8+4 : Give Frames 2 More Mod Slots

[Varzy]

With Melee 2.0 here, new builds are becoming viable, so I feel this is a good time as any to bring up this argument again.

 

Currently, there's a glaring inconsistency with the mod system. Each weapon has 8 mod slots. Frames have 10, but since abilities take up 4 slots (which are polarized accordingly) there is effectively only 6 slots to use. Why are there fewer options for customization in what should be the most vital component of our gameplay?

 

I propose adding two mod slots to frames, whilst keeping the mod capacity the same (60 + aura).

 

The argument against this is usually "It's balanced because you have to choose between having utility/enhancements and having abilities", but the idea that to reach a comfortable strength you have to short-change your gameplay is ridiculous.

 

Giving us 2 extra mod slots on our frames will not imbalance the decisions we have to make when modding. The benefits of an aura are generally canceled out by the mod costs of abilities, meaning there's roughly 60 capacity remaining to accommodate 8 mods -- the same as primary and secondary weapons. To use all 8 slots, an upwards of 4 forma will need to be used -- it needs work to get the most out of, and a player with many expensive mods in their build would have less use of the space than someone who simply needs to tweak performance.

 

Fundamentally, I want to try out builds with Reflex Guard, or Sure Footing, or stamina mods without totally shooting my defenses or abilities in the foot. I want to use all four of my frame's abilities in missions instead of skimping out on one or two of them so that I can survive or get a bit of utility. Every build I take that's not a cookie-cutter "Redirection/Vitality+Ability enhancers" feels fun, but too weak to satisfy me in-game for very long.

 

Give frames 2 extra mod slots so players a chance to really customize and make powerful builds that suit their gameplay by giving them the last bit of breathing space they need.

 

SUGGESTIONS AND FEEDBACK

- Separate Abilities from regular mods. Give Abilities 4 exclusive slots, like Aura mods, and leave 8 slots for customizing regular mods, like weapons. Abilities and regular mods share Mod Capacity (60+Aura)

- Have extra slots unlock at Master Rank 5 and 10 respectively

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[ensignvidiot]

You have my +1

 

for me to find a true balance between melee 2.0 and ability use.. almost all of my warframe builds have to drop 1 or 2 abilities to have a truely balanced build (im talking no corrupted mods)

[Vitras]

I still think it's silly abilities are mods in the first place. Anyway, you're point about weapons having 8 slots while frames have 6 is quite right. +1

[artemis9]

ummmmmmmm, I'm sorry but, HELL NO. that would be so incredibally OP that this game would nt even be a challenge at lvl 50 so sorry but no.

[taiiat]

i'm very far from for adding more Mod Slots. it's a balance nightmare.

 

i'd rather see Powers correctly relate to Mods so that all powers are affected by all Mod effects. no power is 'immune' to being modified. that defeats the purpose of having Mods.

 

that alongside trying to trim down on the sheer number of Enemies a bit and make each unit 'more' of everything (more effective in combat, drops things more often, more XP awardment, etc) - should allow players to not 'need' to have every Warframe setup just to clear rooms with no other purpose whatsoever.

 

that should be enough choice as to where players may very well decide not to equip some of those Mods anymore depending on their playstyle. which frees more slots for things that may be Melee oriented.

 

 

it's a much more thought out way of improving the situation without giving up like many decisions have done in the past and simply resort to Stat Creep to 'solve' the problem at hand (which all of those problems still exist mind you, those problems now just have bigger stats on them. went well, didn't it).

[LukeAura]

I feel as though would just use it to squeeze in more of the mods they deem 'vital'. The ones that improve their abilities over using them on the more interesting but maybe less effective mods. Other than that though, I completely agree with your observation.

 

[Varzy]

I feel as though would just use it to squeeze in more of the mods they deem 'vital'. The ones that improve their abilities over using them on the more interesting but maybe less effective mods. Other than that though, I completely agree with your observation.

