[Devstream 25] Old Helmets Losing Stats : De, There Are Better Ways To Do This

[Palamudin]

its all gonna go tf2 hats crep downstream now.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

So instead of them adding a system to the game and making it better/balancing trade-offs you'd rather just let the Rhino that already have Vanguards be around forever?

 

Yep, $&*&*#(%& isn't it. 

 

I'm just going to say, DE...

 

[Palamudin]

I like my vanguard, makes my rhino plausible even without zorokopting or ruining my build to introduce charge (that has not been used for ages, that's exaliburs skill, rhino needs no charge.)

tho... if i would loose it i would just go back to zorokopting witch would probably annoy starters even more considering the hate they have for rhino.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Palamudin

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

I like my vanguard, makes my rhino plausible even without zorokopting or ruining my build to introduce charge (that has not been used for ages, that's exaliburs skill, rhino needs no charge.)

tho... if i would loose it i would just go back to zorokopting witch would probably annoy starters even more considering the hate they have for rhino.

 

It just covers the issue that Rhino is currently frustratingly slow without the Vanguard helm. So it doesn't actually fix that issue at all, the underlying problem still remains, it just screw things for the new players who won't have the helms, while those of us that do are going to say what "Ha sucks for you"? Great way to establish replayability in the game when you know as a new player you'd never get the things the old players have. 

 

Edit:

 

This is the kind of shift that turns a FTP game into a pay to win game, which almost always crashes and burns as the player base gets fed up with it and leaves. 

 

Zoren coptering seems like it's going to be nerfed with the new Melee 2.0 apparently.

Edited March 22, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

There is only one way to make everyone happy taking the stats away is not a solution we need a split from the current system.

 

1. A cosmetic helmet slot.

 

2. A stat trade-off slot

 

This would make it fun/fair for everyone and I have no idea why this isn't immediately apparent.  This is an easy way to make everyone happy.  People who have the helmets currently would just get the corresponding trade-off cards or whatever they would be called.  This would even open up new possibilities for all the frames in terms of viable builds and would just generally be more fun for everyone involved.

Have this added with abilities 2.0. However I'm in the crowd where its seems to be the in the "middlecrowd". Accessories such as armor and helmets or "cosmetics" add more diverse build rather than having calculation conflicts with" powerbuilds" and endgame strategies. Maybe have:

1. That cosmetic slot (helmet)

2. Armour slot

3. Syanadana slot

For new and existing fan base have the stat points relocated on whichever slot.

Stat Points: Speed +10% Power+10% Duration+10 Health+10% Energy+10%

Players can then equip These points to one of the above 3 which also gives them -value.

Ill use Rhino Prime since he is very popular and is striking increasing debate about stats in general along with the "Primes vs Regular" and "Primes vs Primes" topics.

My Rhipri has the Thrak helmet equipped with Orokin Commander Armour and Misa Scarf:

Since Rhipri has a "speed boost" already make him a Flash and put all points as speed. Each slot would take 3 points which include - values.

1. Thrak- 10% speed - 10power

2. ^

3. ^

Essentially he's incredibly fast while decreasing his offensive tank stats like ironskin.

Mix and match these provides customization, diversity, fairness, endgame FOR new and existing fan base.

My opinion and ideas feel free to criticize. Sorry for the long read.

[Chaosdreamer]

Wait then , We will be able to "Keep out helmet with stats" and craft statless in same time? or it will be " Choose , once you take that option is over no way to go back ?"

[Brozime]

Have this added with abilities 2.0. However I'm in the crowd where its seems to be the in the "middlecrowd". Accessories such as armor and helmets or "cosmetics" add more diverse build rather than having calculation conflicts with" powerbuilds" and endgame strategies. Maybe have:

1. That cosmetic slot (helmet)

2. Armour slot

3. Syanadana slot

For new and existing fan base have the stat points relocated on whichever slot.

Stat Points: Speed +10% Power+10% Duration+10 Health+10% Energy+10%

Players can then equip These points to one of the above 3 which also gives them -value.

Ill use Rhino Prime since he is very popular and is striking increasing debate about stats in general along with the "Primes vs Regular" and "Primes vs Primes" topics.

My Rhipri has the Thrak helmet equipped with Orokin Commander Armour and Misa Scarf:

Since Rhipri has a "speed boost" already make him a Flash and put all points as speed. Each slot would take 3 points which include - values.

1. Thrak- 10% speed - 10power

2. ^

3. ^

Essentially he's incredibly fast while decreasing his offensive tank stats like ironskin.

Mix and match these provides customization, diversity, fairness, endgame FOR new and existing fan base.

My opinion and ideas feel free to criticize. Sorry for the long read.

While this is interesting currently Syandana are obtainable via plat only so this system would conflict with the current very very good ftp model they're in.  Also this would be an interesting change but would probably be much more complicated to implement simply separating the stats from the helmets and giving all frames the same or slightly different stat changes would be a much easier and is a solution to the current problem. 

