Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

- Ice will 'synergize' with Vex Armor. Armor with some more Armor and a side of Armor, and a sprinkle of Damage Reduction.

significantly more useful than the Health Bonus IMO. remember, Effigy halves your Armor.

 

True, but armor scaling is nonlinear and diminishes in value, compared to 200 points of health being 200 points of health (which is then multiplied by armor). 

Besides, everything but Toxin synergizes with Vex Armor.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Early considerations for addition to the OP:

- Effigy initial cost reduced to 30; sentry's attack rate increased.

- Afterburn reworked: Every second which Spectral Scream strikes a surface, it lays down an elemental patch dealing (25/50/75/100) additional periodic damage for (3/4/4/5) sec.

 

Nonspecific:

Some type of reworks to the damage-portions of Toxin and Heat Wards; the health and stamina parts can probably stay as is, but their damage doesn't scale like the Cold and Electric Wards do. Preferably something with more synergy with Vex Armor for Toxin.

There's a possibility of using Heat to cauterize light wounds to go with the improved health, but I feel that would step on Oberon's toes (not to mention lacking in originality - yet another Armor tank who has to self-heal, not that there are many ways to deal with health that doesn't regen). I do like the idea of each Ward element focusing on a different potential role - Cold being tanking, Electric being CC, perhaps even Heat as support and Toxin as something else.

 

Still trying to decide how much Spectral Scream needs, if anything; it's at least useful for status application. I've been seeing complaints about how the end of Vex Ward causes a drastic drop-off, but I don't really see that as an issue; that's sort of the point of any mitigation skill, being powerful when you have it on and... not so much when it's gone. The fact that it needs to be built up in the first place is just a trade off for affecting both your mitigation and damage.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Archwizard

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

And now for something completely different!

 

I had really hoped that the U16 Excalibur LoS s***storm wouldn't corrupt this excellent thread, but I would bet my now worthless Excalibur that it's already happened.

 

Radial Javelin wasn't the only thing stealth nerfed.

 

I have recently discovered that U16 actually brought a second Excalibur stealth nerf, this one to his Radial Blind. As we all know, melee striking a blinded enemy should provide a 4x damage multiplier, with a yellow number popping up instead of a white one (although it doesn't count as a crit.) However, after U16, this is no longer the case.

 

When running a mission with my Excalibur + Scindo Prime Radial Blind melee build, I discovered that the damage numbers I was getting on blinded enemies were equal to the ones on non-blinded enemies. Thinking that I was bumping into the enemies and thus alerting them, I repeated the mission with an Orthos Prime equipped with Primed Reach, only to get the same result. I repeated the mission again with Loki, thinking maybe stealth multipliers were bugged, only to discover that I was still getting the 4x damage multiplier while invisible, eliminating all margin for error.

 

From my testing, I conclude that U16 removed the stealth multiplier feature from Radial Blind. This means that Excalibur no longer has any melee potential whatsoever. I can only hope this is a bug, otherwise it's just another pointless stealth nerf to an already weak frame. Although I love Excalibur, I didn't care too much about the Radial Javelin nerf because I use Radial Blind pretty much exclusively, but now there is literally no reason for me to use Excalibur. I guess you could say that Excalibur's stealth was stealth nerfed, or that Radial Blind was stealth nerfed in two ways. This had better be a bug.

 

What I don't get is why this would happen. If we assume this issue is a bug, and therefore unintended, then DE should fix it soon. But then again, I've been waiting for a Turbulence fix for literally months now, and Zephyr's effectiveness against Grineer is still just as BS as ever. DE has a bad habit of diligently neglecting fixes for bugs that are utterly destroying the bugged warframes.

 

I'm never forgiving you for not fixing Turbulence, DE.

 

And now I'm getting off topic. Then again, if this is another stealth nerf, it's an absolutely stupid and disgraceful move by DE to deliberately make Excalibur useless to anyone and everyone, even those who don't Radial Javelin such as myself, and then not even put the changes in the patch notes.

 

If it's a bug, it may never get fixed, a la Turbulence. If it's intended, then DE is even more stupid than previously thought. Even if I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a bug, DE still might not ever fix it, as with Turbulence.

 

Because of this bug/nerf, I can now come to the conclusion that Excalibur is completely and totally useless to every single Warframe player, even the ones not using Radial Javelin.

