Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

If we go the conservative route, it may be a lot more usable if it had a direct effect on allies or enemies within range - something situational enough to match the niche effect (given that it detonates pickups - Mirage would actively become the anti-loot class), but with enough common use to benefit from spamming it. For instance, causing the enemy's next shot to jam, backfire, or just wildly fire off against their will, each of which works within SoH's primary aesthetic function.

as ever, this Ability would really be okay if it had more of the types of Effects it already has. instead of only Doorways, also do neat things with Cameras, Arc Traps, everything!

i don't think 'anti-loot' is really a problem, since what Ammo Pickups Mirage deletes only affects that Client anyways.
just so long as scuttling the stuff on the ground does useful things to make up for it.
i'm much less enthusiastic about this part of the Ability though. the environmental stuff is neat, the Ammo stuff is not very interesting nor generally useful.

[--Q--uaint]

On 10/26/2016 at 0:08 PM, Archwizard said:

I'm still of the opinion that Hydroid's passive should have something to do with water, but I suppose that's up for debate considering his many themes.

Would it work to just give him some sort of regen while in water, and also allow his abilities to leave puddles? So it's super situational if he's not using powers, but can be significant if he is.

That puts it in the same territory as Inaros's health-on-finisher passive...

On 10/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Archwizard said:

it may be a lot more usable if it had a direct effect on allies or enemies within range - something situational enough to match the niche effect (given that it detonates pickups - Mirage would actively become the anti-loot class), but with enough common use to benefit from spamming it

It should grant allies a bonus status proc on their next attack. Most likely it would have a chance which can scale with power strength to give multiple procs from a single attack.

On 10/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Archwizard said:

For instance, causing the enemy's next shot to jam, backfire, or just wildly fire off against their will, each of which works within SoH's primary aesthetic function

I think it would be more interesting to not have a hard CC, but just make the affected enemies deal reduced damage either for the duration or until their next reload.

On 10/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Archwizard said:

Mirage swaps appearances with the target, putting her into a stealth state and causing enemies to attack her target. This illusion fades if the target dies or Mirage inflicts weapon damage

Seems not very useful. You can't use it for stealth because it creates a decoy which will alert the enemies... and you can't use it for combat since you can't attack.

I guess it would work to give you a breather, but Mirage really can't use a breather terribly well. If she has DR from Eclipse, she's unkillable anyway... if she doesn't, her HP is effectively binary in most content.

I think at this point it's relevant to bring back up an idea I had a while back for replacing SoH:

Sleight of Hand is replaced with Glimmering Veil. It is a channeled ability, having two modes that you can swap between (dark and light). Dark-mode blinds any enemy who damages you for 2/3/4/5 seconds, and light-mode has a 5/8/12/15% reload speed boost and SoH’s effects on everything in a 4/6/8/10 meter radius.
The channeled cost would be low, and active dark/light modes would force dark/light effects on her other skills.

My thought here is that denying Mirage the ability to regain energy while she forces light or dark would be a sufficient "nerf" to make it workable. Combined with the relatively high energy cost that a strong Eclipse is liable to have, I think it's fair.

I also think the blind should be removed from Prism, to make it a damage ability with CC as a bonus. This will encourage buffing it, and synergy with the new #2 can be accomplished by having light/dark be a real tradeoff rather than a false choice.
Prism now begins emitting beams as soon as the cast animation starts. Damage type while in the light is Fire, damage type while in the dark is Radiation. Proc chance is 10% in light and 25% in the dark per second, scaling with Power Strength.

On 10/27/2016 at 4:17 PM, taiiat said:

i'm much less enthusiastic about this part of the Ability though. the environmental stuff is neat, the Ammo stuff is not very interesting nor generally useful.

I've never really been a fan of that part of the ability either. It really is just shooting yourself in the foot. Your Soma really will do a whole lot more with those bullets that SoH can.

With that said, making ammo pickups attack in the manner of Azima disks for your currently equipped weapon would be... hilarious. And gamebreaking.

 

The rest of this post will address this next quote, using ideas from myself and others in this thread from forever ago.

On 10/27/2016 at 4:17 PM, taiiat said:

as ever, this Ability would really be okay if it had more of the types of Effects it already has. instead of only Doorways, also do neat things with Cameras, Arc Traps, everything!

Remove or buff significantly the loot interactions.

All standard terminals in range are instantly hacked. This includes the terminals that come with any ol' tile, but not Spy vaults and the like.

