Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[StevesEvilTwin]

Am I the only one who thought of the "that makes me moist" reaction image...

 

 

... because this does not help.

Hentoid.

[Tykune]

In a perfect world, all Warframes would be competent at their role on their own, but capable of great feats of synergy beyond any one frame together. All of their abilities would be useful, mesh together and make sense in their hands (rather than just putting emphasis on spamming the "most useful" button); all of their themes and archetypes would be recognized and done justice. Gimmicky mods would be minor gameplay improvements, not requirements to get a frame off the ground. While not all stats would be necessary or useful, no stat would be actively detrimental to improve (and of course, Corrupted mods would actually have trade-offs rather than double-dipping in benefits).

 

This... is not that perfect world.

Numbers can be hotfixed at any time, but faulty mechanics have proven to be slower and more stubborn to change. Once a frame is released, the damage is already done – and course-correction is accused of being a “major revamp” that threatens to make the frame unrecognizable, or otherwise creates a backlash. Sometimes though, part of the original vision can just be wrong; a frame could be overspecialized, or focused on gimmicks over gameplay, or have abilities spread far too thin to stand on their own feet in completing their role. There were droves of players who felt penalized by Update 15's changes to abilities, as they forma'd away most of their ability slots! With issues like these, drastic changes are called for.

Today, I would like to look at what I think Warframe would be like in this hypothetical “perfect world”. Below is a list I’ve compiled of changes to frame behaviors and roles – not just “buffs”, but gameplay-altering adjustments to abilities.

 

Don't skim the list! This post is a frequently-updated compilation of months of feedback and brainstorming, and I already simplify the suggestions as much as I can. At least check that your suggestion for your favorite frame isn't already listed!

General Gameplay Changes

AI overhaul: Mind Controlled enemies, Shadows of the Dead, Specters and Kubrows approach and focus on enemies or locations you zoom in on, will ignore cover, and will follow you when enemies are not within their range of notice. Unless prompted by the focus command, they will prioritize enemies most damaging to their master, followed by those closest to their master - until their main target is killed in all cases, unless a higher priority interrupts.

Sentinel/Kubrow mods added to dictate behavior: Collecting loot (a la Vacuum), focusing on cameras, shooting at traps, etc.; Looter (container-shooting mod) officially released.

--> Carrier's Vacuum changed from “pick up loot” to Onihikage's "Pack Mule".

--> Ghost breaks X sec after initiating an attack, affected by rank.

--> Investigator scans faster based on mod rank, faster than a normal Codex scanner at max rank.

--> Vaporize cooldown inversely affected by mod rank.

Damage tables reworked: 

1) Radiation more effective against Infested Flesh than Robotics, Magnetic more effective against Ferrite Armor than Infested Flesh; Bleed damage is reduced on shielded targets, Toxin status can only bring you as low as 1 HP (on its own), Burn procs can be stacked

2) Sinew removed (all Ancients classed Fossilized), universal Robotic modifier shared between Grineer/Corpus tech (Grineer machines having Ferrite armor while Corpus machines utilize Shields), no more than 2 Flesh types in all (one for Infested, one for everyone else) 

3) Armor types between factions are more unified – Infested Chargers have residual Ferrite Armor from their days as Grineer soldiers, Corpus Crewman have Ferrite Armor modifiers on their helmets, Mutalists have Robotic modifiers, etc.

Stats separated from cosmetic helmets: Perhaps some system to grant similar (free) stat variations to the frame could be implemented through the loadout screen instead.

--> Edit 5/7: As of Update 13.2.3, stat-based helmets cannot be obtained anymore. However, this still poses an issue in that Arcane helmets can be traded, and you are forced to make a one-time decision to remove the stats from a helmet if you want to use it for aesthetics alone. The complete retroactive separation of stats from helmets (that is to say, the removal of Arcane helmets and distribution of their effects elsewhere) is still requested here.

Stealth Rewards: Enemies can have the minimum rarity/quantity of their loot drops increased by up to two "ranks" – one rank if they are unalerted when killed, and a second rank if the alarm has never been set off prior to their stealth kill (deactivating the alarm will not return a loot rank, and they must still be killed without alerting them).

General ability changes:

1) "First Precept" skills (Sonic Boom, Null Star, Soul Punch, etc.) no longer have an animation lock and can always be cast while moving

2) "Hitscan" skills with precise targeting (Mind Control, Venom, Soul Punch, etc) can auto-target the nearest enemy to the player's cursor if within line of sight or a certain range of the player's focal point – more forgiving targeting

3) Damage-focused abilities will deal additional damage equal to a percentage of the targets' maximum health (scaling with Power Strength); this damage is still affected by resistances and armor. For example, Fireball could do 400 damage plus 5% of a target's HP. (Does not apply to abilities that already scale damage like Shield Polarize or Antimatter Drop, utilities that deal incidental damage as a secondary effect like Bounce or Decoy, damage effects with unique utilities such as Molecular Prime or Rhino Stomp, or Finisher assaults like Bladestorm or Tentacle Swarm.)

 

Augments (Rant)

When augments were announced, the idea players were presented with was that each augment would shake up your playstyle; while fitting the name by not taking anything away, they could put an extra emphasis on a secondary function of an ability to encourage players to use it differently.

A powerful nuke like Antimatter Drop or Shield Polarize can become a method of defense; a crowd control like Undertow or Banish can become a backup support tool; a defensive skill like Link or Iron Skin can become a way to debuff enemies. New toys that players would gladly swap even a staple mod for, to expand their kits.

 

There's just one flaw with this design: abilities that don't do anything to begin with.

The difference between adding a support skill to Loki or giving that same skill to Ember, is that Loki has plenty of others to devalue this; Ember has none, but understands the value quite well.

 

What we need to focus on is that little word: "none".

 

 

 

So what does this mean?

Focus on building the foundation before you bring in the furnishings. Augments should never be used to bandaid fix a frame's problem; that's what Updates are for. If an ability is all but useless without an augment, that speaks toward the ability's designer, not the augment's.

 

Never use add-ons to 'fix' gameplay.

 

Ember

Ember has been the latest frame to get a revamp. For a long time she was limited to flat damage effects and spamming stuns, leaving her poorly equipped to deal with endgame content compared to other frames. While her base stats gave her a nudge in the right direction, many players are still dissatisfied by the result.

I’ll admit that when her Fire Blast change was announced, I was quite excited; I had previously suggested in this very thread that Fire Blast be used to clear an area and hold the line. However, a very distinct order was presented for a particular reason: an innate burn effect should be in the ring because Ember players are used to overlaying rings of flame to catch foes. The present knockback wave actually pushes them out of these rings, which makes it difficult to take advantage of the ring itself if the enemy isn’t a melee trying to charge back in.

Players originally suggested to make World on Fire a toggle so that the ability could be built without Duration, since almost every effect in her kit relies on it. Of course, the idea of having an endless effect that constantly deals damage without ever having reason to turn it off is sort of imbalanced. However, the devs went along with this anyway – but now it has the worst of both worlds, bearing the same duration while reducing its efficiency by removing the benefit of energy regeneration auras, with the only new benefits being initial damage (added later) and the ability to turn it off.

