Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Endless_Destruction]

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

That's actually a lot like Arch's Phoenix ability proposal. Or Razorwing.

Then again, you could just give her a bit of a revamp/change to everything her 'frame does... weapons included. It should probably just drain over time like EB does?

Primary: chargeable, boosted version of Fireball. The non-self-damaging Ogris you always wanted.
Secondary: wide-angle flamethrower effect
Melee: works normally, but has bonus Heat damage in the form of her weapontrails persisting in the air for ~15 seconds and dealing Heat to anything that encounters them. Channeled strikes carry a guaranteed Heat proc.
Blocking restores energy based on the damage blocked; less than the cost of channel-blocking that same damage.
Running and parkour speed are boosted by a power stat.
Bulletjumps have a Hulked-out version of Firewalker applied (which stacks with current bulletjump mods for combined-elemental damage?!).

Now that you mention it, it is like a non-archwing razorwing. The phoenix proposal (assuming you meant the one in the OP) I don't really like, because it requires you to abandon ember, which doesn't appear to be invincible during the cast, meaning that any AoE attack or stray bullets could kill Ember in the meanwhile. Also, it uses Archwing controls, which many, many players (including myself, given an environment with strict up-down orientations like non AW levels and corpus AW levels) have a strong aversion to.

Drain over time sounds good. I was thinking a very slow drain over time, with raises in energy consumption during attacks, making the frame a TRUE alternative to gunplay, instead of just a supplement. Eat your heart out, Volt.

Primary: Oh yes. Didn't even think about chargeable. Any effect on zoom? I had the concentrated beam of fire when zoomed in.

Secondary: Sounds good.

Melee: I'm still a little attached to the "flame punch" idea. If not though, the suggestion looks fine, though Blocking looks a little too strong.

Movement related: Also, maybe a trail of flame left by aim glide.

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

That seems like the standard exalted weapon formula. This gives me an interesting idea, though:

The 25-energy cost is per reload. You can freely swap away from the Shuriken, and use all of your normal weapons. Pressing 1 again will instantly (no time delay or animation) give you your Shuriken clip at its last level of ammo for no energy cost.
The weapon itself is a pretty standard throwing weapon, maybe a little above-average in stats but nothing huge... but it has a side-buff like guaranteed slash procs or homing.

That seems pretty balanced to me.

Exalted weapon would not have an ammo count or lack a constant energy drain though, so I hesitate to call the suggestion an exalted weapon.

Guaranteed slash procs looks like a great aspect to add, though definitely NOT homing. I have a feeling it would end up like Psychic Bolts' homing, going every which way, just...ugh.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Endless_Destruction
Spelling

[--Q--uaint]

10 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

it uses Archwing controls

It would be Sharkwing, I'm pretty sure. That suggestion was written before barfwing came out.

11 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

I was thinking a very slow drain over time, with raises in energy consumption during attacks, making the frame a TRUE alternative to gunplay, instead of just a supplement.

.....so exactly like EB.

12 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Eat your heart out, Volt.

Hey, that's mean :x

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

I had the concentrated beam of fire when zoomed in.

Fire beam could be on the secondary, Phage-style.

14 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Melee: I'm still a little attached to the "flame punch" idea. If not though, the suggestion looks fine

Giving Ember an exalted melee has all the problems that comes with exalted melees. If she just boosts up her melee a bit, she gets many of the benefits with none of the drawbacks :V

While it would be endlessly amusing to be able to Falcon Punch things... we don't really need yet another exalted melee. EB and Hysteria have unique aspects that make them "exalted" above other melees. Fire+punching wouldn't really have that.
Besides, if you're attached to the idea, just run Kogake/Furax with Heat modding and have fire punches with real damage and flame trails.
Which means less animation work for DE, which is a Good Thing^TM

20 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Movement related: Also, maybe a trail of flame left by aim glide.

Trails of flame are Nezha's thing.

21 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Exalted weapon would not have an ammo count or lack a constant energy drain though, so I hesitate to call the suggestion an exalted weapon.

Artemis Bow.

21 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

though definitely NOT homing. I have a feeling it would end up like Psychic Bolts' homing, going every which way, just...ugh.

Shuriken's homing is actually really good.