Ramparts:
Any Grineer that tries to board them is ragdolled away and takes some damage.
The Rampart itself automatically acquires and fires upon enemy targets and its damage is enhanced by Power Strength.
During the ability, the Rampart’s damage is converted to Finisher if manned by an ally.

Blunts now explode for their remaining health in Blast damage with a guaranteed proc.

Grineer Sensor Bars:
Deal Blast damage with a guaranteed proc to any Grineer who walks through, but when an ally touches the field they will simply break.
If broken during the ability, the Sensor Bar will grant energy in an AoE like a Death Orb activated by a Prime.

Arc Traps now attack enemies instead of allies, and grant a pulse of energy when destroyed.

If all of the above isn't enough to make it worth using VS Grineer, SoH working as Mind Control on Latchers and Rollers would be enough to bridge that gap IMO.

Corpus Cameras now look at enemies, and any enemy caught in their gaze is afflicted by a nerfed version of Nekros's Terrify.

Orokin (and maybe Corpus?) Turrets now activate and fire upon nearby enemies for the duration, with damage boosted by power strength.

Orokin Traps:
Energy color is changed to Mirage’s.
No longer damage/CC allies, but grant 20 energy from a Thumper’s wave and 5 energy/s from a laser. (scale both with power strength?)
Orokin Traps store allied damage for application at the end of the ability, much like Mind Control targets.

Probably more ideas vs Corpus/Infested/Void are needed, but I think vs Grineer is good.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Would it work to just give him some sort of regen while in water, and also allow his abilities to leave puddles? So it's super situational if he's not using powers, but can be significant if he is.

That puts it in the same territory as Inaros's health-on-finisher passive...

 

With that said, making ammo pickups attack in the manner of Azima disks for your currently equipped weapon would be... hilarious. And gamebreaking.

 

-Sleight of Hand doing more things to the Environment-

not anywhere near it, honestly. that isn't really a passive as it is part of the Ability, effectively. idunno it is a Passive in theory but at the same time it's like Chromas' Energy thing being a 'Passive'. not... really.

but anyways, it wouldn't be anywhere near it, just make it like, not more Regen than Rejuvenation would give. it would be useful, but not likely to change how you play the game.

it also wouldn't render Curative Undertow non useful, as it Heals Hydroid ~50HP/sec if one has Vitality Equipped. and ~20HP/sec if one doesn't.
so the Augment would still be much more effective. (that Augment does consume 5E to do that Healing though, so Duration of the puddles would need to be carefully chosen so as to not be more Energy efficient than using this Augment)

 

that could be fairly useful if the Elemental Type the Pickups deal now would be retained and they'd be shooting Elementally tuned bullets around the area....
gamebreaking is questionable, as it would be less efficient than shooting the bullets yourself (otherwise you're incentivized to not use your Guns), and the current Damage Types they contain aren't some Meta choices or anything (4 base Elemental Types across all Pickup Types).

 

that's the right idea. more bizarre, but useful things.

[--Q--uaint]

It occurs to me that the only significant amount of liquid you have access to in any tileset... is blood.

Sort of playing off of the Dune series, why not give Hydroid HP or energy every time he does a ground-finisher? This synergizes fairly strongly with his kit, since he's all about knocking people around.

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's the right idea. more bizarre, but useful things.

The other thread had SoH locking enemies in whatever room they were in, while letting Tenno through. I figured that would be problematic...

However, giving doors the same function as lockers could make all the difference to the ability's viability: Any affected door will close on and instagib the first enemy who walks through it.
Unless used very tactically, this effect would mostly just wreck trash mobs... but it has the potential to be extremely strong.

Thoughts?

[Archwizard]

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Would it work to just give him some sort of regen while in water, and also allow his abilities to leave puddles? So it's super situational if he's not using powers, but can be significant if he is.

That puts it in the same territory as Inaros's health-on-finisher passive...

Not quite the same. There are multiple ways for Inaros to achieve a finisher, even outside of his powers - stealth mechanics, other players' Blind effects, or awareness reset mechanics like Silence...
There are only a handful of tiles with water in them, and half of those have water that is virtually inaccessible to Hydroid (Uranus' puts you in Sharkwing, most tilesets just teleport you straight back to the top if the water level is too high for walking but too low for Sharkwing). As taiiat said above, that makes it primarily a "passive" fueled by his powers, which isn't passive at all; you may as well just have Barrage lay down a healing pool as a base effect.

Besides, healing isn't really part of the pirate repertoire, is it?

Call it bias, but I still think there's something that can be done with soaking/drenching enemies as a unique personal status effect. Combining Water with Cold and Electricity has some obvious advantages there, and underhanded tricks are a staple of piracy...

