik not to be locked to a cone, Vazarin to grant temporarly invulnerability, and Naramon to actually be an enormously damaging ability.

I was thinking more:

• Unairu: Ability grants all Tenno nearby a protective barrier that negates incoming damage. Upgrades including reflecting damage taken while the barrier is active, healing from attacks that strike the barrier, increased chance to inflict stagger or status, and permanent stacking buffs to armor and status resistance for the party upon completing the cast.
• Zenurik: Ability grants all Tenno nearby a buff that causes their abilities to have zero cost for a duration. Upgrades include temporary bonus energy regeneration, the current CC effect, and permanent stacking increases to ability stats for the party upon completing the cast.
• Madurai: Ability causes any enemy to touch the beam to be instantly killed, a la Defense terminals in the Void. Upgrades include altering the shape of the beam, benefits from targets killed, explosive burst attacks on weapons, and permanent stacking increases to companion and weapon damage for the party upon completing the cast.
• Vazarin: Ability instantly revives all Tenno and allies across the map, regardless of distance, and continuously heals survivors. Upgrades include healing over time, ammo replenishment, and permanent stacking buffs to health and shield caps for the party upon completing the cast.
• Naramon: Ability effectively mind controls surrounding enemies into attacking each other while completely ignoring Tenno, even if they touch the player. Upgrades include exposing targets to finishers, allowing allied attacks to temporarily bypass resistances, and permanent stacking increases to critical stats for the party upon completing the cast.

Part of me feels like mobility should be involved in either Madurai (which could use it, even though it isn't based on pure damage) or Naramon (since it's from the same school, but Naramon has a pretty broad focus already) too...

Edited September 17, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Focus abilities.

they're garbage.

the passive facets of them require zero user input and some of them completely break the game.
the active facets of them are almost entirely useless.

 

this is absolutely not right.
passive effects that you do nothing to get, should be minor.
active effects are where the effective parts are.

and effects can't be permanent. they must have a duration.

 

on a different note, the cooldown on using the Focus...thing itself, is so long that it itself is basically irrelevant to the game. this is a fast paced game, having something you can use like once every 4 minutes - means it doesn't exist.

and as far as i'm concerned, justifying incredibly Overpowered passive or active effects - would make them basically useless.
so go with useful, in various ways. but not trying to break the game.
that means you can get away with powerful things if they're extremely limited in use, or simply unique effects (as ever, unique effects is the most practical option).

[Archwizard]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

on a different note, the cooldown on using the Focus...thing itself, is so long that it itself is basically irrelevant to the game. this is a fast paced game, having something you can use like once every 4 minutes - means it doesn't exist.

and as far as i'm concerned, justifying incredibly Overpowered passive or active effects - would make them basically useless.
so go with useful, in various ways. but not trying to break the game.
that means you can get away with powerful things if they're extremely limited in use, or simply unique effects (as ever, unique effects is the most practical option).

I absolutely agree that the active effects open an opportunity to make something limited in uptime but extremely powerful in effect, and that the passive effects should in no way be stronger than the active effects. You should cast the ability because you need it right now, because it in itself is a gamechanger, not just to tap it once for perma-stealth.

That said, the passive effects do open up one opportunity, especially if they can stack: You can scale within the mission. This is particularly noteworthy considering our end-level content includes sorties, wherein enemies simply have an unfair advantage over players due in no small part to their elevated scaling. The potential to say "My party takes a X% bump every 3 minutes" has incalculable potential.
If you cast Focus as an "oh S#&$" button, there's no guarantee that you'll hold out till the next cast. Having it stack up an effect to let you scale up and increase your odds of getting to the next phase, however...

Now as far as your issue with it being useless due to the timer...

I think one extreme solution we could take, is simply having it so you build up a number of "charges" over the course of a mission, but each successive charge of the ability takes longer and longer to be generated. So the first charge generates faster than now, the second is as long as now, and beyond that is progressively longer and longer.
The problem there being that it means everybody could cast the effect immediately at the start of the mission...

Alternately, the permanent passive effects could be automatic and amplify for every period the ability comes off cooldown.

