Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

• Enemies targeted by Nyx’s Mind Control no longer take friendly damage until the duration of the ability ends, at which point all accumulated damage to the target is applied at once.

 

So I cant say I'm surprised by this, but I felt it was important to point this out from today's update notes.

 

First Oberon, now this, defs reading this thread.

[Archwizard]

So I cant say I'm surprised by this, but I felt it was important to point this out from today's update notes.

 

First Oberon, now this, defs reading this thread.

 

Unfortunately, it's a buff somewhat overshadowed by nerfs.

[MechaKnight]

Unfortunately, it's a buff somewhat overshadowed by nerfs.

I don't think the forums will be silent for a while. It needs testing and time to see if this change is suitable or has to be reverted/redone.

[Archwizard]

Because I can't quote from a locked thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/344505-update-1520/?p=3855810

 

Well, here's hoping that the response does not involve bland justification for the nerfs (especially as we all know why those particular frames were affected), and rather addresses whether they'll revert the nerfs and address the actual issues of Viver farming...

 

In the meantime, I added a link to the OP featuring Onihikage's suggestion for a "Vacuum" replacement on Carrier.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Archwizard

[MagicHamsta]

 

Mirage

- Sleight of Hand causes access panels to explode as soon as the enemy tries to use them, and renders the panel permanently broken; lockers will suck nearby enemies inside for the remainder of the duration, a la Undertow; orbs and ammo packs are converted into proximity mines (and can still be picked up by the caster before exploding), rather than exploding randomly on-cast.

 

That would be terrible.

Sleight of hand -> Panel beaks.....-> Someone busts a window -> No panel to hack, asphyxiate to death.

 

DX

[Archwizard]

That would be terrible.

Sleight of hand -> Panel beaks.....-> Someone busts a window -> No panel to hack, asphyxiate to death.

 

DX

 

I meant more "if the enemy uses it, it'll break", but I changed it in the OP.

[Archwizard]

Sorry to double-post, but I felt I needed to get this down before I forgot.

 

Some of you may have spotted another thread that basically declares Valkyr as the second coming, and while I find the premise to be somewhat obtuse, I find that the conclusions are rather solid - synergy is, after all, the entire basis of this thread.

 

In writing up my response to the thread, I was reminded of a small handful of frames that could perhaps use some extra work.

 

Take for example, Zephyr - she has incredible potential for a kit that would make her a perfect Air Support class, but falls just short of the mark. She flies rather clumsily, and falls too quickly to attack without the need for a perch. She has a skill that compels enemies into the air in a vulnerable state for her to mop up, but makes their exact positions more unpredictable. Her main offensive skill benefits from being over her targets' heads, but also takes her out of her element to use it (this would be forgivable if she was ever really faulted for being in the air too long to start with).

 

Banshee as well - she has two skills that encourage sniping enemies in stoic silence, and even an ability to keep her distance (which is very useful if you're using a sniper rifle... or rocket launcher)... but the kit takes a dive when one reaches her obligatory Press 4.

 

Nekros is sort of my go-to in these cases, as the combat necromancer archetype has always had its own unique potential: the necromancer uses his undead minions as extensions of his offense and defense, opens foes up to minion assaults crippling debuffs, and keeps his minions standing through vampirism, applied fear effects, and the ability to just keep raising them as they fall. No need for nukes, and only a light amount of micromanagement when you're swaming foes over.
Nekros has half of the pieces as obligatory requirements for his name, but even then they don't blend (and are limited by poor implementation). The entirety of his kit is overshadowed by one skill that came completely out of left field anyway. (If I go any further into this one, I'll probably start foaming at the mouth and eat up the whole thread.)

 

Yes, in spite of my long-noted obsession with Nekros, there is always room for improvement in this department. Going forward, I would like to put an extra look into these frames (in addition to what's already in the OP), just to give them more precision towards whatever toolkit they're ideally working toward.

[Noble_Cactus]

Wow, this thread got buried quickly overnight 0_0 Time for a bump.

 

Another poster made a thread about Oberon's Renewal, which is an ability that's been bothering me lately. It has too many unnecessary nuances that I think could be streamlined, especially after it was given a toggle. Here's what I posted in said thread:

 

 

Yeah, the way Renewal works is... baffling, for lack of a better term. The toggle makes no sense on it, and I often end up de-activating the ability when I think it's about to end only to actually recast it because it ended before I could cancel it.

 

How I think Renewal should be reworked:

 

- Oberon casts Renewal. Orbs generate at his location and seek nearby allies.

