Let Me Explain Exactly Why Melee 2.0 Is Broken.

[Dawntess]

And yes, broken is the right word. Why? Because it breaks melee combat as a fluid gameplay mechanic.

 

Before melee 2.0, melee combat was a complement to gunplay. You could combine them as you chose to. But now, melee combat is only viable as a standalone. It was already somewhat outclassed by guns, and melee 2.0 nerfed normal melee combat extremely hard. First off, Fury was nerfed into the ground. Melee swings are now much slower. That means you kill slower and put yourself in a vulnerable position longer. Second, charge attacks were removed. Weapons that relied on them are useless. They were replaced by channeling. Unfortunately, channeling can't be used without holding your melee weapon alone, which takes quite some time in the middle of a hectic fight. Switching to your melee weapon, swinging (which is now slower) and then switching back to your gun takes what seems like an enternity when you're being shot at by at least five different enemies. Third, standard combos are now shorter and more repetitive if you aren't holding the weapon alone.

 

In other words, melee combat was made completely pointless if you aren't going with "the sword alone". That's not an improvement. It used to be gun AND sword. Now it's gun OR sword. We're progressing backwards.

 

 

Also, stances. This isn't directly related to the main point of the thread, but it needs to be repeated. The fanbase shouldn't just accept it when DE lie to us and lock away the biggest thing they've hyped up behind an absolutely absurd amount of grinding. And thankfully people have been making it clear that this is just not acceptable, though DE aren't showing any signs of listening.

 

 

I dont think youve played this update

 

I don't even think he's playing the right game.

[Ronyn]

And yes, broken is the right word. Why? Because it breaks melee combat as a fluid gameplay mechanic.

 

Before melee 2.0, melee combat was a complement to gunplay. You could combine them as you chose to. But now, melee combat is only viable as a standalone. It was already somewhat outclassed by guns, and melee 2.0 nerfed normal melee combat extremely hard. 

Wait, just so I am clear, how much weaker is quick melee supposed to be now? You say it's nerfed. How much so?

Because obviously we don't have the charge attacks, but other than that what is it we have lost?

[Ronyn]

They said all melee weapons would come with a stance by default. It was in the devstream in which they showed off Hydroid gameplay.

 

Now stop acting like developers need to be protected from rightful criticism. They are not your friends. You shouldn't feel a need to defend them from the big, bad people-who-actually-criticize.

 

By the way, if you're going to start playing the devil's advocate and twisting meanings about how WELL TECHNICALLY YOU CAN CONSIDER THE LACK OF A STANCE TO BE A STANCE etc. you seriously need to rethink what you're doing.

In the stream they explain that the "default stance" isn't actually a stance.

That they don't even really call it a stance etc..seriously watch that part again.

They specifically state that without a stance mod you cannot do combos.

The last stream was pretty clear on this aspect.

[SoulEchelon]

Wait, just so I am clear, how much weaker is quick melee supposed to be now? You say it's nerfed. How much so?

Because obviously we don't have the charge attacks, but other than that what is it we have lost?

 

We haven't lost anything. Infact quick melee is stronger than before. All melee weapons were buffed damage-wise. Hell I was quick melee'ing level 20+ enemies on Ceres with my crappy low level Lecta yesterday in 2, 3 hits.

 

The absolute only thing that's missing with quick melee is the charge attack, which isn't needed any longer. You can still do literally every other type of attack. Slide, jump, wall, etc. Infact, the slide attack (a.k.a, coptering) has been buffed in many weapons - both damage wise and length of flight-wise.

[scnoobi]

melee is just worse than before. no awesome charge attacks. some silly channeling which only works when you have equipped your sword and hold left mouse button and then every hit takes away mana(yay no more mana).

 

seismic palm stance is just useless and slows you down way to much.

[TargetDummy]

My biggest complain is about glaive. Potatoed and formaed Prime Glavie and started to use it as my main melee... that was in "melee 1.0". Now it is crap: very slow, insignificant damage, no more fast charge.

