Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Well of Life, EV and Link

I suppose that works. I was confused for a bit that it gave energy outright when the target dies, but if it's just for Trinity then I suppose that keeps her supplied as needed to be the primary healer.

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is.
Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains first from Blessing’s “buffer,” then from Trinity’s energy pool, with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)

Here's what I have a problem with: As long as Blessing provides an instant, scaling, unlimited-range (easily/potential) full-heal that nobody has to work for, there's still no reason not to use Blessing over Well of Life, especially if we're setting up EV so energy remains a non-issue to Trinity herself.

In this case, we're just inflating the immortality factor as well, since everyone gets QT directly from Trinity's virtually unlimited energy pool (even if the "target must die" limitation does gouge it some), especially with high Power Strength.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Archwizard

[Hellmaker2004]

5 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is.

 

Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains first from Blessing’s “buffer,” then from Trinity’s energy pool, with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)

 

 

So i have a few questions regarding Blessing, Link and Well of Life as well.but Blessing is the most important one, but it does have my interest so far.

 

First one will be straight to the point, If Blessing restore both shield and health would this not make it a directly in competition with Well of Life? i know WoL offers damage resistance but if Blessing restore both instantly and with a added benefit i see little to no reason to use WoL in combat. And to make matter worse. If you do use WoL to offer damage resistance it could directly make Blessing worse by people restoring health* when you are timing Blessing.

* = (And shield? a question i ask later)

 

Now to the more interesting part. So Blessing offering a buffer "barrier" is extremely interesting and it benefiting from a good timing make it more interesting**. However, it does open up even more questions.

** = (Still exploitable or we assume that have been "fixed"?)

 

Questions about the Barrier part.

Spoiler

A; Can Blessing be recast to potentially stack barrier values?

B; Does the Barrier value scale from overal healing from all teammembers or only from the one with the most missing?

C; Does the barrier value scale with how much health it restored value wise or percentage wise?

D; If barrier scale from value does the barrier value scale with only health healed or shield as well?

E; If it scales value wise instead of percentage wise, and only from health restored would this not discourage the use of shield mods and promote health mods?

 

Question about the quick thinking part.

So you stated it would "Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does"

And at the same time you write "This effect drains first from Blessing’s “buffer,” then from Trinity’s energy pool"

Spoiler

A; Will allies suffering damage when @ the threshold make the team Trinity lose energy instead of there allie suffering damage?

B; Would the combined effect of offering a QT on a earlier threshold @ 5 HP and  "This effect drains first from Blessing’s “buffer, then "from Trinity’s energy pool" make regular Quick thinking redundant and worthless for Trinity, since it will never reach it's threshold @ 2 HP unless the Trinity player have 0 energy and therefore make regular Quick Thinking worthless?

C; If it offers quick thinking on a earlier Threshold @ 5 Hp over regular quick thinking and they both will end up using energy, the base value would be worthless in comparison with Quick Thinking for Trinity, and you would need at least 185% Power strength in order to even consider keeping it up. So can the Blessing part be disabled?

Those are all questions i have about Blessing. Now over to Link.

 

Question about Link.

Link is a quite strong survivability skill that not only offers decent protection but also redirects status effects back at hostiles, you did however write that you want it to scale with power strength.

Spoiler

A; What value should scale with strength, the damage reduction part, the redirected damage or both?

B; If damage reduction is part of the scaling would this not "Force" Trinity into a minimum amount of power strength since her regular survivability whiteout it is lacking at best? (Similar to one of the problem Mesas Shatter shields currently have)

C; If damage reduction is part of the scaling how much would be needed to reach the "maximum" amount and what would be the base value and capped value?

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Hellmaker2004
Changed colour on text in spoiler.

[--Q--uaint]

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Here’s what I have a problem with: As long as Blessing provides an instant, scaling, unlimited-range (easily/potential) full-heal that nobody has to work for, there’s still no reason not to use Blessing over Well of Life, especially if we're setting up EV so energy remains a non-issue to Trinity herself.

In this case, we're just inflating the immortality factor as well, since everyone gets QT directly from Trinity’s virtually unlimited energy pool (even if the “target must die” limitation does gouge it some), especially with high Power Strength.

Ok. How about ditching the heal, but still having the “energy buffer” that scales with the missing HP at the time of cast?