The way I see it though, these should be the kinds of abilities you cast as a last resort, so it makes sense that you're unable to cast them in shorter missions because you don't need the help in short missions; if you're not being overwhelmed right now then there's nothing you can't take care of with your other abilities.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

50 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

That said, the passive effects do open up one opportunity, especially if they can stack: You can scale within the mission. This is particularly noteworthy considering our end-level content includes sorties, wherein enemies simply have an unfair advantage over players due in no small part to their elevated scaling. The potential to say "My party takes a X% bump every 3 minutes" has incalculable potential.
If you cast Focus as an "oh S#&$" button, there's no guarantee that you'll hold out till the next cast. Having it stack up an effect to let you scale up and increase your odds of getting to the next phase, however...

 

Now as far as your issue with it being useless due to the timer...

that will be great in some far off future date when Players aren't so Overpowered that these effects really don't matter because we can take a stroll through the daisies regardless of what Mission it is.

not specifically because it has a Timer, but because the Timer (which is both before initial use and repeated use ofcourse) is incredibly long. being that long, Players will just continue to rely on the Abilities they already have been to turn off the game for them.

[Archwizard]

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Players will just continue to rely on the Abilities they already have been to turn off the game for them.

Which would be exactly why we should discuss it here, considering our previous discussion on dealing with that type of behavior.

[taiiat]

11 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Which would be exactly why we should discuss it here, considering our previous discussions on dealing with that type of behavior.

sure. so, in a world where Ability use is balanced, and Ability effect is balanced - it's still going to be pretty common for one to choose to cast some form of CC Ability or something of the sort because a couple Energy Orbs is much faster to get than waiting for potentially a few minutes.

so if we also then assume Focus Actives and Passives won't be to out of sync and ridiculously all over the place for balance - the Timer for the primary Focus... thing, could get away fine with being a 30 second Timer.

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

sure. so, in a world where Ability use is balanced, and Ability effect is balanced - it's still going to be pretty common for one to choose to cast some form of CC Ability or something of the sort because a couple Energy Orbs is much faster to get than waiting for potentially a few minutes.

so if we also then assume Focus Actives and Passives won't be to out of sync and ridiculously all over the place for balance - the Timer for the primary Focus... thing, could get away fine with being a 30 second Timer.

Maybe? But if it had a 30 second timer, the effects of each would have to be cut down to be just slightly better than abilities. (Which, granting, is basically where they are right now, if you take away the passives.) Since the ability itself has no cost to initiate, the power level of it has to scale with the cooldown and vice versa.

Remember, you're not the only one on the team with Focus. If you had a 30 second timer and the effects were potent enough, you'd have to account for a squad's ability to tap it every 7.5 seconds... which is only slightly longer than the expected interval for ultimate-spam in a lootcave.

The short timer essentially makes it a free ability. No bells or whistles. Kinda disappointing for an end-level system.

The advantage of the lengthy timer is that you know the squad has to pace out uses, which gives the power level of it some leeway.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Archwizard

[Teloch]

20 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

snoop

 

Who disturbs my slumber?

I had some thoughts and ideas on focus mechanics but managed to make only one branch

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Teloch

[taiiat]

somehow you've managed to get compression artifacts... in a PNG.
wut

11 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Remember, you're not the only one on the team with Focus. If you had a 30 second timer and the effects were potent enough, you'd have to account for a squad's ability to tap it every 7.5 seconds... which is only slightly longer than the expected interval for ultimate-spam in a lootcave.

The advantage of the lengthy timer is that you know the squad has to pace out uses, which gives the power level of it some leeway.

and if you have to wait an eternity to use it, then the expectation is "this must be gamebreaking to compensate". which isn't really setting the game up for a situation that's unlikely to be all kinds of broken.

[--Q--uaint]

Focus, eh?

I have been thinking about that for a while, but I didn't wanna bring it up here since it's not a 'frame-specific thing.

I actually have a full rework idea...

Spoiler

First off, Focus abilities no longer use the Operator; This does limit the usefulness of Operator fashionframe, but I think it that will be remedied with walking around in The War Within.
Passives are active from the start of the mission, and you begin each mission with your Focus fully charged.
Ways no longer increase the cooldown on your #5 ability.
Effects are balanced roughly around the current cooldowns; I have no position on whether the cooldown reduction Ways should stay or be removed.
All castings of the 5th ability are granted upon reaching full charge. If I can cast my #5 3 times per charge, each cast will drain 1/3rd of my charge and my charge will begin regenerating. However, I may only cast 3 times before the meter completely fills again.
Indentation denotes dependencies.

