Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[BeardyKyle]

Oberon has 150 armor base. That comes out to 150/450 = 33.3% damage reduction. 10% of this is 15 armor.

Armor Prot Mult HP

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

150 33.33% 1.50x (Inactive)

165 35.48% 1.55x (Solo)

180 37.50% 1.60x

195 39.39% 1.65x

210 41.18% 1.70x (Party of 4)

225 42.86% 1.75x

240 44.44% 1.80x

255 45.95% 1.85x

270 47.37% 1.90x (Raid of 8)

As you can see here, the actual effective health gain per affected target is 3.3%, capping out at 13.3% for a party of 4. Compared to most sources of mitigation just to start with, it's pretty weak - and remember, Warcry gives 50% armor off the bat, on a frame with 600 armor to start with.

With maximum armor mods (Steel Fiber and Armored Agility), that's 382.5/682.5 = ~56% damage reduction. 10% of this is ~38 armor.

Armor Prot Mult HP

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

382 56.01% 2.27x (Inactive)

420 58.33% 2.40x (Solo)

458 60.42% 2.53x

496 62.31% 2.65x

534 64.03% 2.78x (Party of 4)

572 65.60% 2.91x

610 67.03% 3.03x

648 68.35% 3.16x

686 69.57% 3.29x (Raid of 8)

Technically it should go to 688 but my calculator doesn't take decimals well for the moment. A margin of 2 armor points is functionally insignificant.

Bit better here, with an effective health gain closer to 5% per target, but this is with you throwing in everything short of Power Strength mods.

Yes, it's better than Oberon has now, but with his low armor base, playing into his armor is rather small pickings.

Thanks for the math. Yeah, I realize it isn't significant when compared to the true tanks but it definitely is an upgrade. Like you said you didn't account for strength mods which would affect that 10% increase per ally, and also didn't include the buff from combining this change to renewal with that of 40% damage reduction from my suggested hg change, which also scales with strength mods. Lets not forget obi is already a pseudo-tank with his current healing ability. This just allowa him to take that into higher levels.

[Marbelik]

Is this post only to buff/tweak warframe abilities? Or also about stats?

 

If its also about stats it would be good to give some increased stats to Oberon and Volt. Oberon because it is supposed to be somewhat a tanky healer, right now it doesnt have almost any armor. About the healing part i like the changes proposed here about Oberon. About Volt because its Prime counterpart is way to much buffed in comparison to normal Volt, i know Primed warframes must have a toned up buffs but comparing almost every other Primed warframe with its normal one Volt really falls back.

 

Volt Prime has 100 armor, while Volt has only 15. Volt Prime has 200 base energy, while Volt has 100. Just changing normal Volt armor to like 65 (a number most warframes now have) and energy to 150 it wouldnt feel very weak in comparison to its Primed counterpart.

[FelisImpurrator]

Hey Arch, did you ever take a look at my second round of response re: Nezha etc.?

 

Also, either way, would absolutely go for buffing Volt base's armor to 65/pool to 150 to bring him in line, was just thinking about that the other day.

[(PSN)devack13]

How could it be that I've never seen this post until now? And now it's popular? The same thing goes for the loot manipulation post that has gone up in fame not too long ago it's like people suddenly actually care about the state of the game, well you have my vote 

 

 

Edit: I now realize that might sound rude to some people, i'm sorry. I've been playing warframe for a little under two years and have barely ever seen DE really improve much. Don't get me wrong they have done some great stuff but  they have been really good at dancing around big problems no matter how many posts i had ever made. So sorry if that was rude, all this talk of actual change has my "It's too good to be true meter" running hot again waiting to be disappointed.

Edited January 18, 2016 by (PS4)devack13

[FelisImpurrator]

How could it be that I've never seen this post until now? And now it's popular? The same thing goes for the loot manipulation post that has gone up in fame not too long ago it's like people suddenly actually care about the state of the game, well you have my vote 

 

Edit: I now realize that might sound rude to some people, i'm sorry. I've been playing warframe for a little under two years and have barely ever seen DE really improve much. Don't get me wrong they have done some great stuff but  they have been really good at dancing around big problems no matter how many posts i had ever made. So sorry if that was rude, all this talk of actual change has my "It's too good to be true meter" running hot again waiting to be disappointed.

