De, You Took What Should Have Been Fun And Just Turned It Into A Grind

[Khunvyel]

I'm chuckling at the arguments made ever since my last entry here.

Who are you to claim such things? Forgotten that many times the Devs speak of their regular and test accounts and how they played with those on a regular basis? Forgotten how hardcore Sheldon is? Forgotten that they are not allowed to move as fast on the live stream because of motion sickness from delayed framerate and from a blurry mess on the screen (Rebecca got notified of that when showing the new dojo stuff)? Forgotten that Scott wasn't playing with his regular keybinds and hardware? He also was not there to kill as much and fast as possible. That was never part of the idea. I'm so used to my Razer Naga & Anansi nowadays, because not only do I play but WORK with the extra keys in Photoshop, Premiere, CuBase and whatnot. Hell, even MS Word. I feel naked and crippled when I sit in front of any regular peripherals.

 

People are complaining about a BUG affecting stance mod drops, and that bug has been fixed. Granted, it beckons the question why these bugs are shipped to begin with, but unless you are working on three different versions (live / upcoming / Dev version) of something, I believe you will understand the concept of difficulty, even if it is just such a small thing. Even if the upcoming build works like a charm, things can still screw up when applied, a phenomena often observed.

A large part of this topic content already became irrelevant. The Argon remains very questionable as it is, yes, and DE gets the Flak for that right now. But the rest? People think that melee 2.0 = stance mods. Well, people got the wrong idea. Melee 2.0 is like a total new game even WITHOUT stance mods. It is almost too ridiculously easy. Feels like every Warframe is Rhino now, with immunity to crowd control and damage on a 180° degree frontal cone. And the mere damage output is unbelievable good to begin with. Melee has now become a real alternative to gunplay (Penta / Launchers aside).

 

And sometimes I think people mistake "Grind" for "I want my stuff now and for free because it is a free game and everything should be free in life and why can't I have it." Sometimes people don't understand that nothing in life is free. You want stuff now? Go pay for it. Free 2 play games are an illusion, they don't exist. Because if you don't spend money, then you spend time. And time is a resource like anything else. Everything has a price.

I think most people don't even know what a real grind is, and Warframe is far from it.

 

DE is also testing stuff and we are their lab rats. If anything, they are testing our patience to tune the content. It is in beta for a reason. Crowd-funded participation beta, but still far from a finished product. Some stuff is still off the scale, though this also affects the good parts. Some things are ridiculously easy to get, but nobody complains about that. Because why would they, right...? Human beings are based on negativity by default, it is in our genes, it is part of our evolution. Yet we have the conscious choice to be above that.

 

I still want to repeat, that the original post was a feedback worth reading, and well written. I wished everybody would put up their thoughts like that, forums would damn well be a nicer place. People just need to look beyond their own nose, is all, and take things in moderation.

 

*gets back to testing 33 melee weapons under the exact same circumstances over and over again*

 

Edit;
 

TL; DR ?

Anyone thinking a mod equivalent to an AURA slot is something to be given away just so? You guys are funny!

Edited April 11, 2014 by Khunvyel

[AdmiralAvalanche]

grind is a powerful and important component to extending game life, but we don't want it to be affiliated with RNG, which is more of a gamble rather than an actual progression, it would be much safer if we at-least had a system where it took long amounts of work, but had certainty in its results and had linear intervals of progression

[ScarletDial]

You can sum this up with a pretty basic conflict of interests:

 

Revamping melee combat to be fun costs company time and money.

People having fun with melee combat does not directly make money. Maybe a little bit if you consider people splurging on new melee weapons, but more likely than not, everyone has a huge stable of swords they never touched before already.

 

Thus you are left with trying to find a way to monetize melee combat.

Warframe uses two forms of monetization. Aesthetics, and grindwalls. Melee combat mechanics aren't something you can use to sell tons of cosmetic items, so you're left with grindwalls. To make money, you revamp melee combat, but only make most of the fun new mechanics accessible if you grind a lot or pay to skip the grind, as with everything else.