As with the phoenix, the wheel turns for Ember once more…

 

Suggested changes:

- Fireball causes any targets that received status from it to deal Heat damage to nearby enemies throughout the status' duration. This is unaffected by Power Range or Duration.

- Fireball Frenzy applies its effects to allies within Fireball's initial blast radius.

- Accelerant also increases the damage of Heat-based combination elements (Gas, Radiation, Blast), but with reduced effectiveness. 

- Fire Blast no longer inflicts knockback; instead, the circle of flames has a 100% status chance. Enemies will no longer attempt to avoid the ring of flames (a la Bastille or actual fire hazards).

- Fire Fright changed to inflict a knockback wave a la Eximus effects, with the radius and duration affected by rank.

--> As a simpler alternative to these two, make enemies under Heat status exceptions to the knockback wave.

- Considerations for World on Fire:

- World on Fire is no longer a toggled effect, and is only affected by Duration.

 

- World on Fire remains a toggled effect with a maximum Duration. Upon deactivation or expiration only, enemy-placed environmental hazards (ie tar, gas, flies) within range will instantly burn away, destroying the hazard and dealing Fire damage throughout the hazard's original radius.

 

Just to get the tiniest bit side-tracked, Fireball is the only basic elemental attack that does not improve upon (like Freeze or Venom) or supplement (like Shock) the status it represents; rather, it simply uses the status to inflict a DoT. While a Napalm blast effect at the location it hits would be interesting, it would also infringe upon the benefit of Fire Blast. The radial burn is a minor callback to Overheat, but also improves the status to give some hint as to where Gas got it from.

Back on on point, while the change to Fire Blast seems redundant, it does have a key point to it. With it, players can forgo the augment to perform the stunlocking attack they used it for before, or combine it for a tool that can clear an area to mount a defense or give allies time to recover.

Now, there is no way to avoid Duration with World on Fire at this point without a total rework of the effect; toggles are, by nature, designed to be turned off. So I present to you, the players, a choice: would you keep the toggle with an increased incentive to make up for the loss of energy efficiency, or prefer to reverse the effect of the change?

 

Frost

Frost is currently in a state of flux due to DE finally cracking down on him only having one skill worth using (Snow Globe)... and maybe focusing on the wrong areas. The good news is that Snow Globe is back to something of a high point, since it lasts more than a millisecond in high-level content (due to its brief immunity and multiple scaling knobs). The bad news is that his other skills are still fairly bland, since their changes have really only come to the point of giving him more (rather unnecessary) damage, in spite of his defensive role and heavily CC-themed element. Here when we heard their codename for Freeze in 12.0 was “Ice Blast”, we thought it’d at least have a more forgiving targeting radius... rather than literally being the exact same skill with higher damage and a lower CC cap (as levels go up).

To top it off, there was a brief ”bug” with Avalanche that players thought was something they could capitalize on, where enemies were CC'd for a rather impressively long time, something that we've always felt Frost should be capable of given how disappointing Freeze is – until they patched it out. It's been noted that even Nova is a stronger CCer than Frost is, which means its time for ice-elemental CC to make a comeback.

Suggested changes:

- Freeze hard-CCs all enemies within range of the impact location, rather than freezing on a direct hit; damage on impact reduced (or removed) to compensate. CC damage cap removed; solely uses Power Duration. Duration reduced against bosses.

- Freeze Force affects anyone in Freeze's initial blast radius.

- Ice Wave also has baseline knockback.

- Snow Globe can be penetrated from the front by friendly weapons with Punch Through. The globe appears to crack based on what percentage of health it has left, and a shattering cue can be heard if it breaks prematurely.

- Avalanche applies damage first, then staggers and freezes survivors for a few seconds based on rank, unaffected by Power Duration; this freeze has a damage cap.

Optimally, the Frost can cast a Snow Globe and use a combination of Freeze and Ice Wave both to keep enemies out of the globe and reduce incoming damage to the globe once its grace period ends, thereby extending the amount of damage it can take. If enemies are coming from too many directions, the player can tap Avalanche for a radial stun and more time.

There's a common suggestion for Ice Wave to leave a patch of cold on the ground like the traps in Void missions, but there are two problems there: First, that's basically what Snow Globe is for when fighting melee enemies, to create a sustainable area slow (the problem being that you can't shoot the enemies from outside). Second, how does a 4 second Cold proc measure up to a 10 second mass Freeze? Giving Ice Wave a knockback pairs up better with Snow Globe overall for the reasons stated above.

Worst case, Avalanche remains a bland, low-damage skill, which encourages it to be used only as a panic button if more cost-efficient means are already prevalent; best case, its role as a brief radial freeze is emphasized, even in light of an AoE buff to Freeze.

 

Nekros (Warning: Verbose)

Nekros is something of a touchy subject for this forum, but nonetheless needs to be addressed – and he’s been waiting over a year to be. “But Arch,” I can already hear you say, “There’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned support class! Desecrate’s great for Survivals, and his other skills make him great at CC!”

Well… this is where we disagree.

I agree that Nekros should be a support class, because the necromancer archetype has always been an unconventional one; whatever skills they have unrelated to raising the dead are typically geared towards debuffing enemies and increasing the effectiveness/survival of whatever they raise from the dead, each of which can splash over to their living allies. Their main form of output comes from whatever damage their minions deal (rather than spamming an attack key), which is great for a game like Warframe where enemy scaling can get truly ridiculous.

The problem is, Nekros doesn’t fulfill the expectations of a necromancer. Minion AI has been cut down so much that Shadows’ most reliable use is as a mass Decoy, rather than a form of scaling damage. Terrify as a CC does its job, but makes it difficult to target enemies under its effects and take advantage of the armor debuff. Soul Punch is a blatant gimmick, a telekinetic blast for a frame who has no reason bearing one in the first place, far surpassed by Smite; it's unreliable in how many targets it can affect at once, and is reduced to a mere ragdoll as enemy level increases. 

And then we have Desecrate. Oh, where to start with you.

Desecrate isn’t an ability; it’s a quick-time event to swing a bat at a piñata, limited to one Warframe. It’s the only button in the game built entirely on layers of RNG, forcing you to spam it to use it effectively; paired with the long cast time, this means you have very little room to build up your Shadows “soul cache”… or do anything else, really (and because of the limited casting window before corpses despawn, Natural Talent merely gives you more casts, rather than getting the job done more quickly). It doesn't blend with his toolkit; the health orbs can keep Nekros alive but do nothing for his minions, and maximizing it excludes the entirety of his arsenal. It plays the metagame for loot bonuses, rather than actively influencing the mission right in front of you. It was universally reviled when Nekros’ abilities were first described, but was pushed out against player concerns anyway – all of which have been proven justified since. If it weren’t for the corpse relation, it would have no reason being in a necromancer’s arsenal; if oxygen, resource and mod drops weren’t so borked as to need bandaids and crutches, it would have no reason being in the game at all. It is notorious for the boring backline gameplay it promotes (333, 3333, 33...), which reduces those who actually enjoy the idea of playing a necromancer to the sobbing wrecks of a clean-up crew.

It’s also Nekros’ defining trait.