- Orbs apply a Heal over Time (HoT) that lasts for x amount of seconds. This is modded by duration.

- The HoT heals health over that x amount of seconds, regardless of whether the target is at full health or not. The speed of the health restored - in other words, how much health per second is healed - is determined by power strength.

- If the target is at full health, or if the target reaches full health from the HoT, any debuffs on the target are purged (with an accompanying visual effect) and the HoT keeps healing for the rest of its duration.

- When a target is at full health and is buffed by Renewal (while the HoT ticks), that player gains immunity to debuffs. Yeah, Hallowed Ground alreaedy does this, but perhaps HG could still serve its purpose as a stationary anti-debuff zone while Renewal would allow Oberon to provide additional support from afar. HG could also be reworked to do additional things, but that's a topic for another thread.

- Oberon may recast Renewal once the HoT is up.

 

So to simplify things further, we can say (using completely arbitrary numbers) that an unmodded Renewal lasts for 10 seconds and heals the target for 50 health per second for a total of 500 cumulative health by the time Renewal finishes. If the player falls below max health, they lose the debuff immunity, but will still heal that damage back. They will regain the debuff shield once they are back at full health.

 

Oh, and Renewal still causes the bleedout timer to tick slower.

 

What this does for Renewal is make it a simpler, more effective ability. I just described your basic HoT in an MMORPG. No toggles, no canceling, no inverse scaling with duration, no "this ability stops healing once its target is at full health." Moreover, it gives Oberon's healing role a niche edge over Trinity's Blessing. Blessing is a reactive heal; she predicts when her team is going to take heavy damage, casts it when a teammate is about to die, and instantly pops everyone back up to fighting condition with a small damage buffer to make things easier. The new Renewal, meanwhile, gives Oberon's team a bit of health insurance. It plans for the future by providing a constant HoT that works in the middle of a firefight, unlike the Rejuvenation aura or Blessing.

 

Moreover, it shields teammates from debuffs like DoTs, knockdowns, and the ever-annoying Magnetic debuff for its entire duration. As long as they are at full health, at least. It sacrifices the frontloaded heal of Blessing for more utility and long-term planning, and while Trinity is able to salvage dire situations in an instant, Oberon provides a more sustainable support role for his team that can help prevent those dire situations from happening in the first place. Ultimately, giving Renewal this niche roles helps define him more as a unique support class when compared to the rest of the cast.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/346705-oberons-renewal/

 

Could use a bit of work, but I think it's a hell of a lot simpler than the mess we have now. Maybe the debuff shield would last for the entire duration once the target is fully healed, regardless of whether their health dips or not?

 

-

 

In any case, I think our focus now should be to make sure our suggestions work with the rest of the frame's kit, as proposed by Grilleds' thread. How would my above Renewal fit with the rest of Oberon's abilities? I'm not sure. Maybe Reckoning or Smite could mark its targets with a health leech that allows players to regain health upon damaging the target. The goal here is not to force kit cohesion (i.e., x ability won't work properly without casting y ability first). What we should do is create opportunities for emergent kit cohesion, which is what Valkyr's tools do well.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[MotherofHermes]

Dear Archwizard, 

 

I love what you are doing here. However, I am wondering how much these forums are being listened to due to the lack of transparency that de seems to have lately unless the issue is bug related. The biggest reworks I see called for are ember, necros, saryn. Do we have any way of knowing if DE is taking our feedback seriously other than simply filling the forums with as many "needs a rework threads" as possible? 

 

I do notice (as what happened to oberon) that if enough topics about a subject seem to get started then and only then does a frame or concept get enough attention. What i'm getting at is should the community pool it's efforts and could you be a flag to rally under? I see topic after topic of "frost, rhino, ember, saryn, this, that, other stuff, etc." but if we were (and this will sound almost impossible to pull off) all able to, as a community, yell for a change of a frame one at a time would more get done? If our youtube content creators, forum mods, major forum post makers, and community as a whole all got behind one idea at a time, perhaps more would get done. It seems that large community gathers with a focused effort prompt DE toward action (see Oberon rework and patch 15.2). 

 

Could we work together as a community, decide what we want done. all talk about it at the same time. watch it be fixed. and continue back from the start until the frames were in their rightful place? What would be the best way to have our voices heard? what should we tackle first?

 

There are many frames that need reworks, and DE admits that this game is extremely driven by the community (see last dev stream),  so can we work together to yell with one voice effectively. 