 

I'm not angry or disappointed or anything. It's just how it is. I had my hopes set pretty low after the stream revealed that DE scrapped the working prototype they already had after running late, because that meant the new melee 2.0 would be built from the ground up in a very short time frame and still expected to make money. I'm willing to bet this is the exact reason that all of the stance-less "vanilla" animations are the old 6 hit animation cycles broken up into 2 hits for quick melee and 4 hits for the standard combo. All the new animations were stamped into stance mods.

 

So really, DE making a minimum sum approach would involve retooling the vanilla combos to be at least presentable compared to the new stances. Give new players a taste of "melee combat is really cool at higher levels you should keep playing until you get there". A meatier approach would be giving out default stance mods to each melee weapon type, but I doubt we'll see free content being sent our way when the new melee system is still pretty barebones. I'm expecting the former. The "melee combos" option in the menu seems like a placeholder.

 

 

I can speak for myself and all my gaming friends who've played Warframe when I say that the main thing that brings us back to the game is the art and animation. Everything else just bogs down the experience.

 

 

Something of an Amen to this. Nobody actually enjoys killing grineer/corpus in droves because they think they might get an incremental percent marker closer to an item that they want. They enjoy killing grineer/corpus in droves because they look cool, sound cool, die satisfyingly and are fun to be shot at by while prancing around as an epileptic space mime in a gimp suit. Warframe is one of those rare few F2P games where the core presentation is the factor that draws an audience and money oozes out of its pores when massaged just right. The reason CoD/LoL/etc. are successful with their incremental carrot-on-stick methods is because they use those to give the average player a goal and sensation of progress so the gameplay doesn't get stale as fast. DE trying to use it as their primary means of making money feels hamfisted at best. It speaks of overlooking the details of how the competition really pulls it off. In the same way that paying for gamebreaking advantages has gone the way of the dinosaur, attempting to frustrate players into paying to progress without making them quit entirely is nearly extinct in this day and age because it's too difficult of a balance to maintain.

Edited April 11, 2014 by ScarletDial

[LegendOfAB]

I'm chuckling at the arguments made ever since my last entry here.

Who are you to claim such things? Forgotten that many times the Devs speak of their regular and test accounts and how they played with those on a regular basis? Forgotten how hardcore Sheldon is? Forgotten that they are not allowed to move as fast on the live stream because of motion sickness from delayed framerate and from a blurry mess on the screen (Rebecca got notified of that when showing the new dojo stuff)? Forgotten that Scott wasn't playing with his regular keybinds and hardware? He also was not there to kill as much and fast as possible. That was never part of the idea. I'm so used to my Razer Naga & Anansi nowadays, because not only do I play but WORK with the extra keys in Photoshop, Premiere, CuBase and whatnot. Hell, even MS Word. I feel naked and crippled when I sit in front of any regular peripherals.

 

People are complaining about a BUG affecting stance mod drops, and that bug has been fixed. Granted, it beckons the question why these bugs are shipped to begin with, but unless you are working on three different versions (live / upcoming / Dev version) of something, I believe you will understand the concept of difficulty, even if it is just such a small thing. Even if the upcoming build works like a charm, things can still screw up when applied, a phenomena often observed.

A large part of this topic content already became irrelevant. The Argon remains very questionable as it is, yes, and DE gets the Flak for that right now. But the rest? People think that melee 2.0 = stance mods. Well, people got the wrong idea. Melee 2.0 is like a total new game even WITHOUT stance mods. It is almost too ridiculously easy. Feels like every Warframe is Rhino now, with immunity to crowd control and damage on a 180° degree frontal cone. And the mere damage output is unbelievable good to begin with. Melee has now become a real alternative to gunplay (Penta / Launchers aside).

 

And sometimes I think people mistake "Grind" for "I want my stuff now and for free because it is a free game and everything should be free in life and why can't I have it." Sometimes people don't understand that nothing in life is free. You want stuff now? Go pay for it. Free 2 play games are an illusion, they don't exist. Because if you don't spend money, then you spend time. And time is a resource like anything else. Everything has a price.

I think most people don't even know what a real grind is, and Warframe is far from it.