[Endless_Destruction]

2 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

It would be Sharkwing, I'm pretty sure. That suggestion was written before barfwing came out.

Old archwing controls were less nauseating, but could hardly be considered actually good. Sharkwing itself is really slow, as if we swim through molasses. But this is digression.

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

.....so exactly like EB.

What? I though EB's attacks didn't add to energy consumption unless you channeled at the same time. Couldn't find it in the wiki either, please correct me if I'm still wrong.

11 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Hey, that's mean :x

Well, Volt better alter his description then, the current one is a misleading travesty. He has the spirit of a politician.

6 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Fire beam could be on the secondary, Phage-style.

Giving Ember an exalted melee has all the problems that comes with exalted melees. If she just boosts up her melee a bit, she gets many of the benefits with none of the drawbacks :V

While it would be endlessly amusing to be able to Falcon Punch things... we don't really need yet another exalted melee. EB and Hysteria have unique aspects that make them "exalted" above other melees. Fire+punching wouldn't really have that.
Besides, if you're attached to the idea, just run Kogake/Furax with Heat modding and have fire punches with real damage and flame trails.
Which means less animation work for DE, which is a Good Thing^TM

Sounds good for the secondary.

I see what you mean, and mostly agree. So here, I'm just arguing for the sake of it: think of it not as an exalted weapon, but as a melee gimmick attacked to an exalted frame. I'm not suggesting giving it a lot of power, nor its own stance or even a melee mode (no hold "F"). Just a giant, giant boxing glove made of flames, when "E" is tapped.

14 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Trails of flame are Nezha's thing.

Then why have trails of frame on melee weapon strikes? IMO, boosted heat damage and the visual effect of the weapon on fire is plenty. Also, Nezha totally just stole his Fire Walker idea from ember and/or the mod in the first place. Guess the new solar system is a paradise where copyright law doesn't exist.

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Artemis Bow.

Technically doesn't have an ammo count! I suppose the "energy amount serves as an ammo limit" argument could work, but that sounds more like piddling semantics than anything.

18 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Shuriken's homing is actually really good.

I'll take your word for it, but a scarred Nyx user has his reservations. Never again touching that power. Never again.

[--Q--uaint]

40 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

What? I though EB's attacks didn't add to energy consumption unless you channeled at the same time. Couldn't find it in the wiki either, please correct me if I'm still wrong.

Channeling does cost more, and slide attacks cost (I think?) 1/2 of Radial Blind's cost.

41 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Well, Volt better alter his description then, the current one is a misleading travesty. He has the spirit of a politician.

Volt had nothing to do with the making of his decision. He is what he is. The fact that DE doesn't know what he is ain't his fault.

43 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

I see what you mean, and mostly agree. So here, I'm just arguing for the sake of it: think of it not as an exalted weapon, but as a melee gimmick attacked to an exalted frame. I'm not suggesting giving it a lot of power, nor its own stance or even a melee mode (no hold "F"). Just a giant, giant boxing glove made of flames, when "E" is tapped.

Actually, I'm warming up to the idea. Make it replace quick-melee. Give it a huge firey hitbox, and Blast Sonicor results.

This gives you what you want, me what I want, and forces people to equip their melee if they want to coat entire rooms in flametrails.

44 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Then why have trails of frame on melee weapon strikes?

It's very different from trails of flame from walking. Nezha is kind of like "You follow me, you get burned", while Ember is saying "Imma cut you, and then I'm gonna burn you."

46 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

IMO, boosted heat damage and the visual effect of the weapon on fire is plenty.

Making it just a fire-version of Toxic Lash seems silly, IMO.

48 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Also, Nezha totally just stole his Fire Walker idea from ember and/or the mod in the first place.

Nezha had his own inspirations for doing so, though.

48 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Guess the new solar system is a paradise where copyright law doesn't exist.

kek

49 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Technically doesn't have an ammo count! I suppose the "energy amount serves as an ammo limit" argument could work, but that sounds more like piddling semantics than anything

Bows also don't have an ammo count. The point is, both weapons get a full clip of their use from one energy cost, with no ongoing drain. Bow clips just consist of one shot.

50 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

I'll take your word for it, but a scarred Nyx user has his reservations. Never again touching that power. Never again.

Notice how no one else is complaining that Shuriken's bad because it misses. You don't have to take just my word for it.

