Flying Enemies, Aerial Attacks And "the Sword Alone"

[Iraetus]

I did make a topic similar to this a year ago. So... I'll agree on this.

I want an Excal Skana only run pls.

[CosyPigeon]

BEGONE, FOUL NECROMANC--

 

 

Wait, thread still relevant.

Seriously, DE? It's been a month and a half and melee strikes still don't affect Orokin Shield Drones.

Technically it's been over a year now since we've been suggesting melee attacks strike where you aim, De seems more interested in making shiny new toys than fixing broken basic game play mechanics unfortunately. 

[Drejzer]

There is no way this wouldn't be fixed, is there?

It must be fixed! ASAP

And they could allow us to equip two weapons at once ( I mean that we have two with us, one drawn and one not )

Edited May 31, 2014 by Drejzer

[Casardis]

It must be fixed! ASAP

 

It should, and MANY things about Melee 2.0 needs to be checked. For instance, the Melee 2.0 Megathread maybe? What's its purpose if it's going to be left out like that for two months? What was the point of doing it in the first place?

 

No matter how many new combos they add or how they tweak certain animations to make them "look better," none of that shows that DE's focusing on Melee 2.0 even though they should have since the beginning of U13.

 

When is Melee 2.0 going to be the focus again?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Casardis

[Casardis]

Bump.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

Can I link this thread to my suggestion portal?

[Casardis]

Can I link this thread to my suggestion portal?

 

Of course. I don't think you need permission to link to a public topic like that, but thanks for asking. XD

[Renegade343]

Of course. I don't think you need permission to link to a public topic like that, but thanks for asking. XD

You will be surprised. 

 

Some forums will have forum members raging at you if you link their topic without their permission. 

[Hexagoros]

+1

 

Better Melee = Better Game.

[Casardis]

You will be surprised. 

 

Some forums will have forum members raging at you if you link their topic without their permission. 

 

Oh, I see. Hm I guess I can see where they're getting at.

 

Nevertheless, if in the future you ever want to link whatever topics I've made, feel free to do so.

[Renegade343]

Casardis, 

 

I have a different idea for aerial attacks (inspired from this thread). This is what I wrote down in that thread: 

 

Based from Lego Star Wars 2 Lightsaber attacks, we can have one jump do an aerial attack to attack those pesky drones/cameras/turrets, then have the second jump (after the first) execute a slam attack. No need for double jump mods (of course, the height after doing two jumps must be a bit less than Zephyr's first jump, which could be done through altering Zephyr's first jump to reach higher heights). 

 

That way, players will not be frustrated by flying enemies if the players use melee-only. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Renegade343

[Casardis]

It seems having a second jump as an innate mechanics might be weird. Besides, sometimes executing a slam attack quickly by simply falling off a ledge is a viable strategy that can be done very quickly, which will be invalidated if slam attacks can only be done after doing the second jump.

I still think it sounds more intuitive with the tap and hold for the two attacks.

[Renegade343]

It seems having a second jump as an innate mechanics might be weird. Besides, sometimes executing a slam attack quickly by simply falling off a ledge is a viable strategy that can be done very quickly, which will be invalidated if slam attacks can only be done after doing the second jump.

I still think it sounds more intuitive with the tap and hold for the two attacks.

Tap and hold almost never works in combo fighting games (because almost all of those games are fast-paced, so it is better to have different keys for different attacks/executing different combos as tapping and holding buttons somewhat breaks the flow of those games). 

 

But you do have to jump first in order to execute an aerial attack (i.e. actually press the Jump Button first before pressing the Melee Attack Key to attack flying enemies), so simply falling off a ledge without jumping first would still activate a slam attack. 

 

While writing this, I remembered in one game (probably Skyrim), your character will attack in the direction you are pointing to (e.g.: If you are pointing towards the sky, then the character will attack upwards. Very good for attacking flying enemies in mid-air). We can implement that in Warframe so that if we point upwards, our character will attack upwards (maybe an angle of elevation of π/6 to initiate upwards attacks), with the upward attacks high enough to hit drones/cameras/turrets. With jumping while facing upwards, the character will do another jump and attack (useful for the higher cameras/turrets). 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Renegade343

[Casardis]

It still won't help if one wants to execute a slam attack rapidly after a simple jump though, since it requires another button press first (space bar isn't always the best rapid-tap button in the keyboard). Not only in gameplay, but in control, I feel that having to execute another jump just to do a slam attack (if not falling off) makes it more restricted and actually breaks the flow more, due to the strange conditions you have to make (if you're simply falling, you can't do a simple air attack, and if you're jumping, apparently you can't just slam your sword to the ground unless you do a double jump; that's counter intuitive with the first condition already).

Also, with the way combos work, with certain hold button press, that idea is already in place, and works for most combos. It can easily be done in mid air without feeling encumbered, and will allow better range of maneuver (no matter what kind of jump or fall I know I can choose to do a slam or air attack, without needing to meet strange conditions).