That’s wrong, in every sense but factual accuracy. It should never be in the power of one class to influence the reward system of the game, because it makes the statement that the devs want this class to be the most rewarding, when all should be equally (just to different people and playstyles). Players gain a sense of entitlement towards the loot he provides, and your teammates will often get very angry if you aren't furiously mashing the button. Desecrate distills the main reason players run missions down to its purest, most mindless form; it literally bribes them to play Nekros (or at least bring some sap in to do it for them). I know DE can find a more clever way to reward players with what they want or need – at the very least, they could just improve droprates baseline – but above all they need to remove that crutch and give Nekros more interesting gameplay. 

Perhaps even the kind those of us who were excited by his announcement expected.

 

Edit 1/24 – TL;DR:

Ten problems that Devstream #45 did not address about Nekros:

 

1.      The “soul cache” mechanic on Shadows of the Dead forces Nekros players to restrict their killing blows to certain targets in order to make their Shadows worthwhile.

2.      Shadows need an AI overhaul. They aren’t “dumb” so much as too smart for competence, seeking cover when they should be aggressive and patrolling areas their summoner has already left.

3.      Shadows of the Dead, as a body-blocking tool, is a two way street; Nekros and his allies cannot see or shoot through Shadows, which just means they create clutter on the battlefield.

4.      Despite being his “Oh S#&$” button, Nekros is locked out of casting Terrify an additional time while active, leaving him defenseless if another wave of enemies approaches. Addressed before release.

5.      Of the many ways to decrease enemy armor, only one cannot approach 100% on its own within current Power Strength constrictions or be stacked to that point: Terrify. 

6.      Enemies under the effects of Terrify sprint at full-speed toward the nearest exit, synergizing poorly with the armor debuff and making it harder to clean the slate for a second cast.

7.      Soul Punch has virtually nonexistent area-effect compared to an ability like Smite or Pull, and does not provide sufficient benefits (without the augment) to justify being single-target like Banish or Rip Line. It's just a knockdown at high level, which each of those have and more.

8.      Desecrate’s reliance on RNG forces it to be spammed for maximum effectiveness; this spam locks Nekros players out of using his other abilities or attacks, and makes it difficult to build the “soul cache”. Altogether, this promotes boring backline gameplay.

9.      Desecrate does not synergize with the rest of Nekros’ kit; despite Shadows making him the one frame who can justify having a team to support even in solo mode, they can’t benefit from the loot his “support” provides (nor approach it if they could).

 

Finally, but most importantly,

 

10.    Desecrate’s metagame benefits make the loot it provides more important to players than any other skill in Nekros’ arsenal; it doesn't even provide a strong benefit in the mission, but players tear each other apart over it because of the benefits it provides once they leave (many a group has fallen apart because someone didn't want to play a Nekros when the host was hunting a rare mod). Any changes to his other skills won't matter so long as he has to spam this skill, or build exclusively Power Range for the benefit of this skill alone.

 

Suggested changes:

- Soul Punch separates the target’s soul from its body; when the main target is ragdolled, they temporarily leave their soul (an attackable, stationary after-image with linked health and reduced shields/armor) behind. If the target is killed by the initial damage or while the 'rip' effect is active, the remainder of the effect jumps to the nearest enemy. Defense reduction is affected by Power Strength, 'soul rip' uptime is affected by Power Duration.

- Terrify no longer reduces targets' armor, but staggers all affected targets upon activation, and slows them for an amount based on rank. Can be prematurely cleared by recasting the effect.

--> In Dark Sectors/Conclave/Dojo, Terrify inverts enemy movement controls for a few seconds (as it cannot simulate AI change on players).

- Desecrate replaced with “Siphon Life”: Deals instant Viral damage to enemies in a cone in front of Nekros, then releases a pulse of radial healing from Nekros to allies (including minions and companions) based on accumulated damage dealt. High proc chance.

-  Despoil replaced: Corpses in the area of Siphon Life have a X% chance to spawn health orbs.

- Shadows of the Dead's "Soul Cache" is based on mission-wide kills, not just the Nekros' killing blows. Recasting Shadows while active causes any surviving minions to be instantly called to your side. (See "AI overhaul" under General for further details.) Kills made by Shadows count as kills made by Nekros, for the purposes of affinity gains and challenges.

- Shields reduced, energy (and health?) pool increased.

 

Combined with the AI tweaks and ability changes mentioned under “General” above, this will course-correct Nekros back to the role he should have had all along: minion support and control, with side benefits that splash over to non-minion allies just enough to make each skill stand alone. 

One might also note that some of the suggestions listed above create something of an homage to the design we were initially told about, back before everything about Nekros went horribly wrong: Soul Punch could gain the ability to reduce enemy armor in lieu of Terrify, while Desecrate would be replaced with a life drain. (I didn't go so far as to make Terrify a totem because... that's Bastille.)

I've always believed that the first skill in a Warframe's arsenal should summarize the Warframe's kit (to give a player an early feel), while each ability should provide a unique tool to the player. The idea that Soul Punch could debuff and CC an enemy while creating entities is certainly a strong summation, while the ability to set up vulnerable foes for your minions or double-tap targets with one cast of Siphon Life would synergize splendidly. 

"'Prioritized over the soul cache'? But then I can't target specific enemies to add to my army!" Yup. You'll just have to save the soul cache in case there aren't enough corpses around. The horror.

"Why Viral damage?" Because it’s more effective against living enemies than Infested or Robots, and its proc gives the effect of actually sapping the target’s life force. Thematically, it also marks Nekros as the opposite of Oberon, a healer and defender of the weak - Nekros, the disabler and manipulator of the weak.

"But isn't this a bit drastic?" Yes, that's sort of the point. You'll also note that abilities like Fireball, Silence, Hysteria and the entirety of Ash, Rhino, Trinity and Mag's skillsets have been reworked as drastically in the past over several iterations, to the point you would not even recognize them compared to their releases – the same abilities in name only. I'm simply speeding things up (a year's worth of interest, as it were) and dropping the pretense.

 

Saryn

Far as I can tell, Saryn was intended to be a melee frame, or at best mid-range. She has above-average defense like a melee would need, relatively low range on her direct-damage abilities, and an ability that makes her melee attacks deal more elemental damage. Her major issue is that, since Damage 2.0, the Poison/Toxic element in itself isn’t all that effective, since it doesn’t ignore all forms of defense anymore – thus making Contagion less effective as a damage skill, and reducing her appeal in melee. To make matters worse, it costs 75 energy for a buff that only affects Saryn herself, and only with melee attacks; if she doesn't have a melee weapon equipped, then it becomes completely useless. Speed and Warcry completely blow it out of the water, since they grant a substantial boost to the whole party (and, between Speed's lower cost and Warcry's debuff, are more cost effective to boot!). It's been repeatedly called a useless and forgettable ability, so perhaps it's time for Saryn to... shed her skin, so to speak.

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.