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

It should grant allies a bonus status proc on their next attack. Most likely it would have a chance which can scale with power strength to give multiple procs from a single attack.

I think it would be more interesting to not have a hard CC, but just make the affected enemies deal reduced damage either for the duration or until their next reload.

Not sure, honestly. Having it only be on the next attack seems apropos, but having it buff allies just doesn't seem like it fits the ability, when it's the most heavily sabotage-oriented skill in the game.

I wouldn't call it a hard CC if enemies are still shooting uncontrollably, but happen to be hitting their allies. If anything, I'm actually surprised DE hasn't had "firing blindly at allies" be a mechanic for the resident Radiation-wielding Illusionist. With a brief duration, it would at least give the ability some general use, which is what it sorely lacks without setup or luck.

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Seems not very useful. You can't use it for stealth because it creates a decoy which will alert the enemies... and you can't use it for combat since you can't attack.

I guess it would work to give you a breather, but Mirage really can't use a breather terribly well. If she has DR from Eclipse, she's unkillable anyway... if she doesn't, her HP is effectively binary in most content.

Could always be altered to have it not break until the target dies. The idea was less "I'm invisible, I can Finisher everyone" and more "I need to get through this room without dying".

Eclipse's DR isn't exactly reliable (what with only being available half the time), and I would never have said she was "unkillable" with it either.

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Sleight of Hand is replaced with Glimmering Veil. It is a channeled ability, having two modes that you can swap between (dark and light). Dark-mode blinds any enemy who damages you for 2/3/4/5 seconds, and light-mode has a 5/8/12/15% reload speed boost and SoH’s effects on everything in a 4/6/8/10 meter radius.
The channeled cost would be low, and active dark/light modes would force dark/light effects on her other skills.

Eh. I know you want it to be a supplement to Eclipse, but having one ability play with a cheap gimmick only to have another invalidate the gimmickry? If it'd been shipped that way, we'd have called it bad design - it rather parallels Limbo's issue with Rift Surge, needing one ability to give another any advantage.

Besides, the "blind when attacked" thing is more appropriate for Oberon, retributive damage output and staggering defense.

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Remove or buff significantly the loot interactions.

All standard terminals in range are instantly hacked. This includes the terminals that come with any ol' tile, but not Spy vaults and the like.

Ramparts:
Any Grineer that tries to board them is ragdolled away and takes some damage.
The Rampart itself automatically acquires and fires upon enemy targets and its damage is enhanced by Power Strength.
During the ability, the Rampart’s damage is converted to Finisher if manned by an ally.

Blunts now explode for their remaining health in Blast damage with a guaranteed proc.

Grineer Sensor Bars:
Deal Blast damage with a guaranteed proc to any Grineer who walks through, but when an ally touches the field they will simply break.
If broken during the ability, the Sensor Bar will grant energy in an AoE like a Death Orb activated by a Prime.

Arc Traps now attack enemies instead of allies, and grant a pulse of energy when destroyed.

If all of the above isn't enough to make it worth using VS Grineer, SoH working as Mind Control on Latchers and Rollers would be enough to bridge that gap IMO.

Corpus Cameras now look at enemies, and any enemy caught in their gaze is afflicted by a nerfed version of Nekros's Terrify.

Orokin (and maybe Corpus?) Turrets now activate and fire upon nearby enemies for the duration, with damage boosted by power strength.

Orokin Traps:
Energy color is changed to Mirage’s.
No longer damage/CC allies, but grant 20 energy from a Thumper’s wave and 5 energy/s from a laser. (scale both with power strength?)
Orokin Traps store allied damage for application at the end of the ability, much like Mind Control targets.

Part of me wants to say the ammo cases should explode and deal damage based on equipped weapon mods. After all, they are the slugs we're firing.
Removal would sit better with me though, just so players can feel free to actually cast it without costing them too much.

I wanna say Ramparts should begin spinning and continuously firing, and then burst into flames when they overheat, damaging the Grineer user.

I wouldn't say Blunts need to scale their damage. The fact that they can explode and knockdown enemies makes them no longer a protection, but a target.

Sensor doors should function the same way Corpus lasers do. Restore Tenno, stunlock enemies in the entrance.

Doubt Orokin traps need to grant more energy to players - that's what Prime frames are for.

My big worry about SoH in general though? It has far too many effects for players to keep track of without checking the wiki. Not to mention that the majority of its effects are dependent on tileset generation, and on your teammates not breaking every object in the room.
Things like containers blinding nearby enemies when broken? That virtually never sees practical use, even if containers aren't broken open for loot; you'd have to shoot past enemies and hope they're bundled near the crate.

