Wouldn't The Tenno Primes Actually Be "bad Guys"....?

[Morec0]

There's a problem with your analogy: All human beings are not American.

 

The Orokin Empire spanned across galaxies (apparently) and included all the human beings alive at the time. There are no mention of other Empires like there are other countries on Earth.

 

Try this, then: The British Empire.

 

If you wiped out ALL British people at the time of the Empire, you wouldn't wipe out ALL HUMANS that was under its rule (including Indians and parts of Africa).

 

And, as I've said: I liken the Orokin more to the empire's term of "Noble" or other government official in some regard (vanity showing up that they'd name the entire Empire after themselves then).

Edited March 21, 2014 by Morec0

[Brimir]

I think the Stalker was simply a "Guardian", not a "Low Guardian". He seems to use the term "low" in a comparative sense when talking about the high and mighty "Saviors", the Tenno. Most likely in a spiteful manner, given what is about to follow.

 

 

 

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians.

 

Note how the "low" is not capitalized like "Guardians".

 

 

 

Try this, then: The British Empire.

 

If you wiped out ALL British people at the time of the Empire, you wouldn't wipe out ALL HUMANS that was under its rule (including Indians and parts of Africa).

 

Again, no that simply doesn't work because at no point did the British Empire include all human beings on Earth.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Morec0]

I think the Stalker was simply a "Guardian", not a "Low Guardian". He seems to use the term "low" in a comparative sense when talking about the high and mighty "Saviors", the Tenno. Most likely in a spiteful manner, given what is about to follow.

 

 

 

 

Note how the "low" is not capitalized like "Guardians".

 

 

 

 

Again, no that simply doesn't work because at no point did the British Empire include all human beings on Earth.

 

... Hmm, interesting point: still of the mind he IS/WAS a Tenno who held the Orokin in high respect and wouldn't have dreamed of turning on them, but your point DOES poke a lot of holes in that theory.

[Llyssa]

Given the evidence we do have though, it is probable that they were humans.

No, it's not.

 

Dark Sector is part of Warframe Lore. In DS, some outside entities introduced an alien virus that various governments of earth then tried to use to their advantage. So right from the get go, clearly they're not from earth.

 

Secondly, the voids and the derelicts--NONE of it looks meaningful to human eyes. Endless halls of white with gold trim, with little to no apparent function or purpose to any of it. Why build a single place made of endless mazes of marble? Why build millions? Orokin design is completely pointless from a human perspective--as one person put it, "it looks like an endless string of hotel lobbies". Either we have to believe the level designers are terrible at their job, or the orokin experience doesn't match the human experience at all.

 

Thirdly, not a single sentence anywhere suggests the orokins were human. Their technology verges on magic, their ways are mysterious and strange to all mere mortals, and they're apparently okay with using humans as guinea pigs, slaves, and cannon fodder.

 

They are the most inhuman humans possible.

 

There's no reason to believe any of the current species are descended from them, or related to them in any way other than the infestation they unleashed.

[SilentMobius]

Given that Orokin equipment is perfectly designed for human hands(and that their technology is perfectly useable and easy to understand by humans), their architecture is very human-like, and that the Corpus seems to have great insight into the Orokin culture (as if they had access to records/stories passed down from generation to generation) makes it seem pretty clear to me; they were ancient humans and the current human population are their descendants.

 

I mean, sure, they could've been terrible alien overlords.... it just doesn't seem very likely in comparison to the human theory. Occam's Razor and all that.

 

We have no reason to assume any of the controls we see aren't human-centric rather made-for-Orokin-use.

 

If the Orokin ruled humanity, then It's highly likely that the majority of laborious duties would fall to humans, resulting in human-friendly controls in most of their ships.

 

It's been theorized by others that the Orokin were AI's, possibly alien or created by early humanity, uploaded consciousnesses even. I don't agree with that but there is nothing against it as an idea. Simply put the Orokin could be a almost _anything_ assuming that humanity was re-created to do their grunt work.

 

"The Orokin were human" is just another assumption with little if any grounding.

[Llyssa]

There's a problem with your analogy: All human beings are not American.

 

The Orokin Empire spanned across galaxies (apparently) and included all the human beings alive at the time. There are no mention of other Empires like there are multiple countries other than America on Earth.