 

In short. I nominate Archwizard as community speaker for the order of frames that need reworked. 

[MechaKnight]

Dear Archwizard, 

 

I love what you are doing here. However, I am wondering how much these forums are being listened to due to the lack of transparency that de seems to have lately unless the issue is bug related. The biggest reworks I see called for are ember, necros, saryn. Do we have any way of knowing if DE is taking our feedback seriously other than simply filling the forums with as many "needs a rework threads" as possible?

 

I did like the concept of your post, and the community has talked about electing community members to speak about key issues that have been in the game for a while. However, the situation is actually as bleak as you've stated, if not more. I myself have maintained a 15 page long thread for a single warframe, not too long after Archwizard started his own. The thread has stood for months speaking for a warframe that has needed changes since August last year and has even been forwarded to [DE]Drew by a moderator, but when Update 15 came around and the situation with the warframe got worse, I realized nearly no amount of feedback at all would get change done unless it was clogging the forums and breaking the game in a way that clearly showed the players were irate. You can still see my thread on the top page of most viewed threads of all time in the section, with Archwizard's featured above it on the same page.

 

It really is all up to DE to create a schedule and choose what to fix in whatever order they please. Nothing will expedite this process except public outcry clogging every forum board simultaneously at a rate the moderators feel stressed over.

 

To go so far as blame DE? No, I wouldn't. They probably have tons of deadlines, protocol, profit margins, planning, testing, and such for new content as well as keeping the game fresh for months ahead of today. They also need to filter and refine our feedback into implementation, then pass this along to the related departments so they can be built, and the mass of changes finally be packaged into a patch.

 

I've done my role in the feedback process and continue to do so. Archwizard's done a fine job with his feedback and suggestions and continues. Attempting to rally the community to simultaneously "yell for a change" is fine so long as you're not overly aggressive towards the development schedule, but it's nobody's job to rally people like this unless they volunteer and the devs agree. It would be easier to simply wait through the mill of feedback you're seeing now. I'm sure it's just as stressful for the developers as it is for the players. Also, moderators are players like you and me so they probably struggle with the feedback process just as much--they get to see feedback they agree with constantly, yet also have to sift through tons of other stuff as they wait like we do.

 

In short, the only thing to do is be patient. There is no better way to deal with the feedback process anywhere, with any company. If the feedback process is wearing you out, taking a short break can help.

Edited November 16, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Azamagon]

-snip-

but it's nobody's job to rally people like this unless they volunteer and the devs agree.

-snip-

 

If it weren't for the fact that I'm a quite busy guy, I'd gladly volunteer if Archwizard didn't want to be in charge, if the devs and community allowed me to do so that is! :D

 

Regardless, good post. I really need to work on being more patient :P

[Archwizard]

Dear Archwizard, 

 

I love what you are doing here. However, I am wondering how much these forums are being listened to due to the lack of transparency that de seems to have lately unless the issue is bug related. The biggest reworks I see called for are ember, necros, saryn. Do we have any way of knowing if DE is taking our feedback seriously other than simply filling the forums with as many "needs a rework threads" as possible? 

 

I do notice (as what happened to oberon) that if enough topics about a subject seem to get started then and only then does a frame or concept get enough attention. What i'm getting at is should the community pool it's efforts and could you be a flag to rally under? I see topic after topic of "frost, rhino, ember, saryn, this, that, other stuff, etc." but if we were (and this will sound almost impossible to pull off) all able to, as a community, yell for a change of a frame one at a time would more get done? If our youtube content creators, forum mods, major forum post makers, and community as a whole all got behind one idea at a time, perhaps more would get done. It seems that large community gathers with a focused effort prompt DE toward action (see Oberon rework and patch 15.2). 

 

Could we work together as a community, decide what we want done. all talk about it at the same time. watch it be fixed. and continue back from the start until the frames were in their rightful place? What would be the best way to have our voices heard? what should we tackle first?

 

There are many frames that need reworks, and DE admits that this game is extremely driven by the community (see last dev stream),  so can we work together to yell with one voice effectively. 

 

In short. I nominate Archwizard as community speaker for the order of frames that need reworked. 

 

While I am flattered by this impromptu nomination, I don't think having any one person from the community decide the order of frame rework priorities would be respectful to the wishes of the entire community, no matter how loud or eloquent their feedback is. 

 

Remember Stalinist Russia? It'd probably end up something like that.