- Venom Dose applies its effects to all allies in a radius around a friendly target.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning and briefly makes her immune to reapplication. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

Yes, Allure is both a perfume pun (THOSE HEELS and fungal growths THOUGH) and a revival of Overheat. Scott has already said Overheat was not right in Ember’s hands, and I’m inclined to agree – it’s not fit for someone intended to spam Fireball from half a room away, but it’s perfect for someone with Saryn's values of range and defense. Plus, it opens the door to let Saryn use every Toxin-based element (she’s already got three!). With the change to Molt, the player can now transfer the mitigation to the Molt to make it last longer (plus Gas damage for those melee enemies), culminating in one final explosion of poison damage (or two, since Molt does more damage if it lasts the whole duration - benefiting from mitigation). Alternately, players can Leeroy Jenkins with Allure up for maximum Venom effectiveness, bringing Saryn back to her glory days of a hundred DoT ticks a second. Meanwhile, Miasma has armor-reducing DoT to take advantage of the way Corrosive procs stack (THAT’s how you do an anti-armor skill, NOT Terrify), skyrocketing Saryn’s damage utility against all factions.

 

Zephyr

While a “Hawk” frame had always been on the infamous Design Council poll that spawned Nova, Nekros and Valkyr, Zephyr was originally inspired by a fan concept by the infamous Volkovyi. About midway through his thread, Volkovyi revamped Zephyr’s abilities with one emphasis in mind: air support. Volkovyi's Zephyr had an almost perfect kit for the role, everything from free flight to create distance, to rooting projectiles to constantly rain down fire on foes, to barriers against the ballistic attacks that could reach her – several of which were translated, in some form or other, when the gender-swapped version was officially released.

So why does DE's Zephyr disappoint? Some will say that it’s because an air support just isn't viable in certain indoor structures, since it gives her very little room to maneuver, but I completely disagree. In truth, it’s because she focused more on being maneuverable than on actually spending time in the air; her utility ends up taking a backseat to personal speed as a result. For Zephyr, as with Nekros above, I think we should take a step back and look at the presented concept, to remember what exactly what so inspiring about the class.

 

Suggested changes:

- Tail Wind merged with Dive Bomb: Aiming in a 90-degree cone beneath Zephyr while airborne will cause her to drop upon the targeted location at high speed. No longer multiplies gravity on an ascent.

- Dive Bomb replaced with “Typhoon”: Zephyr fires a wide, spiraling blast of wind that damages and knocks down foes in a line in front of her, but is also propelled away by the force; this can reset her airtime, and inflict headshots from the air. Airborne foes are knocked out of the air by this effect, and unable to fly for a brief period (a la stagger).

- Divebomb Vortex renamed “Wind Tunnel”, and instead applies its effects to an impact zone struck by Typhoon.

- Turbulence no longer reduces enemy accuracy. Instead, the inner radius has a X% chance to harmlessly deflect/negate any projectiles, and an additional Y% chance to aim deflected projectiles at enemies within the outer radius. Both chances affected by Power Strength.

- Tornado can be aimed, and traps enemies inside each cyclone for the entire duration, rather than ragdolling them out of the top. Physical damage dealt to a cyclone is instantly split between all enemies inside of it.

 

First thing's first, Dive Bomb. It has long been called one of the most redundant skills in the game, giving her an additional gap closer when she already has the free-aimed Tail Wind. It takes her out of her element to use it, which wouldn't be such an issue if she had any trouble getting down in the first place, when her issue is really the opposite - not being nearly “floaty” enough to continue firing from the air. Tempest intends to solve that particular issue, while rewarding the player for carpet-bombing foes from above by allowing her to remain airborne just a little longer; it's not simply a knockback, as you would be “forced away” upward if aimed downward, but can also create some distance in closed-spaces by causing her to glide backwards.

Now, since I’m writing this (but not the above suggestion itself) up after Update 15.5, I'm also aware of another issue on the mind: Yes, Turbulence is awfully similar to Shatter Shield. You can read Volkovyi's thread to understand why the similarity, of course, since it long predated Mesa. Turbulence as it is now limits Zephyr to fighting within a set range from enemies – which just won’t do if she is to do any air-sniping.

The other changes are designed to bring more synergy to Zephyr’s kit. For example, Tail Wind’s ability to damage enemies in flight, while derived from Slash Dash, could also be transferred into her Tornado to deal damage to those she renders airborne.

 

Everyone Else Ash-Mesa

Note: This section primarily consists of minor tweaks, and revamps I didn’t consider terribly substantial. If you have more to say about your favorite frame being in here rather than up above (or off this list entirely), feel free to complain below.

Ash

- Shuriken gain a stealth modifier against unalerted enemies, and inflict a stagger.

- Teleport can be cast without a target, moving the player as close to the targeted location as Power Range allows. If a non-friendly target is selected, casting Teleport automatically begins a hastened finisher on the enemy - skip the elaborate weapon draw, and double the animation speed of the strike.

Banshee

- Sonic Boom's damage now matches Pull, and can be cast without interrupting reloads.

- Sonar can be recast to reroll the positions of current weakspots. (This will reset additional weakspots created by the augment.)

- Silence also silences allied weapons within the radius, to prevent detection by enemies outside of the sniper's immediate radius.

 

Excalibur

- Slash Dash removes collision with enemies while in effect, and can be canceled prematurely by melee striking or recasting the effect.

- Super Jump no longer locks the player out of using other abilities or weapons while ascending. Shield regeneration may also begin the instant the Excalibur enters stealth.

- Radial Javelin once again summons a minimum number of blades based on rank. Damage reduced (no more than 20%), but now affected by the combo multiplier, which is also reset by this skill. Casting while airborne can pin enemies to the ground for a duration based on rank; cast speed increased.

- Passive: Excalibur's combo counter takes (at least) twice as long to reset as other Warframes.

Hydroid

- Tempest Barrage is one-handed and can be recast while active. If overlayed on Undertow, Tempest Barrage can damage foes within the puddle.

- Tidal Surge collects and continuously pushes enemies caught in it for the remainder of the duration, only releasing and ragdolling them during the Slash portion. Can be cast while Undertow is active to relocate the puddle and all enemies inside.

- Undertow removes collision for enemies that wander into the pool. Other abilities may be cast while active.

- Tentacle Swarm deals additional damage in a limited radius around each tentacle when they strike the ground. If Undertow is active and within range, tentacles will throw foes they capture into Undertow.

 

Limbo

- Rift Surge grants its bonus to allies, increasing the damage against foes sent to the rift by the casting Limbo while active. 

--> Rift Torrent still only affects the casting Limbo.

- Cataclysm pulls drops within its radius into the rift. Using Banish on a target within Cataclysm will expel them from the rift.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift.

 

Loki

- Switch Teleport can target Explosive Barrels and Arc Traps. Enemies will continue shooting at Loki's original location as if he entered stealth; hostile targets can receive friendly fire during this period.

- Radial Disarm disables the abilities and flight of Mutalist Infested, Grineer Regulators and Hellions (as with Corpus Ospreys); additionally, all Grineer Machinery, Corpus Robotics or Mutalist Infested are damaged and stunned for a brief period.

 

Mag

- Pull once again knocks down and drags enemies to the caster's feet, rather than ragdoll-flinging them; can be used through walls. Damage unaffected.

- Bullet Attractor's explosion removed, cost reduced. All shots into or within the sphere automatically redirect to the target, with Punch Through against any obstructions between.

