Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

i'm sure Zephyr is part 'Birdframe' and part 'Windframe'.

has some features that fit in with both.

[Archwizard]

I'd personally prefer to have this pseudo-flight ability over Typhoon, mainly because Typhoon requires you to interrupt firing to keep yourself airborne. 

 

Never said Typhoon would interrupt fire... although I suppose I never clarified it was a one-handed cast either. I'll add that to the OP.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Archwizard

[SmilingMad]

Never said Typhoon would interrupt fire... although I suppose I never clarified it was a one-handed cast either. I'll add that to the OP.

It's more that I understood from it that you had to aim it, so if you want to stay in the same general area you'd have to look down every now and then.

[Archwizard]

Took me three months, but it's finally on the front page of a stream thread.

 

Can you address up the disproportionate use of Desecrate by Nekros players, according to your By the Numbers data?

 

Although I am presently pondering if I should expand it, to something like "Why is it that you nerf farming compositions (like Vivergate), but still tolerate/encourage the use of Desecrate?"

Hopefully they'll figure out the subtext.

[Azamagon]

Took me three months, but it's finally on the front page of a stream thread.

 

 

Although I am presently pondering if I should expand it, to something like "Why is it that you nerf farming compositions (like Vivergate), but still tolerate/encourage the use of Desecrate?"

Hopefully they'll figure out the subtext.

Be clear, imo. They aren't that bright :P

[Scherhardt]

Be clear, imo. They aren't that bright :P

Or they are trying to make the game artificially longer.

[Archwizard]

Remove the flat damage from oberons reckoning. Have it do damage % based on the amount of damage the target has taken. that way it scales

 

As he's become more and more of a jack-of-all-trades, it feels a bit out of place to have the skill deal scaling damage before any others...

 

However... this does make me consider something about Soul Punch. It would certainly simplify things, fit the theme, justify being mostly single-target, work well with his ultimate, and encourage the use of Viral abilities/damage if his first skill dealt more damage to low-health targets...

Then you could save the "soul rip" effect for some other type of frame (I stole it from a Time frame concept I wrote up and never published)...

[Gemini_Jenvas]

I hope they will fix some other frames that are really not what they should be

Edited April 11, 2015 by Jenvas1306

[Archwizard]

Since I have a tendency to make notes when a devstream comes up...

 

"Excalibur rework? Well he committed to reworking Frost first, but found way more Excalibur feedback to make him into a melee frame. Depends heavily on animation, but…

-          They’re going to redo Slash Dash. Remember the Archwing melee? It’ll be more like that, jumping between targets in a cone. They’ll implement premature canceling via melee, too.

-          Radial Blind will be usable on the move and open targets to Finishers.

-          Super Jump is probably gone, since it’s horrendously obsolete. Radial Javelin will be his third.

-          His new ultimate is based on forum suggestions. It’ll be a new energy sword stance for Excalibur, like Hysteria, but every hit will cause an energy wave straight out of anime (or Zelda)."

 

So... basically Valkyr, alright then.

[Noble_Cactus]

Unless it gets some kind of insane damage multiplier or added utility, this new Power Wave/DMC sword wave move is going to suffer in higher levels :/ It's a bit disappointing when players can already predict that before they even see the move purely because of how scaling in this game works.

 

At least it sounds like it will have some neat visual effects.

[Archwizard]

Unless it gets some kind of insane damage multiplier or added utility, this new Power Wave/DMC sword wave move is going to suffer in higher levels :/ It's a bit disappointing when players can already predict that before they even see the move purely because of how scaling in this game works.

 

At least it sounds like it will have some neat visual effects.

 

Well, let me just throw this out there -

 

Let's say that his ultimate's wave attacks have a cone of effect that expands the further an enemy is from you, and they have punch through. This would allow rapid stacking of the combo multiplier.

Now let's assume that you can still use Slash Dash while the ultimate is active, as you can during Hysteria. You dart between opponents and fire off a wave on every hit. At any point in the cone of effect, you can fire off another cone. 

Now let's say Radial Javelin, as in the OP, benefits from and clears the combo damage multiplier.

 

See where I'm going with this? It doesn't need to be powerful on its own if it can facilitate the other powers being incredibly powerful.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

Well, let me just throw this out there -

 

Let's say that his ultimate's wave attacks have a cone of effect that expands the further an enemy is from you, and they have punch through. This would allow rapid stacking of the combo multiplier.

Now let's assume that you can still use Slash Dash while the ultimate is active, as you can during Hysteria. You dart between opponents and fire off a wave on every hit. At any point in the cone of effect, you can fire off another cone. 