Psychic Bolts is definitely... uhm... "special."

[Endless_Destruction]

43 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Channeling does cost more, and slide attacks cost (I think?) 1/2 of Radial Blind's cost.

Volt had nothing to do with the making of his decision. He is what he is. The fact that DE doesn't know what he is ain't his fault.

Actually, I'm warming up to the idea. Make it replace quick-melee. Give it a huge firey hitbox, and Blast Sonicor results.

This gives you what you want, me what I want, and forces people to equip their melee if they want to coat entire rooms in flametrails.

It's very different from trails of flame from walking. Nezha is kind of like "You follow me, you get burned", while Ember is saying "Imma cut you, and then I'm gonna burn you."

Making it just a fire-version of Toxic Lash seems silly, IMO.

Nezha had his own inspirations for doing so, though.

kek

Bows also don't have an ammo count. The point is, both weapons get a full clip of their use from one energy cost, with no ongoing drain. Bow clips just consist of one shot.

Notice how no one else is complaining that Shuriken's bad because it misses. You don't have to take just my word for it.

Psychic Bolts is definitely... uhm... "special."

Too lazy to quote separately, will just go line by line.

1. Both correct. My point was, aside from those, attacking doesn't increase the energy consumption.

2. DE should really change that description, in hindsight it was quite misleading for me and my brother when we were picking a starter frame. Brother took Volt, and we spent a lot of time bumbling around trying to figure out why he couldn't kill things. Turns out there's this thing called "energy."

3, 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tBqdKGiqnI

9. Going to abandon the exalted/non-exalted thing. So then, I said that the number of summoned Shurikens should be based off power strength, and scale off secondary mods, but it occurred to me that multishot might screw things up a bit. I think it would be better to have its damage affected by power strength, with the amount of summons being fixed.

10. Just because no one has complained (yet) doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a problem, but anyway, you've convinced me this won't be a problem.

[Archwizard]

On 11/30/2016 at 4:56 PM, Endless_Destruction said:

Ember idea that is really out there, but here goes:

1. Fireball-Completely removed. Accelerant takes its place. It makes sense to me, because it is a "preparatory" move, a support for fire damage that comes later.
2. Fire Blast- Now a #2 power. Its current blast away and the remaining (underwhelming) ring of fire don't feel powerful as a 3.
3. 3rd power slot holds a not-nearly-as-strong World on Fire, possibly taking on characteristics mentioned in the thread, but with lowered base damage.
4. Ultimate is a rework of Fireball, name pending: Ember holsters her weapons, and goes bare handed, spawning a fire ball in each fist. Quick melee allows her to deliver a flame punch, while LMB throws an empowered version of the current fireball. RMB+LMB delivers a continuous, linear flame blast, possibly with some AoE damage on impact. The idea is a flame-mage-themed, interactive ultimate. It strikes me as a really cool idea for ember to completely throw herself into her element.

So... you'd level Ember and be stuck with only an ability that is completely useless until you get Fire Blast.

... nooooo...

On 11/30/2016 at 4:56 PM, Endless_Destruction said:

Ash idea for Shuriken

1. Have it be a "semi-exalted" weapon-it acts as a throwing secondary weapon, replacing your own, scaling off secondary mods, and working as an additional BS marking tool, only it adds all 3 marks at once for free (only energy cost is that of Shuriken throw), if in BS marking mode. If not, it is just a nice source of additional damage.
2. It will consume energy based on throw.
3. The shurikens can have punchthrough, allowing it to be an efficient marking tool, should the user choose to wield it so.

I'm not sure what's "semi-exalted" about that. Either it's a sidearm version of Artemis Bow, or it isn't.

Too much for a rank 1 power as it stands. It would need far more limitations to pull off successfully.

On 11/30/2016 at 6:20 PM, Buzkyl said:

I've been playing with this idea of a slight zephyr tweak in my head. She's not a bad frame but is very outdated and can use some sprucing up to our new Parkour system.

Zephyr

Passive Change- While in the air, Zephyr attacks do 30% more damage. (Her old passive will be merged into the new Tailwind)

Tailwind- Zephyr empowers her movement with the powers of the wind. Granting her increased agility and decreased gravity.