More stuff you made up with no basis in anything outside your head. Oh, also, the sentients? Yeah, they'd be a seperate empire.

 

EDIT: Or better yet, multiple empires.

 

ALSO: Just because, I'd like to point out names mean something in WF, and "orokin" would mean "golden folk" or "mountain folk" depending on which way you skew the etymology. Together with their impressive engineering feats and construction initiatives, basically, tolkien-esque/norse-mythological "dwarves".

 

We are the slaves of the dwarves. Nobody but you ever said they controlled all of existence, or were all of humanity.

 

They were dwarves, and they were evil little bastards.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Llyssa

[Arlayn]

Still no excuse to kill *everyone*

hmm.... I beg to differ... Vengence is a fickle thing. If you kill one person you have to kill their family, but their family may have had people who cared about them so you need to kill them, but then you have people who care about that kind of non-sense stuff so you need to kill them, then the offended of said group so then you need to kill them... and this chain reaction of everyone you need to kill eventually leads to killing everyone Pro-Orokin. Till only the Anti-Orokin, neutral are left. Which is obviously apparent since a lot of different human groups still exist. Also Grineer are Clones... I doubt they want to re-create the Orokin, and the Corpus are too obsessed with money to care about conquest, unless conquest equals money in which it only does if the enemy lives. That is called profit through war, and is extremely successful if done right.

 

So it simply comes down to kill the Orokin, and all suppoters, and anyone who could possibly go on a crusade against the Tenno, or rebuild the Orokin in the future. Too bad they missed Stalker.

[IIJetfireII]

Ya call me evil? how dare you.

Edited March 21, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII

[Otaiken]

No, it's not.

 

Dark Sector is part of Warframe Lore. In DS, some outside entities introduced an alien virus that various governments of earth then tried to use to their advantage. So right from the get go, clearly they're not from earth.

 

Secondly, the voids and the derelicts--NONE of it looks meaningful to human eyes. Endless halls of white with gold trim, with little to no apparent function or purpose to any of it. Why build a single place made of endless mazes of marble? Why build millions? Orokin design is completely pointless from a human perspective--as one person put it, "it looks like an endless string of hotel lobbies". Either we have to believe the level designers are terrible at their job, or the orokin experience doesn't match the human experience at all.

 

Thirdly, not a single sentence anywhere suggests the orokins were human. Their technology verges on magic, their ways are mysterious and strange to all mere mortals, and they're apparently okay with using humans as guinea pigs, slaves, and cannon fodder.

 

They are the most inhuman humans possible.

 

There's no reason to believe any of the current species are descended from them, or related to them in any way other than the infestation they unleashed.

 

Some of it could be explained by Orokin being very vain and arrogant. Which seems very likely. Pointless grandeur seems to fit Oroking pretty well.. humans or not.

 

Also, it's not like the identity of Orokin is a complete mystery. Corpus know about them and obviously have records from said era. It seems to me that it's not mentioned just because it's a given from their perspective... it's obvious. Why specifically mention they are humans when there's no other alien race in the system?

 

Just like you would say.. Barack Obama was president of USA. And someone else said he wasn't a human cause it wasn't specifically addressed.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Brimir]

"The Orokin were human" is just another assumption with little if any grounding.

 

Whatever "little grounding" there is, it is the strongest theory we have.

 

The AI theory is quite laughable: why would they bleed when the Tenno killed them? Stalker's Codex entry makes it quite clear that the Orokin Emperors are of flesh and blood. Lots and lots of blood apparently.

[SilentMobius]

Dark Sector is part of Warframe Lore.

 

Much as I may agree with you in other areas I'm afraid we can't rely on DS. It is a spiritual precursor only, we can't rely on any specific part as being Canon in Warframe. Check the livestreams I've been through every one, and while there are references to specific parts there is never a "Dark Sector happened in the past of Warframe" comment

[Brimir]

Much as I may agree with you in other areas I'm afraid we can't rely on DS. It is a spiritual precursor only, we can't rely on any specific part as being Canon in Warframe. Check the livestreams I've been through every one, and while there are references to specific parts there is never a "Dark Sector happened in the past of Warframe" comment

 

Also, from what I've heard the rights to Dark Sector apparently belongs to a publisher rather than DE themselves so we would never see any of the assets of it used in Warframe anyway.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Morec0]

 

Again, no that simply doesn't work because at no point did the British Empire include all human beings on Earth.