Now let's say Radial Javelin, as in the OP, benefits from and clears the combo damage multiplier.

 

See where I'm going with this?

 

 

Ooh. Now that's some nice synergy. I hope it ends up working like this. I missed most of the devstream, so I don't know if they said the energy waves would add to the combo multiplier (though I imagine they would).

[Azamagon]

Well, let me just throw this out there -

 

Let's say that his ultimate's wave attacks have a cone of effect that expands the further an enemy is from you, and they have punch through. This would allow rapid stacking of the combo multiplier.

Now let's assume that you can still use Slash Dash while the ultimate is active, as you can during Hysteria. You dart between opponents and fire off a wave on every hit. At any point in the cone of effect, you can fire off another cone. 

Now let's say Radial Javelin, as in the OP, benefits from and clears the combo damage multiplier.

 

See where I'm going with this? It doesn't need to be powerful on its own if it can facilitate the other powers being incredibly powerful.

Gimme gimme gimme! :D

The ulti + Slash Dash combo sounds in particular sounds like a nasty combo to clear hallways, and would be an amazing way to make Slash Dash scale well.

 

Just a silly thought: What if finishers with the ulti-sword did huge circle-wave-slashes? Then Radial Blind also fits into the kit as far as making combos go. Radial Blind while ulti is on could also do something extra, whatever that may be

[taiiat]

-snip-

that would be neat, i suppose.

'Sword Waves' are totally not an 'Anime' thing though. they took the idea from much older things :/ (like Zelda, and quite a few others).

but anyways.

as long as there is control to those, it can be beneficial.

unfortunately, i'm expecting Animation Lock for days, which will result in lots of dead Tenno as they attempt to be skillful with their gameplay. so hopefully better than Hysteria, because Hysteria is not exactly an example of technical excellence in the execution aspect.

those Energy Waves also better have high Slash Status. very appropriate for the theme.

[Archwizard]

'Sword Waves' are totally not an 'Anime' thing though. they took the idea from much older things :/ (like Zelda, and quite a few others).

but anyways.

 

Fair enough, I just mentally default to InuYasha's Wind Scar.

[taiiat]

Fair enough, I just mentally default to InuYasha's Wind Scar.

ideas that are interesting, different, or 'good' are often reused, which is fine.

but just like i get sort've frowny face and facepalm just a little bit if someone sees Kappa - Sedna and says 'omg they made a Twitch reference *giggle* (which, to clarify because i don't want more people thinking that - that's K in the Greek Alphabet, just like most of the Nodes on the Solar Map, which are named after Greek Mythology, Norse Mythology, Eastern idealologies, Et Cetera), identifying the inspiration for something is more complicated than comparing two apples and deciding them being similar makes them directly connected. inspiration can come from many places, and we don't really know the actual source.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

-snip-

Edited April 13, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[taiiat]

Desecrate has already been nerfed to the point of uselessness for framing anyway. Restriction have been placed so rarer resources such as nerodes , neuro sensors and so on will not spawn from desecrate on almost all sectors & void.

this is false speculation.

loot multiplication does not remove anything from it's pools.

multiplying your Rolls on L00t Tables does not mean you WILL get the rarest options in them. it means you're rolling the dice more often.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

-snip-

Edited April 13, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[taiiat]

once every 30 waves or every 4th wave.

*sigh*

that's not what it's saying. it's a subjective note of someone's personal experiences saying that they seem to average one per 30 Waves.

this is an average, and not a hard number. it's from subjective gameplay, and therefore should be taken with a shovel full of salt.

honestly, i probably should delete that sentence because it's subjective opinion and has no place on the Wiki, but i think for now i'll just add a disclaimer to it's non objectiveness.

-

so there, now that Neurodes Article has Disclaimers on it. maybe that will help you.

you're reading all of that information incorrectly and out of context.

there is no hardcoded limit to Resources. one will not fall from the sky on Wave 30 and you won't always get 0 until Wave 30.

that's not how this works. if you want to believe that, don't try to tell other people lies.

good day.

Edited April 11, 2015 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

Please don't derail the thread with ad hominem and biography.

 

The short version of this argument goeth thus: Desecrate is based on layers of RNG - does the target drop health orbs, does the target reroll the drop table, is the additional drop not "nothing" (and then beyond that, is the additional loot something you want, although this is subjective). Properly testing its average would require literal hundreds of tests. "On the average", the forums have had no more complaints about the output of Desecrate than usual, leading me to believe there were no such changes; if it were true, we'd be seeing several complaints, and ItWasntMeIPromise is the first to make one.