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

First one will be straight to the point, If Blessing restore both shield and health would this not make it a directly in competition with Well of Life? i know WoL offers damage resistance but if Blessing restore both instantly and with a added benefit i see little to no reason to use WoL in combat. And to make matter worse. If you do use WoL to offer damage resistance it could directly make Blessing worse by people restoring health* when you are timing Blessing.

I think it might be fair to remove the heal from Blessing, but keep the “energy buffer” mechanic. WoL is your bread and butter for protecting your squad, Blessing is for when WoL fails you.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

** = (Still exploitable or we assume that have been “fixed”?)

Not nearly as exploitable. The “energy buffer” only makes the QT effect not drain her actual energy for the first little bit. We have a limited supply of health/energy that scales with your teammates, not the enemy’s damage. It’s not even close to as strong as DR.

It is definitely exploitable, and removing the heal makes it even moreso… but if Blessing drops now everyone just dies instantly because they're at 5 HP. This amuses me and adds some risk to exploiting it.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

A; Can Blessing be recast to potentially stack barrier values?

No

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

B; Does the Barrier value scale from overal healing from all teammembers or only from the one with the most missing?

Overall team missing HP. The idea with the “energy buffer” is to keep Trinity from being punished too hard for having squadmates.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

C; Does the barrier value scale with how much health it restored value wise or percentage wise?

Actual HP missing. (I would say restored, but again I think we're taking that out?)

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

D; If barrier scale from value does the barrier value scale with only health healed or shield as well?

Only health, I'm thinking? Seems too low-risk for too much reward if shields get involved.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

E; If it scales value wise instead of percentage wise, and only from health restored would this not discourage the use of shield mods and promote health mods?

It would, but the existence of Trinity in the squad does that anyway. Freely available healing + the effects of armor make health much more desirable on basically everyone but Mag.

4 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

A; Will allies suffering damage when @ the threshold make the team Trinity lose energy instead of there allie suffering damage?

Yes, unless there’s some “blessing buffer” left.

4 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

B; Would the combined effect of offering a QT on a earlier threshold @ 5 HP and  “This effect drains first from Blessing’s “buffer, then ”from Trinity’s energy pool" make regular Quick thinking redundant and worthless for Trinity, since it will never reach it’s threshold @ 2 HP unless the Trinity player have 0 energy and therefore make regular Quick Thinking worthless?

No. Remember, Blessing requires high power strength and an energy cost to ride. If you're low on health, it may be worth it, but I don’t see it eclipsing QT.

4 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

C; If it offers quick thinking on a earlier Threshold @ 5 Hp over regular quick thinking and they both will end up using energy, the base value would be worthless in comparison with Quick Thinking for Trinity, and you would need at least 185% Power strength in order to even consider keeping it up. So can the Blessing part be disabled?

Hmmm. I don’t think that’s needed, but maybe just let normal QT take over (for Trin specifically) if its efficiency is higher and the “buffer” is gone?

4 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

A; What value should scale with strength, the damage reduction part, the redirected damage or both?

The damage that hits the enemies. The DR would stay unmoddable.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Ok. How about ditching the heal, but still having the “energy buffer” that scales with the missing HP at the time of cast?

I think it might be fair to remove the heal from Blessing, but keep the “energy buffer” mechanic. WoL is your bread and butter for protecting your squad, Blessing is for when WoL fails you.

Ditching the heal on Blessing is not something i would consider a good idea, i can understand the DR and giving it the Barrier system in exchange*.

* = Although it is currently still suffering from another problem, it scales with the amount of allies making it weaker when solo or sub 4 / 8 player group.

WoL would suit better as a shield restore with maybe Damage resistance and Blessing would offer health restore with the barrier system, and the primary reason for this is reliability. Unless the game is severely slowed down in travel, WoL will not work as a primary healing tool, this can easily be demonstrated by the issues most other healer frame have yet are not limited to. And that is being unreliable and delay. Blessing provides exactly that, a push to heal button that you can rely on.

 

Another issue i see with Blessing not restoring health would be the primary mechanic.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Overall team missing HP. The idea with the “energy buffer” is to keep Trinity from being punished too hard for having squadmates.

So you want your team members to be low and yet it will not restore there health. This would force people to circulate around where Trinity wants the engagement to occur since she would only be able to heal with WoL so this would severely limit the park our and freedom the game offers in high level play.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Yes, unless there’s some “blessing buffer” left.