 

DE is also testing stuff and we are their lab rats. If anything, they are testing our patience to tune the content. It is in beta for a reason. Crowd-funded participation beta, but still far from a finished product. Some stuff is still off the scale, though this also affects the good parts. Some things are ridiculously easy to get, but nobody complains about that. Because why would they, right...? Human beings are based on negativity by default, it is in our genes, it is part of our evolution. Yet we have the conscious choice to be above that.

 

I still want to repeat, that the original post was a feedback worth reading, and well written. I wished everybody would put up their thoughts like that, forums would damn well be a nicer place. People just need to look beyond their own nose, is all, and take things in moderation.

 

*gets back to testing 33 melee weapons under the exact same circumstances over and over again*

 

Edit;

 

TL; DR ?

Anyone thinking a mod equivalent to an AURA slot is something to be given away just so? You guys are funny!

 

You seem to be implying that the stance mod and Hydroid situation was actually reasonable. If so...

 

[Mak_Gohae]

While I understand that grinding is, and always will be, a big part of the game, this is just something I don't feel deserved to be behind such a large grind wall.  Melee 2.0 improves almost every aspect of the game.  It does whats most important for a grind based RPG, helps make the grinding actually fun.  Forcing a grind just to improve basic game mechanics seems counter productive, and I think that in this instance in particular it could have been handled much better.

 

 

There's a difference between having stuff like Nightmare Mods and certain Rare mods being hidden behind RNG, and something like Stances being so. Stances are supposed to be an essential part of Melee 2.0 in the same way that Warframe Powers are essential to a Warframe. Hiding something that is supposed to be a big part of a new gameplay mechanic behind the unforgiving RNG grind is just distasteful in my opinion.

 

The only thing the stance mod do is give you two combos, everything else is in game and doesnt require anything else.

Melee mode is in, blocking everything is in, focus mode is in, counters are in, combo multipliers are in. 

I fully explored all of that before getting a stance and i had my fun with that. Sure, some folks want to bust out tapping attack 3 times or five times with a pause in between but the longer combos not being there at the start do not kill the whole thing.

Hek, to actually see the whole combo in play you need to not be in focus mode cause if you are in focus most of the time stuff is just going to die after a couple of hits.

[Zookes]

I'm chuckling at the arguments made ever since my last entry here.

Who are you to claim such things? Forgotten that many times the Devs speak of their regular and test accounts and how they played with those on a regular basis? Forgotten how hardcore Sheldon is? Forgotten that they are not allowed to move as fast on the live stream because of motion sickness from delayed framerate and from a blurry mess on the screen (Rebecca got notified of that when showing the new dojo stuff)? Forgotten that Scott wasn't playing with his regular keybinds and hardware? He also was not there to kill as much and fast as possible. That was never part of the idea. I'm so used to my Razer Naga & Anansi nowadays, because not only do I play but WORK with the extra keys in Photoshop, Premiere, CuBase and whatnot. Hell, even MS Word. I feel naked and crippled when I sit in front of any regular peripherals.

 

It's just Cubase. There's no odd cap in the middle.

 

 

... and that's the only thing worth contending in your post, everything else is just utter nonsense.

[UrielColtan]

Come off it, the melee is slipshod, they just neutered default melee and essentially neutered melee moveset in general if you don't even have a stance, of which are generally rare drops. Adding stagger back in,  something that was a thing before Damage 2.0(And from recollection, was better)., is not exaclty a justification for all the delays. Where the hell did all the actual work go?

Edited April 11, 2014 by UrielColtan

[Khunvyel]

You seem to be implying that the stance mod and Hydroid situation was actually reasonable. If so...

 

Operative word "seem". You seemed to have missed the part where I was saying; "The Argon remains very questionable as it is, yes, and DE gets the Flak for that right now."

 

As with the stance mod, I still stick to my point. You don't need the stance mod for melee 2.0 just like you don't need an Aura for your Warframe. It is a bonus. You get Auras only from Alert missions, and stance mods only as drops, so both are chance based and thus on the same level of acquisition.

Auras are chance based in the fact you might not be readily available when the alert hits for the Aura you actually want. Granted, stance mods are a bit more specific, but you can use the time at hand to get the mod you want. It is exactly like any other rare mod. Some people played the game for months straight and still don't have all the mods they wanted.

