Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

i am quite okay with Sprectral Scream leaving ground effects based on Elemental.
normally i am for tap to switch and hold to use, however, with how not constantly or emergency you expect to be swapping Elementals, Hold for that one is probably fine.

I'd just like to note that ever since they've put the option to switch hold/tap functions on the options menu, it doesn't make sense to argue whether which swap or cast should be tap or hold, since the same action should always be attached to the same default trigger in all frames, to prevent discrepancies.

That's all. Please carry on with the good discussion.

[RunningTree3]

On 7/19/2016 at 0:38 AM, Gurpgork said:

If I'm not mistaken, @taiiat was being sarcastic while @Aquasurge was not. 

To a certain extent, I agree with both of them. While it is annoying to be restricted to only one weapon, most secondaries end up having more DPS than most primaries anyway, so it's not much of a restriction in the end. _{Unless you just spam Tonkor.}

OK. I simply got frustrated by the indirectness of replies. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

 

IMO, Spectral Scream should have 100% status chance, reduced energy drain, perhaps a buff to its AoE, and a bit more character/CC with each element:

+1 to Spectral Scream getting 100% status chance, but would probably consider that a fair enough improvement IMO.

 

On 7/18/2016 at 5:26 PM, RunningTree3 said:

Well, ala Volt, why not just have it be 'X' to mount/dismount Effigy. Secondaries only. Other abilities usable (second turret with Spectral Scream!) Moving around drains extra energy.

After reading the discussion so far, I change my mind on this: I would now prefer no weapons allowed if mounting Effigy. This would turn the point of mounting into:

* an option to protect Chroma himself, who is otherwise at reduced armour -- enemies aggro and attack the health of Effigy instead;

* a movable Effigy;

* while still allowing the use of Chroma's warframe abilities

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I'd just like to note that ever since they've put the option to switch hold/tap functions on the options menu, it doesn't make sense to argue whether which swap or cast should be tap or hold, since the same action should always be attached to the same default trigger in all frames, to prevent discrepancies.

the option is a 'reverse toggle' as i understand it however, so which way it is on every Ability would still matter.

[Astery86]

I really like Mag's pull related suggestions in the OP that I kept half expecting it to be working like that after the rework since it makes sense, only to be disappointed and frustrated whenever I forgot it doesn't work that way in game.

[tnccs215]

So, Despoil will be a toggle....

[Archwizard]

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

So, Despoil will be a toggle....

And it still won't improve the kit any.
Congrats kids, you managed to have your cake and eat it too; it's officially graduated from an ability you work for at the expense of all else, to an effect that you ignore completely that just passively churns out loot. Playing Nekros will be so exciting.

Sorry, I realize that being sardonic isn't a substitute for feedback, but it was the wrong choice. I'm glad that DE finally did something about Desecrate to kill the 3-spam meme, but now you have a button you'll tap once at the start of the match and then ignore (especially with Despoil paying for itself). It's frustrating because it's still RNG on top of existing RNG - a placebo effect for grinding, since you're statistically as likely to receive what you want whether or not you have a Nekros or Hydroid or Ivara or Atlas there for you (your odds of rolling a 6 on a die are the same every time the die is cast, and you have no guarantees no matter how many times you cast it).

[tnccs215]

33 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Sorry, I realize that being sardonic isn't a substitute for feedback

Please, I came here specifically for that, because I knew you had stuff to let out.

The moment I heard about it, I cringed. Quite like when the Sibear was released, this seems like DE acknowledging compulsive farming as a feature. Now it doesn't even cost anything! Truly, this move was basically allowing the kid not to eat the vegetables: Instead of reworking it, of fixing what was inherently wrong and harms the game in both the long and short runs, they simply make it passive. Instead of making us focus on other abilities because despoil no longer is virtually mandatory, they made us able to focus on other abilities while using despoil. Yes, it is good for Nekros users, but his position as the farming frame is kept.