My question was unclear / poorly written. But if i assume corectly.

Trinity will give allies a Quick thinking effect that first drain the barrier then drain Trinity's energy?

 

If the tool would then be unable to be deactivated Blessing would perform as a very poor tool for Trinity's own Energy reserve, something a healer do not want to sacrifice as a Buffer for denying damage.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

It would, but the existence of Trinity in the squad does that anyway. Freely available healing + the effects of armor make health much more desirable on basically everyone but Mag.

This would potentialy be a problem with Inaros on the team. or any future frames with massive health pool.

It would also diminish the value of frames that more so rely on shield instead of health to survive since they would provide much smaller buffers for the barrier it feels like this purpose if it checks for value would have to many different systems that can manipulate it.

 

Health Values, Power Strenght, Lost health value, Health mods, amount of allies wounded and "Power Duration?

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I belive it would be better that WoL offered a Shield restore / Over shield effect, with added damage resistance and Blessing acted as a health restore tool.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Archwizard]

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

WoL would suit better as a shield restore with maybe Damage resistance and Blessing would offer health restore with the barrier system, and the primary reason for this is reliability. Unless the game is severely slowed down in travel, WoL will not work as a primary healing tool, this can easily be demonstrated by the issues most other healer frame have yet are not limited to. And that is being unreliable and delay. Blessing provides exactly that, a push to heal button that you can rely on.

Except as I said, if Trinity's primary purpose is to be a healer, her primarily healing ability should not be delayed to her ultimate under any circumstances. Having Well of Life be cast on an enemy just to shield allies without any connection between the two actions is highly unintuitive - not to mention it doesn't fit the name at all.

Further, as a healer, Trinity's purpose is to... well, restore health. Not shields. While on paper there's room for overlap, in practice the ability to restore one or the other can fully influence builds - particularly when one of the core mods for self-healing Warframes is Rage.

Thing is, in this back and forth over "Should Blessing be Trinity's key healing effect or not", we're ignoring the point of this thread. This thread isn't about creating compromises and recycling broken content until it looks polished, it's about gameplay.
Maybe you're right, maybe it's pointless to keep Well of Life. So look at the OP: We're not above saying "Scrap it!" here to boost her theme. Your solutions, however, don't boost her theme, because in your book, the healer can't heal without her ultimate. It turns her ultimate into a crutch and conflates Press 4 to Win gameplay - which goes against the current design of Warframes.

The gripe that you are ignoring, is that Blessing is in a league of its own. It has infinite range (unlike Mend and Swarm), no charge time (unlike Mend and Swarm), instant effect (unlike Renewal and Swarm), and a guarantee of full healing with the right build the moment you press the button (unlike all of them) - and that's before you get to the mitigation. Any time there is a role for healing, Trinity will be the top of every list, because nothing else can compare.
To which, given the way you've already pushed this discussion, I'm sure your immediate argument would be, "Well good, Trinity's supposed to be the core healer, she should be the best" - but making a clear "best" in such a powercreep-laden endgame like Warframe's leaves no room for anyone else in her slot if their healing cannot compete.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Archwizard

[--Q--uaint]

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Ditching the heal on Blessing is not something i would consider a good idea, i can understand the DR and giving it the Barrier system in exchange*.

* = Although it is currently still suffering from another problem, it scales with the amount of allies making it weaker when solo or sub 4 / 8 player group.

I would prefer to not make Blessing and WoL redundant, but both of them are bad for a number of reasons if they don’t heal at least HP.

You're missing an important point about the scaling of the “blessing barrier.” The barrier is for the whole group. This means extra barrier for more people is only really a strong benefit iff a strict subset of your squad is at risk. People that take damage contribute however much they take damage, and people that don’t take damage don’t contribute.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

WoL would suit better as a shield restore with maybe Damage resistance and Blessing would offer health restore with the barrier system, and the primary reason for this is reliability. Unless the game is severely slowed down in travel, WoL will not work as a primary healing tool, this can easily be demonstrated by the issues most other healer frame have yet are not limited to. And that is being unreliable and delay. Blessing provides exactly that, a push to heal button that you can rely on.