Just like with Aura Alerts, you might not get the one you actually wanted to, but at least you can slap it on for some extra points. This isn't exactly the case with Stances, where you need a specific one, but it will again not take that long and we will end up having a ton of all the uncommon stances and eventually get the rare ones. At this point I'd wish they were ALL uncommon, but that is about the ONLY thing I could come up with a complaint about the stance mods.

 

So, to each their own I guess. For you an Aura slot seems to be like a built-in feature of the game. If so, this would be tragic. Remember the time when you got your first Aura? I hope you do.

 

 

It's just Cubase. There's no odd cap in the middle.

I just checked, and you are right, my bad. I don't particularly pay attention to the logo in the loading screen, which has a rather bold font to begin with, so it was just a weird notion of me :D thanks for correcting me.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Warframe uses two forms of monetization. Aesthetics, and grindwalls. Melee combat mechanics aren't something you can use to sell tons of cosmetic items, so you're left with grindwalls. To make money, you revamp melee combat, but only make most of the fun new mechanics accessible if you grind a lot or pay to skip the grind, as with everything else.

I'd buy this argument if DE actually put stance packs on the market. But nobody's going to buy dragon packs for a chance to get stances.

Heck, if De put a stance pack on the market, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.

[mpastor]

I think you guys should try and look at this from their perspective.  They are interested in player retention.  At present, you can fully level a WF in a matter of hours.  I don't know any MMO where you can go from cradle to end game so fast.  And what happens to most people once they get to the end game.  Well, they leave, just like the OP's friend did.

 

They are only trying to get more retention in their game.  Outside of grind, how are they supposed to do it.  They tried making missions more tactically challenging.  The community had a fit.  Notice, you don't see Eurasia and Lua interception missions anymore.

 

What else is there to do?  My guess is, if you have a good idea, they would do it.

Edited April 11, 2014 by mpastor

[And_Now_I_Dance]

I think you guys should try and look at this from their perspective.  They are interested in player retention.  At present, you can fully level a WF in a matter of hours.  I don't know any MMO where you can go from cradle to end game so fast.  And what happens to most people once they get to the end game.  Well, they leave, just like the OP's friend did.

 

They are only trying to get more retention in their game.  Outside of grind, how are they supposed to do it.  They tried making missions more tactically challenging.  The community had a fit.  Notice, you don't see Eurasia and Lua interception missions anymore.

 

What else is there to do?  My guess is, if you have a good idea, they would do it.

 

My friend has barely seen any of Warframes end game.  He just got tired of grinding.  A lot of people get tired with grinding.  Melee 2.0 was an opportunity to make gameplay as a whole more enjoyable, and make the grind more fun, which is another way to retain players.  It still accomplishes this, but you have to grind to actually experience it, which seems counter intuitive.

[LGear]

They are only trying to get more retention in their game.  Outside of grind, how are they supposed to do it.  They tried making missions more tactically challenging.  The community had a fit.  Notice, you don't see Eurasia and Lua interception missions anymore.

 

The issue with Eurasia wasn't that it was hard, but it was incredibly hard for a necessary node on Earth, which is supposed to be friendly to newbies. There's a reason it was called the Eurasia Difficulty Wall: newbies who could even solo the previous nodes suddenly found themselves in a mission where they had to defend against endless waves of Grineer while holding at least 3 different locations simultaneously, and they had to pass through that hell before they can proceed to the farther planets. Fortunately, they fixed that now by making Eurasia an Exterminate Mission, and moving Interceptions to Gaia, which is a side node.

 

The way to maintain player retention is to make a GOOD GAME, with reasonable challenges and fun gameplay. They did succeed in making Melee 2.0 fun on a base level, but having to grind Stance mods to actually unlock all of the features of Melee 2.0 isn't.

 

 

 

Just like with Aura Alerts, you might not get the one you actually wanted to, but at least you can slap it on for some extra points. This isn't exactly the case with Stances, where you need a specific one,

 

 

This is exactly one of the root causes of the problem with Stances. With Aura Mods, even if you get one with the wrong Polarity, you'd still be able to use it on any Warframe, ex. slotting a Corrosive Projection on Rhino. Also, Alerts are semi-regular, so you have an assurance that you can actually get an Aura mod that you can use right now, even if it's the wrong Polarity.