[Azamagon]

Early considerations for addition to the OP:

- Effigy initial cost reduced to 30; sentry's attack rate increased.

- Afterburn reworked: Every second which Spectral Scream strikes a surface, it lays down an elemental patch dealing (25/50/75/100) additional periodic damage for (3/4/4/5) sec.

 

Nonspecific:

Some type of reworks to the damage-portions of Toxin and Heat Wards; the health and stamina parts can probably stay as is, but their damage doesn't scale like the Cold and Electric Wards do. Preferably something with more synergy with Vex Armor for Toxin.

There's a possibility of using Heat to cauterize light wounds to go with the improved health, but I feel that would step on Oberon's toes (not to mention lacking in originality - yet another Armor tank who has to self-heal, not that there are many ways to deal with health that doesn't regen). I do like the idea of each Ward element focusing on a different potential role - Cold being tanking, Electric being CC, perhaps even Heat as support and Toxin as something else.

 

Still trying to decide how much Spectral Scream needs, if anything; it's at least useful for status application. I've been seeing complaints about how the end of Vex Ward causes a drastic drop-off, but I don't really see that as an issue; that's sort of the point of any mitigation skill, being powerful when you have it on and... not so much when it's gone. The fact that it needs to be built up in the first place is just a trade off for affecting both your mitigation and damage.

Some thoughts on your thoughts :P

 

- Effigy is quite underwhelming. Imo, it should do something IMMEDIATELY as it is summoned (the knockback thing?) and likewise something happening when it ends (considering how it locks Chroma briefly in place while doing so, just a radial stagger would suffice imo). I'd even like to be able to move it around, or if it followed you around like if it was a Sentinel (but with a longer "leash"), and then being able to command where it should stay by using the waypointer (no waypoint = it follows you again). Or at least that it has some unlimited range projectiles too, which are spewed out every couple of seconds while it uses its Spectral Scream.

Something I think would be cool too, but far from necessary, just to further make it feel more interactive, would be if when the Chroma player uses his abilities the Effigy gets an immedate non-interrupted similar command / shared buffing. Such as; when you cast Spectral Scream, so does the Effigy (which then produces those homing projectiles) etc

 

- Afterburn: I'd rather keep this mod more or less as it is (Although, give it bigger AoE, no more prolonging of deactivating Spectral Scream and a forced proc on everyone in the AoE and we're good!). What you suggested as a rework for Afterburn, I'd rather that was how Spectral Scream was baseline more or less, giving it clinging and stacking "burn" (attaching both on enemies and the environment) to it no matter what element it is, with each tick of the clinging DoT having a chance to proc the element of choice as well! This makes duration valuable for his first ability too AND makes it bit more useful other than being an extremely underwhelming Ignis (since it would do something even AFTER you turn it off).

 

- Heat/Toxin Wards - Agreed that they need something else.

Heat giving some nice health regen (so going for lesser duration isn't as promoted as it is right now) sounds like a great idea, even if it seems unoriginal.

Toxin could do something more unique... like something related to stealth/camoflague perhaps (like Itzal's Penumbra the "be stationary and you are stealthed" ability?)? As someone pointed out in another thread, that's usually how poison/green dragons work in other games. But how that would work with Vex Armor, i dunno. It gives you breathing room in a unique way at least, which is heavily needed for Toxic, considering it has ZERO CC to its elemental procs.

 

And another note; Vex Armor is good, but is it just me who finds it kinda boring? I mean, all it does is give you numerical stats (albeit good chunks of it), it just doesn't really feel all too interactive to me. Your thoughts on that?

 

EDIT: Oh, and another thing - Something that would be cool would be if the Effigy Sentry also gained all the buffs that Chroma has (wether gained before or after Effigy is cast). Then Vex Armor, in particular, could have a cool interaction: Its provided Scorn and Fury buffs could be linked between them, so if either of Chroma or the Sentry gets hurt, then BOTH of them gets the respective bonuses at the same time!

Edited March 29, 2015 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

- Afterburn: I'd rather keep this mod more or less as it is (Although, give it bigger AoE, no more prolonging of deactivating Spectral Scream and a forced proc on everyone in the AoE and we're good!). What you suggested as a rework for Afterburn, I'd rather that was how Spectral Scream was baseline more or less, giving it clinging and stacking "burn" (attaching both on enemies and the environment) to it no matter what element it is, with each tick of the clinging DoT having a chance to proc the element of choice as well! This makes duration valuable for his first ability too AND makes it bit more useful other than being an extremely underwhelming Ignis (since it would do something even AFTER you turn it off).

