Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

-snip-

ah, but Rift Walk comes with it's ups and downs, but it also isn't designed for games like Dark Souls or Witcher where Enemies come one at a time normally, like being able to ignore few hits is, when Enemies in Warframe come by the droves.

 

and Rift Walk, with it's ups and downs, multitude of facets, as well as tightly synergizing with the rest of the Abilities, means that Limbo has some fantastic tools available at his disposal, even if i think aesthetically the Warframe looks a bit silly.

 

 

so i agree that the concept of personal Survivability is useful, but it should really not only do more than only that (we don't need another Iron Skin, srsly, that Ability is one note enough as it is), but also personal Survivability needs to be something useful in general. something that's focused enough to be unique, but broad enough to be useful in enough situations to warrant casting it.

[Gizogin]

The AoE nuke part of Miasma is a big reason why I don't play Saryn that much. You don't have to take line of sight into account, either, so it's a rather brainless skill to use. She's just not all that interesting to use in a mission, which is unfortunate because I like her design.

 

Miasma should be a lingering cloud.

Either that or change the name.

 

I've been seeing a lot of talk about this recently.  Maybe I'm alone in thinking this (though I suspect not, and it's irrelevant anyway), but I really enjoy Miasma.  It is, bar none, my favorite 4-ability in the entire game, and this is specifically because it's not a lingering cloud of DoT.  After all, WoF does moderate damage over time in an area surrounding Ember, but I have a very low opinion of it.

 

Miasma is powerful.  I'm not talking about damage (though it is no slouch in that department); damage is boring.  What I mean is that, upon casting Miasma, Saryn stops in her tracks.  She drops to a low stance, taking a moment to gather her body close.  Then, she explodes outwards again, and every enemy in sight suddenly and immediately reels back as a powerful blastwave bursts forth.  Maybe they're not staggered for long, but neither is Saryn, leaving her free to blow them back again.  The animation, the way it visually punctuates the flow of battle, and the satisfying abruptness of it just make Miasma tons of fun to use.

 

It's so different from any other frame's ultimate, even those that are mechanically-similar area nukes.  The only ones that come close are Radial Javelin and Cataclysm (the latter of which might draw even with Miasma, were it able to knockdown or stagger enemies on cast), with a passing mention to Stomp.  It's just satisfying, in a visceral way that I cannot adequately explain.

 

Ultimately, this is just personal preference.  You could argue that it doesn't fit with Saryn's theme; I'd probably even agree.  I'd just really hate to see it go.

[Azamagon]

That said, Venom Shroud sounds pretty weak to me; it only stops one attack per enemy, which doesn't help much when you're facing off against legions of enemies with automatic/burst-fire weapons. Plus you're only protected while you're attacking (as most of the survivability comes from the lifesteal), which only helps if you're running head-first into an enemy, severely limiting the utility aspects of it. Furthermore, it wouldn't really synergize well with Molt - the Molt can't melee, and therefore can't use most of the ability's effects.

 

Hold up a little there:

* Only stops an attack per enemy? That might be weak against smallfry yes, but consider the useages against nullifying the attacks of heavy hitting enemies + the fact that the attacker will be paralyzed for, say, 4 or 5 seconds or so. That's useful regardless of who the attacker is. And by just being attacked. Is that really weak??

* Molt can't attack no, that's true, but it will be attacked = it will paralyze a whole bunch of enemies when it has copied Venom Shroud.

* Lifesteal should never be underestimated, considering Saryn has decently high health and armor too.

* It still boosts your melee damage with the Toxin boost, so it's still gonna have offensive use too.

* Molt can help distract and close the distance, my Miasma suggestion helps even further with the line of sight blocking. She is a mid/close range fighter after all, so adding Venom Shroud to that mix would just really fit the kit!

 

Consider it to also be a groupbuff (á la Roar/Speed etc) and it turns mighty useful for team survival, no?

 

-snip-

Who says the cast animation and the blastwave has to go? The lingering cloud can be added on top of that! :)

Edited November 8, 2014 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

* Only stops an attack per enemy? That might be weak against smallfry yes, but consider the useages against nullifying the attacks of heavy hitting enemies + the fact that the attacker will be paralyzed for, say, 4 or 5 seconds or so. That's useful regardless of who the attacker is. And by just being attacked. Is that really weak??