 

Stances on the other hand are incredibly specific for a melee weapon subtype, some of which have only a limited number of uses (Sundering Weave for Machetes, or Tranquil Cleave for Katanas). If you get a rare Tranquil Cleave mod and you only have longswords, you pretty much get a useless mod. It's not even like the division between mods like Rifle, Shotgun, Sniper, Pistol and Melee mods, since at least those have mods under Common rarity, and so even if you don't a Shotgun you're not missing out on much. On the other hand, Stance mods are all locked under at least Uncommon rarity, with at least a dozen being Rare, and with their incredible diversity it really will take a while before you can even find a Stance mod, let alone the one you need. Finally, while Transmutation seems to yield Stance mods at a good rate, having to spend your already limited credits to do so is still what you'd constitute as a Grind, since you need to farm for credits and still have to wish upon luck that you'd get a Stance Mod, let alone a specific one you can even use.

 

Finally, while Melee 2.0 changes lots of things about Melee for the better and is useable without Stance mods, having Stance mods alters the swordplay greatly, even if it's just for the cool new animations. And it is that changed swordplay that DE themselves were hyping up about Melee 2.0, and the reason why many people were stoked for it. Thus, depriving us the opportunity to experience that right off the bat by hiding it behind grind is a distasteful move.

 

If they were going to hide Stance mods behind grinds, at least make a tiered rarity system for it, for example having three Stances per weapon subclass with Common, Uncommon and Rare stances. Hell, they can even make the Common Stances provide only 1 or 2 bonus mod points max just to balance it, as long as we get the promised ability to be able to perform combos and use awesome looking attacks on our melee weapons.

[Khunvyel]

I'm actually curious to see how rare the stance mods really are. and I mean with patch 13.0.3 , not the bugged drop rates before. I mean there are some common mods out there which don't even seem to drop at all, and some rare ones you feel like getting every other corner (not talking about fusion cores here).

 

I have to lean pretty far out with the following two statements but...;

I seem to be of the minority to not view stance mods as mandatory content for Melee 2.0, simply because the cool combos are just that... at least I have been more often than not in a position where using a lengthy combo to the end point would be more detrimental than useful. I'd rather have more moves to execute right off the bat. So it feels like people are crying a river over things which they might not even use in the long run? I don't know. Yet.

 

And the other one being;

While combos are cool and all that, I still feel that slide attack is the top-most superior thing. Grab them Dual Heat Swords, slide attack the living hell out of everything. Damage numbers are insane and you have a lot more mobility than anything else. Sadly, charge attacks are gone, but at least I know in my head that properly executed slide attacks were more efficient in any way than charge attack spam.

And yes, I do cherish a nice looking animation when killing things, the game is playable solo for a reason. But with increasing difficulty, you search for the best and fastest way to kill things. In the case of melee, until I get a hold of stance mods, slide attacks still are by far the hardest hitting thing.

 

Edit; Forgot to mention that in the case of melee weapons, you might be more prone to check out a weapon of the same type of the stance mod you just received, than trying to get a shotgun to fit your mods that stacked up. Though there is the distinct event of people swapping weapon types in the early stages of their game time because they find a damage mod which simply makes their life easier when switching to said weapon. I feel in the case of melee, one would have an easier time switching from "melee to melee" than from "Rifle to shotgun" or feeling forced to use a pistol over a rifle because of getting hornet strike prior to Serration or getting barrel diffusion before split chamber.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Khunvyel

[Deimion]

I personally like the idea of stances and melee 2.0 does make sense even though it's a tad unweildly. I'm not quite into melee so I can't really comment on that.

 

my concern falls more under trying to get the full set of Hyrdroid parts

 

this may be a little skewed since I started grinding when the beacon drops first started and before hotfixes, but the drop rate for Delta beacons, the rarest of the beacons to get to Vay Hek, are approximately a 3%, going by the total of all of my collected beacons (give or take 1 run's worth 2D,4G,8K,12O).

 

Seeing as RNG already screws most people over as far as the actual drop of frame parts, it's kind of ridiculous setting a resource for just the key to the boss battle at such a low probability.