I like my WoL for DR idea, but I think WoL’s essence is lost if it is unable to heal anyone so it definitely also needs to heal.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

So you want your team members to be low and yet it will not restore there health. This would horse people to circulate around where Trinity wants the engagement to occur since she would only be able to heal with WoL so this would severely limit the park our and freedom the game offers in high level play.

Fair point.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Trinity will give allies a Quick thinking effect that first drain the barrier then drain Trinity’s energy?

Yes. The buffer is on Trinity, so it is shared among the whole squad.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

If the tool would then be unable to be deactivated Blessing would perform as a very poor tool for Trinity’s own Energy reserve, something a healer do not want to sacrifice as a Buffer for denying damage.

I see your point. Trinity should have the ability to cancel Blessing’s continued effects without recasting, then. Actually, why not just make the buffer the only thing Blessing works with? I like that.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

This would potentialy be a problem with Inaros on the team. or any future frames with massive health pool.

That’s called team synergy. I have 0 problems with this.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

It would also diminish the value of frames that more so rely on shield instead of health to survive since they would provide much smaller buffers for the barrier it feels like this purpose if it checks for value would have to many different systems that can manipulate it.

If whether a 'frame helps Trinity’s barrier more or less is actually an important factor, you have a strange gameplay scenario. The 'frames that have less than 100 base HP have their own survival abilities which help Trinity indirectly by not putting a strain on her Blessing buffer.

It does have a huge number of systems that interact with it. I don’t really have a problem with that.

2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I belive it would be better that WoL offered a Shield restore / Over shield effect, with added damage resistance and Blessing acted as a health restore tool.

If WoL didn’t heal, then Trinity is again stuck with no healing until level 10. That’s wak.

5 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

it’s about gameplay.
Maybe you're right, maybe it’s pointless to keep Well of Life. So look at the OP: We're not above saying “Scrap it!” here to boost her theme.

I agree, but I think WoL has a place in the game… at least if the DR is moved there.

6 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

The gripe that you are ignoring, is that Blessing is in a league of its own. Any time there is a role for healing, Trinity will be the top of every list, because nothing else can compare.

Noted.

 

I suppose it’s time for a re-rework?

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP and shields is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is. However, the heal only applies to allies within a base range of 20 meters.
Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad based only on the HP healed by the ability, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains only from Blessing’s “buffer,” with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)
Optional synergy with Well of Life: all healing done by Well of Life during Blessing is added to the QT buffer.

Blessing is no longer infinite-range except in its squad-support capacity, and it needs to heal to support the squad in that way.

[Hellmaker2004]

41 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Except as I said, if Trinity's primary purpose is to be a healer, her primarily healing ability should not be delayed to her ultimate under any circumstances. Having Well of Life be cast on an enemy just to shield allies without any connection between the two actions is highly unintuitive - not to mention it doesn't fit the name at all.

Further, as a healer, Trinity's purpose is to... well, restore health. Not shields. While on paper there's room for overlap, in practice the ability to restore one or the other can fully influence builds - particularly when one of the core mods for self-healing Warframes is Rage.

Thing is, in this back and forth over "Should Blessing be Trinity's key healing effect or not", we're ignoring the point of this thread. This thread isn't about creating compromises and recycling broken content until it looks polished, it's about gameplay.
Maybe you're right, maybe it's pointless to keep Well of Life. So look at the OP: We're not above saying "Scrap it!" here to boost her theme. Your solutions, however, don't boost her theme, because in your book, the healer can't heal without her ultimate.

The gripe that you are ignoring, is that Blessing is in a league of its own. Any time there is a role for healing, Trinity will be the top of every list, because nothing else can compare.
To which, I'm sure your immediate argument would be, "Well good, Trinity's supposed to be the core healer, she should be the best" - but making a clear "best" in such a powercreep-laden endgame like Warframe's leaves no room for anyone else in her slot if their healing cannot compete.

My primary concern is not about WoL being the healing skill and Blessing not. That could indeed be changed.

My primary concern is that her healing skills will be turned into something similar that the other healers have, a very niche skill that on paper perform perfectly but in reality will not do anything. WoL mechanic is suffering from three major problem, Positional healing, Foe requirement and dealing damage to a foe that have been offered 90% damage resistance.