 

Sometimes I can bring Nekros or Hydroid to a Defense/Survival run, stick around for an hour and still get a grand total of 1 Argon Crystal; sometimes I can forget either one and end up with a dozen crystals. There are players who get supposedly 'rare' items from the Void on their first try. Such is the nature of RNG, wholly capable of polarization.

 

This is why Desecrate should not be an ability. Not only are its effects unreliable, but countering this often requires casting it several times to the point of excluding other actions. It relies on luck, rather than rewarding skill.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

Double drop chance may seem like a lot but not when the initial chance to drop the desired resource was less then 1% to begin with.

thereygo. that's all that really matters there. the rest is speculation.

if you roll a D20, and it rolls a 1, and you roll 3 of them now, and all three get a 1, that doesn't mean that it's always going to roll a 1, nor does it mean that your increased rolls were pointless.

the Chance for Rare Resources is most definitely much lower than the others - but to be expected since they're classified as 'Rare' (lol @ Morphics & Control Modules and partial lol @ Gallium). multiplying a low number by a low number, and you get... a low number! :D

it's all good though. i'm sure you just were looking for Neurodes for a while, and being frustrated at the systems, with how random they are. all i can recommend is to focus on 'hardcore grinding' less, so you don't need to experience that. if you're Leveling Equipment or w/e, just play Missions on a variety of locations, and you'll end up with lots of Resources over time, while you were focusing on doing other things.

i do exactly this, playing Missions in various places whenever i'm Leveling Equipment or some other sort of stuff. and it all just comes in it's own time then. because of this, my.... Inventory is overflowing with every type of Resource. without me pulling my hair out about it.

frankly, it's a shame that 2/3 'Planets' to get Neurodes from are Infested. because Infested have a pretty poor drop rate for useful things, to compensate for their much larger number of Enemies at a time.

with the last third being a Lv1 Planet which is pretty boring to play on. :/

(also, if you look for Rare Resources on Planets which do not have a Common Resource, you should notice it's 'easier' to get the Rare Resources. the Common Resources generally screw you due to them being so Common. yno, Weighted Chances.)

- - - - -

anyways, to get a little more on topic.

Slash Dash being some sort of 'automatic Tenno Pinball mode' scares me. mainly due to the automatic part of it.

press button, watch screen is not engaging gameplay. it's like Bladestorm. it looks pretty the first few times, but eventually you just want to be playing the game, rather than pressing a button that is like turning on Autopilot.

:s

Edited April 11, 2015 by taiiat

[Azamagon]

Please don't derail the thread with ad hominem and biography.

 

The short version of this argument goeth thus: Desecrate is based on layers of RNG - does the target drop health orbs, does the target reroll the drop table, is the additional drop not "nothing" (and then beyond that, is the additional loot something you want, although this is subjective). Properly testing its average would require literal hundreds of tests. "On the average", the forums have had no more complaints about the output of Desecrate than usual, leading me to believe there were no such changes; if it were true, we'd be seeing several complaints, and ItWasntMeIPromise is the first to make one.

 

Sometimes I can bring Nekros or Hydroid to a Defense/Survival run, stick around for an hour and still get a grand total of 1 Argon Crystal; sometimes I can forget either one and end up with a dozen crystals. There are players who get supposedly 'rare' items from the Void on their first try. Such is the nature of RNG, wholly capable of polarization.

 

This is why Desecrate should not be an ability. Not only are its effects unreliable, but countering this often requires casting it several times to the point of excluding other actions. It relies on luck, rather than rewarding skill.

You know, considering Pilfering Swarm, I find it extremely unlikely that Desecrate (and Pilfering Swarm) will go away, unfortunately.

I'd like it to go away too, but DE seem stubborn about this ability and similar effects to stay.

 

That said, I don't think it seems unlikely that they could at least ADD something to Desecrate so it does something else as well. Just an example:

 

Desecrate 2.0

Steps an area around Nekros with a powerful desecrated ground (similar to Hallowed Ground, but in a circular fashion). Every second an enemy is within this area, their CURRENT health is reduced by 1/2/3/4% (bosses take a reduced amount of damage for balance). Enemies dieing in the Desecrate area (or putting a Desecrate on top of already existing corpses) have a 100% chance to drop a health orb and has X% chance to drop additional loot. Multiple grounds can be cast, but their effects don't stack.

Power Strength affects the health drain and possibly also the loot chance?

Power Range affects the size of the ground

Power Duration affects the duration of the ground

Augment remains as it is.