You could try reading patch notes carefully after watching forum thread trends, the way I used to... I mean, I think it's pretty clear that a huge chunk of the changes made in updates are directly prompted by feedback on major issues.

 

...and I've only been here a year. Salt crystal-colored glasses can be pretty selective.

[Archwizard]

Hey Arch, did you ever take a look at my second round of response re: Nezha etc.?

 

Kinda had a few other things on my plate at the time, sorry, but I can get to it quickly:

- Saryn's a debuffer at heart. If she should have any team synergy, it should be through her debuffs. (Same with Ash, for all the complaints he gets; he shouldn't conceal the team, just blind his targets.) Can't understand the complaint about giving her more EHP, since that was half your point.

- Combos between Saryn's abilities is what I was thinking, too; in fact, I was thinking that the combo meter should clear if you try using the same ability twice in a row (no Miasma spam), but refreshed each time you chain a new one on. It'd work especially well since Miasma is intended to be more of a Finisher now, with most of her costs coming from the lead-in.

- Don't know what to say about Nezha for now; what I have in the OP is a start, but I feel what we really need is to focus on making all of the tanks tankier in general before focusing on one frame being capable of feats of extended invulnerability and evasion to boot. We'll come back to him.

 

 

If its also about stats it would be good to give some increased stats to Oberon and Volt. 

 

Oberon's armor is questionable; like taiiat was saying, if it's not a significant bump then why bother, and DE would never go for a significant bump because that would cause his image to rival that of, say, Atlas or Chroma, which his strong healing and CC abilities are intended to offset.

However, I think in addition to a fair bump in armor (say, Frost/Rhino-level?), he's also open to one yet-unexploited aspect: He doesn't have a passive.

Given Oberon's present nature as the Jack-of-all-Trades Warframe, the main thing he's missing is an offset or a justification for several of his abilities to seem so weak. What if he had one of the strongest passives to make up for it?

For instance, a limited Quick Thinking effect: When he takes fatal damage, he has a brief moment where a burst of willpower and conviction causes him to remain at 2HP, immune to further damage. During this time, assuming the player has energy and the foresight to give him Stagger prevention via Hallowed Ground, the player could throw up a Renewal and save him. Just a thought.

 

As far as upping Volt's armor and energy (150 sounds better than 200), that sounds fine to me - my main concern with Volt right now is dealing with his ultimate, however, which while discussed in the "fix this, DE" sense, has not received enough discussion as far as what actually needs to be done with it.

Generally, it's agreed that Overload is probably his worst ability. Shock is just as capable of clearing or stunning crowds for an extended period, the long lockdown on it provides no synergy with the rest of his kit, and its reliance on electronics makes it both niche and one-use if you ever end up stuck in one place.

Here's the thing: Overload, as an effect, is not going away. A point the devs have made is that they want players to be able to do whatever they've shown in their trailers - and Volt used Overload in "The Profit" (Hek, they changed Pull in what I consider the gimmickiest manner possible because of the same trailer). As an ability, however, we have some leeway: As long as Volt is capable of performing, through some interaction of abilities, the same Overload effect we have now, the devs would probably be pleased.

A suggestion we've had for quite some time is for Overload, as an ability, to have its slot replaced with a Supercharge effect that alters Volt's powers. So, we're left with three questions:

1) What is the archetypal identity of Volt, and how can a new ability strengthen this design or bring it about?

2) How do we maintain the existence of Overload, as far as what has been seen in the trailer?

3) How do we actually supercharge his abilities in a manner that justifies using your ultimate, without making them ungodly powerful or making their augments redundant/useless?

[Aquasurge]

So, we're left with three questions:

1) What is the archetypal identity of Volt, and how can a new ability strengthen this design or bring it about?

2) How do we maintain the existence of Overload, as far as what has been seen in the trailer?

3) How do we actually supercharge his abilities in a manner that justifies using your ultimate, without making them ungodly powerful or making their augments redundant/useless?

i agree with you there, overload is not in a good place right now 

(electric RNGesus confirmed)

but i think devs and the community may need the answer the first question some time soon.