14 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Instead of simply restoring health to the person dealing damage, WoL now restores health to all friendlies in range when the victim takes damage

Is the closest thing we have so far as a "working WoL" since it removes the damage dealing aspect, but it still suffers from the high mobility this game have and requiring a alive foe in order to work.

 

In a fast paced game it is very unlikely allies will stand still near enemies. This can already be seen with Inaros group heal, it heals for a insane amount but the base range is only 15 meter, when playing alone it works like a charm and make you close to invulnerable even on Sortie 3, but when you play with friends it is extremely annoying to heal them since they jump around like bunnies and the cast time is to long to perform any emergency heals, this is further boosted by the fact it works in direct counter with what most damage frames do. Kill stuff, since another requirement are foes to be alive.

 

So to support a positional healing style we either need to slow down movement in the game, and / or lower the amount of damage hostiles and we can dish out to compensate for the lack of reliable healing skills if we change them all into a positional healing type style that require foes.

 

Blessing could be changed into what ChronoEclipse wants but it requires sever tweaking. One issue* "is that as i understand it each and everyone will be granted a barrier by themselves". A better idea would be if everyone is granted a Barrier that works in unity with each other. This way Trinity can easily keep track on the Barrier value and know when to refresh it. It would also have to protect against some of the status effects** in the game otherwise not healing would be pointless in a lot of cases.

This would however not resolve the issue WoL have and that is where the main problem lies, in the current game play, positional healing is not working.

 

* = This is something i might have misunderstood and if i did it looks more promising, but i am still confused over a lot of things with how the Barrier works.

** = Would have to absorb status effects that deal damage such as Toxin, Fire, Gas and Bleeding.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[--Q--uaint]

17 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

One issue* “is that as i understand it each and everyone will be granted a barrier by themselves”. A better idea would be if everyone is granted a Barrier that works in unity with each other. This way Trinity can easily keep track on the Barrier value and know when to refresh it.

* = This is something i might have misunderstood and if i did it looks more promising, but i am still confused over a lot of things with how the Barrier works.

Do you know how Quick Thinking works? If you don’t, here’s a summary: When you reach 2 health, any additional health damage you take expends energy instead of health. Each point of energy counts for (at max) 2.4 HP. If the damage is large enough, you are also staggered.

The “Blessing barrier” mechanic would create a single Quick Thinking-like effect that works for the whole squad. This effect would stop health damage at 5 health instead of 2 health, and would drain the “Blessing buffer” that is created from healing shields and HP.
If anyone in the squad draws from the buffer, Trinity will see the number going down and be able to evaluate whether she wants to recast or whatever. This is also why the buffer needs to scale with the number of teammates, which it does by using all actual healed HP and shields.

Basically, I am saying it works how you want it to.

17 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

It would also have to protect against some of the status effects** in the game otherwise not healing would be pointless in a lot of cases.

** = Would have to absorb status effects that deal damage such as Toxin, Fire, Gas and Bleeding.

The “Blessing barrier” would not nullify any procs, though it would be able to absorb the damage from procs if necessary to keep a squadmate from going below 5 health. Anything that Quick Thinking will protect you from, this should work on, and it won’t stagger you either.

17 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

This would however not resolve the issue WoL have and that is where the main problem lies, in the current game play, positional healing is not working.

Healers aren’t really needed in most high-movement missions. Survival is a bit of an exception, but groups will frequently hang out in one room or another and kill with the support of their squad. This is perfect for my iteration of WoL, since Trinity will be able to put a WoL DR field for each of her allies and use Link for herself. If any of them are close enough to use the same field (or there’s not a squad of 4), that’s even better.

If your squad is overrunning the enemy so much that they can’t stay together, Blessing is and always will be a better tool unless WoL can be cast on an ally to give them lifesteal.

If I am reading this right, you are arguing that static defensive boosts are not useful. If so, please justify the number of people using Snowglobe in so many different missions.

[Hellmaker2004]

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

If I am reading this right, you are arguing that static defensive boosts are not useful. If so, please justify the number of people using Snowglobe in so many different missions.

They do serve a purpose, especially frosts snow globe since it offers a invincibility period and does not require a hostile target.

They protect a ViP target something that have until recently been a static target with very limited amount of health. In sortie however frost have been in a decline since that target started to move slowly around and if anything it has promoted other frames such as Limbo and Ivara that can protect moving targets by "sticking" there protection on the ViP or area wide crowd control skills.