 

just sayin'

Edited April 12, 2014 by Deimion

[raikien]

I gotta be honest I like the stances as mods and not part of the weapons because some of these combos are simply freakin aweful even if the weapon it'self is amazing. Making into grindable mods gives the option for many many new sets of animations for existing weapons rather than them releasing another weapon that's wtf expensive in resources or research only.

 

Honestly without the grind whats the point of the game at all?

[mpastor]

......

The issue with Eurasia wasn't that it was hard, but it was incredibly hard for a necessary node on Earth, which is supposed to be friendly to newbies. There's a reason it was called the Eurasia Difficulty Wall: newbies who could even solo the previous nodes suddenly found themselves in a mission where they had to defend against endless waves of Grineer while holding at least 3 different locations simultaneously, and they had to pass through that hell before they can proceed to the farther planets. Fortunately, they fixed that now by making Eurasia an Exterminate Mission, and moving Interceptions to Gaia, which is a side node.

 

The way to maintain player retention is to make a GOOD GAME, with reasonable challenges and fun gameplay. They did succeed in making Melee 2.0 fun on a base level, but having to grind Stance mods to actually unlock all of the features of Melee 2.0 isn't.

......

 

 

 

With all do respect you are not putting enough thought into the issue or you are incredibly naive.  Let's look at player retention.  You mention all that is needed is a good game.  Well have you ever bought a computer game that you feel was good?  The answer, I guess, is yes... certainly.  Now, how many times did you play that game?  If it was good maybe a couple of times.  If it was great maybe a couple times... put it away.. come back and play a couple more.  Great, that's what happens when you make a great game.  

 

Now if you make a mission or set of mission great in the warframe MMO the same thing can happen.  Let's say you get people to like it so well they come back twenty five times to play it.  Well, I have news for you... this is not anywhere near enough.  They need a mechanic that keeps you playing, or wanting to play, every day, 365 days a year for multiple years. The problem is orders of magnitude more difficult than the video game logic you are imagining.  Now, grind is not the only tool they have to call upon, but it is a common one in MMO play.  And regardless of whether you like it or not, it does work.

 

First off, Eurasia and Lua were not that hard.  Played foolishly like you suggest above they could become incredibly difficult.  However, that was not necessary.  I will not argue this point with you though (please refer to my past help posts on interception play and Lua for a more clear understanding).  However, you take issue that those missions (essentially the first missions that required a tactically complex approach to play)  were placed on necessary nodes.  No kidding they put them on necessary nodes.  They would not act to slow players otherwise.  If you can slow players with tactically complex missions, then you can reduce the grind.  

 

It is a real shame these missions disappeared.  Mainly due to a vocal minority of unsophisticated players.  What do we have now ... we have one dimensional mini-bosses who are a challenge because they are immune to all (almost) damage but one type, and long grinds.   If you are pointing fingers of blame... maybe look to the player base first.

Edited April 12, 2014 by mpastor

[-X.T.X-Squallpka1]

I hate to say this, but I don't think the vision for this game will be anything other than grinding. I've had some harsh thoughts in my head as well as expressed here and other places about DE and the direction of the game. I don't want this post to be like that, though. Having played melee tonight, it was kind of fun. The new tiles are alright. I bought the update pack because I had extra plat enough to do it and I wanted Hydro.

 

That being said:

 

What is this game other than grind? There is no real plot, meaningful interaction between players besides what their frames can do (like I can shoot a thing trapped by vauban or zap it with volt) but there is no real combo working (think Guild Wars 2, interactive combos that reward teamwork. If you're not familiar with that, check it out. It at least adds some thought and strategy.) There is only a system of leveling and re-leveling weapons, items, frames, mods, etc. There is no variation. There is no depth. There is no character to this game beyond the really cool art style. There is a nascent plot, intriguing factions that could be explored; an interesting setting, to be sure. But it's all just thrown away for more of the same: more new weapons, more new places to run 5/5 missions for that orokin cell, more new convoluted systems to get very little in return. The new frame is really cool, but M Prime still clears a room. If you have that, the only thing you're working toward is aesthetic differences and minor playstyle differences.