 

Now it at least has a function and scales very well + synergizes with that thought of yours that Soul Punch deals more damage the less health the enemy currently has. If you combine it with that idea of mine, that the soul rip on Soul Punch also anchors the target, so it can't move far away from its projected soul, well, awesomesauce synergy! :D

 

@ taiiat:

I hope the Slash Dash still does what it does currently, allowing you to use it as mobility (as in, it lands you where it would've landed you with Slash Dash 1.0, wether you hit enemies or not), just that enemies caught in his travel cone are jumped to, rather than simply dashed through. That would keep its mobility aspect while also being able to synergize better with his ultimate, a la Archwizard's thoughts, and to make it feel different from Rhino Charge and Tidal Surge.

At least I HOPE that's how it works :/

[Archwizard]

You know, considering Pilfering Swarm, I find it extremely unlikely that Desecrate (and Pilfering Swarm) will go away, unfortunately.

I'd like it to go away too, but DE seem stubborn about this ability and similar effects to stay.

 

Pilfering Swarm may seem like it runs on the same principle, but it's actually quite different.

 

The reward structure for it is conditional, but in a manner that is easily predicted - meaning that you can use it in a particular manner for the intended outcome (namely, "My ultimate must get the killing blow"). Yes, you could just spam Tentacle Swarm on the target... but the fact that it has a durational nature means you won't be doing so to the same extent as Desecrate, and still have opportunities to act while it's active (even if it's entirely likely that you're just going to go back to your puddle; that's your prerogative).

The fact that this condition requires coordination from your allies makes it unlikely to be exploited; nobody wants a loot b&%$h who imposes on your kill count, and some of the enemies with the greatest reward can't be killed by it anyway.

It really just highlights the point I've been making: Everybody wants a Nekros spamming Desecrate in the background because it doesn't cost them anything; few want to be one. Everyone would want to be in the place of the Hydroid; nobody would want one playing for them. The irony is delicious.

 

Is it still a looting skill? Sure, no denying that. But it's structured in a manner that it actually rewards you for using the skill tactfully (which is also sort of the point of the better augments), rather than becoming the sole gimmick of the class.

 

I'm not entirely happy with it either, but it's still more deserving than Desecrate

Edited April 11, 2015 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

Pilfering Swarm may seem like it runs on the same principle, but it's actually quite different.

 

The reward structure for it is conditional, but in a manner that is easily predicted - meaning that you can use it in a particular manner for the intended outcome (namely, "My ultimate must get the killing blow"). Yes, you could just spam Tentacle Swarm on the target... but the fact that it has a durational nature means you won't be doing so to the same extent as Desecrate, and still have opportunities to act while it's active (even if it's entirely likely that you're just going to go back to your puddle; that's your prerogative).

The fact that this condition requires coordination from your allies makes it unlikely to be exploited; nobody wants a loot b&%$h who imposes on your kill count, and some of the enemies with the greatest reward can't be killed by it anyway.

It really just highlights the point I've been making: Everybody wants a Nekros spamming Desecrate in the background because it doesn't cost them anything; few want to be one. Everyone would want to be the Hydroid; nobody would want one stealing their kills.

 

Is it still a looting skill? Sure, no denying that. But it's structured in a manner that it actually rewards you for using the skill tactfully (which is also sort of the point of the better augments), rather than becoming the sole gimmick of the class.

 

I'm not entirely happy with it either, but it's still more deserving than Desecrate

If I understood you correctly, then you'd probably hate what I'd like to suggest for Pilfering Swarm, so it can work on higher levels too without relying on getting the kill - I'd like it go give its loot bonus if the enemies die by the tentacles or if they die by any means while being grabbed by them. Otherwise, it will likely remain as his most spammed ability (along with hiding in Undertow). Sure, it might still be so with my suggestion, but he would be able to do other stuff too, not being afraid to shoot / use other abilities to kill grappled enemies, nor would anyone be sad if they kill a grappled enemy and missing out on a potential loot bonus. After all, you did say that you don't want to promote Hydroid as a killstealer...

 

The point I'm trying to make: I'd rather make it so BOTH Desecrate and (Pilfering) Tentacle Swarm have uses beyond their loot granting properties, but said loot granting properties kind of "just happen" and is a secondary bonus. The reason you should want Desecrate is for health, ammo and the scalable damage (like in my suggestion). The reason you want Tentacle Swarm is for the CC and damage, Pilfering Swarm would just add a nice and reliable loot bonus to it too.

Sure, removing the loot bonuses would be even better, but as I said, DE seem very stubborn about keeping them, thus the reason why I'd like to give them loot bonuses AND something else. The "something else" is what should be their main selling point though.