While toggled this ability while active will grant zephyr:

• Decrease Gravity due to her manipulation of air currents around her
• Heavily increased turning control during aimglide
• Increase in Bullet Jump length and double jump height.

If an enemy is killed while she's in the air with this skilled active, Zephyr will gain 1 Bullet Jump and a small % to regain 1 double jump as well. Kills while airborne will also replenish 20% of her total aimglide duration.

The skills boosts zephyr main aspects of mobility and allows her to stay in the air longer, it also allows her to remain in the air to benefit off her new passive. It also

Considerations

• Bulletjump length and and double jump height can be affected by strength mods but negative power strength will not drop them below base warframe values. This is to prevent zephyr from have a 1M Bulletjump on range builds.
• Effect radius of Jumps  can be affected by range mods.
• Turning increase, decrease gravity and aimglide restoration  i'm not sure should or shouldn't be affected by mods
• Bonus Bullet Jumps and double jumps should be displayed by a counter. For balance reasons, should probably have a static cap value (10 for each?)

Possible as a replacement for Dive Bomb, but I don't think this would make a fitting first power. First powers are intended to be cheap, universally applicable sources of instant gratification, things anyone can find a use for the instant they pick the frame up: a projectile, a minor damage buff, a dash attack. This is more of a technical skill intended to encourage or enhance a specific playstyle.

[Buzkyl]

5 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Possible as a replacement for Dive Bomb, but I don't think this would make a fitting first power. First powers are intended to be cheap, universally applicable sources of instant gratification, things anyone can find a use for the instant they pick the frame up: a projectile, a minor damage buff, a dash attack. This is more of a technical skill intended to encourage or enhance a specific playstyle.

Not all the time, it's a pattern not a rule. First powers such as Equinox Metamorphosis, Nyx's MC and Limbo's Banish don't follow that rule. They are just that, first skills thier placement within the kit vary depending on the frame. Metamorphosis is fundamental to Equinox role as a frame and it's her first skill, she gains nothing out of it other than depreciating self buffs and an access to a skillset she has yet to unlocked (assuming starting at zero).

Likewise Limbo's Banish Banishes enemies to a realm he can't enter until he learns riftwalk.

The proposal tailwind idn't meant to be a first power but to be the basis of Zephyr's air dominance.

[Archwizard]

4 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

First powers such as Equinox Metamorphosis, Nyx's MC and Limbo's Banish don't follow that rule

The rule is "cheap, universally applicable sources of instant gratification [that] anyone can find a use for the instant they pick the frame up". Strong stand-alone, single-target crowd controls like MC and Banish definitely count as both universally applicable and instantly gratifying to their caster.

Plus, until those frames pick up the rest of their kits, Banish is still a damage effect and Metamorphosis includes a minor damage buff expressly to justify being her first power - otherwise it absolutely would be something no one could justify giving her as an active cast, since any later in the kit and that's half her kit missing as she levels.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

since any later in the kit and that's half her kit missing as she levels.

but Warframes find themselves unable to have their set of Tools ready to use until like, Lv28 where all of your Abilities finally have their normally intended stats. yno, the stats they're balanced around?
(you know what i mean by balanced)

once upon a time, Players didn't need to accrue 900,000XP to be given the 'sacred privilege' of being allowed to begin to understand how the Abilities on a Warframe work.

[RunningTree3]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

The rule is "cheap, universally applicable sources of instant gratification [that] anyone can find a use for the instant they pick the frame up". Strong stand-alone, single-target crowd controls like MC and Banish definitely count as both universally applicable and instantly gratifying to their caster.

Plus, until those frames pick up the rest of their kits, Banish is still a damage effect and Metamorphosis includes a minor damage buff expressly to justify being her first power - otherwise it absolutely would be something no one could justify giving her as an active cast, since any later in the kit and that's half her kit missing as she levels.

Loki's Decoy. Mesa's Ballistic Battery.

While I have no opinion on the matter of whether or not the first ability slot should or should not be a particular thing, I find that these counter-arguments are just being selective, and this 'rule' seems to sometimes apply and sometimes not. I see in the OP that Ballistic Battery has a suggestion for more 'universality' by charging from melee as well -- yet will still rely on having to use a ranged weapon to buff, and delayed gratification as well. In Endless_Destruction's offering, until [Ember] pick up the rest of [her] kit, Accelerant is still a functional CC is it not? In Buzkyl's offering, how is giving Zephyr increased air mobility, essentially a form of evasion, that much different from Loki putting down a Decoy to evade enemy fire, or a thematic buff ala Ballistic Battery?