 

This is a downfall of their pricing and content model. The game is free to play, so massive amounts of people can theoretically play. This puts DE in a lurch to serve up content that is satisfying, or to have any real obligations. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Don't pay for instant gratification. Problem with the grind? You can't complain, it's free! The pricing model, content model, tries to have things both ways: freedom from obligations and creativity because they are "nice" for letting you play a "free" game. But it's not free. You pay with your time. They can't live off of your time, they can't eat dinner off of your time. So they have to put things behind the wall of a grind, or else nobody would pay anything for the game. There need to be incentives to pay money. While people argue over what pay to win is, which is a childish, inane argument, they sneak in more of what is essentially the same. Just more, not better, not different, just the same. There have been small evolutions, such as the change to infested, invasions, etc. But what about changes the baseline model of the game? Run more missions, get more supplies, build more gear.

 

What I'm saying is this game is more of a showcase for a game engine and an economic experiment with an expanded Skinner box than it is a game. It's fun mindlessly blowing things up, but that is the extent of the game.

 

I would prefer not having the free to play model in exchange for buying a game with content, or paying a subscription fee for better-implemented content. Weekly events would be super neat. Weekly cosmetic items would be nice. New mission types, revamps of useless abilities, Quality Assurance testing, research and development of possible game plans, open worlds, item balancing, plot arcs, guild territory, expansions of map sizes to zones rather than small individual maps, some kind of interactivity between frame abilities to create combos, revamps of the flawed mod system in which 80% of mods serve no purpose because they are not the best of the selection, and myriad other improvements would be nice. I don't know that DE could afford or manage this with their current vision for the game. 

 

It's easier to churn out "kill x thing, collect y part, combine it with 3 other tenno to fight z instance" types of events than it is to try to shift a paradigm into a more evolved state.

 

I doubt DE would read this, and I doubt further that they even have a concern for most of these things. As long as the cash shop is turning a profit, there is no real incentive to improve; they can continue to provide more of the same.

 

I've spent too much money on this game so far. I can't reward more of the same. I got enough of what there is now for what I've paid. I will continue to play and try to collect some stuff, do the new fight, check out more stances, upgrade my mods. But what is there to do after all of that? Where is the longevity in this game? I think I could invest more money if there are better business practices, but until then, I have a somewhat sour taste in my mouth.

 

Just found this thread and I have to agree that this post got same opinion that I have. Take out the grinding, what left for Warframe...

 

I speak based on my own experience. After I got all weapons and warframes. Selling those extra mods and parts. After that's what left for me to play Warframe. None I think other than farming plat in trading tab and waiting for next update. Like what they do with new proto skin for Excalibur. Lucky I had plat that time.

 

You dont like the grind? No worries. There are many player willing to do for you in exchange of plat. Patient and play more, you can have it free. If not, go buy plat. There is no such free thing in this world. Beside we always get something when grinding that worth to trade it for plat dont they?

 

However, I do feel frustation when grinding like hell and still don't get the thing I want. Which mean for me its time to just be casual player. Just play with whatever I have in hand and have fun with it. I do love Warframe and I play it everyday.

 

I never encounter player that invite me to play in squad without wanting the reward. Like Nekros, ODA mission. After I got the Nekros, do you think I will do that mission again? No can do. Never! Even the DE change RNG in that mission to make it good, I still wont do it.

 

Thats why I think what DE do with RNG quite understanding. Grinding is not fun, yes but its essential. I dont want to see one hour after update we can see ppl post walkthrough or such in youtube. Make the DE day and night works can be use for just one hour or so without DE profit from it. Please, we cant see new warframe without we, as player support DE, hard truth in that.

 

I hate to see ppl left Warframe because of grinding. But I more hate to see ppl left Warframe because its got nothing to do. How long do you think we can play warframe without grinding.

 

Free to play if you really patient, if not.. just pay... Don't have plat? Go look for your inventory, there is gold in there. Nothing to trade to? Just be casual player, play with what you got. That thing you seek will be found eventually.

 

---

 

Enough for the compliment for DE. I'm not stupid and I know if there is something wrong. Wtf you put grinding in grinding in grinding to get Hydroid? Why not making its easier like you do with other warframe like Nova or other where we can just fight the boss and get the reward. Eventhough that also not easy to get. Well known, system for warframe is hardest part to find for warframe. Why just do that for Hydroid.