 

http://strawpoll.me/embed_1/6539946/r" 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Aquasurge

[FelisImpurrator]

Ah, well, limited time on my end too, but I'll throw in a thing that was discussed in a chat a little while back regarding Oberon's passive, that I thought was interesting.

 

What if it's somehow a weaker version of the Eximus auras? Either energy color based like Chroma, or cycling every so often, or even 'changes based on last used power'. He's the "Eximus drop frame" - so maybe he could get Eximus powers, too. Although some wouldn't work vs. enemy and would need changes.

[ArgonianTerror]

That is by far the best revamp for Hysteria that I've ever seen. I love it. Well I like the whole thing but that was what stood out the most in the abilities section for me :P

[(PSN)devack13]

You could try reading patch notes carefully after watching forum thread trends, the way I used to... I mean, I think it's pretty clear that a huge chunk of the changes made in updates are directly prompted by feedback on major issues.

 

...and I've only been here a year. Salt crystal-colored glasses can be pretty selective.

". Don't get me wrong they have done some great stuff but  they have been really good at dancing around big problems"

Edited January 19, 2016 by (PS4)devack13

[FelisImpurrator]

". Don't get me wrong they have done some great stuff but  they have been really good at dancing around big problems"

Quoting yourself won't change the answer. They fixed big problems too, just not big enough by some arbitrary standards, and some that are even bigger (multishot, damage, etc) are currently under long-term review. x player's definition of "big problems" is different from y player's definition is different from the [DE]finition, so - your definition of big isn't any better than mine, whole thing's kind of moot either way.

 

Well, back to actually productive balance discussion, I hope.

[Archwizard]

So, Overload. Here's what I have so far:

 

- Overload is replaced with “Supercharge”: While toggled active, Volt drains the power from electronics that pass within range of himself to increase his Power Strength (and Efficiency?) for the remainder of Supercharge's duration; these electronics remain inactive until Supercharge is deactivated. In addition, Volt's other abilities are empowered while Supercharge is active:

--> Supercharged Shock instantly emits a radial pulse wave (equivalent to one tick of Overload as it is now) instead of a chaining effect.

--> Supercharged Speed ??????????

--> Supercharged Electric Shield emits a radial blast of electricity every second, stunning enemies attempting to pass near it.

 

I wanted to convey the base idea that was his tagline, "a potent alternative to gunplay", while playing into the image of a lightning sorcerer. Hence, the Power Strength buff, which could recycle code from present Overload and (with Shock's help) keep the imagery from the trailer alive. Naturally, this would go hand-in-hand with having him increase his energy pool and, possibly, armor as well, to bridge the gap with his Prime frame.

As you can see, right now the main issue is figuring out what to do with Speed.

 

All of the suggestions related to overloading Speed that I've seen have to do with making it more general purpose - increasing Casting speed, Reload speed, Firing speed, Animation speed, etc.

They're boring.

Consider this: Presently Speed is niche enough to not warrant being active 100% of the time, but effective enough in its niche to warrant activating regularly. If you were to have it affect your ability to not only melee, but also snipe enemies, you would have no reason not to tap it every 20 seconds to keep it active 100% of the time - and you'd need extra button presses to do it. It would make playing Volt annoying very quickly.

What an overloaded Speed should do is be more effective at what it already does, rather than force players to use it more; with augments, however, the idea of having it simply deal bonus damage becomes redundant. Alternately, the effect could add something niche to Volt's kit that is potent enough to justify using his ultimate... but twenty-odd frames in and I'm presently at a loss for what's new to add.

 

Honestly, I'm also tempted to just make the current Supercharged effect of Electric Shield be an interaction between Shock and EShield instead.

 

I was hoping we could take this opportunity to address what Volt explicitly needs more, but so far the discussion has been... vague, in no small part because he's already a very good frame outside of Overload. Any thoughts?

Edited January 19, 2016 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

-snip-

 

Tbh, they need to let the trailer thing go. The sentient video is already outdated.

 

Wouldnt it make more sense to give him a damage buff instead of a strength buff? So its not dependent on his other powers.

 

What about some kind of mitigation effect for Speed? And you should overload the augment too.

 

And for shield, maybe a size and shape buff?

[Archwizard]

Wouldnt it make more sense to give him a damage buff instead of a strength buff? So its not dependent on his other powers.