I'm annoyed, at the very least.

Ugh, oh well. Honestly, I'd love to see DE saying it cannot spawn resources nor mods, but I doubt that will happen.

[taiiat]

Nekros is so totally usable though. granted only in a couple specific ways, but Despoil + Equilibrium is f...ing perfect IMO. i can use all of the Abilities as much as i want!

Despoil making Desecrate a Toggle is meh. i'd legitimately rather it not be one so i can have better control on how many times i cast it within a time frame. :|

[Praxxor]

" Energy generation changes: In order to reduce "spiky" energy generation and ability spam in lootcaves -
1) Enemies now drop health orbs in place of energy orbs, and energy orbs now drop from lockers and crates at the frequency of health orbs.
2) Power Efficiency on all abilities mimics the manner in which Power Duration scales on toggled skills - instead of +50% Efficiency reducing the cost by 50%, it now increases the number of casts you can fire on the same amount of energy by 50%. (Combo effects, ie Landslide, still function as normal.)
3) All frames now have a base amount of energy regeneration. As with Energy Siphon, these effects are disabled while hard-toggled abilities are active.
4) Consumables now have a cooldown per player. "

Really dislike this part, it'd basically take most of the game to weapons and pure EHP combos, I understand that some people don't like it when others spam abilities, but this is just a terrible idea

[Archwizard]

1 minute ago, Praxxor said:

" Energy generation changes: In order to reduce "spiky" energy generation and ability spam in lootcaves -
1) Enemies now drop health orbs in place of energy orbs, and energy orbs now drop from lockers and crates at the frequency of health orbs.
2) Power Efficiency on all abilities mimics the manner in which Power Duration scales on toggled skills - instead of +50% Efficiency reducing the cost by 50%, it now increases the number of casts you can fire on the same amount of energy by 50%. (Combo effects, ie Landslide, still function as normal.)
3) All frames now have a base amount of energy regeneration. As with Energy Siphon, these effects are disabled while hard-toggled abilities are active.
4) Consumables now have a cooldown per player. "

Really dislike this part, it'd basically take most of the game to weapons and pure EHP combos, I understand that some people don't like it when others spam abilities, but this is just a terrible idea

Maybe, but the other half of this is to give the abilities themselves more scalability so that each single cast is more meaningful.

[Djego27]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

And it still won't improve the kit any.
Congrats kids, you managed to have your cake and eat it too; it's officially graduated from an ability you work for at the expense of all else, to an effect that you ignore completely that just passively churns out loot. Playing Nekros will be so exciting.

Sorry, I realize that being sardonic isn't a substitute for feedback, but it was the wrong choice. I'm glad that DE finally did something about Desecrate to kill the 3-spam meme, but now you have a button you'll tap once at the start of the match and then ignore (especially with Despoil paying for itself). It's frustrating because it's still RNG on top of existing RNG - a placebo effect for grinding, since you're statistically as likely to receive what you want whether or not you have a Nekros or Hydroid or Ivara or Atlas there for you (your odds of rolling a 6 on a die are the same every time the die is cast, and you have no guarantees no matter how many times you cast it).

While I see where you are coming from and I do agree that the extra loot\life support should have a drawback, is the the current Necros game play enjoyable for the player that plays the frame?

I did play Necros a lot solo in events and for loot and I like the frame, but I don't think that anybody enjoys playing it in a group that expect you to only hammer your 3 button and only that for the hole mission. There was not a single mission today with my Necros where I did not do the most damage, highest CC(then again not hard in a pug) or most revives. However in the end I could have just used another frame, since I hardly had time to stand there and press 3.

While it might be a bit meh for balance, it is a good change for anybody that actually wants to play Necros instead of getting called out by your team if you do anything else then standing in a corner and hammer that 3 button for the hole mission.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Djego27

[Praxxor]

18 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Maybe, but the other half of this is to give the abilities themselves more scalability so that each single cast is more meaningful.