Edited March 22, 2014 by Brozime

[AuroraSonicBoom]

The issue made me realize that it's not even specifically about helmet stats in general but the unsubstantiated speed buff for vanguard users. No other helmet stat is as game breaking as that one.

 

Rhino players shouldn't move fast, in fact should have one of the slowest, if not the slowest movement speed in the game. The fact that these consecutive buffs turned that upside down is just mindboggling. If they go through with the stat retirement and let players keep  their stat helmets the vanguard helmet needs to be nerfed into the ground.

 

Playing slow frames isn't frustrating, it's just slow. Don't be so naive and use that as an excuse to break the balance of a whole frame and balance between frames.

[Noble_Cactus]

It is frustrating in a game that promotes going fast. Outside of Defense, anyway.

 

Perhaps it's a bit too much of a boost, but to be honest, I've never played with a fast Rhino and thought "OH I FEEL SO INVALIDATED" just because he's using Vanguard. I usually have other ways of keeping up. I  only get annoyed with not being able to keep up when I'm grouped with a rusher who makes a beeline toward the exit without even killing everything on the way. it's like, why even play multiplayer then if your strategy involves having to wait for everyone to catch up to you. But that's neither here nor there.

 

I still think the best way to go about it would be to buff the speed of some of the frailer frames who you'd expect to go faster (Banshee, Ember, etc.), buff Frost and Saryn's speed up to at least 1.0, and keep Rhino's current speed. That way, Rhino players still get to go fast, but he is no longer faster than the game's squishier frames. Balance is achieved without p.issing off an entire subgroup of players, most of whom comprise this game's playerbase.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Zoren coptering seems like it's going to be nerfed with the new Melee 2.0 apparently.

Maybe. DE tried to nerf it once before and reverted that change due to fan outcry, so they know that unless there's something *like* zorencopters in effect, there will be a huge uproar from everyone.

Rhino players shouldn't move fast, in fact should have one of the slowest, if not the slowest movement speed in the game.

Let's be honest here, no frame should be so slow that he can't keep up with the others. That goes against the co-op premise of the game and just makes things unfun for everyone involved. Fast players have to wait for an extra minute on the slow Rhino to huff and puff his way to extraction, and slow Rhino doesn't get a chance to kill anything because everyone else outpaces him.

This is how Rhino was back before Vanguard was released. I still mained him even then because I love his aesthetics, but I was driven to play primarily solo because it's no fun being outrun by everyone else and getting 3 kills to everyone else's 30.

Playing slow frames isn't frustrating, it's just slow.

Being slow is frustrating when everyone else is zooming ahead and killing everything before you even get a chance to take a shot, broseph.

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

It is quite radical and would be time consuming from a developer standpoint. Extension like the Santana situation 'could' be a mission or event reward in T4 assassinate or The Conquer mode, a simple looking one like a small necklace but the one I bought with platinum will still have its exclusive look. Give players new and with no play to get one also possibly in their mind purchase a cooler one with plat.

DE can't will not ever satisfy all of us but removing a helmet with stats because people complain isn't a good move in my opinion. All warframes have different stats already its just DE decided with cosmetics add + - effects which add to gameplay. It can be a number game of stats and endgame gear but I think they didn't execute that are well enough so disbanded it.

I agree on the point of trinity, the powers duration helmet has the duration but the other helmet has nothing and looks better. Nekros' Raknis looks awesome but has no effects at all! THIS makes me play the numbers game, just an example of good design bad execution. In the beginning if I couldve put those stat points on Trinitys other helm I'd use it.

Didn't the last Devstream confirm it though that DE is just removing it?

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

maybe DE will think about adding the helmet stats separated and useable for every frame if we repeat it often enough :/ 

 

[Freikugel]

I believe that the best compromise would be to do as mentioned earlier and simply change the current existing effects on helmets into a mod that can be added/removed at will.  

 

As for Rhino and the Vanguard helmet, that issue is much more complex and should be addressed separately.  Short of making all frames run at the same speed, save for mod boosts, I am not even sure of what the best solution would be. 

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Maybe. DE tried to nerf it once before and reverted that change due to fan outcry, so they know that unless there's something *like* zorencopters in effect, there will be a huge uproar from everyone.

 

 

See that just strikes me as $&*&*#(%&. DE needs to collectively strap on a pair of balls and bite the bullet.

 

It's clearly a stupid system "zorencoptering" but if they'd actually address the underlying issue of the daft 25% speed boost on the Vanguard helm, boost Rhino's flat sprint speed (instead they buffed the Prime's one and left normal Rhino at 0.90) Addressed Frost and Saryn speeds (Frost needs an overhaul, but that's another kettle of fish entirely) then Zorencoptering being removed would be less of an issue. As the underlying problem would have been addressed.