Madurai:
    Crushing Phoenix:
        On pressing #5, your 'frame does an uber-Landslide. Targeting is effectively infinite range, and terrain can be targeted.
        When the punch lands, it creates a 25/30/35/40 meter AoE blast that deals 1/2/3/4k damage.

        Lethal Fury:
            Enemies within 2/3/4/5 meters of Crushing Phoenix's detonation die instantly.
            
            Stygian Rage:
                Enemies killed by Lethal Fury explode for 10/20/30/40% of their maximum HP in finisher damage, with the AoE being 10/20/30/40% of Crushing Phoenix's.
    
        Consuming Pyre:
            Enemies killed by Crushing Phoenix create 2/3/4/5 meter AoE that does 5/10/15/20% of their maximum HP in Heat damage every second for 7 seconds.
        
            Blinding Supremacy:
                Enemies killed by Crushing Phoenix produce a 15/20/25/30 meter blind that lasts 5/10/15/20 seconds
            
        Meteorite:
            Crushing Phoenix now launches the Operator to do the attack, so that the Warframe stays stationary.
            Crushing Phoenix's damage (which includes Stygian Rage) is reduced by 30/20/10/0%.
            
        // I'm not sure if this one should stay. I'm thinking get rid of it, but I'm leaving it here for initial feedback.
        Sustained Frenzy:
            Crushing Phoenix's AoE is reduced by 80/70/60/50%
            Crushing Phoenix now may be cast 3 times per full charge.
            
        Rising Blast (passive):
            Bullet Jumps gain 2/4/7/10x bonus Blast damage.
            Bullet Jump velocity enhanced by 50/75/100/125%
                
            Phoenix Flash (passive):
                Run speed is boosted by 50/75/100/125%
                Dive kicks deal 300/500/700/900 Heat damage.
            
        Blazing Fury (passive):
            All damage is enhanced by 0.5/1/1.5/2x your speed, with the units being the same as Warframe sprint speed.
        
        Searing Wrath (passive):
            This passive has 12 ranks, with the cost scaling every 3rd unlock for 3 cost scalings total. (This could also be done by just making it more expensive with bigger bonuses, but I like the incrementality of this.)
            All damage is enhanced by 10/15/20/-/30/35/40/-/50/55/60/-/70/80/90 percent.
            The default type for the bonus damage is slash, but a hold-cast is added to the 5th ability to cycle the damage type through each physical type.

Vazarin:
    Surging Rebuke:
        On pressing #5, your 'frame does an appropriate animation, creating an aura and a "bomb" (similar to Equinox's "Mend and Maim").
        The initial cast drains 1/10th of your charge, and each second the aura is active drains 2 seconds' worth of charge.
        The aura has a range of 30/35/40/45 meters.
        The "bomb" is charged by enemy attacks, but does not interfere with them. Every time an enemy attacks while inside the aura, the damage it would do on hit is added to the "bomb". Attacks with AoE grant 2.5x their damage.
        When the power is released...
        Allies within the aura are healed by 20/30/40/50% the contents of the "bomb".
        Enemies within the aura are staggered and damaged by 1/1.5/2/3x the contents of the "bomb".
        
        Strengthen Defenses:
            25/50/75/100% of Surging Rebuke's healing is also applied to shields.
            
            Purification:
                Surging Rebuke's aura range is reduced by 40/30/20/10%.
                Allies within the aura are immune to all status procs.
        
        Mending Shower:
            Allies within Surging Rebuke's aura regenerate 5/10/15/20 HP per second.
            
            New Moon:
                Surging Rebuke's release revives downed allies, restoring them to 10/20/30/40% of their maximum HP.

        Protection Ward:
            Grants a shell of protective energy while Surging Rebuke is active.
            The shell of protective energy remains after Surging Rebuke is released for 25/50/75/100% of Surging Rebuke's uptime.
            
            Commanding Words:
                While Protection Ward is active, enemies that pass within 5/6/7/8 meters of you are stunned for a short duration.

            Guardian Presence:
                Allies who come within 5/10/15/20 meters of you while Surging Rebuke is active receive the full benefits of Protection Ward.
        