It is a pity though, it just hit me that if Titania hadn't taken Lantern, Mirage could've had an illusion effect like Noise Arrow, a distraction that calls enemies to it and then detonates when they get close. (... although if we remove the ammo interaction, that could be an interesting augment...)

Edited October 29, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

51 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

However, giving doors the same function as lockers could make all the difference to the ability's viability: Any affected door will close on and instagib the first enemy who walks through it.
Unless used very tactically, this effect would mostly just wreck trash mobs... but it has the potential to be extremely strong.

sounds hilarious, but for practical reasons obviously it wouldn't be a Script Kill (or shouldn't be, Digital Extremes should know better than that).

i definitely want to see an Enemy walk through 'the scary door', and have it chomp on them a few times while they flail around in the middle, flopping like a fish.
>:)

33 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

My big worry about SoH in general though? It has far too many effects for players to keep track of without checking the wiki.

Things like containers blinding nearby enemies when broken? That virtually never sees practical use, even if containers aren't broken open for loot; you'd have to shoot past enemies and hope they're bundled near the crate.

i think that's okay if the different Effects are numerous enough so that you'll always get some useful stuff.

if Effects weren't just one off/one use, that would absolve that tbh.

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Call it bias, but I still think there's something that can be done with soaking/drenching enemies as a unique personal status effect. Combining Water with Cold and Electricity has some obvious advantages there, and underhanded tricks are a staple of piracy..

Perhaps have that status proc whenever Hydroid does non-weapon damage? This means bullet jumps + dive kicks can get in on the action, and makes it not just his abilities.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

"firing blindly at allies"

I feel like that wouldn't work very well around Bombards, Napalms, Sapping Ospreys, and every Mutalist unit. These units are useful basically wherever they're shooting, since their AoE/sustain/homing creates significant area denial.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Could always be altered to have it not break until the target dies. The idea was less "I'm invisible, I can Finisher everyone" and more "I need to get through this room without dying".

I think it shouldn't be counted as invisibility anyway. If an enemy is unalerted, seeing you wouldn't alert them... but any enemy you damaged would fight back normally.

I also really like the idea of Mirage's other powers being "stuck" to the victim, to complete the trickery:
HoM would sit around the target, but shoot where you're shooting so you can flank enemies by yourself.
Eclipse would buff you, but Total Eclipse would work from the target's position.
Prism would launch from the victim towards where you aim, and wouldn't require an animation lock.

TBH, I'm liking this version of the idea better than my own ability idea.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Eclipse's DR isn't exactly reliable (what with only being available half the time), and I would never have said she was "unkillable" with it either.

95% DR is not exactly godmode, but it's close enough as makes little to no difference in levels under ~50.

It isn't reliable, yes, which is why most people don't even bother to account for it in their builds.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Eh. I know you want it to be a supplement to Eclipse, but having one ability play with a cheap gimmick only to have another invalidate the gimmickry? If it'd been shipped that way, we'd have called it bad design - it rather parallels Limbo's issue with Rift Surge, needing one ability to give another any advantage.

But it's entirely not the case.

Glimmering Veil does not invalidate Eclipse's gimmickry. Having it on is a significant disadvantage, since I don't know anyone who maintains Prism and that's the only other channeled ability she has. All it does is give Mirage the ability to actually use the half of her powers that is basically disabled in a number of tilesets.
The Void has almost no shadow, and the Eris tileset has basically no light. Corpus Outpost has both, but in confusing places (aka the light level actually has nothing to do with it.).
I would put this in the same boat as making Overload no longer work with electronics; DE's map design doesn't really support it, so giving it the ability to work properly anywhere is a massive plus... especially since #2 is currently entirely dependent on tileset for actual usefulness.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Besides, the "blind when attacked" thing is more appropriate for Oberon, retributive damage output and staggering defense.

I will entirely grant you that, but I liked the idea of allowing Mirage to blind enemies even if blinding is removed from Prism (which IMO it should be).

I would be fine with other buffs, but giving control to Eclipse/Prism at the cost of channeling is something I see as balanced.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

I wanna say Ramparts should begin spinning and continuously firing, and then burst into flames when they overheat, damaging the Grineer user.

This is more thematic, I suppose, but I like the idea of her making Ramparts actually worth boarding personally.

Perhaps she should be able to leverage broken Ramparts as well, to fix the issue of everything breaking and being worthless?

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

I wouldn't say Blunts need to scale their damage. The fact that they can explode and knockdown enemies makes them no longer a protection, but a target.

