Hitscan Needs To Go

[DrPandisimo]

Most shooters don't shove "NINJA NINJA NINJA NINJA!!!!!!" down their players throats at every oppertunity. Dodging bullets would totally be consistant with WF's feel.

 

To dodge a bullet successfully you'd need a reaction speed of <0.2 seconds and be at least 500 feet away from the shooter. Please tell me more about how non-hitscan is the way forward. 

[OblivionNecroninja]

To dodge a bullet successfully you'd need a reaction speed of <0.2 seconds and be at least 500 feet away from the shooter. Please tell me more about how non-hitscan is the way forward. 

Again, unrealisticly low projectile speeds. 

[DrPandisimo]

Again, unrealisticly low projectile speeds. 

 

Utterly pointless.

[OblivionNecroninja]

Utterly pointless.

How? No, seriously, how is making stuff dodgeable pointless?

[DrPandisimo]

How? No, seriously, how is making stuff dodgeable pointless?

 

"Let us able to dodge bullets by making them travel slow enough that we can dodge them when we are really close to an enemy" < That's you, with your argument. And its pointless because it makes no sense, and doesn't really add anything to the game. That would be like going: "Right guys, lets make our AR's shoot at a hysterically low FPS, so that the other guys can have a chance at dodging the bullets, yeah?"

[LGear]

Most shooters don't shove "NINJA NINJA NINJA NINJA!!!!!!" down their players throats at every oppertunity. Dodging bullets would totally be consistant with WF's feel.

 

Well if you want to be realistic, ninjas don't dodge bullets: they just make sure they never even get shot at in the first place... which is what we're supposed to be doing, bar defensive powers like Iron Skin or Turbulence. Playing Solo the past few days due to crappy connection while leveling up weapons, I play Warframe much like a standard shooter: take cover when possible, shoot from cover, and retreat when enemy fire gets too heavy. If I do end up in the open under heavy fire, I roll and let my shields take a couple of hits so I can get back into cover. Dodging bullets is supposed to be more due to player skill and awareness on the player's side and less The Matrix.

 

Also, if you want hitscan weapons removed from enemies, would that mean player weapons should get the same nerf as well just for balance? Weapons that are hitscan for us are also hitscan for the enemies and vice versa afterall, since most of the time we use the same weapons our enemies do. They do tweak them sometimes so the same weapon may have different properties, but most of the time these changes don't affect essentials like whether a weapon is hitscan or not. Thus, by removing hitscan, and slowing down projectile flight speed to be dodgeable, many weapons get directly nerfed. You can dodge their bullets now, but so can your enemies dodge yours. It'd result in the entire system of gunplay becoming hilariously ineffective and generally not fun. If I wanted to play with slow-moving bullets and dodging, I'd play a bullet hell shoot-em-up.

Edited April 7, 2014 by LGear

[DiabolusUrsus]

I'm in support of an expanded dodging function. The solution isn't removing hitscan weapons (though I'm not entirely against that for different reasons,). It's as simple as adding modifiable invulnerability frames to a Warframe's dodge roll and adding mods that affect its animation time and cooldown. You want a Warframe that can completely avoid most damage by dodging around? Sure, no problem, but expect to be squishier when you actually do get hit. 

[BloodArmoredApostle]

You can still dodge hitscan weapons. I can dodge the Grineer Heavy Gunner's Gorgon just fine.

 

It is a rank based on your mastery in game. Each mastery rank has a rank name, and Gold Hunter is one such rank. Gold Hunter is currently the highest rank attainable, rank 15.

The forums rank and ingame rank are two different things. It is based on posts in the forums not ingame rank, and I am mastery rank 14 ingame.

Edited April 7, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[ShiningArmor]

The forums rank and ingame rank are two different things. It is based on posts in the forums not ingame rank, and I am mastery rank 14 ingame.

Huh.

[XenosInfinity]

No...hitscan does not need to stay. If your that bad at the game, you shouldn't be playing or atleast you should try to practice but this is no excuse or reason why hitscan should stay.

 

Whilst I think that it kind of does, because the weapons which aren't hitscan outside of bows and Boltor Prime are the ones I've seen used least in missions, you can't tell people who have any trouble aiming that they shouldn't be playing the game period. It's a royal pain to aim them at distant targets which aren't moving predictably or stationary. Removing hitscan weaponry would be better done the way it is in Borderlands where all weapons fire actual projectiles but they're fast enough to only really be dodgeable at mid-to-long range - and that's STILL annoying for a game like Warframe where our characters are acrobatic enough that our own movement is going to cause us to miss constantly with anything less than instant bullets.