[Ronyn]

We haven't lost anything. Infact quick melee is stronger than before. All melee weapons were buffed damage-wise. Hell I was quick melee'ing level 20+ enemies on Ceres with my crappy low level Lecta yesterday in 2, 3 hits.

 

The absolute only thing that's missing with quick melee is the charge attack, which isn't needed any longer. You can still do literally every other type of attack. Slide, jump, wall, etc. Infact, the slide attack (a.k.a, coptering) has been buffed in many weapons - both damage wise and length of flight-wise.

Yeah I just ran some stuff on Pluto using nothing but quick melee with my dakra prime...

Stuff dies faster now than before. OP is confused about it being nerfed.

 

Next Ill run Galatine and see how it is doing without its charge attack.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

First off, Fury was nerfed into the ground. Melee swings are now much slower.

Actually, they seem to have changed the entire speed scale. 1.0 is insanely fast. Like, 1.0 is how fast zorens with fury were in the old system. (My single ether sword can copter as well as zorencopters used to, also.) Even 0.8 speed weapons like the dark sword are pretty fast now, and that's before the extra boost from fury.

That means you kill slower and put yourself in a vulnerable position longer. Second, charge attacks were removed. Weapons that relied on them are useless.

Ehhhhh, not so much. Galatine is still crazy powerful.

[Frostmire]

I don't have much complaint about Melee 2.0 , but :

 

- Melee combos should be easier to execute and there should be more reasons to use them instead of endless "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

- Heavy weapons take a very big hit in melee 2.0

- Stances are mods ( well DE has always hid new features behind the Great Wall of Grind so .... whatever )

 

Other than those problems , melee 2.0 is pretty cool imo , it makes more warframes viable ( I'm loving Saryn and Volt right now )

[MrMacaroli]

Also, stances. This isn't directly related to the main point of the thread, but it needs to be repeated. The fanbase shouldn't just accept it when DE lie to us and lock away the biggest thing they've hyped up behind an absolutely absurd amount of grinding. And thankfully people have been making it clear that this is just not acceptable, though DE aren't showing any signs of listening.

 

This came out after you've posted, but they ARE listening to feedback: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/211820-april-11th-community-hot-topics/

 

Stance Mods

 

Moving forward, our team is currently examining the Codex to ensure stance mod drops are being shown correctly and reading feedback. The issue of mod drop dilution is still a hot issue from which we’re listening to. Would putting stance mods in the market alleviate some major concerns? Further investigating will be done. 

 

 

Keep with being critical and pointing out what you believe to be flaws in the system-- we're here to give feedback and to test. But attacking DE over US (players) MISINTERPRETING and then saying they're NOT listening to feedback when they're trying is not going to get us anywhere good. They did not lie, and our feedback has alerted them of the grindwall enough that they're looking for a change.

 

Patience and positivity. We're all in this game's development together.

Edited April 11, 2014 by MrMacaroli

[Sheetaki]

melee is just worse than before. no awesome charge attacks. some silly channeling which only works when you have equipped your sword and hold left mouse button and then every hit takes away mana(yay no more mana).

 

seismic palm stance is just useless and slows you down way to much.

seismic palm with max fury is fantastic. the delay from the first punch to second punch is greatly reduced and the rest of the combos are pretty fast and do a lot of hits to build up the combo count. one thing i did notice about it though is that the combo uses the same animation as the parrying attack though

[Dalu__Ka]

OP, you do not understand the meaning of broken, and you have only explained why you personally don't like the melee system.

[mpastor]

I saw an increase in speed and performance of my melee weapon and an increase in damage.  I don't miss charge, especially with the higher damage.  It just slowed me down anyway.  Melee for me is very secondary to gun combat.  It was before the mod, it is now, however, it  is incrementally better.  And I do use it a little bit more because of that.

 

Having said that, I must agree with the OP.  Do you know how much damage I can do with Dex pistols in the amount of time it takes someone to press a button three times?  And those are just my pistols.  Honestly, if you expected more out of melee you are pretty naive.  

 

1. Melee can't deal with ranged foes like gun play with almost instant target switching at range.

2. 