I'm almost certain that Blunts do not vary with enemy level. This was more meant as a nerf to using old Blunts.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Sensor doors should function the same way Corpus lasers do. Restore Tenno, stunlock enemies in the entrance.

I disagree. The consequences for being in a Corpus door when the ability runs out is maybe being knocked down and losing your shields.

The consequences for being in a Grineer door when the ability runs out is being Magnetic proc'd.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Doubt Orokin traps need to grant more energy to players - that's what Prime frames are for.

Orokin traps already damage enemies, and Primes can only get something from them once. Mirage would be able to get continuous energy from them while nullifying their threat to her team.

I suppose you could just make them not affect allies at all, but that seems weird and bland.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

for practical reasons obviously it wouldn't be a Script Kill (or shouldn't be, Digital Extremes should know better than that)

Why not? Lockers are. Each door would only be able to claim one victim per cast, and you could even make it non-refreshable.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

if Effects weren't just one off/one use, that would absolve that tbh.

So much this.

[Archwizard]

34 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Perhaps have that status proc whenever Hydroid does non-weapon damage? This means bullet jumps + dive kicks can get in on the action, and makes it not just his abilities.

Or any damage in general, as I've already written in the OP. Ability, weapon, jumps, whatever.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I feel like that wouldn't work very well around Bombards, Napalms, Sapping Ospreys, and every Mutalist unit. These units are useful basically wherever they're shooting, since their AoE/sustain/homing creates significant area denial.

Fair 'nuff. Still leaves the option of having it just blow up in their face on the next shot.

Y'know, like everything else does under SoH. If not effect, the difference really is just the availability of objects to trap.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I think it shouldn't be counted as invisibility anyway. If an enemy is unalerted, seeing you wouldn't alert them... but any enemy you damaged would fight back normally.

I also really like the idea of Mirage's other powers being "stuck" to the victim, to complete the trickery:
HoM would sit around the target, but shoot where you're shooting so you can flank enemies by yourself.
Eclipse would buff you, but Total Eclipse would work from the target's position.
Prism would launch from the victim towards where you aim, and wouldn't require an animation lock.

TBH, I'm liking this version of the idea better than my own ability idea.

Sounds awesome, but HoM sounds like potential hell to code. Still, the Prism bit has potential!

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I liked the idea of allowing Mirage to blind enemies even if blinding is removed from Prism (which IMO it should be).

I'll grant that it's been quite overpowered in the past, but since it became limited by LoS it's actually more in line with other CC effects. (Of course, I'd still be okay with seeing it be limited to a certain number of targets at a given time - there's only so many facets of that thing, and there should only be 1 beam per.)

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This is more thematic, I suppose, but I like the idea of her making Ramparts actually worth boarding personally.

And I think SoH should still to just sabotaging objects. At the very least if it sticks to making environmental objects turn against their users, then you can get away with just telling players that SoH booby-traps things because it's enough information to use the ability; if you had it also buff some things, you'd just have a long list of arbitrary effects.

If a player is boarding the Rampart, it shouldn't have the random spinning or explosive overheating. All the buff it needs.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I'm almost certain that Blunts do not vary with enemy level. This was more meant as a nerf to using old Blunts.

I've seen Blunts that break in 3 hits and in 100 hits. They might actually scale.

That being said, they're literally balloons, and Mirage is a party clown.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I disagree. The consequences for being in a Corpus door when the ability runs out is maybe being knocked down and losing your shields.

The consequences for being in a Grineer door when the ability runs out is being Magnetic proc'd.

I said it should function the same way, and gave broad terms. I didn't say it had to be the exact same function.

For instance, the Sensor Door could blind (sensor bars are kinda like eyes, yeah?) or de-armor enemies (magnetic door + ferrite armor), and heal allies. (Although having it restore energy to allies would be more appropriate, given that it actually steals some in the first place.)

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

i definitely want to see an Enemy walk through 'the scary door', and have it chomp on them a few times while they flail around in the middle, flopping like a fish.
>:)

At the very least, the door should slam down on them, deal some Impact damage to nearby enemies and ragdoll them before raising.

Problem with having it chomp multiple times is that it might keep out players - which is, sadly, exactly why Atlas' walls no longer let you stand on them.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

if Effects weren't just one off/one use, that would absolve that tbh.

I definitely agree that the effects that can feasibly be repeated (objects that AREN'T destroyed on first use, like ammo or storage boxes) should be repeatable. Door-slamming, sure.

[--Q--uaint]

Just now, Archwizard said:

Or any damage in general, as I've already written in the OP. Ability, weapon, jumps, whatever.