        Crushing Retort:
            Enemies in the aura of Surging Rebuke receive 1/2/3/4x the damage they attempt to deal with all applicable status chances.
            AoE attack damage is multiplied by an additional 2.5x
            
            Retaliation (passive):
                25/50/75/100% of all damage you take is dealt to the one who dealt it, including all procs.
        
        Initiating Retort:
            Surging Rebuke's "bomb" is now fed by 10/20/30/40% of allied attack damage. AoE attacks' damage is multiplied by 2.5x
        

Naramon:
    Shadow Step:
        On pressing #5, your 'frame goes invisible for 15/17/20/24 seconds.
        While you are silent, Shadow Step grants a 2/3/4/5x damage boost.
        Shadow Step may be cast 2 times per charge.
        
        Cloaking Aura:
            On cast, Shadow Step grants its full invisibility duration to allies within 10/15/20/25 meters.
        
            Tactical Strike:
                Allies affected by Cloaking Aura get a 2/3/4/5x damage boost so long as they are silent.
        
        Fleeting Return:
            Reduces the duration of Shadow Step by 25%.
            Shadow Step may be cast 3/4/5/6 times per charge.
            
            Prolonged Subtlety:
                Shadow Step's duration counts down at 80/70/60/50% speed while wallclinging.
        
        Sundering Assault:
            While Shadow Step is active, melee attacks have a 25/50/75/100% chance to disarm.
            
            Reveal Weakness:
                All damage dealt during Shadow Step has a 25/50/75/100% chance to deal a proc.
                If the target has shields, the proc is Magnetic.
                If the target is armored, the proc is Corrosive.
                Otherwise, the proc is Viral.
        
        Strategic Execution:
            All kills made during Shadow Step grant 10/15/20/25% more affinity.
                
            Positional Superiority:
                All damage is considered a headshot if the enemy is facing at least 160/150/140/130 degrees away from you.
        
        Magnetic Aftershock (passive):
            Melee attacks inflict their targets with an aura for 5 seconds causing passing bullets to seek them out and do 2/3/4/5x damage.
            
            Deadly Intent (passive):
                All damage is multiplied by 2/3/4/5x when striking a weak point.
        

Zenurik:
    Void Pulse:
        Has no cast animation, but has a visual effect like current Vazarin's Mending Tides.
        Suspends and incapacitates enemies within 5/10/15/20 meters for 15 seconds.
        Allies within 5/10/15/20 meters are augmented by 400/600/800/1000 points of Void energy. This energy refills resources in the order health, energy, ammo, shields.
        Void Pulse may be cast 4 times per charge.
        
        Overwhelming Replenishment:
            Void Pulse restores 10/15/20/25% of the maximum ammo capacity on each gun before applying its normal effect.
            This restored ammo may bring the stored ammo to above maximum ammo capacity.
            
        Vampiric Rejuvination:
            Void Pulse grants a pool of 200/400/600/800 HP that is used to grant 100% lifesteal to all damage.
            Health is only removed from the pool when healing is done.
            
            Rift Shielding (passive):
                Shield maximum is increased by 200/300/400/500.
                Damage taken to shields grants energy with 5/10/15/20% efficiency.
                
        Energy Surge:
            Void Pulse leaves a field that grants 10/15/20/25% of Void Pulse's Void energy benefit per second for 5 seconds.
            
            Umbra Lance:
                Works as current Umbra Lance.
                
            Rift Sight:
                Void Pulse allows the player to see enemies through walls and displays them on the minimap for 5/10/15/20 seconds.
        
        Systemic Override:
            After casting Void Pulse, Abilities cost 80/60/40/20% of their usual cost for 7 seconds.
            
            Energy Spike (passive):
                Abilities cost 80/75/70/65% of their usual cost for 3/4/5/6 seconds after picking up an energy orb.
                Stacks multiplicatively with Systemic Override.
                
        Disciplined Approach (passive):
            The shared affinity range is increased by 10/12/14/17 meters.

Unairu:
    Impending Bastion:
        On casting #5, the 'frame does the animation for Iron Skin and becomes invulnerable and immune to CC/procs for 3/3/4/5 seconds.
        Allies within 5/10/15/20 meters fully healed with overshields maxed out.
        The 'frame gains 25/50/75/100 "Unairu bonus armor" that remains until the end of the mission.
        
        Stone Shape:
            Impending Bastion grants 20/40/60/80% damage reduction to affected allies for 1.25/1.5/1.75/2x your invulerability duration.
            