What I mean by range of maneuvers is that it goes both ways: I also want the option to do an air attack while falling down a ledge, if there is a drone under that I'd miss with a slam attack. No need to do a jump, just letting myself slide, and when I'm at the right height, I do an air attack. There's no reason why I should be restricted by a move simply because for some reason, I didn't jump first (unlike flying swallow, which requires momentum, a simple air swipe doesn't).

Edited June 16, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

Also, with the way combos work, with certon hold button press, that idea is already in place, and works for most combos. It can easily be done in mid air without feeling encumbered, and will allow better rangebof maneuver (no matter what kind of jump or fall I know I can choose to do a slam or air attack, without needing to meet strange conditions).

I have experimented with some of my friends (who do play Warframe every now and then) on whether DE's current Melee Combo Button system allows them to execute them more successfully than the button system used in conventional fighting games (different buttons). The results I got was that there is a 15% increase in success rate if the conventional fighting game button system is used to execute Warframe Melee Combos instead of DE's Button system, thus the reason why I would support for conventional fighting game button systems. 

 

I have to admit: Shame we want slam attacks. The suggestion would have worked if there was no slam attack mechanics in the first place. But that does not matter. That means a challenge to try and integrate that with the existing mechanics. Because sometimes, self-imposed challenges are fun. 

[Maou]

I'd love to have arial combo attacks.

others using the *just use your gun* phrase is dumb.

 

The issue here is that melee can't kill/hit flying enemies (well you can but its close to impossible)

I support this topic.

[Casardis]

I have experimented with some of my friends (who do play Warframe every now and then) on whether DE's current Melee Combo Button system allows them to execute them more successfully than the button system used in conventional fighting games (different buttons). The results I got was that there is a 15% increase in success rate if the conventional fighting game button system is used to execute Warframe Melee Combos instead of DE's Button system, thus the reason why I would support for conventional fighting game button systems.

 

Except that conventional fighting games or action beat-em-up games involve either:

- A different button press

- Holding a different button in order to execute the move

 

Your suggestion about the double jump doesn't really fit in any of that, and therefore doesn't fit in your own concept of "conventional fighting game button systems." Ninja Gaiden doesn't do something similar to your idea (it uses a different button instead); DMC doesn't either (needs you to hold R1, on the ps3, and then press the attack button to do the ground slam). Due to those differences, what you suggest isn't intuitive to Warframe at all.

 

That's why, due to the current system in Warframe, I try to introduce something that's already there (tapping VS holding, used with Glaive already when you're not wielding it), and it offers less restriction than what you're saying (no conditions to be met besides the way you tap the button, and no reliance on a different system that will bring other gameplay concerns into play not-related to Melee). It might take some times for people like your friends to get used to it at first, but learning is something that can easily be done, especially when it's nothing cryptic either.

 

The whole coptering is already a cryptic maneuver, but people get used to it and eventually master it. In that sense, your suggestion can fit in there, but you have to take into account that what you suggest limits more possibilities in maneuvers (as I've already explained in my post above).

 

Those things, even when you master the moves, can never be compensated due to the mechanics you're suggesting having limitations (not the double jump, but the attacks that depends on this double jump system). What I suggest won't limit any of that, and after getting used to the tap VS hold (like the Glaive), all the rest can be done.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Casardis

[Naftal]

You used to be able to hit Corrupted Ospreys with jump spin attacks or normal attacks if the animation hits them and they're low enough just like you can with Corpus Ospreys.

 

Some patch like 7-9 months ago broke this and Corrupted Ospreys can only be hit with slam attacks in melee (not the smaller radius damage, only the bigger aoe small damage) so they're essentially unkillable with melee.

 

I reported the bug back then and nothing has been done to fix it...

[Renegade343]

Except that conventional fighting games or action beat-em-up games involve either:

- A different button press

- Holding a different button in order to execute the move

Quick Melee Button replacing Hold and Pause when Melee is equipped. That can help.

 

But then again, since I think we are going to be rather adamant on our stance on whether to use the Hold/Pause mechanism, let us break away from that (as continuing this would kind of be detracting from the topic) and focus on trying to incorporate aerial attacks to the current system. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Renegade343

[Casardis]

But then again, since I think we are going to be rather adamant on our stance on whether to use the Hold/Pause mechanism, let us break away from that (as continuing this would kind of be detracting from the topic) and focus on trying to incorporate aerial attacks to the current system. 

 

It's not detracting from the topic because we're discussing about which one can be incorporated more effectively into Warframe, by comparing with the current systems in Warframe (by the way, I don't like how combos are executed in Warframe for the most part, so that whole system can be checked, but until that's done, aerial attacks need to fit the current system and button press/limitations without bringing new ones).

 

I'm pointing out what I believe are the limitations in yours (limitations in maneuvers due to reliance on conditions; said conditions that contradict each other for slam attacks, etc.), and comparing it to mine according to what you pointed out (learning curve & habit), and so far, what you pointed out are things that can be overcome with experience without having to fight against the game's system, unlike limitations in the system you're suggesting (while opening opportunities, it has limitations that should be avoided).

 

There's nothing off-topic about this. Incorporating Aerial Attacks is a no brainer if you're talking about animations and how they could be done while still working in Warframe. Ninja Gaiden is the best example I can think of with this, but Dragon's Dogma easily comes second (reason why I mention both is because they have minimal air-time, unlike DMC).