Edited December 7, 2016 by RunningTree3
nvm Cant remove random strikethrough

[Archwizard]

24 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but Warframes find themselves unable to have their set of Tools ready to use until like, Lv28 where all of your Abilities finally have their normally intended stats. yno, the stats they're balanced around?
(you know what i mean by balanced)

once upon a time, Players didn't need to accrue 900,000XP to be given the 'sacred privilege' of being allowed to begin to understand how the Abilities on a Warframe work.

Depends on the frame. Limbo for instance mostly just loses Duration, given how vestigial the other stats are to... well, most builds.

You mean the age when people had 4 ability mod slots on their Warframe, half of which they'd forma away because they had no intention of using all abilities anyway? (For instance... your icon.)

19 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

Loki's Decoy. Mesa's Ballistic Battery.

While I have no opinion on the matter of whether or not the first ability slot should or should not be a particular thing, I find that these counter-arguments are just being selective, and this 'rule' seems to sometimes apply and sometimes not. I see in the OP that Ballistic Battery has a suggestion for more 'universality' by charging from melee as well -- yet will still rely on having to use a ranged weapon to buff, and delayed gratification as well. In Endless_Destruction's offering, until [Ember] pick up the rest of [her] kit, Accelerant is still a functional CC is it not? In Buzkyl's offering, how is giving Zephyr increased air mobility, essentially a form of evasion, that much different from Loki putting down a Decoy to evade enemy fire, or a thematic buff ala Ballistic Battery?

Loki's a unique case - his kit expressly runs against instant gratification, as part of their "advanced players" tagline for him. I know more players who quit over having picked up Loki as their starter than over any other starter frame, expressly because of the defiance of the 'rule'. The first ability you get from a frame is its introduction, its first impression - and people make long-lasting judgments based on their first impression.

As for Ballistic Battery still requiring a firearm... Mesa's still the gunslinger, no? She should be wielding a gun right out of the box, and you really are missing the point of her if you got rid of it. Adding in melee charging is simply to accelerate that gratification.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

19 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

You mean the age when people had 4 ability mod slots on their Warframe

did Ability Mods and Abilities for not new Players having to passively Level even come hand in hand? i don't remember.

either way, two different problems there, and the problem i mentioned, is not a necessity, nor does it provide any tangible benefit (reduced Damage/Strength Effects can help make it easier to see what an Ability does, but having almost all of the Duration/Range/anythingotherthanDamage being basically not present makes most Abilities nearly useless until Ranked up). just the usual decades old RPG tropes. some of those tropes are good. but the Industry also does a bad job realizing which ones of those are bad...

[RunningTree3]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

As for Ballistic Battery still requiring a firearm... Mesa's still the gunslinger, no? She should be wielding a gun right out of the box, and you really are missing the point of her if you got rid of it. Adding in melee charging is simply to accelerate that gratification.

Apologies if this was unclear. I was following the logic of the counter argument on Accelerant being completely useless until a damage-dealing ability unlocks. Of course it is; it needs heat weapons to work because it is Ember's theme. Just like Ballistic Battery needs ranged weapons to deploy. Just like Metamorphosis won't deal any damage in Day Form without any weapons at all. I am simply defending the idea that Accelerant or TailWind-as-buff-ability in the first slot might not be as out of place as it seems.

All that said, probably for the 'tradition' of the fire mage, Fire Ball as a first is so appropriate (and meets that criteria of instant grat too!). I might just link this recent thread here regarding Ember for your consideration: 

 

[Endless_Destruction]

In the discussion following my offering, ChronoEclipse suggested Accelerant remain where it is, and Fire blast become the number 1 power. It has instant gratification, can be made cheaper, and is universally applicable. Suggesting Accerlerant be number 1 was unwise, but that wasn't really the point of my suggestion.

The point of my offering was to get rid of World on Fire as an uninteresting Ult, and it occurred to me to make Fireball a sort of Ult--packaged within the Fire-Mage Frame Ult.