 

 

Who says the cast animation and the blastwave has to go? The lingering cloud can be added on top of that! :)

- i feel like by the time stopping a single or a few attacks is really useful, Enemies will be at the Level where you'll just die anyways.

think of Iron Skin for a moment here. it's Seal Clubbing at low Levels, and then becomes more of a detriment than a boon once Enemies are dealing enough Damage to you often enough that being able to mitigate it doesn't matter anymore.

as an extreme example, a ~lv35 Seeker can almost kill Trinity with two shots even while you have Link active. using Seekers as an example is certainly extreme but the point remains, as that can represent Enemies of higher Levels elsewhere. basically, by the time stopping a few attacks feels useful, you'll also be dead right after the Ability 'runs out' anyways. or if not dead, just back to taking Damage as you were without it.

 

 

- indeed, those Effects and Casting Animation don't need to disappear. i think the Casting Animation for Miasma is a bit silly, but i don't have any problem with it.

[Archwizard]

Who says the cast animation and the blastwave has to go? The lingering cloud can be added on top of that! :)

- indeed, those Effects and Casting Animation don't need to disappear. i think the Casting Animation for Miasma is a bit silly, but i don't have any problem with it.

 

I think Gizogin was making more of a point that you can feel the effects of it on the battlefield immediately (or as close to it as you can get with a DoT).

[Gizogin]

I think Gizogin was making more of a point that you can feel the effects of it on the battlefield immediately (or as close to it as you can get with a DoT).

 

Yeah, pretty much this.  It may be a DoT, but the effect itself is (visually) immediate.

 

To Azamagon:  Miasma is already a very powerful ability, able to wipe out pretty much anything on the star chart.  To add even more to it without changing what makes it so powerful would risk taking things too far, while rebalancing it around the additional toxic cloud risks changing what I love so much about it.  I'm not saying it can't be done, but it seems a bit more difficult than you're implying.

[taiiat]

To add even more to it without changing what makes it so powerful would risk taking things too far, while rebalancing it around the additional toxic cloud risks changing what I love so much about it.

Miasma hits all Enemies in Range, dealing some Damage to them, all affected Enemies create an actual Miasma from them and there's your Creeping Death.

 

boom.

[Archwizard]

Miasma hits all Enemies in Range, dealing some Damage to them, all affected Enemies create an actual Miasma from them and there's your Creeping Death.

 

boom.

 

So basically an inverted Molecular Prime, damage first, expanding map entity with CC after. 

Doesn't that basically take MP and make it MORE overpowered?

[taiiat]

So basically an inverted Molecular Prime, damage first, expanding map entity with CC after. 

Doesn't that basically take MP and make it MORE overpowered?

not really. you have some Damage (which would presumably not be a lot), and then creating pockets of creeping death with periodic Stuns / Staggers (which is something that happens from time to time, not guarantees), with some more minor Damage.

 

it'll certainly affect quite a few Enemies theoretically, but there is no constant slowing or Damage multiplying or Chaining, Et Cetera.

 

 

think of the creeping death like an offensive Gas Cloud from Torid. instead of sitting and waiting in a spot, it would slowly expand for a while, ideally(to me) having a mixture of all types of Toxin related Effects (so that's Toxin, Viral, Gas and Corrosive), dealing bits of those Damages with okayish Status Chances for a while.

useful Effects, but only moderate Status Chances on the fairly small bits of Damage, over a moderately long Duration.

[Vaskadar]

I'd rather it emit a lingering AOE effect that dealt corrosive damage and proc'd toxin damage in a large area, and detonate venom spores.

 

I've seen many suggestions on allowing Saryn to cast Venom on her molt, and having it detonate the spores when expiring. It would open up creative use of this particular power.

[Archwizard]

and detonate venom spores.

 

Once again - just make any AoE effect pop them. Not just "have her ultimate do it to synergize" or "have Allure do it to encourage melee". 

Rockets. Fireballs. Molecular Prime. All of them, every effect in the book. It's already in the OP, "more responsive to area-effect attacks".

I swear this is the dozenth time this subject popped up since I added it...

Edited November 8, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

I agree with all your Limbo changes, however about Banish... rather than completely cancel the Banish effect when teammates shoot non-rift entities, could it perhaps be reworked as a toggleable state that other players can control through their actions?

For example:

- Ash gets Banished by Limbo.

- Banish works as a buff on Ash that lasts however long Limbo has modded Power Duration.

- When Ash attacks rift entities, he stays in the rift.

- When Ash attacks non-rift entities, he momentarily phases back to normal plane.

- Ash then phases back to the rift after x seconds or immediately if he attacks a rift-entity.