- Crush causes enemies within range of one another to magnetize toward each other, dealing additional Impact damage in each cluster per enemy "bundled". Affected enemies are ragdolled at the end of the animation.

--> Augment: Enemy clusters formed by Crush are thrown in the direction of the player's cursor at the end of the cast, dealing additional damage at the impact location.

 

Mesa

- Ballistic Battery benefits multiple shots within a short duration (affected by rank only) after activation, with a weakening bonus on each successive shot. Can be charged by blocking attacks with melee.

- Shooting Gallery also increases fire rate and benefits all Tenno within range of Mesa at all times, rather than jumping over the course of the effect.

- Extra considerations for Shatter Shield:

- Shatter Shield replaced with “Bullet Hell”: Mesa sharpens her reflexes, increasing her movement speed and allowing her to spend ammo (from her currently-equipped weapon's reserve ammo pool, not the clip) to shoot incoming projectiles out of the air with her Regulators; this functions similarly to manually blocking with a melee weapon.

--> Bullet Hell can be prematurely deactivated similarly to Rift Walk. The blocking is an automatic process, and deals damage to each bullet’s source based on her Power Strength.

--> Essentially, it's Shatter Shield with a higher cost, an extra benefit, and an aesthetic element befitting a supernatural sharpshooter.

 

- Shatter Shield replaced with “Bullet Time”: Mesa gains one Dodge charge. When attacked, she expends the charge to briefly slow every hostile force around herself (including projectiles – hitscan attacks to enter the radius gain travel time, like an anti-Bullet Attractor); pressing a movement key while the effect is active will allow her to teleport a short distance away.

--> The teleport would be usable during Peacemaker, but Bullet Time could not be recast without ending Peacemaker.

--> If Shooting Gallery can deal with ranged foes, Bullet Time would be more useful for avoiding melee enemies.

 

Everyone Else Mirage-Volt

Note: This section primarily consists of minor tweaks, and revamps I didn’t consider terribly substantial. If you have more to say about your favorite frame being in here rather than up above (or off this list entirely), feel free to complain below.

Mirage

- Sleight of Hand causes access panels to explode as soon as the enemy tries to use them, and renders the panel permanently unusable by enemies; lockers will suck nearby enemies inside for the remainder of the duration, a la Undertow; orbs and ammo packs are converted into proximity mines (and can still be picked up by the caster before exploding), rather than exploding randomly.

Nova

- Null Star staggers targets on every hit

Nyx

- Psychic Bolts deal increased Finisher damage, but part of the damage dealt by each bolt is healed from surviving targets over a period affected by Power Duration. Each bolt will attempt to seek a new nearby enemy if the target dies while the bolt is in-transit.

 

Oberon

- Smite Infusion also grants its benefits to allies struck by the secondary projectiles, which will home in on allies if enemies are not nearby.

- Hallowed Ground's armor bonus stacks; purges all debuffs and negative attachments (ie swarms, leeches) from Tenno who walk over it.

- Renewal will continue healing players so long as it's toggled active, regardless of the team's health totals. Duration is affected linearly rather than inversely.

 

Rhino

- Rhino Charge ragdolls affected targets, pushing them out of the way.

- Iron Skin is now a toggled skill and no longer has a fixed amount of health. Instead, all damage taken will be transferred to Rhino's energy pool instead (affected by Power Efficiency and armor). While active, the user's weight/gravity increases.

- Roar also compels enemies alerted to his presence within range of the effect to attack Rhino.

- Arcane Vanguard Helmet reduced from +25% Speed to +15% Speed

Trinity

- Well of Life's life drain can also revive downed players if the target is killed while the effect is active.

- Pool of Life replaced with “Lifeblood”: Casting Well of Life on an ally grants them a percentage of life drain, with a capped amount of healing it can grant per player.

 

Valkyr

- Rip Line casts against the environment cause Valkyr to knock down enemies she passes through (ie dive kick).

- Paralysis stun duration doubled.

- Prolonged Paralysis no longer affects stun duration; augment renamed.

- Hysteria no longer makes Valkyr invulnerable or deals damage to the player when it ends, but instead prevents Valkyr from falling below 1 health (by any means) while active. While active, damage dealt to the user's health increases the user's damage dealt until the effect ends (exchange rate affected by rank and Power Strength). Hysteria can be canceled by recasting the effect.

Vauban

- Tesla staggers on every hit

- Bounce only procs for allies upon jumping on/into it, rather than instantly flinging players

Volt 

- Shock Trooper allows Shock to chain through allies who have not yet received its buff.

- Speed's visual distortion reduced

- Electric Shield's visual distortion reduced

--> Augment: Riot Shield - Electric Shield attaches itself to allies who pass through it, with X% of its size and remaining duration. (Functions similarly to Odonata's Energy Shell.)

- Overload's destroyed electronics can regenerate after a period (30-60 sec?).

 

Victories so far

14.5.0: Oberon

"- Smite deals Radiation/Puncture [...] status chance increased to 100%. 

- Hallowed Ground is summoned under Oberon's feet and grants (stackable) damage reduction to allies standing in it. 

- Renewal is now a Toggled aura [...] Activating Renewal also instantly purges status effects from allies within range (but only on the first pulse) and increases recovery time."

 

15.2.0: Nyx

"- Mind Control prevents the target from receiving damage from Tenno while active, THEN deals the accumulated damage the target would have taken from Tenno when the effect ends."

 

15.9.0: Excalibur

"- Slash Dash increases Excalibur's melee combo count by 1 per enemy hit."

If you have any adjustments of your own to add to the list, or would like to argue about what’s already there, feel free.

And if you think “everything's fine as it is”, this is clearly not the thread for you.

Im okay with most of Rhino's changes except for suggesting a change to vaguard helmet. That has no bearing on power for rhino and there is no need to change it, as it allows rhino to keep up with the rest of the team and NOT get left behind in the dust.

[Tykune]

It's the fact that with one helmet, Rhino Prime has zero trade-offs.

Loki's trade-offs for his mobility and CC are his low survival and lack of direct-damage skills, but Rhino Prime gets all of the above compared to him.

Rhino's explicitly stated to be the heavy frame, not a nimble one.

 

I wish I could say I expect stat separation on helmets to have some effect on this, but given the stance they presented on that in today's stream, the best that can happen is they tone down Vanguard's speed by about 10%.

You obviously didn't look at the helmet's stats. He gets -5% power strength

[taiiat]

as it allows rhino to keep up with the rest of the team

that isn't 'keeping up'. that would be a middle of the pack number, not the front of the pack.

which is exactly what Archwizard has in mind. making it a bonus that puts that stat in the middle of the pack, rather than at the front of the pack.

He gets -5% power strength

that's not a negative. it's an inconsequential 'downside'. you won't even notice the difference.

[RealPandemonium]

Loki's trade-offs for his mobility and CC are his low survival and lack of direct-damage skills, but Rhino Prime gets all of the above compared to him.

QT bring's Loki's survival in line with others' (with Redirection) and what he gets in return is the ability to ignore enemies almost entirely and turn them all into cannon fodder for his whole team.