 

What about some kind of mitigation effect for Speed? And you should overload the augment too.

 

And for shield, maybe a size and shape buff?

 

Fair, but I also want whatever buff to affect his powers in the first place, where DE seems to have a habit lately of only letting buffs affect weapon damage - and if he can ramp it up to crazy high levels, it's better to be power exclusive.

 

I was actually thinking that, instead of an augment, casting Electric Shield while Speed is active could cause it to orbit you. As far as increasing Power Strength or damage with the ultimate, that would increase the augment's damage anyway.

[size=2]Tempted to have Supercharging it do something with comboing though...[/size]

 

I think the only relevant size/shape buff to the shield would be to make it a globe, which would rather make it overshadow Snow Globe I think.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Archwizard

[TheGrimCorsair]

 

Fair, but I also want whatever buff to affect his powers in the first place, where DE seems to have a habit lately of only letting buffs affect weapon damage - and if he can ramp it up to crazy high levels, it's better to be power exclusive.

 

I was actually thinking that, instead of an augment, casting Electric Shield while Speed is active could cause it to orbit you. As far as increasing Power Strength or damage with the ultimate, that would increase the augment's damage anyway.

Tempted to have Supercharging it do something with comboing though...

 

I think the only relevant size/shape buff to the shield would be to make it a globe, which would rather make it overshadow Snow Globe I think.

 You could have Electric Shield create, say, 3 orbiting plates. They're disconnect so protection isn't 100%, but as long as you're on the move, it should be plenty sufficient for defense, especially if Overcharge speed made it so just jogging came with an enemy accuracy debuff.

[Elydir]

Tempted to have Supercharging it do something with comboing though...

 

What if Speed affected the rate at which you could get combo multipliers? So instead of 5 hits it takes only 3 or 4? Maybe increase the combo duration too? Or maybe let you get a benefit from having shield up since it only increases damage of firearms?

[Archwizard]

What if Speed affected the rate at which you could get combo multipliers? So instead of 5 hits it takes only 3 or 4? Maybe increase the combo duration too? Or maybe let you get a benefit from having shield up since it only increases damage of firearms?

 

Possible. I'm just concerned that we're considering too many options that could shoehorn him into being all-melee - granting, at least Speed provides a buff even if you aren't meleeing.

Tempted to say that dealing Electrical damage while Supercharged Speed is active should extend his combo duration, as well as increase his Recovery speed from staggers and knockdowns (the main combo breakers, which provide benefits elsewhere). Doesn't really feel organic having two separate bonuses, however.

 

Of course, there's a third option we haven't considered yet: Not having him supercharge all of his abilities at all. Activating his 4th ability could put him into a state like Artemis Bow or Peacemaker, where his attacks are traded for Shocks whose damage increases as he drains electronics, and pressing his 1st ability still activates an Overload wave, but his 2 and 3 remain the same.

 

It would still put him at Saryn-level synergy, without forcing you to activate his 4 to get the most use out of all of his abilities.

[Marbelik]

Ah, well, limited time on my end too, but I'll throw in a thing that was discussed in a chat a little while back regarding Oberon's passive, that I thought was interesting.

 

What if it's somehow a weaker version of the Eximus auras? Either energy color based like Chroma, or cycling every so often, or even 'changes based on last used power'. He's the "Eximus drop frame" - so maybe he could get Eximus powers, too. Although some wouldn't work vs. enemy and would need changes.

Why not giving Oberon the passive of the Ancients? Any ally damaged around Oberon got such damage reduced by an "X"% and Oberon gets healed such "X"%? Just a crazy idea i think.

[Archwizard]

Ah, well, limited time on my end too, but I'll throw in a thing that was discussed in a chat a little while back regarding Oberon's passive, that I thought was interesting.

 

What if it's somehow a weaker version of the Eximus auras? Either energy color based like Chroma, or cycling every so often, or even 'changes based on last used power'. He's the "Eximus drop frame" - so maybe he could get Eximus powers, too. Although some wouldn't work vs. enemy and would need changes.

 

Not all of their auras (like Energy Leech) translate well, and most of them simply don't make sense for Oberon.

 

Why not giving Oberon the passive of the Ancients? Any ally damaged around Oberon got such damage reduced by an "X"% and Oberon gets healed such "X"%? Just a crazy idea i think.