 

*sigh* you're argument against mine is based on a generalization AGAIN; THIS TIME ONE I ADDRESSED. I didn't SAY it would ALL HUMANS in that example: I SAID ALL HUMANS UNDER ITS RULE! You would kill the British people, but the Africans and Indians would STILL BE ALIVE.

[Brimir]

No your argument is based on comparing the Orokin Empire to a country or empire on earth.

 

They just aren't compatible. What you would have to say is:

 

"You could kill all Earthlings, but you wouldn't kill all humans on Earth"

 

Which is an oxymoron.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[SilentMobius]

Whatever "little grounding" there is, it is the strongest theory we have.

 

The AI theory is quite laughable: why would they bleed when the Tenno killed them? Stalker's Codex entry makes it quite clear that the Orokin Emperors are of flesh and blood. Lots and lots of blood apparently.

 

You yourself said we don't know who else was there or how many "low guardians" or drummers there were. For all we know there were single digits-worth of Orokin Gold Android leader-forms and their royal (human) retinue, all willing to give their lives for their masters.

 

For all we know the Stalker was horrified at the Tenno killing all those _humans_ just to get to the Orokin.

 

All we really know about them is there is a lot of gold-coloured metal involved.

[Morec0]

No your argument is based on comparing the Orokin Empire to a country or empire on earth.

 

They just aren't compatible. What you would have to say is:

 

"You could kill all Earthlings, but you wouldn't kill all humans on Earth"

 

Which is an oxymoron.

 

Not if humans were off the planet.

 

And the the HELL isn't the OROKIN EMPIRE comparable to an EMPIRE as we humans of today (the same people who MADE the game) understand it? The same principle applies, only on a MUCH larger scale.

 

THE SCALE IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE!

[Methanoid]

Tenno aren't "primes".

Warframes are "primes". The Frame is only a suit, it can not be evil. 

The Tenno, however we might control that suit, are the original Tenno from the Orokin era or descendants/different ones from the time period shortly after the fall. I would say this is almost a necessity to be true that we are Tenno from after the fall of the Orokin, but still from well in the past to need to be in Cryosleep, or else our starting choices would have to be the prime warframes we used.

So if the prime wielders are evil, all Tenno are probably evil.

 

agreed.

 

sounds like "guns dont kill people, people kill people using guns"

[Brimir]

Not if humans were off the planet.

 

And the the HELL isn't the OROKIN EMPIRE comparable to an EMPIRE as we humans of today (the same people who MADE the game) understand it? The same principle applies, only on a MUCH larger scale.

 

THE SCALE IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE!

 

No it is not comparable.

 

An Empire on earth would never encompass all the human beings in existence.

 

As far as we know, the Orokin Empire encompassed all the human beings in existence at the time.

 

It is not a matter of scale, but a matter of %.

[Otaiken]

You yourself said we don't know who else was there or how many "low guardians" or drummers there were. For all we know there were single digits-worth of Orokin Gold Android leader-forms and their royal (human) retinue, all willing to give their lives for their masters.

 

For all we know the Stalker was horrified at the Tenno killing all those _humans_ just to get to the Orokin.

 

All we really know about them is there is a lot of gold-coloured metal involved.

 

Well, I would agree that there's a distinct possiblity that Orokin were heavily altered by technology. They might even have some kind of neural links. Since their technology shows that they are no strangers to mind based technology. If they were connected by some kind of neural net then killing even few individuals could have pretty big impact.

 

But that would still make them humans... altered, but still humans. Not aliens.

 

Imho I don't think that even Sentients are aliens. I think they were created by the Orokin as they were tinkering with the whole mind control technology. And they used such technology, we have definitive proof in the void with its corruption self-defence mechanism.

 

Maybe they used some kind of indoctrination to keep others loyal? Alas it didn't work on Tenno and they slaughtered them.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[LukeAura]

We beat the sentients
Had a party.
Got in to a fight.
Killed some people.
Ruined our suits and put on new ones.
Then went to bed.
And when we woke up we spent hours grinding searching through our place trying to find the pieces of our going out outfit. 