[StevesEvilTwin]

QT bring's Loki's survival in line with others' (with Redirection) and what he gets in return is the ability to ignore enemies almost entirely and turn them all into cannon fodder for his whole team.

There's no point in arguing Loki, he's always going to be OP because he's outside the ability power balance plane that everyone else is in. Loki, Nekros, and Limbo will never be balanced because they play the Metagame. Loki was designed around bad AI. Nekros was designed around evil drop rates. Limbo basically plays a different game.

[Archwizard]

Im okay with most of Rhino's changes except for suggesting a change to vaguard helmet. That has no bearing on power for rhino and there is no need to change it, as it allows rhino to keep up with the rest of the team and NOT get left behind in the dust.

 

Do the math.

 

10%: Rhino has 99% Sprint Speed, just barely keeping up with everyone else. Rhino Prime has 110% Sprint Speed, and can still outpace many. Preferable position for Rhino Prime, perhaps not for Rhino.

15%: Rhino has 104.5% Sprint Speed, amply keeping up. Rhino Prime has 115% Sprint Speed, and can still outpace many. Preferable position for Rhino, perhaps not for Rhino Prime.

25% (present): Rhino has 113.5% Sprint Speed, outpacing most Warframes. Rhino Prime has 125% Sprint Speed, matching Loki before you factor in his Charge skill actually making him even faster.

 

If it were simply about 'keep[ing] up with the rest of the team and NOT get[ting] left behind in the dust', you would find this acceptable.

 

You obviously didn't look at the helmet's stats. He gets -5% power strength

 

Short version: 1 rank of Intensify versus 5 ranks of Rush.

 

That's not a tradeoff. That's practically theft.

 

QT bring's Loki's survival in line with others' (with Redirection) and what he gets in return is the ability to ignore enemies almost entirely and turn them all into cannon fodder for his whole team.

 

Aaaaand the both of you are addressing a counterargument from a year ago.

 

There's no point in arguing Loki, he's always going to be OP because he's outside the ability power balance plane that everyone else is in. Loki, Nekros, and Limbo will never be balanced because they play the Metagame. Loki was designed around bad AI. Nekros was designed around evil drop rates. Limbo basically plays a different game.

 

Actually, I would say Loki and Limbo are balanced - around the same game as everyone else, even.

 

If you fault Loki for the manner in which he's supposed to manipulate AI - which mind you, would only get stronger if the AI was more realistic (looking at you, Switchaport) - you'd have to fault Nyx, Banshee, Hydroid, and any number of others I can't think of. Besides, his abilities allow him to group up enemies to be taken down by allies' abilities or by long-range melee weapons; his skills feed into others, which at worst makes him a different step in the same chain, but not a different game.

 

Limbo's Banish is little different from a donatable Hysteria, if you think about it - just replace the 'melee' limitation with 'damaging abilities' (which he, unlike most, doesn't actually have). The "I can't hit you, but you can't hit me either" stalling tactic is actually an archetypal skill in many games and genres, the fact that the skill is set up to have the exact same effect on everyone it hits just means its a manner of tactical application. Hek, the whole point of Limbo's 'layered world' mechanic was to have a form of intangibility that the devs could balance.

 

The worst you can fault the two of them for is dealing with constants - utilities that can't be buffed or nerfed without changing them on a fundamental level. They do still have interplay with the strategies and design of other Warframes, with their own augmentations and twists upon them.

 

Nekros, on the other hand, we completely agree upon.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

There's no point in arguing Loki, he's always going to be OP because he's outside the ability power balance plane that everyone else is in. Loki, Nekros, and Limbo will never be balanced because they play the Metagame. Loki was designed around bad AI. Nekros was designed around evil drop rates. Limbo basically plays a different game.

 

Loki and Limbo don't - do you even know what a "metagame" is?

[RealPandemonium]

Loki and Limbo don't - do you even know what a "metagame" is?

He's actually using the term correctly here, hehe.

[Elydir]

He's actually using the term correctly here, hehe.

 

And here I thought he was using it ironically.

 

But seriously, affecting the realm theyre in and removing weapons isnt "meta". All of their abilities have effects in the mission.

[RealPandemonium]

And here I thought he was using it ironically.

 

But seriously, affecting the realm theyre in and removing weapons isnt "meta". All of their abilities have effects in the mission.

What he's saying is that people use these frames for concerns outside of gameplay.  They use Nekros to farm mods and they use Limbo/Loki to complete missions and get rewards without actually having to play.  

[Archwizard]

What he's saying is that people use these frames for concerns outside of gameplay.  They use Nekros to farm mods and they use Limbo/Loki to complete missions and get rewards without actually having to play.  

 

They do still have to play, though. The two of them just make it significantly more easy, not having to worry about that pesky 'damage'.

 

Which I'd still say is about as metagamey as having Vauban spam Bastilles and Vortexes, Rhino with Stomp, Ember with Fire Blast 1.0 so enemies can't shoot you, or using a Trinity/Valkyr/Nyx to absorb any hits against you.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

They do still have to play, though. The two of them just make it significantly more easy, not having to worry about that pesky 'damage'.

Which I'd still say is about as metagamey as having Vauban spam Bastilles and Vortexes, Rhino with Stomp, Ember with Fire Blast 1.0 so enemies can't shoot you, or using a Trinity/Valkyr/Nyx to absorb any hits against you.

between Loki, Limbo, and the rest of the Abilities mentioned here - Stomp is the only one that really 'match up' with the ease of Loki and Limbo(ofcourse, Limbo has a bit more of an excuse, as those Abilities generally significantly slow down your rate of dealing with them in order to be effectively intangible)

the other options you mentioned are fairly cheesy but they are not practical to be done alone, you need to coordinate Warframes together.

the more coordination and actual Co-Op required to do something that's cheesy, the less cheesy it will feel.

Edited March 8, 2015 by taiiat

[StevesEvilTwin]

More Warframe suggestions incoming:

 

First of all, a warning: These ideas are rather radical and completely change how the frames currently work. I'm not too good at subtlety, so I'm hoping you can find something useful out of these.

 

 

Frost:

 

When I think of Frost as a defense frame, I always come to the ultimatum that his abilities should be centred around keeping personal space. Like, his nickname should be "obsessive compulsive germophobe". I also ended up linking Frost to sniping, as both involve being as far away from enemies as possible (and also because his coat reminds me of a sniper's camoflauge for some reason).

 

Your changes do this quite well actually, allowing him to Freeze enemies to gain more distance away from them, and Ice Waving them back when they get too close. Snowglobe is, of course, snowglobe. Avalanche is notably lacking the theme of personal space, and making it a mass freeze is kind of boring. I then read on the forums about how World on Fire as a mobile nuke was not suited for Ember due to her squishiness, and realized that something like it would actually fit fairly well on Frost by giving him an ability similar to the Eximus' snowglobe.

 

With the sniper role in mind, I thought about how he needed to CC enemies in a way that makes it easy for him to pull crackshots on them. The Cold proc accomplishes this, slowing down enemies to make them easier to shoot,but it doesn't really offer the "oomph" that a sniper shot should have. I realized that Freeze could actually be used as a sort of marker for targets by making them stand still (which it already does), and offering bonus damage.