 

What i was saying is that static healing will not work when you are attempting to heal someone who have massive movement speed at there disposal, the odds of your allies jumping around more will also increase the lower health they have since movement provide avoidance. Could it work?

Yes, if people are not jumping around, if people are camping in corners. But we can not avoid that one charm the game have is the massive amount of freedom the park our can offer and it will simply not work with it, and this is why Blessing is currently a mechanically good ability for healing, now we can all agree that the values are high and it can and is being "exploited".

But i am simply talking about the mechanical aspect, you keep an eye on your teammates health bar and when they are in need you click it. It will then check for the requirement of 100 base energy before doing a short ~0.5 animation that end up healing them and then it rewards you equal to the amount of risk you were willing to take and this is to demote ability spamming.

 

And this is the primary reason the other healers fall short, some of them have very complicated issues and other are more in the minor department but you can not rely on them. Inaros is perhaps the "best" healer after Trinity, and i loved his idea but in reality it did not work out great as a healing skill for his friends and lets ask ourselves why.

With Inaros you can easily reach 500 - 1000 Healing per second. He can also offer extremely good crowd control that completely stop foes in there track, these two things in combination should offer quite a effective way to heal one could assume, and in static play it does sometimes. The problem however starts to kick in when you attempt to heal allies that are utilizing the park our system or are killing targets to fast.

His skill has a long cast time, it has a "short default range*" and it requires targets to be alive, all of those things make it extremely annoying to act as a team healer. If your team is constantly moving, if your team is constantly killing and most damage frames are supposed to, so your team is although not on purpose denying you of a way to heal them. And this is extremely frustrating, to see your allies in need of aid and yet you are unable to heal them due to the limitations you have.

* = 15 Default meter radius @ max rank.

 

And that is the problem i have, you want to set the same limitation on Trinity as the other healers have. If anything the other healers need to be more refined so they are not force to these ridiculous rules and restrictions.

[Hellmaker2004]

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

If I am reading this right, you are arguing that static defensive boosts are not useful. If so, please justify the number of people using Snowglobe in so many different missions.

They do serve a purpose, especially frosts snow globe since it offers a invincibility period and does not require a hostile target.

They protect a ViP target something that have until recently been a static target with very limited amount of health. In sortie however frost have been in a decline since that target started to move slowly around and if anything it has promoted other frames such as Limbo and Ivara that can protect moving targets by "sticking" there protection on the ViP or area wide crowd control skills.

 

What i was saying is that static healing will not work when you are attempting to heal someone who have massive movement speed at there disposal, the odds of your allies jumping around more will also increase the lower health they have since movement provide avoidance. Could it work?

Yes, if people are not jumping around, if people are camping in corners. But we can not avoid that one charm the game have is the massive amount of freedom the park our can offer and it will simply not work with it, and this is why Blessing is currently a mechanically good ability for healing, now we can all agree that the values are high and it can and is being "exploited".

But i am simply talking about the mechanical aspect, you keep an eye on your teammates health bar and when they are in need you click it. It will then check for the requirement of 100 base energy before doing a short ~0.5 animation that end up healing them and then it rewards you equal to the amount of risk you were willing to take and this is to demote ability spamming.

 

And this is the primary reason the other healers fall short, some of them have very complicated issues and other are more in the minor department but you can not rely on them. Inaros is perhaps the "best" healer after Trinity, and i loved his idea but in reality it did not work out great as a healing skill for his friends and lets ask ourselves why.

With Inaros you can easily reach 500 - 1000 Healing per second. He can also offer extremely good crowd control that completely stop foes in there track, these two things in combination should offer quite a effective way to heal one could assume, and in static play it does sometimes. The problem however starts to kick in when you attempt to heal allies that are utilizing the park our system or are killing targets to fast.

His skill has a long cast time, it has a "short default range*" and it requires targets to be alive, all of those things make it extremely annoying to act as a team healer. If your team is constantly moving, if your team is constantly killing and most damage frames are supposed to, so your team is although not on purpose denying you of a way to heal them. And this is extremely frustrating, to see your allies in need of aid and yet you are unable to heal them due to the limitations you have.

* = 15 Default meter radius @ max rank.

 

And that is the problem i have, you want to set the same limitation on Trinity as the other healers have. If anything the other healers need to be more refined so they are not force to these ridiculous rules and restrictions.