Edited April 7, 2014 by XenosInfinity

[Deristel]

i don't think that the issue is about "sidestepping" or "rolling" from a bullet incoming at you.The issue is the enemy being able most of the time to hit you,since they're pretty much aimbot+hit scan weapon even when you're sliding-jump rolling or wallrunning.I'm not expecting to dodge bullet smashing A-D keys,but when i'm doing parkour manuvers aimed at increasing my mobility i don't see how a group of grineer can just go trigger happy hitting me 99% of the time.It's well know that if a target is moving is harder to shot it.This fhing doesn't happen in warframe due to aimbot+hitscan combination,and that's the issue the op is talking about imho.

[Fubukin]

it's perfect how it is right now.

on tenno weapons, you got a selection of both. use what you feel superior.

on enemies, well, it makes the fractions feel different. most if not all grineer stuff is hitscan, most if not all corpus stuff has travel time.

eradicating one over the other would streamline and dull the game down.

[Rakosta_Kai]

i don't think that the issue is about "sidestepping" or "rolling" from a bullet incoming at you.The issue is the enemy being able most of the time to hit you,since they're pretty much aimbot+hit scan weapon even when you're sliding-jump rolling or wallrunning.I'm not expecting to dodge bullet smashing A-D keys,but when i'm doing parkour manuvers aimed at increasing my mobility i don't see how a group of grineer can just go trigger happy hitting me 99% of the time.It's well know that if a target is moving is harder to shot it.This fhing doesn't happen in warframe due to aimbot+hitscan combination,and that's the issue the op is talking about imho.

What's funny to me about this subject is that the enemies aim is pretty poor now.

Leaders and Heavies have slightly better aim, but only slightly.

 

If a player is dying due to fire from hitscan weapons from AI enemies, they are:

outnumbered

surrounded

in an exposed position

standing still

of significantly lower level and aren't modded for defense at all

or they are simply not paying attention.

 

Frankly, I'd rather see enemies become fewer but become way more dangerous in the process. Comparable to the Cerberus soldiers in ME3 multiplayers.

Most of the complaints people harbor about this game would evaporate if that happened.

 

Of course, that would also kill the relaxing casual feel the game has now.

[OblivionNecroninja]

i don't think that the issue is about "sidestepping" or "rolling" from a bullet incoming at you.The issue is the enemy being able most of the time to hit you,since they're pretty much aimbot+hit scan weapon even when you're sliding-jump rolling or wallrunning.I'm not expecting to dodge bullet smashing A-D keys,but when i'm doing parkour manuvers aimed at increasing my mobility i don't see how a group of grineer can just go trigger happy hitting me 99% of the time.It's well know that if a target is moving is harder to shot it.This fhing doesn't happen in warframe due to aimbot+hitscan combination,and that's the issue the op is talking about imho.

This. This what I've been trying to say.

[Deristel]

What's funny to me about this subject is that the enemies aim is pretty poor now.

Leaders and Heavies have slightly better aim, but only slightly.

 

If a player is dying due to fire from hitscan weapons from AI enemies, they are:

outnumbered

surrounded

in an exposed position

standing still

of significantly lower level and aren't modded for defense at all

or they are simply not paying attention.

 

Frankly, I'd rather see enemies become fewer but become way more dangerous in the process. Comparable to the Cerberus soldiers in ME3 multiplayers.

Most of the complaints people harbor about this game would evaporate if that happened.

 

Of course, that would also kill the relaxing casual feel the game has now.

i don't have issues with most of the normal mob range,but you gotta admit that,for how mobs stats scaling is set,it takes a verry little time to die versus a horde of lvl 60+ mobs when swarmed.And when swarmed,you can't really rely on cover because you'll pretty much be hit from every angle.At that point of the game the best thing to do is move constantly to avoid as much fire as possible to reach a safe spot to let shield recharge,wich,currently is impossible due to aimbot+hit scan.As things stands he questions isn't "Can i move fast enough to avoid as much bullets as i can?" is more like "Do i have enough shield armor and healt to reach point B from point A?"

[Mazikeen]

Most fights occurs within 50 m, long range in this game is around 100 m.