I don't think that's a good passive, because it just amounts to "Hydroid is better at using cold/electric damage than the Warframes that are based around using them"

Making him have to use something that's not a weapon means he has to trigger it intentionally.

3 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Fair 'nuff. Still leaves the option of having it just blow up in their face on the next shot.

Y'know, like everything else does under SoH. If not effect, the difference really is just the availability of objects to trap.

They could also just get the gunjam animation from Shooting Gallery the next time they try to attack.

4 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Sounds awesome, but HoM sounds like potential hell to code. Still, the Prism bit has potential!

^^

AFAIK, the only issue I can see is making HoM stick to the right target. Aiming is simple since we're already in a TPS; camera angle =/= shooting angle anyway.

8 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I'll grant that it's been quite overpowered in the past, but since it became limited by LoS it's actually more in line with other CC effects. (Of course, I'd still be okay with seeing it be limited to a certain number of targets at a given time - there's only so many facets of that thing, and there should only be 1 beam per.)

It's not that the CC is OP, it's that it overwhelms the rest of the ability's function. It's a damage ability that's cheaper, spammier, and more effective as a CC... the only tradeoff is that you lose the damage you don't care about in the first place.

I would be ok with having the Prism able to draw aggro, though.

A target limit that's not very visually communicated seems... bad.

24 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

At the very least if it sticks to making environmental objects turn against their users, then you can get away with just telling players that SoH booby-traps things because it's enough information to use the ability; if you had it also buff some things, you'd just have a long list of arbitrary effects.

At least make power stats affect things, then?

25 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I've seen Blunts that break in 3 hits and in 100 hits. They might actually scale.

I guess I haven't actually tested it. shrug

26 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

That being said, they're literally balloons, and Mirage is a party clown.

;3

27 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I said it should function the same way, and gave broad terms. I didn't say it had to be the exact same function.

For instance, the Sensor Door could blind (sensor bars are kinda like eyes, yeah?) or de-armor enemies (magnetic door + ferrite armor), and heal allies. (Although having it restore energy to allies would be more appropriate, given that it actually steals some in the first place.)

I'm saying that it makes the most sense to have the sensor bar break because the consequences of not breaking it are dire.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

At the very least, the door should slam down on them, deal some Impact damage to nearby enemies and ragdoll them before raising.
Problem with having it chomp multiple times is that it might keep out players - which is, sadly, exactly why Atlas' walls no longer let you stand on them.

I definitely agree that the effects that can feasibly be repeated (objects that AREN'T destroyed on first use, like ammo or storage boxes) should be repeatable. Door-slamming, sure.

yeah i suppose. smashing closed and scattering Enemies like bowling pins puts on a good show too.

anything other than Ammo might as well all be repeatable. Pots, Lockers, Doors, Blunts definitely not because Enemies bring more with them, but if it doesn't automatically get resupplied on the map, then it might as well be repeatable. 

[Aquasurge]

with regards to hydroid's passive, perhaps enemies inflicted with knockdowns, ragdolls and staggers will become soaked to a certain degree and that these soaked enemies will become more susceptible to crits and statuses? the more dramatic the effect the higher the status/crit chance?

Edited October 30, 2016 by Aquasurge

[--Q--uaint]

After another round of talking to @taiiat, I'd like to propose some different modifications to Trinity.

New passive:
Trinity has a storage of "Life Force", which can store up to... 200 points, say? I don't think this should be moddable.
Every time an enemy dies near Trinity, she gains 10 Life Force.
While Trinity has Life Force, she and allies within 20(?) meters gain 1 energy per second for every 50(?) Life Force she has stored.
Trinity can cast abilities from Life Force (1 to 1 energy cost), and it is expended before her energy pool is. However, it isn't used by anything else that uses energy.

Well of Life takes over the role of Energy Vampire, using the following mechanics:
No longer messes with enemy health.
When the ability ends by death of the enemy or by duration, Trinity is refunded the casting cost. (What this does when cast from Life Force is up for debate.)
Well of Life gives 4 pulses with current Energy Vampire's mechanics, only the pulses grant health.
If Trinity's health is full, it instead gives her Life Force.
Augment: Overflow grants overshields. Trinity only gains shields after both health and Life Force are full.

 

This frees up a slot for a new #2, while also fixing WoL being useless and EV being broken.

The EV in the OP could work for #2, but I'm partial to the idea of zone-based DR if the Blessing in the OP is used.

If the EV in the OP is used, Blessing should be reverted to missing-health% DR, but with a hard cap of 85-95%.
Keeping it limited to the affinity sharing range is fine.
EDIT: If y'all don't like capped missing-health DR, there's always my other idea from a while ago...