 

Also a possibility, but after seeing the augment in action, it seems that your only real option to improve Afterburn as it is now is to recycle Fireball, while it presently functions too similarly to Freeze 1.0.

This way, Spectral Scream could remain as the CC of his arsenal while the augment would shift focus toward its damage.

 

Toxin could do something more unique... like something related to stealth/camoflague perhaps (like Itzal's Penumbra the "be stationary and you are stealthed" ability?)? As someone pointed out in another thread, that's usually how poison/green dragons work in other games. But how that would work with Vex Armor, i dunno. It gives you breathing room in a unique way at least, which is heavily needed for Toxic, considering it has ZERO CC to its elemental procs.

 

I thought about that - the idea of a lurking serpent, staying underground or in the tall grass and striking out at anything that gets too close - but any sort of avoidance technique would actively work against Vex Armor (albeit perhaps working better with Effigy, which would recycle Loki's shtick).

 

EDIT: Oh, and another thing - Something that would be cool would be if the Effigy Sentry also gained all the buffs that Chroma has (wether gained before or after Effigy is cast). Then Vex Armor, in particular, could have a cool interaction: Its provided Scorn and Fury buffs could be linked between them, so if either of Chroma or the Sentry gets hurt, then BOTH of them gets the respective bonuses at the same time!

 

Shoot, I forgot that I wanted to change Vex Armor to include ability damage, to better integrate Spectral Scream.

[Azamagon]

Also a possibility, but after seeing the augment in action, it seems that your only real option to improve Afterburn as it is now is to recycle Fireball, while it presently functions too similarly to Freeze 1.0.

This way, Spectral Scream could remain as the CC of his arsenal while the augment would shift focus toward its damage.

 

 

I thought about that - the idea of a lurking serpent, staying underground or in the tall grass and striking out at anything that gets too close - but any sort of avoidance technique would actively work against Vex Armor (albeit perhaps working better with Effigy, which would recycle Loki's shtick).

 

 

Shoot, I forgot that I wanted to change Vex Armor to include ability damage, to better integrate Spectral Scream.

Well, at least Spectral Scream AND Afterburn both needs buffing, that's for certain.

 

Ah, but if you had stealth with Toxic Ward, Vex Armor doesn't necessarily go against him: Remember that I suggested that the Effigy also has shared and linked buffs with Chroma (or at the absolute least shares Vex Armor)? Well, then the Effigy takes all the heat while Chroma is stealthing, thus it takes all damage, which causes the Effigy to build up Fury from Vex Armor, and thus ALSO gives Chroma the same Fury! A Toxic build is thus a stealth and a distraction+indirect buffing style. So it could still work somewhat nicely :)

 

Yeah, Vex Armor increasing his ability damage too would be downright necessary, considering Spectral Scream's lacklusterness.

[Archwizard]

Heat giving some nice health regen (so going for lesser duration isn't as promoted as it is right now) sounds like a great idea, even if it seems unoriginal.

 

Another point: Electric and Cold scale to the incoming damage. The question being, is there a way to make a healing effect scale to damage without A) overshadowing Oberon, B) copying Trinity and C) being blatantly overpowered.

I suppose the way to do it is to provide low healing and some other scaling effect... I would worry about overloading the effect, except I've seen the Cold Ward reflect rockets.

 

Ah, but if you had stealth with Toxic Ward, Vex Armor doesn't necessarily go against him: Remember that I suggested that the Effigy also has shared and linked buffs with Chroma (or at the absolute least shares Vex Armor)? Well, then the Effigy takes all the heat while Chroma is stealthing, thus it takes all damage, which causes the Effigy to build up Fury from Vex Armor, and thus ALSO gives Chroma the same Fury! A Toxic build is thus a stealth and a distraction+indirect buffing style. So it could still work somewhat nicely :)

 

Except:

 

1) Effigy has 8000 health before mods. Being able to receive stacks of Vex Armor from it would be way, way too powerful.

2) It forces Effigy into the same role as Molt and Decoy - particularly the former, since it hits back. You'd basically just have to max Efficiency, tap Toxin Ward and Effigy, and let the Effigy do the mission for you - until it dies, and you recast it. Not the kind of gameplay we want to promote.