We're not evil.
Just drunks.
And our regular Warframes are pyjamas.

 

[Morec0]

No it is not comparable.

 

An Empire on earth would never encompass all the human beings in existence.

 

As far as we know, the Orokin Empire encompassed all the human beings in existence at the time.

 

It is not a matter of scale, but a matter of %.

 

That's why in that British example I never refereed to THE REST of humanity, JUST to the people INSIDE of the British Empire.

 

Okay, so the Orokin Empire controls everything. Does that make EVERYONE under their rule Orokin automatically? No! In the same way that everyone under British rule wasn't a British ctizien and in the same way that today America has something a hold on the Philippines but they themselves are not considered American.

 

Precentages don't matter because I kept my examlple excluded from the rest of humanity. I never mentioned the Frech or Spanish Empires, they weren't a part of the Example. I was focused on the British territories ONLY. YOU overlook that to try and prove your point.

[Brimir]

Imho I don't think that even Sentients are aliens. I think they were created by the Orokin as they were tinkering with the whole mind control technology. And they used such technology, we have definitive proof in the void with its corruption self-defence mechanism.

 

 

 

 

I think The Sentients were most likely rouge artificial intelligences; either Orokin technology gone berserk (rampancy) or of alien origins, a rogue signal found floating around in space.

 

 - The name implies that the sentience is an unusual or otherwise unexpected trait i.e you don't name something "The Sentients" unless you expect it to not be sentient in the first place.

 

 - Excalibro's Lore entry mentions the that they were able to "turn our weapons against us". Given that the Orokin had a fondness for drone and robotics technology this also supports the AI theory.

 

 - The Tenno would not be affected by their control over artificial beings and as such have a distinct advantage over them. The Tenno did pretty much crush the Sentients after all.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Otaiken]

I think The Sentients were most likely rouge artificial intelligences; either of Orokin origin that went out of control or of alien origins.

 

 - The name implies that the sentience is an unusual or otherwise unexpected trait i.e you don't name something "The Sentients" unless you expect it to not be sentient in the first place.

 

 - Excalibro's Lore entry mentions the that they were able to "turn our weapons against us". Given that the Orokin had a fondness for drone and robotics technology this also supports the AI theory.

 

 - The Tenno would not be affected by their control over artificial beings and as such have a distinct advantage over them. The Tenno did pretty much crush the Sentients after all.

 

I think it applies to the technocyte virus and infested. Lotus said in the old dialogue about golem, that it was created as a weapon against sentients in the great war. So Orokin created/tinkered with technocyte virus as a weapon against Sentients. But it backfired and the Sentients were able to turn it agaist them.. hence the infestation was born. Now Orokin found something that was supposed to be their ultimate weapon becoming their doom.

 

Tenno are humans infected by technocyte virus (you are of our flesh and all that jazz infested bosses say) that managed to survive and developed certain powers. I'm not sure whether it's natural or result of Orokin experimentation. Originally reclusive exiles, Orokin then took them and built frames around them as a conduit for their powers. And since Tenno were immune to the technocyte they were able to break through hordes of infested and push Sentients back. 

 

So Sentients might actually be biological or fusion of technology and biological tissue.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Brimir]

Actually, I think that the Infested greatly supports the idea of the Sentients being AIs.

 

 - The Infested are undoubtedly organic, making them also immune to the Sentients' control. If the Sentients were AIs capable of controlling artificial beings, something like the Infested would make a good counter against them.

 

The problem is that the Orokin were careless and didn't realize the consequences of releasing the Infestation upon the galaxy. Like the creation of the Tenno it would've been an act out of great desperation.

[MisterUltimate]

Not everyone under British rule was British. Not everyone under Roman rule was Roman. Not everyone under Ottoman rule was Ottoman.

It is entirely possible that humanity was ruled by the Orokin Empire, that every Orokin Citizen was killed, and that there were still humans alive afterward.

It is also possible that the Stalker used some means to stay alive for hundreds of years despite not entering cryo sleep and went mad, and we shouldn't take his word for anything.

Although, considering that when the Lotus wants to send a message, she tells us to kill every living thing we see, at this point, I'm leaning towards the Stalker's version of events.