 

I can forgive if that Hydroid is as good as Nekros. When I got Nekros, I said to myself... its worth it. He have Desecrate and ppl dying for good Nekros to go to Survival. What about Vauban. I dont have problem if Hydroid is as good as Vauban if I have to wait only God know when the alert is. But sorry, no for Hydroid. Hydroid is cool warframe but when comparing with the effort to get it. Not worth it. For me, Hydroid is just Ember, good for early game but I cant imagine how he can perform in T3 Survival after 40 min. Spamming Undertow?

 

I dont have complaint if Hydroid is same as Ember in term of farming for it BP part.

 

--

 

Well, sorry for long post. Grinding is not fun, but essential. I dont mind grinding, but please DE, make it worth it. If the stance for Melee is good, I dont mind grinding at all. Heck, I even spend the rest of my day trading mods for plat to get that stance mods if grinding seem impossible. There is always a way to get thing.

 

But as for effort to get Hydroid, its ridiculous. Can we trade Hydroid? No. Super ridiculous. I hope in future this kind of "grinding in grinding in grinding" will never happen again. Unless, that item is "really really really" worth it. If Hydroid this hard to find, I dont know how DE will make we do when Hydroid Prime on sight.

 

And that my fellow Tenno, its Nightmare 2.0... Thanks for reading btw...

Edited April 12, 2014 by Squallpka1

[ScarletDial]

Come off it, the melee is slipshod, they just neutered default melee and essentially neutered melee moveset in general if you don't even have a stance, of which are generally rare drops. Adding stagger back in,  something that was a thing before Damage 2.0(And from recollection, was better)., is not exaclty a justification for all the delays. Where the hell did all the actual work go?

 

Scrapped. The previous version of melee 2.0 was cut completely because it "felt more like Devil May Cry".

[Ganpot]

Scrapped. The previous version of melee 2.0 was cut completely because it "felt more like Devil May Cry".

 

Which, ironically, would have been 10 times better than what we currently have.  Even with a stance, there are only 2-3 combos you can pull off during any one match.  You know what no one has ever said?  "Yeah, I love spectacle fighters and actions games.  But there's just so much move variety.  You know what would be awesome?  Being forced to play Devil May Cry for hundreds of hours while performing the same basic combo over and over again.  That would make things so much more fun!" 

[AdmiralAvalanche]

Which, ironically, would have been 10 times better than what we currently have.  Even with a stance, there are only 2-3 combos you can pull off during any one match.  You know what no one has ever said?  "Yeah, I love spectacle fighters and actions games.  But there's just so much move variety.  You know what would be awesome?  Being forced to play Devil May Cry for hundreds of hours while performing the same basic combo over and over again.  That would make things so much more fun!" 

actually with reaping spiral stance their is only ONE combo, and i was disappointed that all other moves where just wall attacks, ground slams, and slide spins with exactly the same animations but with new names

[Ganpot]

actually with reaping spiral stance their is only ONE combo, and i was disappointed that all other moves where just wall attacks, ground slams, and slide spins with exactly the same animations but with new names

 

One combo?  That is just.... Ugh.  Who actually thought stuff like this was a good idea?! 

[Keltik0ne]

I was surprised when melee 2.0 turned out to be a quick time event.

 

The grind added to obtain stances ? No surprise at all.

[AdmiralAvalanche]

got pics 

 

 

 

 

oop, sorry to go of in a tangent like than

Edited April 12, 2014 by AdmiralAvalanche

[Ganpot]

got pics 

 

That's actually better than I was expecting.  I was taking the normal button-mashing combo into account when I said 2-3 combos per stance.  So basically, Reaping Spiral is just like every other stance mod.  That's... still really depressing, actually.  

[Stefanovich]

124 rare mods transmutated and 2.5 million credits in the hole, and I have 3 rare stance mods to show for it. 2 Flailing Branch, 1 Crossing Snakes.

"What's that? You wanted Gleaming Talon? Have fun grinding LEECH OSPREYS! MUHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!"

DE pls