3. Melee can't kill as fast as gun play.

4. Gun play is safer.

 

All of the above things would need to be addressed before melee could expect to compete with gun play as a viable option.  Only nerfing guns, and nerfing them heavily would come close to achieving this.  Even if that was done, melee currently in this game suffers wrt to gun use in another major way.

 

1.  Melee is not really simulated.  Gun play in this game is a simulation of real gun play.  There is more to it than pointing and shooting.  There is targeting (i.e. head shots) and tactical sense (i.e. using cover, strafe firing and moving).  In other words, gun play is more intellectually stimulating.  Melee on the other hand is not simulated,  Instead the current system of melee is analogous to a trained monkey feeder.  That is... a monkey is trained to press a button repeatedly a bunch of times and then he gets his reward.  

 

This type of system will ultimately bore any human with average or higher intellect.  It may be fun today... but it will become really dull for most in the future.  So the second thing melee needs to be viable is an interesting mechanic.  I would suggest a mechanic based on real melee weapon combat.  However, there is a catch-22 here.  Any system that realistically models melee and is enjoyable to perform will slow down the pace of this game.

 

So, unless you break the gun side of the game, melee will never be as viable.  And, unless you are will to deal with a slower game pace, melee will never be as intellectually stimulating.

 

It's too bad they decided to spend their programming resources on something that in the end really does not change things much.  

[Mehbah]

i want a devstream and time in the video

 

 

36:00

 

"So you've got your [stance] slot and every weapon comes with a default stance"

 

A lack of a stance is not a stance. Calling it a stance is just misleading when it doesn't behave like one of the stances they've been hyping up so much.

 

 

Actually, they seem to have changed the entire speed scale. 1.0 is insanely fast. Like, 1.0 is how fast zorens with fury were in the old system. (My single ether sword can copter as well as zorencopters used to, also.) Even 0.8 speed weapons like the dark sword are pretty fast now, and that's before the extra boost from fury.

 

All the weapons I had tried were slower or otherwise terrible (Glaive). I've since tried the dual Zoren, and they seem just as fast, if not faster. So while this means that some weapons are indeed not slower, it also means they nerfed the hell out of other weapons even more by making them slower. Particularly the heavy weapons, which are already at a big disadvantage since melee 2.0 favors fast weapons. So they didn't just nerf heavy weapons, they nerfed almost every single aspect of them. At least out of the ones I've tried.

 

Ehhhhh, not so much. Galatine is still crazy powerful.

 

It isn't. Seriously, let's not pretend it is. It's absolutely terrible now. It's slower. It's weaker. It can't make proper use of the combo system. It's trash now.

 

Incidentally, I saw someone elsewhere on the forum argue that making the Galatine useless is fine because it only requries mastery rank 3. It's not. Any catalysts or formas people have used on weapons that got pounded into the ground with melee 2.0 are now wasted. Furthermore, that higher mastery rank weapons should be more powerful than lower ones is not a rule the rest of the game adheres to, nor should it. Some weapons have a high mastery rank requirement, but it's far from a solid rule, and it's very poor game design. Cool and unique weapons shouldn't be made useless, especially not when the game is already drowning in fast-hitting weapons and dual swords. The mastery thing is no excuse, because I know they have given weapons higher mastery requirements in the past instead of nerfing them. Also, dual Zorens have an even lower mastery requirement.

 

It's the one single massive claymore in a sea of dual and single swords. It should be viable.

 

This came out after you've posted, but they ARE listening to feedback: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/211820-april-11th-community-hot-topics/

 

Stance Mods

 

Moving forward, our team is currently examining the Codex to ensure stance mod drops are being shown correctly and reading feedback. The issue of mod drop dilution is still a hot issue from which we’re listening to. Would putting stance mods in the market alleviate some major concerns? Further investigating will be done. 

 

 

Keep with being critical and pointing out what you believe to be flaws in the system-- we're here to give feedback and to test. But attacking DE over US (players) MISINTERPRETING and then saying they're NOT listening to feedback when they're trying is not going to get us anywhere good. They did not lie, and our feedback has alerted them of the grindwall enough that they're looking for a change.

 

Patience and positivity. We're all in this game's development together.