 

Here are the suggested changes:

 

Freeze:

1. Deals a radial explosion of Cold damage, but only freezes one enemy solid, rest are given Cold procs.

2. Deals same damage on defrosting.

3. Defrosting damage is tripled if the frozen enemy is shattered prematurely.

4. If allowed to melt naturally, deals the defrosting damage in another explosion of Cold damage with 100% proc chance

 

Ice Wave:

1. Width and height increased.

2. Pushes back all enemies to the end of the wave (like Tidal Surge) and deals Cold procs,

 

Snowglobe:

1. All enemies within initial radius are frozen solid in the same way as Freeze.

 

Avalanche (replaced):

1. Frost turns himself into an avalanche, multiplying his armor by 5 times and dealing continuous cold damage in a circular column around him (essentially infinite height) but preventing him from sprinting or jumping.

2. Enemies are pushed out and away by the avalanche as if it were a solid moving wall (they are knocked back but still standing) but still take damage from touching it and are Cold proc'd.

3. If enemies are pushed back with nowhere to go, they are frozen solid in the same manner as Freeze instead.

4. Avalanche damage shatters frozen solid enemies instantly.

5. Upon end of ability, all enemies in a larger radius are frozen solid.

6. Duration based, can be toggled off but without the end effect.

 

 

 

-linebreak-

 

 

Ember:

 

I think that one of Ember's greatest failures is that the devs tried to put her in a sort of close range, area denial role, as seen with Fire Blast especially. This is wrong conceptually, and does not at all suit the characteristics of fire at all. While fire, and flamethrowers especially, are seen as powerful close range weapons used for blocking off areas defensively, the way they defend is not through brute force or resilience. It's through fear.

 

The effectiveness of fire in warfare is highly psychological. There's a reason why flamethrower soldiers are executed immediately but machinegunners are not, even though the latter is capable and probably did in fact cause more damage. Burning to death is a lot scarier than being killed by bullets. Take the Pyro class in TF2 for example. He is good at locking down areas, with a Pyro guarding a corridor making everyone hesistate going inside and making weaker classes avoid that path entirely. But it's not because he actually sets up an impenetrable barrier like the Engineer does with his sentry gun. It's because everyone is afraid of him, and afraid of dying a pathetic, fiery death. It's because he can set them on fire, dealing heavy DoT damage that allows him to kill his enemies even after he dies. He can also counter all the other classes' abilities, reflecting explosives, stunlocking Scouts, and revealing Spies.  Worst of all, one of his unlocks allows the deadly combo of "Puff and Sting": lighting enemies on fire, airblasting them to stunlock them, and then hitting them with his axe that deals bonus damage to flaming enemies.

 

Playing Ember should feel similar to this:

 

Ember's abilities are very good at making enemies close to her die, but do nothing to the enemies that aren't close to her. She is also too squishy to risk actually running up to them. She doesn't make enemies afraid, she just kills them really quickly up to a certain point. Of course, we can't actually make enemies afraid since they're dumb AI, but we can simulate the effect of causing fear to enemies by giving Ember everything that enemies use against us. Ember should be the ultimate revenge frame, returning all of the stunlocks, slowdowns, unavoidable DoT's, knockdowns, pulling, and nullifying that enemies use to pester us back to them.

 

Another issue I noticed is Ember's lack of scaling. She's a damage based frame, so her damage eventually has to stop somewhere if it's flat. But then I noticed Mesa's Ballsitic Battery, and thought about adding a similar Charges mechanic to all of her abilities, increasing her damage based on the number of enemies she's killed, and thus allowing her to theoretically deal infinite damage as long as she keeps killing.

 

 

These are just some rough suggestions:

 

Passive: all Heat procs inflicted by Ember last twice as long

 

Fireball:

1. Each enemy killed with Fireball adds a "Fire Charge" to Ember.

 

Accelerant:

1. Scales with number of Fire Charges

2. Instead of stunning, inflicts constantly refreshing Heat procs for low damage

 

Fire Blast (replaced with Phoenix Dive):

1. Ember turns herself into an invulnerable wave of fire, tripling her movement speed and allowing her to noclip through enemies for 4 seconds.

2. All enemies that touch Ember while she is fire are sucked up, dealt moderate Heat procs, and deposited in a pile in front of her when the ability ends.

3. Fire Fright adds the Fire Blast effect at the end of the ability.

 

World on Fire (replaced with Oxidize);

1. Ember slams the ground and inflicts all enemies in a huge radius with high Heat damage that scales with the number of "Fire Charges" she has.

2. The area of the nuke is Oxygenated for a short while afterwards, causing all Heat damage to have 100% proc chance, and making Heat procs deal their damage immediately.

3. The ability cannot be recast until the Oxygen dissipates.

4. Uses up all of Ember's "Fire Charges"

 

-linebreak-

 

Excalibur:

 

Last but not least, good old Excalibur. As the generic frame, I think that his abilities should be a little bit of everything. Even if it means taking from other frames' abilities (especially because so many of his abilities are being reused). Oberon is kind of everything Excalibur should have been. I also noticed an interesting way to add to the theme of Excalibur, by incorporating more aspects of the legend into his abilities. Excalibur's scabbard prevents the owner from dying, the sword in the stone, King Arthur's weapons, and the inscription on the sword of "Take me up" and "Cast me away"

 

Passive: Excalibur is holds out a scabbard in his off hand while casting his abilities and ins invulnerable for the entirety of all casting animations

 

Slash Dash:

1. If cast on an enemy, Excalibur stabs them with a dagger while dashing, dealing double damage to that target alone.

2. Stuns all enemies that were hit in the same manner as Radial Javelin.

 

Radial Blind (give it a bit of area denial capability):

1. Gives the guaranteed blindness of before in a halved radius.

2. Leaves behind a glowing "afterimage" of the sword that has the LoS blinding in the current area of effect.

3. The "afterimage" lasts 4 seconds and the previous one disappears if Radial Blind is recast.

 

Super Jump (if it's so "super" it should do a little bit of everything, right?, and also useability improvements):

1. Excalibur draws a sword out of the ground, giving him one "Jump Charge", maximum 5 "Charges" can be held.

2. Next jump will be amplified in height but still allowing free input (allowing Super Jump to be used for coptering) and uses up a "Charge".

3. While Super Jumping, Excalibur is invisible, regenerates shields 5 times as quickly (there's no frame that scales with shield regen rate yet), and 50% of all damage dealt is converted to Finisher damage.

4. The effects are active as long as Excalibur is in the air after jumping.

5. When Excalibur lands, he goes into an animation lock where he holds out a sword in front of him and drops it, where the sword sinks into the ground with a ripple, as if into water. (this prevents auto rolling)

6. After Excalibur lands, the total amount of shields he regenerated is given to allies, and also gives himself and his allies infinite stamina for several seconds.

7. Excalibur does not have to wait for these effects to wear off before jumping again.

 

Radial Javelin:

1. Excalibur swings a spear around instead.

2. Deals guaranteed Puncture procs.

 

Edited March 9, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Since we both agree on the "radical" part, you'll understand if I'm reluctant to throw them into the OP.

 

It seems you and I have had the same basic philosophy about Frost, just approached it from different angles. 