Bullet speed of current assault riffles are something between 700 m/s (AK47 which could be compared to the Karak) and 1000 m/s (M16, which could be compared to a Braton). Since the game is in the future, technology might have improved and speed might be even higher.

So... We are going to dodge in less than 0.05 sec in most cases (time between the shot is fired, we reacted and moved, while being 50 m away). Even when considering a perfect reaction time of 0 (that very few players can achieve, if not none), that would be a damn fast animation, almost a teleportation.

Hit scan looks like a valid approximation. Unless the speed of tennos is increased by huge amounts, dodging is pointless once the shot is fired. To dodge such bullets, the movement has to start before the shot.

[Deristel]

Most fights occurs within 50 m, long range in this game is around 100 m.

Bullet speed of current assault riffles are something between 700 m/s (AK47 which could be compared to the Karak) and 1000 m/s (M16, which could be compared to a Braton). Since the game is in the future, technology might have improved and speed might be even higher.

So... We are going to dodge in less than 0.05 sec in most cases (time between the shot is fired, we reacted and moved, while being 50 m away). Even when considering a perfect reaction time of 0 (that very few players can achieve, if not none), that would be a damn fast animation, almost a teleportation.

Hit scan looks like a valid approximation. Unless the speed of tennos is increased by huge amounts, dodging is pointless once the shot is fired. To dodge such bullets, the movement has to start before the shot.

and i totally agree with you.I would find stupid to dodge in a matrix manner something that is not a bombard missle.But when you're already moving in animation like wallrunning or you're under fire so you start sliding behind cover or whatever evasive manouver you do,you still get hit by hitscan weapon like if you are stationary.That's the whole issue that the op is pointing out.

[Mazikeen]

and i totally agree with you.I would find stupid to dodge in a matrix manner something that is not a bombard missle.But when you're already moving in animation like wallrunning or you're under fire so you start sliding behind cover or whatever evasive manouver you do,you still get hit by hitscan weapon like if you are stationary.That's the whole issue that the op is pointing out.

I'm not sure whether this kind of behaviour is really linked to hitscan weapons or not. I think it could be due to the spray and pray nature of the weapons Grineer use (grakata, strun/sobek, gorgon). These weapons cover a quite huge area, and, whether we are stationary or moving, only 10 to 50% of the bullets will hir us (numbers out of nowhere), but at least some bullets (10%) will always hit.

The ballistica for instance (with a vulkar) almost never hits us when we are moving. Even though the vulkar is hitscan, it is precise. I usually observe the same kind of difference with shield lancers not hitting moving targets (with sicarus), same for corpus elite crewmen (with flux riffles) and railgun moa.

Just giving grineer soldiers more precise weapons (karak, soma) might solve the OP's problem.

But there is a downside: being stationary would mean death (cleaning before hacking will become mandatory) and new players will be highly frustrated until they learn to never stop moving.

[Deristel]

I'm not sure whether this kind of behaviour is really linked to hitscan weapons or not. I think it could be due to the spray and pray nature of the weapons Grineer use (grakata, strun/sobek, gorgon). These weapons cover a quite huge area, and, whether we are stationary or moving, only 10 to 50% of the bullets will hir us (numbers out of nowhere), but at least some bullets (10%) will always hit.

The ballistica for instance (with a vulkar) almost never hits us when we are moving. Even though the vulkar is hitscan, it is precise. I usually observe the same kind of difference with shield lancers not hitting moving targets (with sicarus), same for corpus elite crewmen (with flux riffles) and railgun moa.

Just giving grineer soldiers more precise weapons (karak, soma) might solve the OP's problem.

But there is a downside: being stationary would mean death (cleaning before hacking will become mandatory) and new players will be highly frustrated until they learn to never stop moving.

Noone should stay still in a fps.Player need to learn to move,take cover,and to clean before they hack a console.These are all obvious things that are the basic of every fps,so i wouldn't mind it.After all,all this game should be about is to promote a quick pace never stop moving fps.

About what you said on the weapon,i can't tell you "they still hit 100% of the time because cheat".I don't know if it's due to the spray and pray nature of their weapon or what,i just know i dropped my shield and hp at the same speed than i was when standing still.Sadly is not something i can accurately point out with data.Probably it's also something that has to do with the accuracy scaling with higher level mobs (and weknow that the scaling based on level is pretty messed up on everything in this game),but also on this,i can't be sure.i'm just speculating.