And that'd still be the end of all pure damage abilities unless their stats become completely ridiculous

Honestly, would you really consider using anything aside from weapons if these changes were implemented? It'd be easier and viable to go for pure EHP and weapon damage, and everyone will do that instead. People mostly prefer easy viable solutions over anything else that's even a tad harder, unless it just completely outshines the easy solutions.

[Archwizard]

1 minute ago, Praxxor said:

And that'd still be the end of all pure damage abilities unless their stats become completely ridiculous

Honestly, would you really consider using anything aside from weapons if these changes were implemented? It'd be easier and viable to go for pure EHP and weapon damage, and everyone will do that instead. People mostly prefer easy viable solutions over anything else that's even a tad harder, unless it just completely outshines the easy solutions.

As I said: Scalability. Right above that block you quoted is one stating that those pure damage abilities would deal damage based on a mixture of flat damage and a percentage of the target's health. If I had my way, I'd also flatten out enemy scaling so that they didn't have that exponential EHP gain from armor - luckily that's an issue that Steve has already illustrated his own concerns with as well (Bourbon List, boys).

As to the rest of your concerns, lemme put it to you this way:

One, it would have minimal impact on shorter missions. When I go soloing Exterminates or Spies, I drop one energy pad at the start and keep running - usually with a Duration build, it's surprisingly rare how many of my builds actually have max Efficiency. Y'know what it will impact? The Ember or Day!Equinox who taps 4 once and runs through the mission.

Two, do you really thing anybody will care about Valkyr's EHP in a longer mission? Chroma's? Frost's? No, they focus on the abilities they have that amplify that EHP.
Your stance hinges on the fallacy that as ability access becomes more of a commodity, the abilities themselves become more worthless. Utilities would still stay equally viable, you just wouldn't spam Radial Disarm and Blind anymore.

Three, it may surprise you, but in most cases players already go for weapon damage - usually the egregious weapons like Tonkor or a syndicate Hek. This isn't a weapon feedback thread though, so it's not a good spot to debate how much those would need to be affected.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, Praxxor said:

" Energy generation changes: In order to reduce "spiky" energy generation and ability spam in lootcaves -
1) Enemies now drop health orbs in place of energy orbs, and energy orbs now drop from lockers and crates at the frequency of health orbs.
2) Power Efficiency on all abilities mimics the manner in which Power Duration scales on toggled skills - instead of +50% Efficiency reducing the cost by 50%, it now increases the number of casts you can fire on the same amount of energy by 50%. (Combo effects, ie Landslide, still function as normal.)
3) All frames now have a base amount of energy regeneration. As with Energy Siphon, these effects are disabled while hard-toggled abilities are active.
4) Consumables now have a cooldown per player. "

Really dislike this part, it'd basically take most of the game to weapons and pure EHP combos, I understand that some people don't like it when others spam abilities, but this is just a terrible idea

Why? Because abilities no longer will be spammable?

A constant influx of energy will be ensured to each frame-- after all, part of that new system is a passive energy regen-- and that means that powers will still be useable, but less brainlessly. You'll actually have to do resource management, instead of either being able to mindlessly spam abilities due to a virtually never ending energy pool, or not being able to use abilities at all, due to an all too ended energy pool.

Honestly, you can simulate such a system by running Energy Overflow and poor energy efficiency builds. It's what I do, and I honestly find it substantially more engaging.

The only frame I regularly use that has more than 130% efficiency is my Equinox, because I like to rely on this simulated system more than the "energy drops" one, specially for soloing.

Edited July 31, 2016 by tnccs215

[Praxxor]

3 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

As I said: Scalability. Right above that block you quoted is one stating that those pure damage abilities would deal damage based on a mixture of flat damage and a percentage of the target's health. If I had my way, I'd also flatten out enemy scaling so that they didn't have that exponential EHP gain from armor - luckily that's an issue that Steve has already illustrated his own concerns with as well (Bourbon List, boys).