EDIT: Apparently WoF being a boring, annoying Ult is really a pressing issue, as of right now, the thread below this one is called "I loathe Ember," and it is basically another WoF rant.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Endless_Destruction

[RunningTree3]

On 12/7/2016 at 11:40 PM, Endless_Destruction said:

In the discussion following my offering, ChronoEclipse suggested Accelerant remain where it is, and Fire blast become the number 1 power. It has instant gratification, can be made cheaper, and is universally applicable. Suggesting Accerlerant be number 1 was unwise, but that wasn't really the point of my suggestion.

The point of my offering was to get rid of World on Fire as an uninteresting Ult, and it occurred to me to make Fireball a sort of Ult--packaged within the Fire-Mage Frame Ult.

EDIT: Apparently WoF being a boring, annoying Ult is really a pressing issue, as of right now, the thread below this one is called "I loathe Ember," and it is basically another WoF rant.

Thanks for clarifying this :)

I feel that the only reason to keep WoF is that it dearly references the Inkspots song. In Ember's case: "I do want to set the world on fire"

Right now, I think that the overheating effect in Ship Sabotage missions is currently the closest in-game reflection of Ember's description to "super-heat the air"

I also like Archwizard's thought about empowering Heat status effects.

So with this, an offering:

Firstly,

0. Fireball now has combo-casting. The 2nd and 3rd consecutive casts within a short window are 2x/4x more energy efficient, and deal 2x/4x more damage. (ie. the 3rd strike hits at 1200 Heat for ~6 energy)

Now, WoF,

1. Lower and lose the variable fire-rate. No more spam-lock flaming a mob into oblivion. e.g. Ground flames now strikes a maximum once per second, one random mob at a time -- not modifiable. Preserving this aspect at all is primarily to maintain Firequake (see below).

2. No longer has the same high status chance. e.g. From 60% lowered to 10%.

Fireball and Fire Blast is now the way to apply guaranteed procs, with Fireball for concentrating high damage.

3. Now superheats the entire area in range.
- All Heat status effects are 2x stronger (just the proc damage ticks, so instead of 50% of the base damage that caused the proc as per standard, it is 100% per tick -- similar to Ash's passive?). This also affects the procs guaranteed by Fireball and Fire Blast, encouraging their use in combo with WoF.
- Enemies killed by Heat damage inside WoF explode, dealing a % of their max health in a small AoE (ala Combustion Beam, but Acid Shell style scaling)

This would affect all of Ember's abilities and Heat damage weapons, also benefits allies, and is different enough from Accelerant (which deals with direct Heat damage)

Firequake: Continues to maintain the knockdown effect. To make up for a reduced WoF strike rate, instead of just knocking over a single target, Firequake now has a small AoE, affecting enemies around the target as well.

-

Edited December 9, 2016 by RunningTree3
spelling & clarity

[Buzkyl]

16 hours ago, Archwizard said:

The rule is "cheap, universally applicable sources of instant gratification [that] anyone can find a use for the instant they pick the frame up". Strong stand-alone, single-target crowd controls like MC and Banish definitely count as both universally applicable and instantly gratifying to their caster.

Plus, until those frames pick up the rest of their kits, Banish is still a damage effect and Metamorphosis includes a minor damage buff expressly to justify being her first power - otherwise it absolutely would be something no one could justify giving her as an active cast, since any later in the kit and that's half her kit missing as she levels.

The proposed tailwind is not any less more "instant" than the decaying damage buff from Metamorphosis, They both are self buffs, where one affects weapon damage and the other affects parkour. The damage buff however is only limited to 1  half of equinox ,  for a limited amount of time vs Tailwind which will remain active as long as Zephyr has energy to sustain it. Parkour is universal and the "instant" gratification is seen the moment the player jumps as tailwind affects those as well.

There isn't any "rule" at work here, 1st abilities have varying degree's of utility and roles in a frame's kit. If there are any rules DE has been bending it at their choosing.

[Archwizard]

On 12/7/2016 at 1:34 PM, Buzkyl said:

The proposed tailwind is not any less more "instant" than the decaying damage buff from Metamorphosis, They both are self buffs, where one affects weapon damage and the other affects parkour. The damage buff however is only limited to 1  half of equinox ,  for a limited amount of time vs Tailwind which will remain active as long as Zephyr has energy to sustain it. Parkour is universal and the "instant" gratification is seen the moment the player jumps as tailwind affects those as well.