            Stone Armor:
                Stone Shape grants 2/3/4/5k Fossilized flesh (works as Iron Skin/Warding Halo) to affected allies.
        
        Mighty Blows (passive):
            Melee attacks ignore 1/1.3/1.6/2x Unairu bonus armor of foes' armor.
        
            Lasting Judgement:
                10/20/30/40% of the damage that hits Impending Bastion's invulnerability will be added to the Unairu bonus armor.
        
        Medusa Skin (passive):
            Enemies who strike you in melee have a 20/40/60/80% chance to be petrified for 10/15/20/25 seconds.
            
            Projected Resilience (passive):
                20/40/60/80% of the Unairu bonus armor applies to shields.
        
        Crushing Force (passive):
            All damage is enhanced by 0.5/1/1.5/2x (Unairu bonus armor/100)%
            
            Weight of Justice (passive):
                Crushing Force's damage bonus is multiplied by 2/3/4/5x for melee attacks.
        
        Scorched Earth:
            Impending Bastion generates a 15/20/25/30 meter fire wave that deals 400/600/800/1000 Heat damage with 100% status chance.
            
            Eroded Defenses:
                Scorched Earth procs Corrosive on enemies 2/3/4/5 times.

Justification:

Focus is now eminently usable and useful, but its passive benefits aren't so overwhelming as to require some sort of significant limiter.

Madurai is now a dramatic kill skill, which is all I wanted out of it when I picked it.

Vazarin now counters the enemy instead of just being healers. Instant revives removed because it cheapens death too much. (Instant-reviving could/should totally be a Kubrow/Kavat mod, though)

Naramon is now tactical stealth with significant side benefits, as opposed to unlimited stealth with no other significant benefits.

Zenurik is now a source of bounty of all kinds, but not an overwhelmingly OP benefit like Energy Overflow.

Unairu is now the scaling tank school, to outlast all else.

Edited September 18, 2016 by ChronoEclipse
justifications

[Blakrana]

Focus is...an odd thing. I'm admittedly still unsure what the power is meant to be for beyond 'sure why not'. I've not seen any situation where I can't just solve it with Frame powers or gun/melee as needed. Granted I am a pretty casual sort of player, mostly in for stuff that I can either Solo or are 'within BS quotient' so perhaps Focus is more relevant higher up but I think that's part of the problem: There's so little incentive and using it is mostly just to get some useful but not necessary perks going. Toss in the lack of active engagement with it...I honestly can't recall the last time I used it. Focus doesn't really motivate me to use it.

Having been playing God Eater since it came out on Steam, personally I find the Blood Rage mechanic interesting as a comparison: Charge builds through regular play carrying between missions (compared to Focus' fresh state per mission), and triggering the state requires you to earn it through a number of challenges within 30 seconds...fail even 1 and that's it, lose 100% worth of charge and no super mode (compared to the 'press button, aim and done' of Focus). However, your allies can help you fulfil these challenge conditions, making the success of the Blood Rage as much a component of teamwork as your own ability to do it. Success is, in my opinion, freaking awesome as a result of the effort required. Hard work for High Reward just feels so good.

I don't want to argue Focus should copy Blood Rage...but it should at least bring that sense of gratification from its use. This is the Tenno's full power, right? Then why does it feel so...average? Focus just feels so incredibly weak and largely one note, which is a pity really. The corollary to that however...is the fact we don't have anything that actually needs the swinging power either. I mean...We negate enemies constantly with regular play. Without something to present us with a scenario where we need more power...it's just adding water to a full glass in my view.

I will admit I'm biased in how I see things, but to close I believe that Focus exemplifies the need for something to challenge us. Without a tangible obstacle to overcome, something where we need more power (and we're already stupidly powerful as standard)...Focus is just going to feel more of the same. Focus needs a purpose from which to devise mechanics to reinforce this 'big thing'. Waiting alone just...doesn't make something feel powerful in my view.

Any event, apologies for rambling on. Hopefully I've said something that may be useful for discussion, at least.

[--Q--uaint]

Some silly thoughts regarding Ash:

Shuriken shouldn't alert enemies, and its slash proc should scale with duration (and probably have a higher base duration than normal procs).

Teleport should force victims into the same plane Ash is in. I shouldn't have to leave the Rift just so I can actually use the offensive part of that ability.