As to the rest of your concerns, lemme put it to you this way:

One, it would have minimal impact on shorter missions. When I go soloing Exterminates or Spies, I drop one energy pad at the start and keep running - usually with a Duration build, it's surprisingly rare how many of my builds actually have max Efficiency. Y'know what it will impact? The Ember or Day!Equinox who taps 4 once and runs through the mission.

Two, do you really thing anybody will care about Valkyr's EHP in a longer mission? Chroma's? Frost's? No, they focus on the abilities they have that amplify that EHP.
Your stance hinges on the fallacy that as ability access becomes more of a commodity, the abilities themselves become more worthless. Utilities would still stay equally viable, you just wouldn't spam Radial Disarm and Blind anymore.

Three, it may surprise you, but in most cases players already go for weapon damage - usually the egregious weapons like Tonkor or a syndicate Hek. This isn't a weapon feedback thread though, so it's not a good spot to debate how much those would need to be affected.

I didn't say that they'd be less viable or weaker, i meant that there would be less reason to build for them when your weapons can already easily kill everything that has to die (you don't even need to stay in endless missions anymore).

As for the duration based abilities and buffs, yes they won't become worthless, but there will also be fewer reasons to make a build specifically for them, again, you don't need to stay in endless missions anymore, any frame with a meh weapon can handle most of the missions that you have to do in order to get most of the stuff in-game. Except for sorties and the raids.

Oh almost forgot those, we'll need to rework at least the LoR raids because they pretty much completely depend on ability spamming, pretty sure the veterans would still be able to handle JV even with these changes though.

Yes damage scalability is needed, but i lost hope that DE would do that when they almost completely removed the scaling from Mag's polarize, I'm not saying that the old version was fine, but if they were actually going in that direction, then polarize wouldn't become an ability with set numbers. Yes they promised more scaling in abilities, sure, but I can't see that approach here.

Basically, I don't see ability scaling as a possibility until I'm given any proof other than a few words from devs. I'm not saying that they have to do one thing or the other, but the changes that I saw were different from what's needed to achieve the things that you proposed, not exactly something i can hold on to.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

I didn't say that they'd be less viable or weaker, i meant that there would be less reason to build for them when your weapons can already easily kill everything that has to die (you don't even need to stay in endless missions anymore).

As for the duration based abilities and buffs, yes they won't become worthless, but there will also be fewer reasons to make a build specifically for them, again, you don't need to stay in endless missions anymore, any frame with a meh weapon can handle most of the missions that you have to do in order to get most of the stuff in-game. Except for sorties and the raids.

Oh almost forgot those, we'll need to rework at least the LoR raids because they pretty much completely depend on ability spamming, pretty sure the veterans would still be able to handle JV even with these changes though.

Yes damage scalability is needed, but i lost hope that DE would do that when they almost completely removed the scaling from Mag's polarize, I'm not saying that the old version was fine, but if they were actually going in that direction, then polarize wouldn't become an ability with set numbers. Yes they promised more scaling in abilities, sure, but I can't see that approach here.

Basically, I don't see ability scaling as a possibility until I'm given any proof other than a few words from devs. I'm not saying that they have to do one thing or the other, but the changes that I saw were different from what's needed to achieve the things that you proposed, not exactly something i can hold on to.

*rolls eyes*

There already is next to no reason to use abilities like shuriken or fireball. Damage abilities tend to be either overpowered or underpowered, so either they are reduced to spam frames-- ash-- or people simply use weapons. No change on that, don't see why you complain.

Second, this thread was obviously built taking itself into consideration. This means that when Arch added this energy changes-- and I remember the discussion, I participated in it-- he took the changes he already proposed in consideration.

Insisting on Polarize as a damaging ability is simply being narrow minded. It can be a great debuffer-- with the right build, you can fully strip level 150 corrupted heavy gunners of their armor with 2 casts of crush and one of polarise-- and it is perfectly capable of doing good damage up to level 40.