 

Keeping things like the Vanguard helm and going half arsed on buffs by tinkering about the edges, or leaving things like coptering in. Doesn't actually fix the problem (frustratingly slow frames) it just puts a temporary measure in which is only going to get worse as more things are added or taken out. 

 

Things need to be established now, at the point where there is still enough flexibility. I don't like to think what will happen when the Focus system comes in and they have a new set of stats to balance, old and new players with/without stats on helms, Zoren coptering still in the game. I see a trainwreck coming down the line unless they set out a clear path of what it is they want to do and how they want to balance things. At the moment it seems more a hodge podge of one foot in one foot out. 

 

If they want to keep helmets with stats, fine. But balance them and rejiggle the buffs and con types on each helm as well as the % lvl depending on the frame, or go all the way and strip the stats then implement them across the board within the Focus system or another drop down so they aren't lost entirely and can be selected from a pool.

 

Currently the mix of haves and have nots on the stat side of the helms is a mess. 

Edited March 22, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[ZephyrPhantom]

Bump - just gonna put another interesting suggestion just made here that proposes the helmet stats instead be a separate 'mod' slot similar to an aura, while the helmet itself is cosmetic.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Bump - just gonna put another interesting suggestion just made here that proposes the helmet stats instead be a separate 'mod' slot similar to an aura, while the helmet itself is cosmetic.

Unfortunately, I don't think DE will do a change like that at all, even though a majority of players have been in favor of similar changes to that. I really think DE is shooting themselves in the foot with their proposed change.

 

Quite a shame, really, because it'd make so many players happy

 

Then again, I'm honestly not too surprised they see what has been generally accepted as a good idea and instead decided to go with a completely terrible idea. Sometimes makes me wonder why we provide feedback at all. But, I'm gonna stop myself there before I completely derail the thread.

[Gamem]

Not going to lie, but DE, this to me, a coder, seems like the most half though put together easiest way out idea ever. Wouldn't it be better to have a pool of effects you can do? That way it allows you to make more helmets, and maybe add more effects later on. Or just keep the effects we have now and not make anymore. It isn't like the helmets help you against level 80's. The abilities are one of the awesome effects of the helmet. Why would you take something that good away? 

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Not going to lie, but DE, this to me, a coder, seems like the most half though put together easiest way out idea ever. Wouldn't it be better to have a pool of effects you can do? That way it allows you to make more helmets, and maybe add more effects later on. Or just keep the effects we have now and not make anymore. It isn't like the helmets help you against level 80's. The abilities are one of the awesome effects of the helmet. Why would you take something that good away? 

My biggest problem with their choice is that A. It's an extremely poor way to deal with it and B. It promotes more exclusivity of items than there already is in this game, and that always leads to massive problems within the community. I see no good whatsoever coming out of this proposed change of theirs.

[zuraja]

Let's be honest here, no frame should be so slow that he can't keep up with the others. That goes against the co-op premise of the game and just makes things unfun for everyone involved. Fast players have to wait for an extra minute on the slow Rhino to huff and puff his way to extraction, and slow Rhino doesn't get a chance to kill anything because everyone else outpaces him.

 

 

This.  Frankly using movement speed as a balance factor just doesn't work outside of pure pvp games.

[Kartumterek]

They need to kill zorencopter after they get done with the helmets. The benefit of being a beta player is not to be underestimated...

But seriously, kill zorencoptering as soon as you are done with the helmets

[dashashou]

I think i frigged it out ! it's a marketing scheme ! they'll flash a last chance to get stat-ed helms so  the new players spent plat on "old "  helms   then in a week or 2   they'll change  their minds .  

 

cause i just can't believe that professionals game designers  can't realized how bad there current  idea is  with out some sort of profit motive behind it 

Edited March 23, 2014 by Ravel7

[Kartumterek]

This.  Frankly using movement speed as a balance factor just doesn't work outside of pure pvp games.

Plenty of videos showing Thrak helmeted Rhinos reaching extraction well before their teammates...proper use of parkour

[TheFuryCro]

Ravel7 have the point, so this is my view of things:

 

*meanwhile in deep forest in Canada*

 

Rebeka chan: Hey, there is topic on forums about the helmet stats, great ideas and we can please everyone with these, can you make something like this; switch on/off stats on helmets?

 

Steve-o: Tell me can you print dolla bills, yo?

 

Rebeka chan: No, I can't ...

 

Steve-o: But they can, we do more complicated way with more $$$ on it. You got served.

Edited March 23, 2014 by TheFuryCro

[Glory]

So does this mean that the BPs of these helms I currently got in my Crafting table are also gonna lose their stats? Do I need to build 'em in order too get the stat'd version or can I just let them lay around?

[ZephyrPhantom]

So does this mean that the BPs of these helms I currently got in my Crafting table are also gonna lose their stats? Do I need to build 'em in order too get the stat'd version or can I just let them lay around?

I think it's best to assume that all those helmet BPs will probably become statless, too - based on the announcement only completed helms you have will retain their stats.