 

For example, if I were in such a position, I would jump on Nekros immediately. This could of course be seen as entirely selfish by a good chunk of the community for not being the same choice as theirs (even though it's entirely pragmatic - while Ember and Saryn are very high on my own priority list, no single frame rework would impact the game more than the removal of Desecrate, and the biggest change should always be addressed first... plus he's been waiting the longest). Other players would argue that Desecrate at least gives him endgame viability compared to someone like Excalibur, or that Limbo's potential for trolling needs to be addressed straightaway. We all have our own priorities on what needs to be reworked now, which will always cause extreme divergence.

 

It's also worth noting that the case of Oberon is somewhat unusual. When first released, most feedback about him was positive until players started to realize he had minimal endgame viability. Feedback on him turned negative after a week or two, then petered out over the course of months by the time the devs addressed him. His became a case more like Banshee's, where his kit was the punchline of forum jokes and the frequently-invoked low standard of comparison during arguments about the positions of other frames.

Compare Nekros, who received nothing but negative feedback toward the initial "Search the Dead", which receives a disappointing amount of praise from grinders to this day.

 

In short, rework priorities are determined by a combination of factors. You begin to notice it's rarely a matter of how loud the initial feedback is on the players' end so much as the notoriety and consistency of claims. The devs have already proven they listen to constructive feedback and suggestions... it's just that their pacing could be found somewhat wanting.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[MechaKnight]

While I am flattered by this impromptu nomination, I don't think having any one person from the community decide the order of frame rework priorities would be respectful to the wishes of the entire community, no matter how loud or eloquent their feedback is. 

 

Remember Stalinist Russia? It'd probably end up something like that.

 

For example, if I were in such a position, I would jump on Nekros immediately. This could of course be seen as entirely selfish by a good chunk of the community for not being the same choice as theirs (even though it's entirely pragmatic - while Ember and Saryn are very high on my own priority list, no single frame rework would impact the game more than the removal of Desecrate, and the biggest change should always be addressed first... plus he's been waiting the longest). Other players would argue that Desecrate at least gives him endgame viability compared to someone like Excalibur, or that Limbo's potential for trolling needs to be addressed straightaway. We all have our own priorities on what needs to be reworked now, which will always cause extreme divergence.

 

It's also worth noting that the case of Oberon is somewhat unusual. When first released, most feedback about him was positive until players started to realize he had minimal endgame viability. Feedback on him turned negative after a week or two, then petered out over the course of months by the time the devs addressed him. His became a case more like Banshee's, where his kit was the punchline of forum jokes and the frequently-invoked low standard of comparison during arguments about the positions of other frames.

Compare Nekros, who received nothing but negative feedback toward the initial "Search the Dead", which receives a disappointing amount of praise from grinders to this day.

 

In short, rework priorities are determined by a combination of factors. You begin to notice it's rarely a matter of how loud the initial feedback is on the players' end so much as the notoriety and consistency of claims. The devs have already proven they listen to constructive feedback and suggestions... it's just that their pacing could be found somewhat wanting.

One must remember that we do have community advocates in [DE]Drew and [DE]Rebecca for speaking for the community, and even their suggestions and feedback collections could be waived to months later to an unknown date. It is especially apparent when Rebecca mentions and issue over livestream, or when one of Drew's polls seem to vanish with no answer for an unknown time.

 

It would be nice if there was anyone in contact with the players who made such large decisions so it wouldn't come as a surprise to us as to what is changing and when, however the simple truth is that only the head directors of development have the power to call shots as to what is done and when.

 

It is true that notoriety is the reigning factor in content changes. Oberon saw an unnatural level of negative feedback past his release, and it seemed the forums were covered in Oberon threads. DE listens to positive notoriety as well. Nyx feedback was very positive in general, so when Nyx skipped ahead of Trinity for being primed, it came with very little surprise. Popular rumor holds that Nova will be primed next, which is understandable given her positive reputation in gameplay, even though we know she skipped ahead of three female warframes as far as release dates are concerned.

 

Indeed, a Nekros rework would be the most impacting rework in the game if Desecrate was altered. However, sometimes it seems the developers are so busy with the myriad of things in the game to be busy over, going backwards to renovate old content is their last priority, and I can understand that. It is clear that when they do answer feedback and give content reworks, they are seemingly very well informed. Sometimes these feedback sections feel more like feedback graveyards, but that's only because we get no active response for every time DE finds and idea and jots it down on a pad somewhere. The feedback is definitely being collected, we just don't know which feedback, how much, and what priority it holds in development.