 

They claim to be listening, but they aren't. Any idiot would have seen that it isn't even remotely acceptable to hide stance mods behind one of the biggest grind walls in the game. For example, there are stance mods that can only be dropped by Bombards. Bombards are rare. These drops are also rare drops, from a large list of possible drops. For comparison, it took me almost three hundred hours to get my first Sanctuary, dropped by a Bombard.

 

They knew what they were doing. According to numerous sources on the forum, they've claimed that they're going to reduce the grind in the game in the past. Despite that, they added massive grind walls to everything. Stance mods, the Big Thing of melee 2.0, are borderline impossible to get. I went looking for the heavy sword stance mod that Moas are supposed to have as an uncommon drop. I grinded for several hours, as a Nekros using nothing but Desecrate. Didn't get it, of course. Getting to Hek takes insane grinding (while using mod setups that go directly against everything you know about modding), and then you need to get lucky enough to actually get the Hydroid pieces if you want him. It's not going to take three runs, based on every other boss that drops warframe parts. They added a resource that is literally useless unless used within hours of being collected. They added the Lex Prime, which would be nice if it didn't further dilute the already diluted Void drop tables. The new katana uses even more Oxium, after we grinded enough to research and build Zephyr. And these are things people were already complaining about. It's not stuff that could have escaped their attention. We've gone four hotfixes and they haven't done a thing about the stance drops. Frankly, the only reason they're (claiming) to be listening is that people are finally fed up with this bullS#&$. People are going to start leaving the game because it's simply nothing but a grind where the reward isn't even a guarantee in the end. I know I'm out very soon if they don't fix this. I've made the mistake of giving them money; I'm not going to keep throwing more and more at them in order to not have to spend hundred of hours grinding for a reward which might not even come.

[Inez]

That is what I am saying. That, and that quick melee is now terrible.

I don't think you've played this update either.

[blackflashcannon]

 

36:00

 

"So you've got your [stance] slot and every weapon comes with a default stance"

 

A lack of a stance is not a stance. Calling it a stance is just misleading when it doesn't behave like one of the stances they've been hyping up so much.

 

then what would you call it? a move? hacking and slashing?

 

do you know what the word "default" means?

 

post from hot topics 4/11

 

Stance Mods

In Devstream #26 it was stated that “Every weapon comes with a default basic stance that doesn't include the combos.”. This caused some confusion due to the information being unclear. A ‘default basic stance’ is simply your Warframes stance without a stance mod equipped (Hitting EEE..). The Stance mod is what gives you that combo system to play around with. We can see where the confusion was made, and we apologize for that. It was also stated that “The Stance is created as Mods cards that you will find in the game as drops.”

 

you claim they dont listen. here is your counter argument

Edited April 12, 2014 by blackflashcannon

[DarkBabylon]

Melee 2.0 is broken...? I see many posts in here and good grief are there many complaints on such small things.

First of all the arcs can be taken down by melee, they are low enough. Door traps sure you need to pull your gun but that is not the point of melee 2.0.

 

The whole point was to deliver an alternative to absolutely wreck and shred them enemies to pieces. Tell you what? I actually find it particularly hard to go with a melee only regardless. If you haven't noticed by now: games which follow many damage types tend to balance them out, in the sense that one is effective over the other in only CERTAIN situations.

 

It isn't hard to press or hold the F key to take out or holster your melee either, not to mention that the fact you can still quick melee enemies, which by the way STILL FEATURES THE JUMP ATTACK WITH. You are just limited with the melee in gun play, you won't have a buff of damage or DPS thanks to the combos. You know what's more:

NO ONE FORCED YOU TO GO WITH MELEE EXCLUSIVELY. It is an option, and in fact in some situations more ideal.

Not to mention the fact beyond gameplay the Tenno are supposed to be masters of both.

 

I also have to say that becuase of how the combos work, melee hasn't been nerfed at all, it was buffed, in fact possibly even out-damages gunplay in infestation.

[Kyphe]

then what would you call it? a move? hacking and slashing?

 

do you know what the word "default" means?