This way, Limbo doesn't need to micromanage (desperately try to aim at) his fast moving teammates in the heat of battle, and only need to buff them once in a while. Although, the rift graphics should be toned down or it can be seizure-inducing... what do you think?

Edit: also, a way for teammates to kill that Banished target when Limbo doesn't let you would be nice. Maybe like, when a player touches a banished enemy, that player gets the Banish buff as well, so he/she can kill the banished enemy. Though, the buff would end when the banished enemy dies, so Limbo has a reason to use Banish on teammates directly for the full duration.

 

But at that point, you may as well not even have the rift mechanic at all since you could basically just give invulnerability to your whole team whenever they're not doing anything, not even the tradeoff of being unable to hit guys on the other side. The rest of Archs fixes make it so you have to pick one side or the other rather than dancing on the line.

[Gizogin]

So, I just finished building Banshee.  I gather she's intended as a support/mezzer, what with the Sonar and the lack of real direct-damage abilities.  Funnily enough, I found her to be tons of fun as a melee berserker, and playing her has given me yet more insight as to why Contagion is so bad.

 

Silence does everything I'd hoped Contagion would do, allowing Banshee (far from tanky enough to close to melee range normally) to rush in to close range and deal phenomenal damage with Melee.  It does this by briefly stunning any enemy who enters its radius, while said radius moves with Banshee.  

 

Furthermore, it is immediately obvious that Silence is active, that certain enemies are affected by it, and that it muffles sounds.  Unlike Contagion, I never have to consciously remember to use it, because there is a very obvious difference between having it on and not.  Furthermore, I have reason to use it, because it fundamentally improves Banshee's viability in melee in a way that does not rely at all on damage.  The change directly affects the way that I play, while my strategy for melee is exactly the same whether or not I have Contagion active.

 

So, to that end, I am more sure than ever that Contagion must be scrapped altogether.  Allure, as defined in the OP and later, would be much, much better.

[Edeamous]

Honestly, I am 100% behind ALL of these changes. These are magnificent ideas.

[Archwizard]

Furthermore, it is immediately obvious that Silence is active, that certain enemies are affected by it, and that it muffles sounds.  Unlike Contagion, I never have to consciously remember to use it, because there is a very obvious difference between having it on and not.  Furthermore, I have reason to use it, because it fundamentally improves Banshee's viability in melee in a way that does not rely at all on damage.  The change directly affects the way that I play, while my strategy for melee is exactly the same whether or not I have Contagion active.

 

So, to that end, I am more sure than ever that Contagion must be scrapped altogether.  Allure, as defined in the OP and later, would be much, much better.

 

That's basically what compelled me to write up Allure in the first place; every time I played Saryn, I had to actively remind myself to use Contagion whenever I got up close with enemies.

 

Keeping in mind, I'm always looking for ways to throw in Bullet Attractor that won't waste the energy (and yes, I know those are basically limited to bosses or the occasional Grineer heavy), deliberately using Speed to supplement my combo bonus, or maintaining Molecular Prime uptime - and of course, Mirage has two all-purpose damage buffs. Each of these feel incredibly rewarding in terms of damage output and visual flair, shake up your combat style, and even have strong implications on your survivability.

 

By comparison, Contagion is just a bigger number on a melee swing. Woop-de-fricking-doo.

 

Two things make Contagion forgettable: the passivity of its effects (both visually and in-combat), and the limitation to melee weapons. Even if you were to make Contagion apply to the WHOLE party (which would make the Venom augment redundant now), there's no guarantee you'd remember to use it, because the part of your brain that acknowledges it's limited to melee is telling you for 90% of the mission "you can't get anything out of it right now," and trips up whenever you can. Even if you made it apply to all weapons, you still might shy away if you're used to groups with high ability damage (the beauty of Roar, no?).

 

Theoretically, you could probably save it by combining all of these factors and adding some active incentive to remind you to cast the effect, like health or energy (for Charge builds) restoration on a hit... but by that point you're making the ability up to 12x more effective in one patch (presumably without taking away from its base effects, likely making it supremely overpowered), and generally inflating it far beyond an incentive to put just the Saryn in melee.

 

Hence, scrapping it, and picking an ability that got a caster into melee before.

[MechaKnight]

Fully agreed. All of the mentioned changes to Saryn in the opening post are valid changes, and much needed. Between developer intention, implementation, classic archetype staples, player mod meta, and mod cards, all of these clash with each other to create a confusing and often underwhelming kit.

 

 

Once again - just make any AoE effect pop them. Not just "have her ultimate do it to synergize" or "have Allure do it to encourage melee". 