 

 

Quick Melee Button replacing Hold and Pause when Melee is equipped. That can help.

 

Except when you're not wielding Melee. Aerial attacks shouldn't be restricted only to when you're wielding the weapon I think, though I could still accept it if that decision is made so that it's an unique aspect of going Sword Alone. The other concern, however, comes from controllers; wouldn't that be too many buttons to assign? Would it be enough?

 

Remember that Quick Melee by default, when melee is equipped, is still Melee attacks, while LMB becomes Channeling. If someone switched Melee when you have it equipped to LMB, logically the Quick Melee button will be assigned to channeling. If we get a new button to do certain "hold" attacks, it might not be too hard for PC players to assign, such as the Reload button when having Melee equipped, but I don't know about controllers. Even then, the first issue of not being able to do air attacks/slam attacks without equipping melee may not be the best idea, even if I personally can get used to it.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

Except when you're not wielding Melee. Aerial attacks shouldn't be restricted only to when you're wielding the weapon I think, though I could still accept it if that decision is made so that it's an unique aspect of going Sword Alone. The other concern, however, comes from controllers; wouldn't that be too many buttons to assign? Would it be enough?

Well, for one thing, most likely than not if you are not holding a melee weapon, then you would be holding a primary and secondary (i.e. ranged weaponry), so having aerial attacks just for when melee is equipped would help to balance this out a little bit. 

 

 

Remember that Quick Melee by default, when melee is equipped, is still Melee attacks, while LMB becomes Channeling. If someone switched Melee when you have it equipped to LMB, logically the Quick Melee button will be assigned to channeling. If we get a new button to do certain "hold" attacks, it might not be too hard for PC players to assign, such as the Reload button when having Melee equipped, but I don't know about controllers. Even then, the first issue of not being able to do air attacks/slam attacks without equipping melee may not be the best idea, even if I personally can get used to it.

Controllers have around 10 or so buttons (on a typical Xbox Controller, there are four buttons at the front [Left and Right bumper, Left and Right Trigger], A, X, B, Y buttons, the four arrow buttons (in the shape of a cross), and the two joysticks that can also act as a button when pushed down, which makes a grand total of 14 buttons on a typical Xbox Controller. And since these buttons are assigned differently when different conditions occur [e.g.: When Melee is equipped, a set of button mappings different to the primary/secondary button mappings would be activated], I think aerial attacks can still work comfortably with controllers). 

[Casardis]

 I think aerial attacks can still work comfortably with controllers). 

 

Hm now that you say this, that's true. I guess it would be best if someone with a controller and playing fully with the controller can comment on this, but from what you said, seems like it would work~

 

Well, for one thing, most likely than not if you are not holding a melee weapon, then you would be holding a primary and secondary (i.e. ranged weaponry), so having aerial attacks just for when melee is equipped would help to balance this out a little bit.

 

Yeah that's true. Quick Melee in the air would work like currently: only slam attacks, since with a ranged weapons, you wouldn't need to do an aerial attack to hit a higher point anyway; you'll just shoot it down.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

Hm now that you say this, that's true. I guess it would be best if someone with a controller and playing fully with the controller can comment on this, but from what you said, seems like it would work~

I have played around with a controller on an Xbox (since I was playing MK9 with a friend of mine), and the buttons are enough for a variety of attacks, so it should be alright for that. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Renegade343

[Casardis]

I have played around with a controller on an Xbox (since I was playing MK9 with a friend of mine), and the buttons are enough for a variety of attacks, so it should be alright for that. 

 

That's not what I meant though. In Warframe you also have powers, crouch, 8-way-run, jump, channel, block, etc.

 

Most of this is assigned as D-pad in a fighting game; that's not the same for Warframe. That's why those differences need to be taken in account, and why, unless you tried with a controller in Warframe to test with all button assigned, we can't really judge that based on a fighting game on a 2D plane.

 

EDIT: My bad I thought you were still talking about MK9, but that wasn't what the mention was for XD.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

That's not what I meant though. In Warframe you also have powers, crouch, 8-way-run, jump, channel, block, etc.

 

Most of this is assigned as D-pad in a fighting game; that's not the same for Warframe. That's why those differences need to be taken in account, and why, unless you tried with a controller in Warframe to test with all button assigned, we can't really judge that based on a fighting game on a 2D plane.

 

EDIT: My bad I thought you were still talking about MK9, but that wasn't what the mention was for XD.

Most likely, the controller set-up for Warframe would be like this: 

 

Bottom joystick: Movement + Sprint if Bottom joystick button is held down. 

Top joystick: Aiming movement + Shoot if Top joystick is held down or Melee Attack if Melee is equipped. 

Left Trigger: ADS

Right Trigger: Reload

Right Button: Jump + Wall-running

Left Button: Quick Melee Button

Arrow buttons: Powers

A, X, Y, B buttons: Channeling (either one) and Crouching (either one). 

 

So, we can add aerial attacks to the left button. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Renegade343