Dev bashing is both idiotic and pointless. Admitting the devs won't do some change because "reasons" is simply being prejudicial.

Regardless of your quarrels with them, we are here to discuss and propose changes, not to be upset at their (in)actions.

[Praxxor]

9 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Why? Because abilities no longer will be spammable?

A constant influx of energy will be ensured to each frame-- after all, part of that new system is a passive energy regen-- and that means that powers will still be useable, but less brainlessly. You'll actually have to do resource management, instead of either being able to mindlessly spam abilities due to a virtually never ending energy pool, or not being able to use abilities at all, due to an all too ended energy pool.

Honestly, you can simulate such a system by running Energy Overflow and poor energy efficiency builds. It's what I do, and I honestly find it substantially more engaging.

The only frame I regularly use that has more than 130% efficiency is my Equinox, because I like to rely on this simulated system more than the "energy drops" one, specially for soloing.

This will work for me, you, OP, and a couple hundred players, but the majority of people prefer simplicity, most likely because... well, you know, because it's easier? 

For example, remember pre-"nerf" Valkyr and Saryn? Then those frames were changed and now they need a little more thought to work, I think you know how many players used negative duration Saryn for Miasma and how many used a Valkyr built for Hysteria, but those people just left for Lokis and Rhinos and the rest of the easy stuff right after those changes. They didn't want to adapt, so they mostly just gave up on those frames.

The problem is that in this case, there will be nothing to switch to, they'll be forced to adapt, or leave the game, which might cause a lot of players to leave the game, and that's not really good.

Also, i don't really use max effi builds either, I run as an Eclipse Mirage or Staggering Shield Mesa mostly, with 130 effi on both, this wouldn't even hit me that much, aside from the raids.

[Praxxor]

7 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

*rolls eyes*

There already is next to no reason to use abilities like shuriken or fireball. Damage abilities tend to be either overpowered or underpowered, so either they are reduced to spam frames-- ash-- or people simply use weapons. No change on that, don't see why you complain.

Second, this thread was obviously built taking itself into consideration. This means that when Arch added this energy changes-- and I remember the discussion, I participated in it-- he took the changes he already proposed in consideration.

Insisting on Polarize as a damaging ability is simply being narrow minded. It can be a great debuffer-- with the right build, you can fully strip level 150 corrupted heavy gunners of their armor with 2 casts of crush and one of polarise-- and it is perfectly capable of doing good damage up to level 40.

Dev bashing is both idiotic and pointless. Admitting the devs won't do some change because "reasons" is simply being prejudicial.

Regardless of your quarrels with them, we are here to discuss and propose changes, not to be upset at their (in)actions.

You are making hella lot of assumptions about me there, I'm really not going to answer any of that because half of it is your wrong interpretation on what I said. Try rereading what I said, and tell me where i mentioned Polarize and damage in the same context for a start.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Praxxor

[tnccs215]

12 hours ago, Praxxor said:

This will work for me, you, OP, and a couple hundred players, but the majority of people prefer simplicity, most likely because... well, you know, because it's easier? 

For example, remember pre-"nerf" Valkyr and Saryn? Then those frames were changed and now they need a little more thought to work, I think you know how many players used negative duration Saryn for Miasma and how many used a Valkyr built for Hysteria, but those people just left for Lokis and Rhinos and the rest of the easy stuff right after those changes. They didn't want to adapt, so they mostly just gave up on those frames.

The problem is that in this case, there will be nothing to switch to, they'll be forced to adapt, or leave the game, which might cause a lot of players to leave the game, and that's not really good.

Also, i don't really use max effi builds either, I run as an Eclipse Mirage or Staggering Shield Mesa mostly, with 130 effi on both, this wouldn't even hit me that much, aside from the raids.