 

Bladestorm replaced with Rifted Slaughter:

Duration based cast, 15-20 seconds. Cancelable.

Puts you in the Rift, and rolling won't pull you out (alternately, rolling will put you out but can also put you back in). This mimics the property of current Bladestorm making you invulnerable.

All damage dealt is guaranteed to proc slash (slash proc damage may or may not scale with power strength)

During Rifted Slaughter, Smoke Bomb's stagger will toggle enemies in or out of the Rift.

Thoughts?

[taiiat]

26 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

its slash proc should scale with duration (and probably have a higher base duration than normal procs).

Ashs' Passive pretty well covers the base Duration amount, i guess.
(quietly grumbles again about how lame that is of a Passive since it partially overlaps with Saryn, and that Ash should have a different one that's unique)

[Archwizard]

Something a friend of mine and I were discussing today: Why don't Ember and Volt switch ultimates?

Volt's kit is built around mobility (other than the severe penalties on carrying his EShield, which we're working on), but his ultimate is weirdly... static. Meanwhile, Ember's kit doesn't really have a driving playstyle beyond "burn everything", but her immovable 3 and mobile 4 are at perfect odds with each other.

Now while it could be left to debate whether World on Fire should be able to exist in the first place, or what kind of kit Ember should have... a proximity-damage effect that moves with you would be right up Volt's alley more than anyone's, especially since it has zero penalties with high movement speed, and he's essentially the jack-of-all-trades among casters.
Food for thought.

On 9/19/2016 at 9:38 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

-snip-

Honestly? I don't think any frame should have Rift effects aside from Limbo. We shouldn't be focusing on making other frames better with Rift mechanics than he is, at the very least until he's had a rework.

As taiiat said, he's already got passive bonuses for his Slash procs, he really doesn't need more on top of that.

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Something a friend of mine and I were discussing today: Why don't Ember and Volt switch ultimates?

Ehrm... wouldn't that render Fire Blast at least partially redundant?

 

[Archwizard]

40 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Ehrm... wouldn't that render Fire Blast at least partially redundant?

You mean, beyond the fact that most of Ember's kit is already redundant damage skills? 
Perhaps, if they were swapped 1:1. Of course, we could also offer alterations beyond "fire version of Discharge", or simply leave the alternative 4th skill that's in the OP.

The point is, the two frames each have ultimates that represent the other's philosophy, rather than their own - and they're generally the most problematic abilities in each kit, albeit for very different reasons.

[taiiat]

maybe. personally, the way World on Fire looks is really cool and it's nice QoL that it follows you around, so that the cool stuff is always around you.

i don't intrinsically think that the paper functionality is no good for Ember. i consider Fire Blast useful (the Wave, the Ring does basically nothing but we all know that), since World on Fire and Accelerant aren't mega Range Abilities or anything, being Offensive seems natural to me, and Fire Blast allows clearing areas that get 'too hot' (haha hue.).
the Ability might not move, but it has a good amount of area it can cover so it works while you're moving around if you ask me.

[Aquasurge]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Something a friend of mine and I were discussing today: Why don't Ember and Volt switch ultimates?

Volt's kit is built around mobility (other than the severe penalties on carrying his EShield, which we're working on), but his ultimate is weirdly... static. Meanwhile, Ember's kit doesn't really have a driving playstyle beyond "burn everything", but her immovable 3 and mobile 4 are at perfect odds with each other.

Now while it could be left to debate whether World on Fire should be able to exist in the first place, or what kind of kit Ember should have... a proximity-damage effect that moves with you would be right up Volt's alley more than anyone's, especially since it has zero penalties with high movement speed, and he's essentially the jack-of-all-trades among casters.
Food for thought.

it depends. while considering that it might be a good idea if combined with the op's suggestion to bump up vanilla volt's base energy. on the other hand there were a lot of people who are opposed to the idea of an electric WoF clone - it still feels a bit clunky with ES

[Archwizard]

17 minutes ago, taiiat said:

maybe. personally, the way World on Fire looks is really cool and it's nice QoL that it follows you around, so that the cool stuff is always around you.

i don't intrinsically think that the paper functionality is no good for Ember. i consider Fire Blast useful (the Wave, the Ring does basically nothing but we all know that), since World on Fire and Accelerant aren't mega Range Abilities or anything, being Offensive seems natural to me, and Fire Blast allows clearing areas that get 'too hot' (haha hue.).
the Ability might not move, but it has a good amount of area it can cover so it works while you're moving around if you ask me.