[Mazikeen]

Noone should stay still in a fps.Player need to learn to move,take cover,and to clean before they hack a console.These are all obvious things that are the basic of every fps,so i wouldn't mind it.After all,all this game should be about is to promote a quick pace never stop moving fps.

About what you said on the weapon,i can't tell you "they still hit 100% of the time because cheat".I don't know if it's due to the spray and pray nature of their weapon or what,i just know i dropped my shield and hp at the same speed than i was when standing still.Sadly is not something i can accurately point out with data.Probably it's also something that has to do with the accuracy scaling with higher level mobs (and weknow that the scaling based on level is pretty messed up on everything in this game),but also on this,i can't be sure.i'm just speculating.

Since you talked about other fps games, I think we all faced the frustration of being killed by a spray and pray wepon user noob in CQC, even if he didn't aim decently.

Also, a simple experiment can be done: stand still in front a single low level grineer lancer. I think you should see a lot of bullets flying around, 1 m away from you :) Measure the time it takes for him to remove your shield. Then start again, moving around him, at a constant distance. If it takes the same time for him to drop your shield, indeed, something is wrong (if it's less, it's a very big issue). If it takes more time, then, it could be somehow fine.

You could make the same experiment with a higher level lancer, to check the accuracy improvement.

This kind of reproducable facts might help distinguishing between an unprovable feeling and a real problem.

[LGear]

Since you talked about other fps games, I think we all faced the frustration of being killed by a spray and pray wepon user noob in CQC, even if he didn't aim decently.

Also, a simple experiment can be done: stand still in front a single low level grineer lancer. I think you should see a lot of bullets flying around, 1 m away from you :) Measure the time it takes for him to remove your shield. Then start again, moving around him, at a constant distance. If it takes the same time for him to drop your shield, indeed, something is wrong (if it's less, it's a very big issue). If it takes more time, then, it could be somehow fine.

You could make the same experiment with a higher level lancer, to check the accuracy improvement.

This kind of reproducable facts might help distinguishing between an unprovable feeling and a real problem.

 

I actually did this experiment just now based on your suggestion, using a Grineer Exterminate Mission in Marid, Sedna. It is a problem getting a Lancer to just stand still and then shoot you when you're ready, considering that the Lancer is taking cover, shooting intermittently, or lobbing a plasma grenade at you. That previous two also means that you're getting inconsistent DPS with the test.

 

That said, , standing still, walking or running very close to the Lancer involves lots of hits, though that's expected. However if you sprint perpendicularly from the Lancer's fire from a distance, you have a good chance of dodging its actual shots, and I know I wasn't getting hit because my shields started regenerating even as the Lancer was still firing based on the sound of its weapon. Also, there was a time or two when I heard bullets hit with a metallic ping while I was dodging, implying that it hit a nearby metallic object like a control console.

Edited April 8, 2014 by LGear

[Monolake]

yeah those grineers could definitely use projectiles instead of hitscan (or at least aim behind player position thus you could avoid shots when moving)

[Deristel]

I actually did this experiment just now based on your suggestion, using a Grineer Exterminate Mission in Marid, Sedna. It is a problem getting a Lancer to just stand still and then shoot you when you're ready, considering that the Lancer is taking cover, shooting intermittently, or lobbing a plasma grenade at you. That previous two also means that you're getting inconsistent DPS with the test.

 

That said, , standing still, walking or running very close to the Lancer involves lots of hits, though that's expected. However if you sprint perpendicularly from the Lancer's fire from a distance, you have a good chance of dodging its actual shots, and I know I wasn't getting hit because my shields started regenerating even as the Lancer was still firing based on the sound of its weapon. Also, there was a time or two when I heard bullets hit with a metallic ping while I was dodging, implying that it hit a nearby metallic object like a control console.

Now the only issue is to understand how the ai works on that,meaning,is the aimbot faulty and will almost always miss if you move at a certain angle (perpendicular,i found that heavy machin gunner in t3 surv pretty much miss all the shot if you move in circle around that in a particular angle),or the test proved that while moving you get shot less?

[PixalatedVortex]

i agree but they should just be as fast as the particles currently are 

[RealPandemonium]

You can dodge most shots by running sideways, or even walking or running in fits and starts.  Their bullets are hitscan but their aim is imperfect in its adjustment.