Edited November 17, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MixterFox]

I kinda like the idea of 1 frame, 1 weapon group and or old mechanic getting looked at at some point each update. Don't think that's asking too much.

Don't know if that would ever happen maybe when this game starts coming out of beta but that could be over a year for issues that have been around for a year or more.

Edited November 17, 2014 by MixterFox

[Commander5exy]

Limbo

Update 15’s latest (and objectively most stylish) Warframe has long-boasted a degree of battlefield control unlike any we have seen yet forgetting Snow Globe or Chaos for a moment. Limbo’s main issue, however, is that the control he brings slows him down; the targeting system in Warframe has always been rather wanting (as noted under General) which takes a toll on tactical response, and we all know that the most important element in any combat scenario is speed (in this case, taking aim before the target moves or dies at the hands of your trigger-happy teammates). On top of this, his skillset provides very little reward for the control he brings; Rift Surge costs 75 energy and only provides Roar’s bonus for sending enemies (one at a time for 25 energy apiece) into the rift. Finally (and most importantly for many), it also absolutely hurts that Limbo can Banish allies – so you can be locked into a non-combat position at your ally’s discretion rather than your own, or even just have your attempt at crowd control innocently blocked by an ally and be unable to revert them due to line of sight. Limbo doesn’t need a major revamp, but he does need more fluidity.

 

Archetype: Tactician/Layer Control

 

Suggested changes:

- Banished allies can clear the effect by attacking non-Banished enemies with their weapons (if used with an explosive, piercing or cleaving weapon, this will only occur if no Banished enemies are hit, and does not occur from ability use). Using Banish to cancel its own effects is free.

- Rift Walk causes all enemies in the "material world" that the player attacks to enter the rift until Rift Walk ends; using this effect has an energy cost per target.

- Rift Surge roots all enemies who are in the rift at the moment of casting, until the effect ends.

- Cataclysm can be detonated prematurely by recasting the effect.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift. Drops can be picked up on either side of the rift.

 

Most of these are really just quality of life changes – forgiveness for mistiming a cast by a few seconds, or even provisions in the event of a troll. For Rift Walk, the idea is that it provides a lesser alternative to Banish (without the damage, stun or allied effect) if you need to drag multiple enemies in but not a full Cataclysm’s worth; simply tag them with your Soma or Ogris, and continue firing, then jump out of Rift Walk when you want them gone. Rift Surge, meanwhile, addresses the lack of payoff for Limbo: by combining it with Cataclysm, you can more easily protect your allies in emergencies, or provide a degree of crowd control in both worlds (mainly through the rift, of course).

Limbo was built up as a mad calculator; his skillset runs on the principle of removing variables to weigh better odds. Common conversations with him should run, "You, you and you - into the rift, rooted, out of the rift. Defense team, into rift to recuperate. Done with that bubble? Back into the rift, lemme make a killzone, then blow them all up." You still don't have total godmode, but you can choose when to initiate, and more easily make decisions on the fly. An completely tactical Warframe, like Loki; each skill does something ever so slightly different and still fits into one kit.

 

Collision removal would just be awesome. Can you even call him a Phase anything if he can't walk through enemies?

 

 

I agree to the changes listed for Limbo. He desperately needs a change as he was poorly thought out given his glaring flaws.

 

I'd suggest DE apply ALL the listed changes. As is, every single ability of his is counter-intuitive and often acts against a fellow Tenno's interests.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Commander5exy

[Elydir]

I agree to the changes listed for Limbo. He desperately needs a change as he was poorly thought out given his glaring flaws.

 

I'd suggest DE apply ALL the listed changes. As is, every single ability of his is counter-intuitive and often acts against a fellow Tenno's interests.

 

Same. I havent picked up Limbo yet just because of how much setup each engagement needs if you dont wanna die.

[taiiat]

Limbo is massively powerful enough as it is, it doesn't need to get easier. ala being able to pick up items while in the Rift makes Limbo even more of team invulnerability than he already is. Cataclysm allowing items inside to always be picked up gives the same utility without adding statcrepe to Limbo (who is on thin ice as it is, the line is very thin for him to be balanced).

 

so then being able to cancel Cataclysm and allies being able to 'turn off ' Banish if they don't want it at that time.

Rift Walk and Rift Surge being togglable may be worth having. Cataclysm... maybe not.

[xRevelation]

And remove bladestorm.

 

Wat.

[Archwizard]

Wat.