There isn't any "rule" at work here, 1st abilities have varying degree's of utility and roles in a frame's kit. If there are any rules DE has been bending it at their choosing.

I feel like Metamorphosis was a bad choice for counterargument. If it was a case where Metamorphosis had to build up its effect like Vex Armor I might agree, but it literally frontloads the effect for instant benefit and then pulls it down over time.
_{^{Not to mention the instant gratification of having a whole new pool of abilities at your disposal, especially with the OP listing the ability to have them carry over with the transition...}}

I'm not against your ability proposal itself, I just don't think it fits in the 1 slot. It has an awfully high complexity and skill requirement for the first ability someone picks up, and only benefits player mobility rather than combat utility (benefiting from kill count is not the same). It's more of a 2 or 3-slot skill, not a 1. 
There's nothing to say she couldn't have both that effect in the 2 slot and then another skill in her 1 slot (like a projectile to solidify her air support functionality, or a trailing effect to booby-trap the air like in the OP).

Edited December 9, 2016 by Archwizard

[Buzkyl]

Bringing up the Limbo changes Mentioned in Desvtream 84

what's confirmed

• Limbo entering the rift will be moved from his powerset and will instead be changed to his passive which will turn his "roll" into a short teleport the brings him into and out of the rift. It will have it's own animation overhaul and effects.

What's being experimented on (not confirmed but they were still mentioned)

• Limbo focuses on battlefield control-Inspired by the popular mannequin challenge, Limbo could be able to slow or "stop" the Rift and Enemies in it.

 

The passive is really nice and free's up Rift walk to be a completely new ability. It's likely his skillset is going to remain as is but will receive drastic changes due to his new passive

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Buzkyl

[Blakrana]

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Limbo entering the rift will be moved from his powerset and will instead be changed to his passive which will turn his "roll" into a short teleport the brings him into and out of the rift. It will have it's own animation overhaul and effects

This alone is a big gamechanger should they get it right. In the right hands I can already see people turning Parkour feats into a way to essentially 'ghost' around obstacles, return to real space to hurt something, then just Rift-shift to elude some big nasty before it can squash him. Probably a level of balance between there, but the image is still pretty cool in my head.

Also helps drive home the fact that Limbo is a master of the Rift.

Wonder what will replace Rift Walk, but not minding it being freed up honestly.

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Limbo focuses on battlefield control-Inspired by the popular mannequin challenge, Limbo could be able to slow or "stop" the Rift and Enemies in it.

This could prove...interesting.

For enemies, this could mean you Banish a priority target and just...lock them down whilst you deal with the fodder, or force a wave to be staggered more as you've essentially locked things down. And if the 'stop' effect behaves like Nyx's Mind Control...admit it, it would be cool to banish a bunch of big targets, assassinate them and then just...tip your hat as their bodies fall down. Alas, perhaps not practical but it is at least an interesting thing to consider.

Hell. Just being able to lock off a Rampart by dumping a 'Stop' on whatever's using it would be great.

For allies meanwhile, it could serve as a way to 'Save' someone by perhaps locking their status in that moment, giving an opportunity to regroup before they succumb to the damage or something? Can't necessarily have Limbo literally freezing player's motion, after all...but it would be interesting to see how it goes for support applications. Or maybe for allies, they get a speed up effect, allowing for easier re-positioning?

And this is without the offensive use of locking off an area of incoming shot, then just setting it up so that gets redirected into the enemy. One thing to make your enemies shoot themselves, another to make them shoot themselves multiple times with but one bullet...

Still, we'll just have to see if that factor gets put in. It has a fair bit of potential though if they decide they're going to work with it.

Either way, sorry for going on. Hoping the Limbo changes will prove interesting, one way or the other.

[Buzkyl]

15 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

This alone is a big gamechanger should they get it right. In the right hands I can already see people turning Parkour feats into a way to essentially 'ghost' around obstacles, return to real space to hurt something, then just Rift-shift to elude some big nasty before it can squash him. Probably a level of balance between there, but the image is still pretty cool in my head.