[--Q--uaint]

32 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Yes, if people are not jumping around, if people are camping in corners.

My WoL rework will have a higher radius than Snowglobe, and provide a similar level of protection. It won’t block all damage, but it will protect you from Bombards/Napalms/Sapping Ospreys.

EDIT: I would certainly be open to modifications on the formula I have for DR. IMO it might almost be best to have all health lost under WoL act as an “armor value” that works for shields and health?

Edited April 25, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Gurpgork]

I understand that Trinity is the present area of discussion, but I'd like to say a few things about Valkyr. 

The primary problem with Hysteria is the redundancy it causes. Valkyr has the best armor stat in the game and even has an ability that can boost it further, but then she has Hysteria, which completely negates her phenomenal armor stat. 

The change proposed to Hysteria (not allowing her to fall below 1 HP, as well as giving her damage based on missing health) not only fails to address this problem, but compounds it further. This would make her kit fight itself. The lifesteal provided by Hysteria would negate the damage bonus from missing health. Furthermore, since the ability becomes more powerful as Valkyr loses health, while it simultaneously keeps her alive at 1 HP, it would not only be unnecessary to improve her armor, but it would be detrimental for Hysteria builds, since it would slow down the damage bonus considerably while providing no benefit in return.

Prolonged Paralysis, in its current implementation, is another issue. The augment is actually somewhat of a sidegrade, since it provides longer duration in exchange for only allowing ground finishers. Removing the added duration provided by the augment would make it a clear downgrade. 

Again, I fully realize that Trinity is the area of discussion, but I wanted to speak my mind about Valkyr.

[Archwizard]

On 4/24/2016 at 11:26 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Positional healing

I just want to examine this for a moment, because I feel this is a key part of where our ideologies clash.

Equinox' Mend is entirely positional; enemies must die near her to charge it, allies must be near her to benefit from it.
Inaros' Scarab Swarm is entirely positional; enemies must be available to discharge it, allies must be near the crowd of affected enemies to benefit from it.
Oberon's Renewal is partly positional; due to the travel time (which Tenno have been known to outrun with ease), the distance between Oberon and his allies upon casting is entirely relevant to achieving the healing in a timely manner (and as we know, timing is everything with healing effects).

Blessing is the only ability in the game, period, where your position within the map is entirely irrelevant. This addition further contributes to the widespread belief that no other healer can compare to Trinity, because with EV (or even just some energy restores), she could literally stay in the first tile of the mission and spam full-heals on you without ever moving. It's not just a 'back line' ability, it's a waaaay back line ability - not only is it overpowered by comparison to other healers, but it actively fights the philosophy behind ³/₄ of Trinity's own kit.

3 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

The change proposed to Hysteria (not allowing her to fall below 1 HP, as well as giving her damage based on missing health) not only fails to address this problem, but compounds it further. This would make her kit fight itself. The lifesteal provided by Hysteria would negate the damage bonus from missing health.

Actually, no. The ability was written to calculate off of the total amount of damage Valkyr had taken, rather than her health level at this moment - the idea was that healing would become more important so that she could take more total damage. (And that Paralysis' shield cost would become a non-penalty, contributing to her taking health damage.)

Frankly I find this assumption you made hard to follow, as even Vex Armor doesn't negate damage gains if Chroma is healed - the damage taken is locked in.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Archwizard

[Gurpgork]

10 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Actually, no. The ability was written to calculate off of the total amount of damage Valkyr had taken, rather than her health level at this moment - the idea was that healing would become more important so that she could take more total damage.

Ah. That makes more sense. I stand corrected. 

[--Q--uaint]

5 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Prolonged Paralysis, in its current implementation, is another issue. The augment is actually somewhat of a sidegrade, since it provides longer duration in exchange for only allowing ground finishers. Removing the added duration provided by the augment would make it a clear downgrade. 

I ain’t a Valkyr main, but I do know that Hysteria’s ground finishers are pretty ridiculous. Combine a build with decent range and that augment, and you are now a vacuum cleaner with Hysteria’s ground finishers as a meat grinder. The ground finishers will hit almost everyone you've sucked in, and you can do a ground finisher once for each enemy.

I do agree that the augment should probably get something to compensate its loss of a duration buff, though.