It's possible (people do it with primary and secondary weapons, after all), but min/maxed builds are already so chock full to capacity, would there even be any Mod capacity for them to use those generally-expensive 'vital' mods? If that's the case they'd have to use a truckload of forma and drop an ability Mod to free up capacity, meaning they're back to square one, is my thoughts on that.

 

i'm very far from for adding more Mod Slots. it's a balance nightmare.

 

i'd rather see Powers correctly relate to Mods so that all powers are affected by all Mod effects. no power is 'immune' to being modified. that defeats the purpose of having Mods.

 

that alongside trying to trim down on the sheer number of Enemies a bit and make each unit 'more' of everything (more effective in combat, drops things more often, more XP awardment, etc) - should allow players to not 'need' to have every Warframe setup just to clear rooms with no other purpose whatsoever.

 

that should be enough choice as to where players may very well decide not to equip some of those Mods anymore depending on their playstyle. which frees more slots for things that may be Melee oriented.

 

 

it's a much more thought out way of improving the situation without giving up like many decisions have done in the past and simply resort to Stat Creep to 'solve' the problem at hand (which all of those problems still exist mind you, those problems now just have bigger stats on them. went well, didn't it).

I think I get what you're saying but really I'm just proposing a fix that can be made tomorrow, rather than Mods 3.0.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[OptimumBow0]

I'd quite like this, actually.

[SethA007]

ummmmmmmm, I'm sorry but, HELL NO. that would be so incredibally OP that this game would nt even be a challenge at lvl 50 so sorry but no.

Explain. Elaborate. I do not understand what you mean by "It would be so incredibly OP that this game would not even be a challenge at level 50." Go to pluto. Use a Loki. Equip your best build. Don't use OP weapons. Tell me, wish you had some extra mods for your frame? How about defensive mods? Mobility mods? Power enhancing mods? I would, and I do. Again, do this on a Pluto survival or defense. Go for at least wave 50 or at least 40 minutes. Tell me how it works out. No Synapse, no dread, no despair, no uberly OP weapons.

[SethA007]

ummmmmmmm, I'm sorry but, HELL NO. that would be so incredibally OP that this game would nt even be a challenge at lvl 50 so sorry but no.

Also: Keyboard warrior. Please leave.

[S7ORM]

Explain. Elaborate. I do not understand what you mean by "It would be so incredibly OP that this game would not even be a challenge at level 50." Go to pluto. Use a Loki. Equip your best build. Don't use OP weapons. Tell me, wish you had some extra mods for your frame? How about defensive mods? Mobility mods? Power enhancing mods? I would, and I do. Again, do this on a Pluto survival or defense. Go for at least wave 50 or at least 40 minutes. Tell me how it works out. No Synapse, no dread, no despair, no uberly OP weapons.

I do that all the time - I main Loki (Loki Master Race ftw), and I use all the weapons for mastery rank. I run ceres, pluto, neptune and phobos because they're great xp.

I can tell you that if I had two extra polarities, it would definately decrease the difficulty of the game - I don't currently run vitality, which makes for a tricky spot when those flying grineer shoot missles, or bombards and napalms have AoE. I'm voting NO to more polarity slots.

However, this:

...but min/maxed builds are already so chock full to capacity, would there even be any Mod capacity for them to use those generally-expensive 'vital' mods?...

Is the best argument FOR I've seen.

The thing is though, people WILL drop forma on their warframes no problem. Look at Timothy over there with 6 forma'd Synapse, or Jacob with his 5 Forma Soma and 2 forma Rhino. They are already looking at very little challenge from the game. I personally dislike playing with those kind of people, and giving them more power is just a no-no.

And that, to use your word good sir,

is my thoughts on that.

[Leuca]

I'd advocate removing two slots, and removing abilities as mods. Boom, 8 mod slots.

[Varzy]

I'd advocate removing two slots, and removing abilities as mods. Boom, 8 mod slots.

That'd be good too. I'd actually keep abilities as mods, but give them their own separate section with a max capacity of 16.

 

The thing is though, people WILL drop forma on their warframes no problem. Look at Timothy over there with 6 forma'd Synapse, or Jacob with his 5 Forma Soma and 2 forma Rhino. They are already looking at very little challenge from the game. I personally dislike playing with those kind of people, and giving them more power is just a no-no.