The problem with Frost is, the CC he brings ends up being redundant in each case. You don't need a slow when you have a freeze (which is why we both suggested a knockback), but you also will rarely employ a single-target freeze when you have a radial one. The reason why I've been slow to agree with players who demand that Avalanche get a freeze is simply that it kills any chance Freeze has of being made useful, since damage or no, everyone would just spam 4 anyway to counter DE's "zerg rush" philosophy.

 

Your Phoenix Dive reminds me of a skill I wrote up for Ember a few months back to replace Fire Blast - Meteor Strike.

Toggled skill with no maximum Duration, tap it on, the user rockets in the direction of the cursor at high speed - sort of like Slash Dash, but without the proximity damage. When the effect is toggled off or the user hits an obstruction, they explode, dealing damage based on the distance traveled and leaving behind the ring of fire.

At the time I was also pushing for the ring to be made into an actual defensive skill on par with Snow Globe or Electric Shield, but it began to hit me that I was putting way too much of the frame's identity and versatility into one skill; I'm not averse to Ember getting a mobility skill to tie into World on Fire, I'm just averse to having one skill do the frame's whole job. In hindsight, I believe such an effect would be better suited as a replacement for another skill: Tail Wind. (Which to touch upon an older discussion, would certainly give the Typhoon rocket jump a purpose...)

 

The fact that Oberon is a more versatile jack-of-all-trades than Excalibur is actually sort of the point: Oberon is (archetypally) a paladin - the full kit, the whole shebang - while Excalibur is a sword (even if one of the better known). Named as the blade of the Orokin against the Sentients - not after Arthur himself. His passives and abilities should focus on giving him strengths in melee before they focus on his survivability.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Archwizard

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

To add to the volt idea: a new mechanic in generall. Make the shield follow you around and a second activate set it to the ground. This would offer both, support and a more viable melee support.

[StevesEvilTwin]

Calling Excal the "sword" of the Orokin actually gave me an idea. He doesn't have to be a sword in the literal sense of being melee based. His abilities should be a METAPHORICAL sword. Excalibur should show everything a sword represents. It's a symbol of status, being only used by well trained warriors. It's precise instrument, a scalpel not a cleaver. It's also the last line of defense for nobility and the last melee weapon to have been used in the age of guns.

Edited March 9, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[RealPandemonium]

Calling Excal the "sword" of the Orokin actually have me an idea. He doesn't have to be a sword in the literal sense of being melee based. His abilities should be a METAPHORICAL sword. Excalibur should show everything a sword represents (purity, justice, nobility etc.) in his abilities.

This is what he was supposed to be from the beginning but people have to take everything literally and pollute the feedback with drivel and armchair design.

[Archwizard]

This is what he was supposed to be from the beginning but people have to take everything literally and pollute the feedback with drivel and armchair design.

 

Oh yes, only fools think he's a sword-nut just because he's named after one, not like he's constantly pulling them out of nowhere and firing them. Clearly Mesa is better-suited for the job.

 

Besides, his strength has been built up as his mobility, which is optimal for a melee frame who lacks any particular survivability. Presently the only function he has that scales at all is the blind, which is why I suggested giving him the ability to charge up his ultimate with melee attacks.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Archwizard

[StevesEvilTwin]

Oh yes, only fools think he's a sword-nut just because he's named after one, not like he's constantly pulling them out of nowhere and firing them. Clearly Mesa is better-suited for the job.

 

Besides, his strength has been built up as his mobility, which is optimal for a melee frame who lacks any particular survivability. Presently the only function he has that scales at all is the blind, which is why I suggested giving him the ability to charge up his ultimate with melee attacks.

Um... Symbolism?

Excalibur? Mobile? Are we both talking about the same Excalibur who has below average sprint speed and two awkward movement abilities here? And besides, mobility means nothing if you still have to stand there bashing at an enemy to take them down. I'd say that Hydroid (knock down enemies to take them out quickly and carry enemies with you), Ash (invisibility stealth bonus and teleport stun), and even Zephyr (very mobile and reflects bullets) are much closer to being mobility (non-tank) based melee frames than Excalibur is.

Ironically, I'm actually gonna have to ask you to take a step back and look at the frame's original intended function (which is not as melee orientated as your comments are implying). My suggestions in the previous post are bad too, I'm not trying to push them. I think we should all reevaluate Excalibur more closely before doing anything.

[Archwizard]

Excalibur? Mobile? 

 

Note the subtle disclaimer in "been built up as". While his Slash Dash/Super Jump combo has proto-Tail Wind elements to it, I'm under no delusions that it's anywhere near as potent as those you mentioned (especially given aerial melee making Super Jump redundant, and Slash Dash's long-standing tendency to completely overshoot destinations).

 

Worth noting, however, that average sprint speed of Warframes (bar Prime frames who intentionally exceed the stat budget) is 1.07; while Excalibur is merely 1.0, I wouldn't say he's as far behind as your tone implies.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Archwizard

[StevesEvilTwin]

I am still very doubtful that Excalibur has been "built up" as a melee frame, as the potential synergy with melee that he appears to have now is mostly the result of Melee 2.0 , and his abilities were designed back in the age of charge attacks.

[Archwizard]

I am still very doubtful that Excalibur has been "built up" as a melee frame, as the potential synergy with melee that he appears to have now is mostly the result of Melee 2.0 , and his abilities were designed back in the age of charge attacks.

 

I didn't say he was built up as a melee frame, I said he was built up as a mobile one.

When it comes to RPGs, I find that melee classes usually have a choice between two of the three: Defense, Mobility, CC. Your Rogues (sans Defense), Warriors (sans CC) and Magic Knights (sans Mobility).

 

If we want to look at what the devs originally intended, we get:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jT0uD4v7r8

 

... which you might notice, a lot of the 'suggested builds' don't seem terribly practical. Lots of emphasis on "scouting" and "reconnaissance", from before Super Jump gained stealth capabilities. The mention of becoming a distraction for allies, the role a tank provides, despite only being a little more survivable than the other starters.

 

Presently, I'm a little baffled why it seems to matter to this argument when his abilities were designed, considering how much the game has changed since he was introduced anyway. You're talking about a frame who predates Saryn and what has become Contagion's pathetic excuse for a melee incentive, the pre-Nekros era when all frames were painted in broad strokes; I don't think the devs were being quite as particular back then as now (given that every frame since Vauban has focused on being "unique" and gained tinier niches to fit into, often even to their detriment).

Edited March 10, 2015 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

I am still very doubtful that Excalibur has been "built up" as a melee frame, as the potential synergy with melee that he appears to have now is mostly the result of Melee 2.0 , and his abilities were designed back in the age of charge attacks.

 

Why do we even care about charged attacks again?

 

So hes the only character resembling a ninja from the starters and were suposed to not take the abilities that have special interaction with combos *that even valkyr cant touch as of now* and say its just not a melee frame. really.

 

Also, having blind makes him an exellent melee frame, as well as 2 escape moves and an ability that ORIGINALLY used to DESTROY bosses so long as you were close enough. like, say, melee range. I dont even mean his ult!

[Xardis]

Yep, every frame should have utility.