 

Too redundant of Renewal, I think. Kinda what I hate about Frost's passive, it doesn't add anything to his kit that he couldn't already do with a little energy. A passive should supplement what their intended purpose is (like Zephyr's aerial maneuvering or Excalibur/Mesa's weapon buffs), rather than fulfilling it in itself.

 

Also worthless in solo play.

[FelisImpurrator]

Why not giving Oberon the passive of the Ancients? Any ally damaged around Oberon got such damage reduced by an "X"% and Oberon gets healed such "X"%? Just a crazy idea i think.

Oh, hell, that'd be awesome.

 

I'm all for that.

dammit Arch you ninja'd me with things my 8AM mind hasn't even fully processed.

 

Back to the drawing board, I'm officially out of ideas for goatdad's passive. What IS his role, though, precisely? That kind of has to be established before anything else. Paladin? Druid? What do those mean in the context of Warframe?

Edited January 21, 2016 by FelisImpurrator

[taiiat]

Kinda what I hate about Frost's passive

i hate that it's Random, and not always active.... LIKE EVERY OTHER ONE.

none of the rest of them are Random.

 

Freezing Melee Attackers is very underwhelming too, but it's RNG based, when they shouldn't be. it isn't a passive feature if it's only active sometimes.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Oh, hell, that'd be awesome.

 

I'm all for that.

dammit Arch you ninja'd me with things my 8AM mind hasn't even fully processed.

 

Back to the drawing board, I'm officially out of ideas for goatdad's passive. What IS his role, though, precisely? That kind of has to be established before anything else. Paladin? Druid? What do those mean in the context of Warframe?

 

Druids are typically casters that rely on form switching to become melee power houses, sometimes but not always at the cost of their spell casting abilities. Their spells tend towards control more than raw damage output, and often incorporate summoning and healing spells.

Paladins are generally heavily armored, close-combat focused warriors with limited supplementary spells (usually granted from some form of divinity) with an emphasis on sustaining themselves. They usually have one or two large melee damage steroids in their repertoire, but generally what spells they possess tend to be buffs focusing on endurance in combat.

 

I would say Oberon is much closer to a Battle Cleric than either a Paladin or Druid, mechanically speaking. You have a character that is able to both assist from afar with spells which focus on limiting an opponent's ability to hurt the party, is capable of sustaining a party, is not as well armored as true tanks but can buff themselves to be formidably durable, and possesses a powerful multi-target nuke centered on themselves, though they trade spell-casting and healing prowess for better close range combat ability.

 

Dropping the RPG aspect for a moment and looking at Oberon on Warframe's terms alone, you have a Warframe who's kit, in one form or another, can be used to emulate the abilities of basically most other warframes at once, and which allows Oberon to effortlessly switch gears mid fight to cover whatever holes or weaknesses may crop up due to team composition.

 

His biggest let downs are the severely restrictive casting animations for Renewal which are at odds with aggressive posture one needs to maintain to use and keep using Hallowed Ground, and Hallowed Ground itself's paltry boost to EHP (albeit the status effect immunity is very good, it's not flawless and could use boosts in a few areas: Killing Tar MOA puddles and preventing being bounced off it by Shockwave MOAs would be a start).

...hmm, what about temporary hit points? You take so much damage, and as long as it's not fatal, you at no cost automatically regenerate a portion of the lost HP?

[Archwizard]

What IS his role, though, precisely? That kind of has to be established before anything else. Paladin? Druid? What do those mean in the context of Warframe?

 

As much as what he ends up actually being, he is, above all else, advertised as the Paladin Warframe. Going back to the archetype in the first place as part of the hype train gets players to attach their experience with the archetype to their expectations of the new class, and I feel many were sorely disappointed with what they got.

 

In Warframe, he is built as an easy-to-use Jack of All Trades - as you say, he can emulate most basic Warframe abilities - but ultimately he has a very low skill ceiling and little reward for interaction, which is the issue we're trying to address. As advertised, he was supposed to be a support class, with strong synergy between his abilities (something he did not even receive until his first rework).

 

...hmm, what about temporary hit points? You take so much damage, and as long as it's not fatal, you at no cost automatically regenerate a portion of the lost HP?