Spoiler

Blessing: As now, instant heal of HP and shields. All (actual, not potential) healed HP and shields is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is. However, the heal only applies to allies within a base range of 20 meters. (or maybe affinity range, but I think this is probably a bit strong for that?)
For its duration, Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains from Blessing’s “buffer,” with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)
Optional synergy with Well of Life: all healing done by Well of Life during Blessing is added to the QT buffer.

Blessing is no longer infinite-range except in its squad-support capacity, and it needs to heal to support the squad in that way.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[tnccs215]

On ‎27‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:18 PM, Archwizard said:

Mirage swaps appearances with the target, putting her into a stealth state and causing enemies to attack her target. This illusion fades if the target dies or Mirage inflicts weapon damage

I actually feel this is a good idea... For Loki.

I think loki is another miss built frame. Being a tirckster, invisibility is only partially befitting in theme-- and overall extremely broken. I think Invisibility should be replaced by this new power.

Why not Mirage? Well, she already has her 1 and 3 as defensive abilities. Honestly, I'd rather go the conservative right, at least for the time being.

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I actually feel this is a good idea... For Loki.

I think loki is another miss built frame. Being a tirckster, invisibility is only partially befitting in theme-- and overall extremely broken. I think Invisibility should be replaced by this new power.

Why not Mirage? Well, she already has her 1 and 3 as defensive abilities. Honestly, I'd rather go the conservative right, at least for the time being.

Invisibility is fine, imo. Make it part of Switch Teleport: You get a silhouette of the enemy you swap with, while the enemy gets a silhouette of Loki (enabling friendly fire on it). EDIT: This would also make it make the most sense with friendly fire, because to enemies, nothing has changed visually.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Azamagon

[--Q--uaint]

9 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I think loki is another miss built frame

I heartily disagree.

9 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Being a tirckster, invisibility is only partially befitting in theme-- and overall extremely broken.

Puck from A Midsummer Night's Dream was frequently invisible to accomplish his goals. It's definitely thematic.

If invisibility, as a mechanic, needs fixing, it needs to be fixed extrinsically.

9 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I think Invisibility should be replaced by this new power.

Loki already has Decoy. With Irradiated Disarm, 3/4 of his abilities would make targets that aren't him. This isn't necessarily bad, I suppose, but it's a sizeable chunk of Limbo's problems.

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Make it part of Switch Teleport: You get a silhouette of the enemy you swap with, while the enemy gets a silhouette of Loki (enabling friendly fire on it). EDIT: This would also make it make the most sense with friendly fire, because to enemies, nothing has changed visually.

I think this should go on the suggestion for Mirage, as well. She swaps with an enemy, leaving them with HoM and the AoE from Eclipse. I like this idea.

[taiiat]

you're right, Loki is misbuilt because anytime Digital Extremes does anything with Nyx or Loki, they just take a step closer to them becoming the same Warframe.

sorry, i'll take my salt and jaw dropping disbelief elsewhere.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

I really like all of the reworks/retune. There is only one I disagree with. I am a Nyx guy and there has been some discussion about removing psychic bolts infavor for Telekinesis . See thread below, your thoughts ?

 

[Aquasurge]

6 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I really like all of the reworks/retune. There is only one I disagree with. I am a Nyx guy and there has been some discussion about removing psychic bolts infavor for Telekinesis . See thread below, your thoughts ?

 

i actually agree with this as she is sort of in a similar situation to limbo where her first 3 abilities are pretty much the same now that PB has a chance to proc radiation.

[tnccs215]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

sorry, i'll take my salt and jaw dropping disbelief elsewhere.

Its ok, Im worse with Equinox.

18 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Make it part of Switch Teleport: You get a silhouette of the enemy you swap with, while the enemy gets a silhouette of Loki (enabling friendly fire on it). EDIT: This would also make it make the most sense with friendly fire, because to enemies, nothing has changed visually.

Suppose that does make sense

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

(...)

If invisibility, as a mechanic, needs fixing, it needs to be fixed extrinsically.

(...)

Very well. I yield.

[--Q--uaint]

I saw this post on Reddit, and it seems like what it proposes for Tidal Surge would give it a unique niche https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5ae4qi/i_cant_believe_de_never_used_of_missing_enemy/d9g0laa/

Then you could do something like:

Barrage is damage/cc, with RNG thrown in to balance its power

Tidal Surge is mobility/cc, with a side of "steal from the poor to help you steal from the rich" (a piratey thing, if I'm not mistaken)

Undertow is survivability/cc

With Tentacle Swarm taking the role of consistent and easily applicable cc, with few other benefits.