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

The ability was written to calculate off of the total amount of damage Valkyr had taken

Does it scale its health-efficiency with armor like Rage does?

Also, you didn’t comment on my re-(re-?)rework of Bless (copypasta’d for convenience.)

Spoiler

On 4/24/2016 at 11:00 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP and shields is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is. However, the heal only applies to allies within a base range of 20 meters.
Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad based only on the HP healed by the ability, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains only from Blessing’s “buffer,” with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)
Optional synergy with Well of Life: all healing done by Well of Life during Blessing is added to the QT buffer.

Blessing is no longer infinite-range except in its squad-support capacity, and it needs to heal to support the squad in that way.

 

I think it’s not enough of a nerf that current healing skills can really compete with it, but IMO most or all should be buffed anyway. It definitely does address the infinite range bit.

Would it be fair to give a small amount of “free” QT buffer on top of any healing so that you can save a distant squad member if the damage they're taking isn’t too high?

[KingSolir]

I like all the changes that this thread has for chroma, but elemental ward can't just stay as an aura around chroma, nobody stays right next to another frame for buffs, ive never seen it be effectively, because it really can't be, so most people use Narrow Minded and destroy his range. The effects of elemental ward (Health Bonus, Shield Bonus, Reload Speed and Holster rate,Armor Bonus) Need to stick to other players like rhino/valkyr's buffs.

the changes you put down for spectral scream are all good it just needs added ground effects that can cause status effects, this would give him a little crowd control.

Vex armor is good but it really needs to be recastable, I hate needing to look back and forth at the gameplay and the timer on my skills, then decide, oh i need to go hide now, IM A DAMN TANK, i should be taking damage for my team, not hiding while they are getting downed, but wait I would still need to hide to wait for my shields to be full or i won't get the armor buff, the whole damn concept of only getting the more improtant buff when i haven't been a battle for a while seems a little off, Keep in mind that valkyr gets full on invincibility for next to no cost.

[--Q--uaint]

18 hours ago, UndeadGunman said:

ive never seen it be effectively, because it really can’t be

Particularly in Infested missions, a Fire Chroma can be very helpful by providing periodic heals.

[KingSolir]

40 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Particularly in Infested missions, a Fire Chroma can be very helpful by providing periodic heals.

Ok i guess if you had an organised party with voice chat you could tell your team to come right next to you for a heal, but there are much more efficient ways of getting healing, Im not willing to rely on a Chroma as a healer.

[Archwizard]

In honor of our discussions over energy availability and power creep, I pushed the question to the devs in this week's Devstream post.

^{_{He asked if I could make my questions any longer, so I obliged.}}

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Particularly in Infested missions, a Fire Chroma can be very helpful by providing periodic heals.

honestly, i'd rather have an Oberon for Healing than a Fire Chroma - it's.... a lot more reliable.
unless the Chroma tanks his Duration... but then he's just a Health pulser and the rest of his Abilities have been made very bad.

[Aquasurge]

so, another QoL for volt in devstream 73. riot volt confirmed

[Azamagon]

8 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

so, another QoL for volt in devstream 73. riot volt confirmed

Sadly, from AM-bunny's Devstream overview, you can tell that the developers don't read the forums much. I quote:

Volt's Riot Shield
• Volt's revamp has been updated to include a Riot Shield feature that came from community member Server

Yeaaaah, that suggestion for Electric Shield has been brought up a multitude of times, yet only one specific dude gets credit for the idea? Dunno wether to laugh or cry...

[--Q--uaint]

14 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

the developers don’t read the forums much

There’s a lot of forum to read.

12 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

yet only one specific dude gets credit for the idea

He got credit because he used Twitter to poke Steve while he was working with Volt to find out his thoughts.

It’s basically a right-place-right-time thing.

[Gurpgork]

21 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Yeaaaah, that suggestion for Electric Shield has been brought up a multitude of times, yet only one specific dude gets credit for the idea? Dunno wether to laugh or cry...

They actually talked a bit about it on the stream. They mentioned Server at first, and then said that it had been brought up in a multitude of forum threads by many different posters, and that they could not attribute it to just one person. 

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

They actually talked a bit about it on the stream. They mentioned Server at first, and then said that it had been brought up in a multitude of forum threads by many different posters, and that they could not attribute it to just one person. 

Good to hear, thanks for clarifying that!