 

post from hot topics 4/11

 

 

you claim they dont listen. here is your counter argument

I would say as they claimed a stance provides your set of combos and the default has non it can not be called a stance it is an absence of one. A true default stance should have some basic combo moves.

[Keltik0ne]

Well, I found melee 2.0 to be a bit lacklustre, but I don't begrudge people who enjoy it.

 

I've just never been a fan of quick time event based gameplay.

[Davoodoo]

I expected melee 2.0 to be terrible but this is still dissapointing.

 

1) nerf to attack speed mods is great hit for melee indeed, best weapons atm(note: havent yet tested dragon nikana) are imo ichors and zorens due to how fast they can stack berserker to reach normal attack speed.

2) using combos is counterproductive, its better to get fast melee weapon and mash e since enemies die too fast for combos to be any use, not to mention that they do same dmg but special moves are slower than regular swings

3) guns are still much better, difference is between using 1 bullet or 1 swing but bullets still fly faster.

4) stances farm is grind and luck, nothing else, i dont feel like im getting better at using my weapon to the point where i can perform special moves, i just go to phobos, murder 40k butchers, desecrate them all, and hope that stance i want will drop with 0.00000000000001% chance, not fun.

5) stances except of tranquil cleave, add 1 maybe 2 combos, cmon really?? i would understand if they add 5 or 10.

6) whole melee revolves around getting nikana, dragon nikana got best stats out of melee weapons and only nikanas get stance which have 3 extra combos. So basically get katana or be inferior.

7) community proposed few times to increase weapon change speed but de refuses to do anything about it and instead clings on bandaid fix which is speed holster aura.

8) some of content meant to be in melee 2.0 and being showed in devstream isnt in game, like for example additional attack after jump attack.

9) combat is everything but intuitive, you need to look at animations to see how long you should pause or when to hold button instead of pressing. In theory where you can test moves without any enemies its ok, but when 40 lancers shoot you and you can barely see anything in that chaos performing combos is near impossible unless you always have same attack speed(no berserker or quickening) and practiced to get perfect timing.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Mak_Gohae]

 

36:00

 

"So you've got your [stance] slot and every weapon comes with a default stance"

 

A lack of a stance is not a stance. Calling it a stance is just misleading when it doesn't behave like one of the stances they've been hyping up so much.

 

 

They clearly explained this at the start of the discussion.

where they explain the "default stance " doesnt come with combos and then steve says they just call it stance internally but it's not, it just the weapon.

 

I dont know why there any discussion on this, they were very clear.

[blackflashcannon]

I would say as they claimed a stance provides your set of combos and the default has non it can not be called a stance it is an absence of one. A true default stance should have some basic combo moves.

E,E,E

 

end of thread

[PixalatedVortex]

well yea now whenever your NEED to shoot something and u r carrying your melee weapon i becomes kinda of a chore, like those annoying door sensors and arc traps, actually anything that is not in reach of melee, and stances... nice on paper, nice on youtube, i doubt anyone will be thinking... now ill' use this combo to kill that bombard... those combos work in games like Dynasty Warriors, and although warframe has some similarities it's not the same kind of gameplay.

lol you dont make sense i use combos on everything that doesnt get one shotted 

[Loviam]

You say that attack are slower and that fury has been nerfed, I begged a differ. I use Dual zorens as my main melee weapon. if you're having that much of an issue with attack speeds. chuck a Beserker and a True steel on that little rat bastard. then try telling people that you attack slower. So what if charge has been removed. that has buffed every other weapon. you use to use just slow clunky charge weapons but now you can blast around and not be at a low level with just about anything. I by far enjoy channeling over charge.

[CosyPigeon]

OP has a point, Tenno are supposed to be warriors of sword and Gun, and whilst overall I like aspects of melee 2.0 that allow you to pull out and equip your melee weapon, and go into missions with sword alone, it is kind of a shame that you can't do channeling on your quick melee attack  (which with some well thought out control schemes, should be possible really).

It's also a bit sad that these lighting fast ninja badasses take an eternity to draw and holster weapons. A tenno should be able to draw and fire a weapon faster than Bob Munden 

But currently my grandma can draw a weapon faster than they do.