3) This still has no tie-in to the Toxin damage type.

 

I had really hoped that the U16 Excalibur LoS s***storm wouldn't corrupt this excellent thread, but I would bet my now worthless Excalibur that it's already happened.

 

Ironically, we've basically just been discussing Chroma since U16. No recent mention of Excal till... you.

[Elydir]

Something that bugs me about the Elemental Ward, the Fire Ward says how much damage it deals with the burn procs, while the Toxin one doesnt but still inflicts poison. Did they just overload the Toxin one too much with the stamina efficiency, or did they shortchange the Fire one?

[Archwizard]

More considerations for Chroma:

 

- Spectral Scream is treated as a weapon (a la Peacemaker) for the purposes of Vex Armor, Shooting Gallery, etc.

- Elemental Ward
--> Heat: Status chance increased to 25%, and Chroma is healed for 5% of his maximum health every second (unaffected by mods).

 

Sort of a rock and a hard place for Toxin, really. The element just screams "avoidance" with everything from green dragons camouflaging in foliage to serpents lurking in caves and tall grass, but the skill and his overall playstyle are set up to penalize enemies for hitting him, not to outright make it harder for them to.

The backup to that would be having it deal Toxin damage when the Tenno deals an attack, but then that just seems like a better Contagion.

 

Considering having Heat or Toxin deal scaling radial damage upon receiving a hit, since Cold and Electric leave that option out.

 

Something that bugs me about the Elemental Ward, the Fire Ward says how much damage it deals with the burn procs, while the Toxin one doesnt but still inflicts poison. Did they just overload the Toxin one too much with the stamina efficiency, or did they shortchange the Fire one?

 

Likely the latter.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Archwizard

[Scherhardt]

Volt

Have Overload give extra chain damage if enemies have shock status from electricity.

Since Shock has 100% status chance it will have very good synergy with Overload.

That way Shock will be more useful late game other than its stun and Overload won't be as mediocre.

 

Would suggest the augment Shock Trooper to give longer status duration than giving electricity damage to allies.

Or increase chain targets or both.

 

Sorry for posting such a random idea.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Scherhardt

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

Meep

Edited September 11, 2017 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[RealPandemonium]

 

Volt

Have Overload give extra chain damage if enemies have shock status from electricity.

Since Shock has 100% status chance it will have very good synergy with Overload.

That way Shock will be more useful late game other than its stun and Overload won't be as mediocre.

 

Would suggest the augment Shock Trooper to give longer status duration than giving electricity damage to allies.

Or increase chain targets or both.

 

Sorry for posting such a random idea.

 

Volt should have an augment that makes Shock pull all of its targets together.  That way Overload (and further Shocks) will do much more damage due to overlapping procs.  

[Scherhardt]

Volt should have an augment that makes Shock pull all of its targets together.  That way Overload (and further Shocks) will do much more damage due to overlapping procs.  

Hmm, i think thats too much. We don't want volt to be an all-in-one.

Leave CC to the other frames.

You can always maximize your damage with proper positioning.

[taiiat]

However because of the outcry for nerfs from very vocal elements of the community. In the name of balance of course. Many mods, abilities and weapons have been nerfed to equal the playing field. Ironically because of this loadouts for frames have become more limited.

that is an internet misconception.

certain Abilities on Certain Warframes defeating the entire existence of some other Warframes is not a good thing.

you might want the character that you think looks cool to do everything at once, but that defeats the purpose of having multiple Warframes.

[RealPandemonium]

Hmm, i think thats too much. We don't want volt to be an all-in-one.

Leave CC to the other frames.

You can always maximize your damage with proper positioning.

Volt's CC is already a focus; this would allow him to get more damage from his abilities without explicitly buffing their numbers and it would be balanced by requiring a mod slot.  

[(PSN)sammyp03]

Remove the flat damage from oberons reckoning. Have it do damage % based on the amount of damage the target has taken. that way it scales

Edited April 1, 2015 by (PS4)sammyp03

[Scherhardt]

Volt's CC is already a focus; this would allow him to get more damage from his abilities without explicitly buffing their numbers and it would be balanced by requiring a mod slot.  

I think we have different takes on CC. 

To me CC is something to hold or compress enemies in an area.

You might have meant CC as damage dealer.

[RealPandemonium]

I think we have different takes on CC. 

To me CC is something to hold or compress enemies in an area.