Now that I'm thinking about it, though, I think the Bladestorm rework is just what Tentacle Swarm needs to be consistent and useful. You mark the enemies you want tentacle'd, you pay only for their tentacles, and you have some chance of CCing other enemies as well.

[--Q--uaint]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:48 PM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I really like all of the reworks/retune. There is only one I disagree with. I am a Nyx guy and there has been some discussion about removing psychic bolts infavor for Telekinesis . See thread below, your thoughts ?

 

I don't really see this as viable; Psychic Bolts could pretty easily be retooled to be useful, and I don't feel telekinesis would work well with the flow of Warframe.

You could make the telekinesis work in short bursts, in the vein of Pull, but that seems significantly less thematic and wouldn't really synergize with Nyx very well.

Mag, for instance, has a long-cast-time ult with a short-ish range, a location-based debuff, and an effect that works better the more clustered the enemies are (Since it puts the shrapnel into Magnetize. The previous iteration was even more so.).
Pull is the bread-and-butter of Mag's kit, since it's independently useful and also synergizes with at least two of her other skills.

Nyx has a single target effect with very long range, a long range CC, and an ult that's more about defense than attack.
Controlling the location of enemies would help if you really wanted to feed Absorb for some reason, I guess?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

7 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I don't really see this as viable; Psychic Bolts could pretty easily be retooled to be useful, and I don't feel telekinesis would work well with the flow of Warframe.

You could make the telekinesis work in short bursts, in the vein of Pull, but that seems significantly less thematic and wouldn't really synergize with Nyx very well.

Mag, for instance, has a long-cast-time ult with a short-ish range, a location-based debuff, and an effect that works better the more clustered the enemies are (Since it puts the shrapnel into Magnetize. The previous iteration was even more so.).
Pull is the bread-and-butter of Mag's kit, since it's independently useful and also synergizes with at least two of her other skills.

Nyx has a single target effect with very long range, a long range CC, and an ult that's more about defense than attack.
Controlling the location of enemies would help if you really wanted to feed Absorb for some reason, I guess?

I was thinking more of a Utility Telekinesis instead of PB.

Example: 

- hacking terminals

- disabling traps from a distance

- controling/activating deathballs/turrets

- controlling inanimate objects/pickups

*the Star Wars fan in me desperately wants a "force choke" but i digress. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I was thinking more of a Utility Telekinesis instead of PB.

why not both?

why not let Physic Bolts do those things if you hit a neutral object with it?
while still retaining use on Enemies. (plus whatever thematic functionality can be attributed to it)

[Archwizard]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:48 PM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I really like all of the reworks/retune. There is only one I disagree with. I am a Nyx guy and there has been some discussion about removing psychic bolts infavor for Telekinesis . 

I have definitely thought of similar things in the past - Nyx grabbing an enemy, using them as a meat shield and then flinging them like a missile when she's done - but ultimately decided against it.

Thing is, from the perspective of gameplay, a Telekinesis effect really doesn't fit into Nyx's kit any more than Psychic Bolts does. She already has two effects that CC enemies and one that's a personal barrier. She doesn't need yet another effect that does one or both.

Now, as far as your iteration, it takes away the versatility of picking up enemies (since in any combat engagement, enemies are a grossly abundant resource) and instead forces players to rely on the availability of environmental objects she can interact with - which is the main issue with Sleight of Hand right now.

Although it is dawning on me now that a semi-telekinetic effect would actually be useful for Nyx's passive, having a way to fling enemies upon inflicting a specific status effect (Blast would be most functional, but Radiation would actually give her a use for the status without making it redundant of Chaos).

42 minutes ago, taiiat said:

why not let Physic Bolts do those things if you hit a neutral object with it?

Because hitting a terminal with an arrow of psionic energy should either do nothing (due to the terminal not having an organic neural network) or utterly destroy it (like it does to... literally anything else).

[Endless_Destruction]

Here's an idea for Nyx's second ability: Amnesia-resets the alerted status of every enemy in a room, and have them ignore you completely, as they would if you were invisible, for a small amount of time, unless Nyx deals any sort of damage, in which case they become re-alerted. Thematically, this makes sense, as Nyx's job is to play tricks on the enemy's mind. The ability will be a sort of "invisibility without being invisible," and be a handy way to escape a sticky situation, prevent alarms from going off, and it could potentially be very useful in Rescue and Capture type missions, preventing Wardens and Targets from being alerted.