With all due respect, that is quite the elitist assumption: To admit that "most people" are that lazy, and that this form of innovation would drive them away. Honestly, I doubt so. I doubt that the game will loose those many players. The game existed before Trinity spam, and the game will continue to exist after it. It won't be the end of the world. Just a feather ruffle, and the devs are quite found of those.

For someone who argued that I was wrongfully assuming a lot about you, you sure seem ok with assuming that a change should not be implemented because people are too stupid to enjoy it.

 

[Praxxor]

41 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

With all due respect, that is quite the elitist assumption: To admit that "most people" are that lazy, and that this form of innovation would drive them away. Honestly, I doubt so. I doubt that the game will loose those many players. The game existed before Trinity spam, and the game will continue to exist after it. It won't be the end of the world. Just a feather ruffle, and the devs are quite found of those.

For someone who argued that I was wrongfully assuming a lot about you, you sure seem ok with assuming that a change should not be implemented because people are too stupid to enjoy it.

 

This is not an elitist assumption, this is not something limited to this game or gaming in general, people always prefer the easy solutions if it can get the job done. Yes the devs should not crave to the stupid peoples' needs, but they don't have infinite resources, in fact, one false move and they might end up bankrupt or just overtaken by the companies that own the shares, so they have to stay as neutral as possible and do whatever the majority will like, this is not a game like WoW with rich developers like Blizzard where they can do pretty much whatever the hell they think is right and still come out alive.

Yes the solution is interesting and refreshing, but there's a high risk of a lot of people getting upset because of it if it gets implemented, DE doesn't have the foundation to take such risks, it's too early right now. But Warframe is growing fast right now, new people means new ideas, more money to the company, more backbone to make riskier decisions, who knows what can happen in the future.

 

P.S. a big part of the community is already mad about the last update, I don't see DE taking any more risks in the following months at least.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Praxxor

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Praxxor said:

P.S. a big part of the community is already mad about the last update, I don't see DE taking any more risks in the following months at least.

some unknown fraction is. with the concurrent Players being almost identical to what it was before U19 part 2 - clearly that is not the case. it's not 'most people hate the game now'. the playercount shows that isn't true.

same with what's being discussed here - listening to feedback is a good idea, but at the same time there's many things people say are evil or that they hate with a passion, and yet would continue to play (and at minimum tolerate but likely enjoy) anyways.

[Praxxor]

32 minutes ago, taiiat said:

some unknown fraction is. with the concurrent Players being almost identical to what it was before U19 part 2 - clearly that is not the case. it's not 'most people hate the game now'. the playercount shows that isn't true.

same with what's being discussed here - listening to feedback is a good idea, but at the same time there's many things people say are evil or that they hate with a passion, and yet would continue to play (and at minimum tolerate but likely enjoy) anyways.

A total conversion and basically a global nerf to ability spam - something that most people find fun, at least, will not leave a small mark.

And i didn't say that they left the game, but you should be able to see the change in attitude on the forums, a lot of the posts about the last update are : requests to re-rework stuff, to rollback the void system and the starchart, to "unnerf" the credit gains etc. Almost everyone is at least a little disappointed in something, and that disappointment should not pile up. It will pile up if these changes happen anywhere in the near future.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Praxxor said:

but you should be able to see the change in attitude on the forums

that 'attitude change' happened several years ago, once the game got popular enough that there were a lot of people around.
it's been the same way ever since then. never ending.

with another large spike once it was popular on Consoles.

[Praxxor]

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that 'attitude change' happened several years ago, once the game got popular enough that there were a lot of people around.
it's been the same way ever since then. never ending.

with another large spike once it was popular on Consoles.

Can I assume that you are just deliberately ignoring the rest? Because I already started to think that way. No use in a discussion if you are doing that.

If I was wrong about anything else, then please correct me, but I have no interest in a hollow discussion where you cherry-pick my words.

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

but I have no interest in a hollow discussion where you cherry-pick my words.

i have no interest in entertaining unfounded doom talk.
if you want to say something will cause such a large disruption, pull your experience to prove that.