 

Old post is old. Short version, Bladestorm used to be less than amazing.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

As I was playing a Grineer sabotage mission on Ceres as Zephyr, I noticed that Turbulence was having literally no effect at all on any damage I was taking. The only way I could tell that Turbulence was even active was the timer over the ability icon. I reflected on how Turbulence gives me a complete immunity to all ranged damage when fighting Corpus, so this led me to conclude that something is seriously wrong here.

 

After researching Turbulence's mechanics, I discovered the true magnitude of the stupidity. For those of you who do not already know about Turbulence's mechanics, apparently Turbulence has an inner radius and an outer radius. The inner radius is about 5m wide at base, and the outer radius is about 20m wide at base (both can be increased with range mods.) Any projectile from a projectile weapon (such as Corpus guns) that hits the inner radius will be redirected away from you, and have no effect. Any hitscan weapon (such as Grineer guns) within the outer radius will receive an accuracy loss. This means that Turbulence will make you completely immune to all guns with slow-moving projectiles, but have little effect on hitscan weapons, and no effect at all on any hitscan weapons more than 20m away.

 

I suspect that this was done for purely aesthetic reasons. It looks cool to see the Corpus energy weapons be redirected around you, and because of that, the devs decided to make the mechanics for Turbulence cater to that. If you are unbalancing a warframe ability to make it look cool, there is a serious problem.

 

Building Zephyr for range would theoretically decrease the problem, but there would still be a limit to the effectiveness of Turbulence against hitscan weapons. A range build would also make maximizing any of Zephyr's other abilities completely impossible. All of Zephyr's abilities will benefit from an efficiency and duration build, and building for range as well would be extremely detrimental to her other abilities.

 

Turbulence definitely needs a rework to make it equally effective against all factions. How about giving an accuracy loss to all enemies targeting you or anything within the inner radius, no matter what type of gun they have? This would make it less ridiculously overpowered against Corpus guns, but make it more effective against Grineer guns, evening out the power against different factions. As of right now, Turbulence's mechanics are stupid, broken, make no sense, and are the way they are so the ability can look cool. I would like nothing more than to see this changed.

[taiiat]

All of Zephyr's abilities will benefit from an efficiency and duration build, and building for range as well would be extremely detrimental to her other abilities.

works just fine for me. against Hitscan Weapons as well. not 99.100% of the time like Ballistic ones, but still covers a very large area, and most Enemies will be inside that Range.

 

How about giving an accuracy loss to all enemies targeting you or anything within the inner radius, no matter what type of gun they have? This would make it less ridiculously overpowered against Corpus guns, but make it more effective against Grineer guns, evening out the power against different factions.

i would be okay with this.

[Nosferagon]

Does nobody think that Volt's First and Ult need a revamp? rather than his already best abilities, shield and speed?

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

works just fine for me. against Hitscan Weapons as well. not 99.100% of the time like Ballistic ones, but still covers a very large area, and most Enemies will be inside that Range.

 

Without other strength mods, the damage of Tornado and Dive Bomb on this build is extremely low.You could argue that Tornado and Dive Bomb are meant as crowd control skills and don't benefit from damage, but I use both abilities to kill large groups of enemies at decently high levels without much trouble. Using Overextended would severely nerf that damage.

[taiiat]

Without other strength mods, the damage of Tornado and Dive Bomb on this build is extremely low.

i would argue exactly that!

 

though Tornado still Kills Enemies despite the lower Power Strength, due to how many times it deals Damage. so i don't mind, and i don't really expect Zephyrs' Abilities to Kill things anyways so it doesn't bother me.

i could slot in Power Strength into that Loadout i'm sure, if i thought it was important.

 

 

Divebomb though.... heh. it has too many issues for me to use it more than once every never. requires pixel perfect landings to not miss Enemies due to how thin the 'hitbox' for the Ability is(more like a hit line), it's knockdown is... unreliable at best, and it deals absolutely no meaningful Damage whatsoever. 

to use Divebomb, you require Heavy Impact. having that makes the Ability.... a little less terrible.

pretty big shame, that Ability looks cool, but it does basically nothing.

[MechaKnight]

pretty big shame, that Ability looks cool, but it does basically nothing.

I think I just had an idea. Directional melee allows us to aim in any direction we choose to launch ourselves in a particular direction. However, if we aim downwards we will perform a ground slam. This mechanic could easily be translated to Tail Wind, allowing Dive Bomb to be removed completely and giving Zephyr a slot for a potentially more useful ability. Of course, the ability augment mod will have to be reworked to function with the new Tail Wind + Dive Bomb mechanic merge.