You might have meant CC as damage dealer.

Overload stuns everything in a radius for a few seconds (more if there are electronics available) and Shock delivers a spammable, reliable on-demand stun to one or more targets and can be used while firing and reloading.

[taiiat]

I think we have different takes on CC.

To me CC is something to hold or compress enemies in an area.

You might have meant CC as damage dealer.

Crowd Control isn't Damage.

Damage is Damage.

Crowd Control is anything to manipulate your Enemies without primarily Killing them.

that includes anything that moves, slows, stuns, disables, or any other non lethal effect.

[Scherhardt]

Crowd Control isn't Damage.

Damage is Damage.

Crowd Control is anything to manipulate your Enemies without primarily Killing them.

that includes anything that moves, slows, stuns, disables, or any other non lethal effect.

I know. I'm saying that "some" people regard CC as damage.

Probably those who aren't familiar with MMOs

 

Overload stuns everything in a radius for a few seconds (more if there are electronics available) and Shock delivers a spammable, reliable on-demand stun to one or more targets and can be used while firing and reloading..

Not a few seconds its more like 1.5 second stun. And that was on initial cast only, you have to wait for the shock effect to wear off so you can stun them again. I cannot say that it is stun on demand since you have to wait a few more seconds.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

I know. I'm saying that "some" people regard CC as damage.

Probably those who aren't familiar with MMOs

 

Not a few seconds its more like 1.5 second stun. And that was on initial cast only, you have to wait for the shock effect to wear off so you can stun them again. I cannot say that it is stun on demand since you have to wait a few more seconds.

 

It would be interesting to see a mod-able stun duration on overload. The stun is quite short for a ultimate.

Edited April 2, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Noble_Cactus]

I know. I'm saying that "some" people regard CC as damage.

Probably those who aren't familiar with MMOs

 

Not a few seconds its more like 1.5 second stun. And that was on initial cast only, you have to wait for the shock effect to wear off so you can stun them again. I cannot say that it is stun on demand since you have to wait a few more seconds.

 

Damage can be a form of crowd control. If you're killing groups of enemies, you're preventing them from hurting you and your teammates. That in itself is CC, and it's a definition agreed upon by several individuals I know who have raided seriously across various MMORPGs.

 

What most people consider crowd control abilities are more accurately called Disables: stuns, sleeps, fears, blinds, snares, and other abilities that proc status effects or create environmental effects that hinder enemy movement and action. Or if you want to get all old school about it, these abilities are also called Mezzes, as in mesmerize.

 

–

 

Also hehehehe they chose to not give Overload the arcing stun augment welp

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

-Amended-

 

I wonder why DE is so hesitant to enhance overloads CC effects or general DPS. A lot of people seem to think it needs something. At the moment it isn't terrible but doesn't seem to scale as Damage and its CC isn't great to begin with. Prime volt release would of been the best time to announce a fix.

Edited April 2, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Scherhardt]

Damage can be a form of crowd control. If you're killing groups of enemies, you're preventing them from hurting you and your teammates. That in itself is CC, and it's a definition agreed upon by several individuals I know who have raided seriously across various MMORPGs.

 

What most people consider crowd control abilities are more accurately called Disables: stuns, sleeps, fears, blinds, snares, and other abilities that proc status effects or create environmental effects that hinder enemy movement and action. Or if you want to get all old school about it, these abilities are also called Mezzes, as in mesmerize.

 

–

 

Also hehehehe they chose to not give Overload the arcing stun augment welp

CC is such a general term, it gets confusing sometimes.

 

hehe capacitance welpp

 

^Wow. He referred to someone in a internet forum as welp...^

 

Cant we all just get along.

Calm down. You misunderstood him. 

He meant welp as he has nothing more to say.

[Noble_Cactus]

CC is such a general term, it gets confusing sometimes.

 

 

Yeah, that's true. I just get nitpicky when it comes to terms like that.

 

^Wow. He referred to someone in a internet forum as welp...^

 

[tyson]

 

Cant we all just get along.

 

...What?

 

I wasn't referring to anyone when I said welp. Sorry if my hyphen didn't make the separation between the two parts of my post clear; I was just commenting on how adding an arcing stun effect to Overload is a type of idea that's been proposed in many threads such as these, and DE didn't add it anyway. Ah well.

 

–

 

Aslo Capacitance is a funny word.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Noble_Cactus