 

Interesting proposal.

Taking it a step further, what if he had an innate Guardian effect? When you take fatal damage, a portion of your shields instantly regenerates?

 

There have been suggestions for damage to shields to be gated, so that a hit from most damage types* which deals more damage than your shields are worth won't spill over into your health.

* Exceptions likely being those with unique effects toward shields, including Magnetic, Toxin or Finisher damage.

 

I know you wrote an exception that it should not apply fatal damage, but Oberon himself is a Warframe who lacks serious scalability, and I think this would be a shot. As I said before, being able to stagger fatal damage to give him time to use his abilities to undo and further mitigate damage would give his playstyle an element of reward for the heavy risks it takes - especially since few other Warframes get that split second of breathing room upon realizing they're even getting hit to start with.

Ever tried a Sortie? Snipers, Sappers, Mutalist Battery Carriers, all killing you before you know they're there. It would not be a niche effect - it would not be powerful in the conventional sense, but give him a unique potency.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Archwizard

[TheGrimCorsair]

 

As much as what he ends up actually being, he is, above all else, advertised as the Paladin Warframe. Going back to the archetype in the first place as part of the hype train gets players to attach their experience with the archetype to their expectations of the new class, and I feel many were sorely disappointed with what they got.

 

In Warframe, he is built as an easy-to-use Jack of All Trades - as you say, he can emulate most basic Warframe abilities - but ultimately he has a very low skill ceiling and little reward for interaction, which is the issue we're trying to address. As advertised, he was supposed to be a support class, with strong synergy between his abilities (something he did not even receive until his first rework).

 

 

Interesting proposal.

Taking it a step further, what if he had an innate Guardian effect? When you take fatal damage, a portion of your shields instantly regenerates?

 

There have been suggestions for damage to shields to be gated, so that a hit from most damage types* which deals more damage than your shields are worth won't spill over into your health.

* Exceptions likely being those with unique effects toward shields, including Magnetic, Toxin or Finisher damage.

 

I know you wrote an exception that it should not apply fatal damage, but Oberon himself is a Warframe who lacks serious scalability, and I think this would be a shot. As I said before, being able to stagger fatal damage to give him time to use his abilities to undo and further mitigate damage would give his playstyle an element of reward for the heavy risks it takes - especially since few other Warframes get that split second of breathing room upon realizing they're even getting hit to start with.

Ever tried a Sortie? Snipers, Sappers, Mutalist Battery Carriers, all killing you before you know they're there. It would not be a niche effect - it would not be powerful in the conventional sense, but give him a unique potency.

 

 

Everyday since they've been out, and solo them most of the time besides (Solo level 100 defense takes so long ;_;). The only enemy there that's, from my perspective, uncommonly nasty are the Mutalist Battery Carriers... if they have a sound effect for firing (or existing), I've never heard it. And yeah, Oberon is never my first choice for these because of his lack of long-duration hard CC (no blinds or sleep, and is Radiation and Puncture procs just don't have the duration necessary to really keep up as the enemies pile in) and lack of resistance to burst damage, even though he's by far my most played frame. I can't really see following your suggestion leading to a situation where Oberon suddenly leaves all the super-tanks in the dust, but would go a long way towards making him a solid frame that'll be there the whole mission (probably) to help plug whatever holes may occur.

[ReynoldsXD]

Nekros, can i get my plat back when you remove the loot button? Because thats specifically what i bought him for.

 

True, other frames got reworks but they never betrayed the purpose of them beign aquired:

 

To murder things. That never changed. They did not get thrown into a totally different category of purpose.

 

 

 

Nekros purpose is to bolster farming. Thats what most of us bought him for. If you now shunt him out of that role, into the roles we already have plents of options for... well then i want my plat back to buy something esle.

 

 

The role you want to push him into is already CROWDED.

 

Crownd control?

Nyx, Vauban, varieties of blinds, even hydroid, rhino, Nezha, Mag (pulled foes dont do much besides getting up...), oh and trinity is the end all of enemy trolling with those linking mechanics...

 

 

You know what i do not need? More crowd management. I need a relieve on the farming.  Nekros provides that. If you take that away to turn him into something we already have in spades, then i want my plat back.