I'm not saying the abilities aren't useful, just that they don't blend into one cohesive kit.

Fireball's out there as with most of the early-release 1 skills, Fire Blast says "stay here" while World on Fire says "move"; the only aspect with overlap is the raw, flat damage. Accelerant is the only ability that interacts with any of her other abilities, and only because it provides a damage buff which, most of the time, just benefits Ember unless she brought Fireball Frenzy.

Mechanically, she's just... boring.

1 hour ago, Aquasurge said:

on the other hand there were a lot of people who are opposed to the idea of an electric WoF clone - it still feels a bit clunky with ES

That's only due to the horrendous implementation of mobile ES. If ES didn't cost us a mile for every inch, being able to turn into an unstoppable thunderball would be perfect synergy.

It's a shame it won't happen anyway, since we need the visual from the Profit trailer.

[taiiat]

Just now, Archwizard said:

Accelerant is the only ability that interacts with any of her other abilities

that can (and obviously should) be addressed, but doesn't demand new Abilities or significantly rewriting the existing ones, necessarily.
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Archwizard]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but doesn't demand new Abilities or significantly rewriting the existing ones, necessarily.

True.

They could just tack on more status effects for her role onto each ability like they did with Oberon. Assuming anyone can coherently say what that role is, being more specific than "burn everything".

... It's not an optimal solution however, which is rather what this thread is about.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

i meant more that, functionality can be expanded and adjusted to make it work, we don't automatically need to throw things we have in the trash. should we? idunno.
Fire Blast and World on Fire have interesting use on paper however, and IMO Warframes only get cooler the more types of Tools they have at their disposal (not that every Warframe should do everything, but more types of Tools are always nice and give more options).

[IceColdHawk]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

we don't automatically need to throw things we have in the trash. should we?

Ofc not. But isn't fire blast already in the trash? 75 energy for a simple knockdown with limited range is pretty much trash.

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

You mean, beyond the fact that most of Ember's kit is already redundant damage skills? 

Pretty much this. Fireball is also pretty much a waste of energy unless you're using an augment and play to buff your teammates. Then again an augment should not be a bandaid and make an ability worth to use. The ability should be somewhat useful from the start and fireball sadly isn't currently.

So, do you suggest on swapping WoF and discharge with the frames or what? Or a rework for ember?

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Ofc not. But isn't fire blast already in the trash? 75 energy for a simple knockdown with limited range is pretty much trash.

so... the most practical address to that is... make it cost an appropriate amount of Energy for what it does.
Knockdown and Knockback + Area Denial is useful, because it controls Enemies.
we can always add more ways to use Abilities to 'flesh them out'.

 

Fireball is not super impressive for sure, but like he suggests, giving it Effects that incentivize using it in addition to Damage, but for other purposes, helps a lot.

[--Q--uaint]

I had another thought regarding the energy system: Have the regen rate scale inversely with the amount of missing energy. This encourages frequent use (though not spamming) of lesser powers, while allowing you to dig yourself in a hole if you want.

 

Volt:

Discharge should be given one simple buff: For the duration of Discharge, any enemy Volt touches or melees will be added to Discharge or have their damage cap progress reset.
This synergizes with Speed since he gets benefits from running around, and it makes Discharge's duration relevant against unarmored targets.

Ember:

Fireball should gain Fire Blast's ring of fire mechanic. Now it's not only better than standard Heat damage, but it also gives her easy/fluid/cheap chokepoint control.

Fire Blast should lose the ring of fire. Possible name change to Ignition?
Any enemy within 3/5/7/9 meters of Ember will be ragdolled away. When these ragdolls land, they will deal 10/15/20/25% (scaling with Strength) of their maximum HP in Heat damage in a 2/4/6/8 meter radius.
Ember now has a distinctive and powerful scaling damage ability (hilarious levels of power when combined with Accelerant), with a bit of inconsistency to balance it out.

World on Fire now loses 50% (unmoddable) of its damage over 30 seconds (unmoddable); in return, it grants Ember a power strength buff that scales up to 100% (moddable) over 30 seconds (unmoddable).
This effectively doubles your power strength and helps to keep all of her powers relevant at higher levels.