Rockets. Fireballs. Molecular Prime. All of them, every effect in the book. It's already in the OP, "more responsive to area-effect attacks".

I swear this is the dozenth time this subject popped up since I added it...

I do have some confidence in our developers, but just for clarity a small note should be made in the opening post near your Venom suggestion so the developers know it applies to all AoE effects, not just Saryn's.

Edited November 9, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Azamagon]

A little further thought on Ember's Fire Blast and the thought of giving her a mobility instead... why not have BOTH? :D

 

My idea:

 

Fire Blast Icarus Dive - Upon activation, Ember sets herself on fire and travels in the target direction with a speed of 30 meters per second at all levels. Upon activating the ability again, or upon hitting the environment, or upon reaching the maximum distance (25/30/35/40 meters), Ember lets loose a fiery blastwave (graphics like the Arson Eximus' Fire Blast). This no longer leaves a ring of fire though (lingering fire should be Fireball's niche imo). Enemies coming within 2 meters of Ember while she travels are ragdolled with a slight pushback and suffer 50/100/150/200 Heat damage with 100% proc chance. Enemies hit by the blastwave are ragdolled quite a distance away from the explosion and are dealt 150/250/350/500 damage, dealt 50/50 as Blast and Heat (the Heat damage here also with a 100% proc chance). Should still probably cost 75 energy?

Power Strength - Affects damages

Power Range - Affects touch radius and blast radius

Power Duration - Affects maximum travel distance

 

Would that be an ok replacement perhaps?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Azamagon

[ShardsSuperior]

I like your Limbo changes. He's an excellent frame, but requires QoL and anti-trolling measures. You capture that well.

 

Rift Walk, however, makes it so that stray shot would make you accidentally bring an enemy maybe you didn't want to bring into the Void. I think Rift Walk is fine as it is currently.

[taiiat]

Would that be an ok replacement perhaps?

that sounds useful. can't hurt to give Ember a Mobility Ability, and tying it in with the Fire Explosion is more than acceptable.

 

like a Fire based Biotic Charge, minus targeting Enemies.

[Noble_Cactus]

Alright, so I've been thinking a bit about Zephyr's Tornado and how it can be improved. Arch's OP doesn't mention the ability at all, so I'll offer up my own suggestion:

 

Tornado

 

Zephyr spawns four tornadoes like she currently does, and the tornadoes behave mostly like they currently do. However, the following tweaks have been made to how they function:

 

– Enemies sucked into the twisters are trapped inside for its entire duration, or until the target is killed. Tornadoes can contain a maximum of three enemies per twister, perhaps modified by Power Strength and ability level. Dead enemies are ejected from the top of the tornado, which frees up another slot for a potential enemy.

– All items sucked into a tornado will swirl at the base of the twister, much like Vauban's Vortex. 

– All gunfire shot at the tornado – both by Tenno and by enemies – is absorbed by the tornado and split among the enemies trapped inside. I'm thinking each damage entity's damage value would simply be split among the trapped enemies, though I'm open to reworking how the absorbed damage is calculated. These damage sources cannot score headshots on trapped enemies.

– All gunfire shot in a short radius around each tornado is sucked into the twister. This includes rockets and other projectiles, effectively creating a literal windwall between enemy fire and friendly Tenno.

– When tornadoes expire, enemies are flung a short distance away from where they were trapped and must stand back up to continue fighting. All items trapped in the tornado will simply fall to the ground at the point where the tornado dissipated.

– Tornado element mixing remains, even if it's not all that useful except for proccing viral, maybe. They also still provide the same air lift effect that they currently have.

– OPTIONAL: Tornado is now cast like Cataclysm and Tentacle Swarm. The Zephyr player will have to point at the location at which she wants the tornadoes to spawn. 

 

But wait, isn't this basically just Bullet Attractor mixed with Vortex? Kind of, yeah. But it does give Zephyr a much-needed team role with tangible benefits, while also befitting an ultimate ability. Tornado no longer makes enemies harder to kill. Now it makes them easier to kill for Zephyr and her teammates. It also creates a semi-permeable barrier between Zephyr and her enemies, which allows her to create zones of control on the battlefield rather than hoping the tornadoes spawn in a useful spot. And most importantly, the new Tornado doesn't spew loot all over the map. These small quality of life changes could help make Tornado an ability that teammates are glad to see rather than one that makes them put their face in their palms as they think "Bye bye, loot."

 

I'd like feedback on this ability, since I really want to make Zephyr a more engaging and helpful frame to play.