Also helps drive home the fact that Limbo is a master of the Rift.

Wonder what will replace Rift Walk, but not minding it being freed up honestly.

It's likely it will work similar to the Operator Teleport, perhaps turning the roll animation into a dash with a blink effect at the start at end point to give the effect of a teleport. However that means potentially limbo can never run out of energy as he can always enter the rift to recharge. Even under the Eximus Sroties Limbo can always generate energy.

19 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

-Responding to second part, snip for space-

Could be possible that shots fired into cataclysm from outside during timestop are frozen in space, when the Rift is closed the shots are taken with it. When it is re-opened the damage is dealt to all enemies within. Allow limbo to absorb damage to charge a potential nuke on his next cataclysm cast. Could go a step further that allies within rift have thier status frozen in time while within the rift.

We've had slows, freezing enemies but never a "stop" feature on a frame. It opens up alot of possibilities.

 

[taiiat]

it'll bomb because it means Limbo is heavily restricted on using Parkour in order to control what state he's in.
drastically lowers Skill Ceiling on Limbo, while raising Skill Floor a little bit.

good for the Abilities, bad for everything else. choosing between movement in this game (one of, yno, the bulleted on the cover features), and control over Abilities.

[Buzkyl]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it'll bomb because it means Limbo is heavily restricted on using Parkour in order to control what state he's in.
drastically lowers Skill Ceiling on Limbo, while raising Skill Floor a little bit.

good for the Abilities, bad for everything else. choosing between movement in this game (one of, yno, the bulleted on the cover features), and control over Abilities.

If you don't like it you're free to suggest an alternate change, but saying it's going to bomb doesn't bring us any progress.

Players are still going be able to parkour and roll, it's not like that's getting removed, his roll is just gaining a new function.

[taiiat]

23 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Players are still going be able to parkour and roll, it's not like that's getting removed, his roll is just gaining a new function.

yeah, but using Roll as a part of Movement means you'll be constantly flickering in and out of Rift?
:/

while it's maybe not the ideal(ideal is have 5 Abilities), Riftwalk and Banish being merged works without breaking Movement(and breaking Movement definitely is far from the ideal). so long as Hold is Banish and tap Rift Walk, so that Limbo doesn't lose reaction time.

[Archwizard]

What I'm most interested in from that announcement, is the statement that they were going to free up Limbo's ability to move in and out of the Rift from his abilities.

Does this mean a fairly conservative rework pertaining only to Limbo himself, using this opportunity just to drop Rift Walk and replace it with a Rift Stop?
Or does it mean a more extensive look into how Limbo brings anything into the Rift - for instance, replacing Banish and Cataclysm with a "contact" method of moving enemies and players in and out? Just how many abilities can we expect to be replaced?

Further, what does this mean for the stats of his passive? Will moving Rift Walk to his passive allow him an infinite duration while Rift Walking, at no cost - or is it going to become a fifth ability with its own upkeep? What about the energy generation while he's in the Rift? Will the teleport aspect have a static "Blink" range?

And most importantly, with Limbo's Rift availability being solely passive, what does it mean for Rift Surge? Will they take feedback to heart, that the ability is useless outside of the Rift? Or will the new passive serve as sole justification to keep it as a separate ability, now that its effective cost has no difference from its immediate activation cost?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Archwizard

[Aquasurge]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

yeah, but using Roll as a part of Movement means you'll be constantly flickering in and out of Rift?
:/

while it's maybe not the ideal(ideal is have 5 Abilities), Riftwalk and Banish being merged works without breaking Movement(and breaking Movement definitely is far from the ideal). so long as Hold is Banish and tap Rift Walk, so that Limbo doesn't lose reaction time.

As far as i am aware it won't be difficult if they manage to somehow separate rolling from self-banishing using the same key. I mean double tapping the evasion key and tapping the evasion key once (at least on pc using shift, console I believe should have a similar scenario) does the same thing. Sure, it might be hard to control and slightly annoying if done wrong but if implemented right to make undesired effects just a consequence of bad player skill........ then yeah it could work. also i believed i mentioned a similar mechanic in a conversation that occurred earlier in this thread about a short-ranged slash-dash/teleport for Volt's speed - funny how thing re-emerge from the fold isn't it?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Aquasurge