 

A little further thought on Ember's Fire Blast and the thought of giving her a mobility instead... why not have BOTH? :D

 

My idea:

 

Fire Blast Icarus Dive - Upon activation, Ember sets herself on fire and travels in the target direction with a speed of 30 meters per second at all levels. Upon activating the ability again, or upon hitting the environment, or upon reaching the maximum distance (25/30/35/40 meters), Ember lets loose a fiery blastwave (graphics like the Arson Eximus' Fire Blast). This no longer leaves a ring of fire though (lingering fire should be Fireball's niche imo). Enemies coming within 2 meters of Ember while she travels are ragdolled with a slight pushback and suffer 50/100/150/200 Heat damage with 100% proc chance. Enemies hit by the blastwave are ragdolled quite a distance away from the explosion and are dealt 150/250/350/500 damage, dealt 50/50 as Blast and Heat (the Heat damage here also with a 100% proc chance). Should still probably cost 75 energy?

Power Strength - Affects damages

Power Range - Affects touch radius and blast radius

Power Duration - Affects maximum travel distance

 

Would that be an ok replacement perhaps?

 

Not a bad idea. It does remind me a bit of the Vanguard charge like taiiat mentioned, which isn't a bad thing. Though I do feel that Rhino's Charge should already do something like this as it is :x

Edited November 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[EvanTheNewbie]

Does DE have any near plans to work on Nekros? He's been on the back burner for a while, and with DE having their eyes set on Rhino, I'm a bit worried he'll never be addressed.

[MechaKnight]

Does DE have any near plans to work on Nekros? He's been on the back burner for a while, and with DE having their eyes set on Rhino, I'm a bit worried he'll never be addressed.

DE is simply collecting feedback, they probably still have Nekros in mind. It is nice that the developers seem to be taking a higher interest in balance as of recently, but as time goes on sometimes you wonder how long it will take for DE to tackle said objectives on their ever-growing to-do list. All we can do is discuss and give feedback and ideas as DE does things on their schedule.

[Archwizard]

Fire Blast Icarus Dive - Upon activation, Ember sets herself on fire and travels in the target direction with a speed of 30 meters per second at all levels. Upon activating the ability again, or upon hitting the environment, or upon reaching the maximum distance (25/30/35/40 meters), Ember lets loose a fiery blastwave (graphics like the Arson Eximus' Fire Blast). This no longer leaves a ring of fire though (lingering fire should be Fireball's niche imo). Enemies coming within 2 meters of Ember while she travels are ragdolled with a slight pushback and suffer 50/100/150/200 Heat damage with 100% proc chance. Enemies hit by the blastwave are ragdolled quite a distance away from the explosion and are dealt 150/250/350/500 damage, dealt 50/50 as Blast and Heat (the Heat damage here also with a 100% proc chance). Should still probably cost 75 energy?

Power Strength - Affects damages

Power Range - Affects touch radius and blast radius

Power Duration - Affects maximum travel distance

 

Would that be an ok replacement perhaps?

 

Feels like an idea I wrote up a few pages back, actually... 

 

Alternately, it could be a sort of meteor-strike technique just to implement everything -

Toggled skill, Ember rockets toward the target location - "landing" at the first surface or enemy that impedes her - and blows everyone away from her impact point, leaving a ring of flames (status chance not quite 100%). Would give her more mobility AND control in one skill, plus working with World on Fire in-transit.

 

Although I feel the name "Icarus Dive" is too Zephyr-y (and yes, I know the myth well).

 

Perhaps I shall add this to the OP as an alternative to the suggestion for Fire Blast.

[Azamagon]

Feels like an idea I wrote up a few pages back, actually... 

 

 

 

Although I feel the name "Icarus Dive" is too Zephyr-y (and yes, I know the myth well).

 

Perhaps I shall add this to the OP as an alternative to the suggestion for Fire Blast.

Oh, sorry, didn't see that suggestion! At least then we are thinking along the same track when comes to a replacement / upgrade for Fire Blast :)

 

Icarus Dive was just an example, it could be called anything, really. Just thought something along the lines with the names Icarus or Phoenix would be highly fitting, obviously understandable :P

[Archwizard]

Oh, sorry, didn't see that suggestion! At least then we are thinking along the same track when comes to a replacement / upgrade for Fire Blast :)

 

Icarus Dive was just an example, it could be called anything, really. Just thought something along the lines with the names Icarus or Phoenix would be highly fitting, obviously understandable :P

 

Just threw something in the OP along those lines.