Thanks for your thoughts. Honestly I'm less concerned about what Timmy and Jacob are doing because they're already having fun. Minmaxers gonna minmax, and in the meantime I'm losing out on gameplay by trading one of my abilities for Sure Footing, simply because I don't want to be knocked around like a pinball fighting Grineer, but still want my remaining abilities to have an effect.

As it stands there's not enough room for experimental yet competitive play, and only Timmy and Jacob actually feel strong, you know?

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[Oizen]

Rather see ability mods removed, and the = polarties removed from all warframes too.

[Varzy]

Rather see ability mods removed, and the = polarties removed from all warframes too.

Hey, sweet, 666 posts. Nekros poster~

 

I can get behind that strategy too. Fundamentally I want the same customization options for frames that weapons have, especially since frames have much more concerns to juggle. In principle I'm not opposed to sacrificing an ability or two for more power, but only as an optional, higher level thing rather than the necessity we find ourselves in right now.

[VergilDT]

I'm in favor of a method of expanding warframe capacity a bit. Often especially post melee 2.0 I find I have to sacrifice a mod that would help my builds be as effective as possible, for a stamina mod on really slow frames or sometimes 2 mods to make a good melee build

[Airwolfen]

It was done this way so you need to wisely choose what you want to use. many people even prefer to only use two skill mods and use the open two for more power. but that is the tradeoff. while i like more slots. this makes it way more interesting as you will need to specialize in what you want and not just take all the things.

[Varzy]

It was done this way so you need to wisely choose what you want to use. many people even prefer to only use two skill mods and use the open two for more power. but that is the tradeoff. while i like more slots. this makes it way more interesting as you will need to specialize in what you want and not just take all the things.

I disagree. Wisely choosing what you want to use can be limited simply with existing Mod Capacity. The limit of 60+Aura will still be present and spread across 12 slots rather than 8 like weapons, so just because you have two extra slots does not guarantee you can use whatever mods you want.

 

Players may find they still have to sacrifice an Ability to free up Capacity for another high-cost mod, but aside from Timmy and Jacob the Minmaxers, players won't feel the need to remove their abilities to get the benefit of a utility mod that enhances gameplay.

 

Like I said in the OP, the idea that to reach a comfortable strength you have to short-change your gameplay is ridiculous. In my experience it's neither interesting nor fun. It's a constant frustration.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[Edgedemon]

Each weapon has 8 mod slots. Frames have 12, but since abilities take up 4 slots (which are polarized accordingly) there is effectively only 6 slots to use. 

 

12 - 4 = 6 ... someone got held back on mathematics 

 

Fundamentally, I want to try out builds with Reflex Guard, or Sure Footing, or stamina mods without totally shooting my defenses or abilities in the foot. I want to use all four of my frame's abilities in missions instead of skimping out on one or two of them so that I can survive or get a bit of utility. Every build I take that's not a cookie-cutter "Redirection/Vitality+Ability enhancers" feels fun, but too weak to satisfy me in-game for very long.

 

your supposed to choose a trade off, there's already too many ways to get OP already

 

EDIT: try using Vigour instead of Vitality/Redirection and go for mid build

Edited April 12, 2014 by Edgedemon

[Varzy]

12 - 4 = 6 ... someone got held back on mathematics 

Yeah, sure looks it. Frames have 10 slots, effectively only 6. I had the +2 suggestion in mind writing it, I'll edit it now.

 

 

 

your supposed to choose a trade off, there's already too many ways to get OP already

 

EDIT: try using Vigour instead of Vitality/Redirection and go for mid build

Tradeoffs would still be present, in the same way there are tradeoffs for weapons - Mod Capacity. Sacrificing your abilities is an artificial tradeoff that limits gameplay and what makes the game different from other shooters. It makes no sense for frames to have less customization than weapons when the frames do so much more than guns.

 

I don't see how Vigor comes into the discussion. I never use Vitality and Redirection in the same setup, if that's what you meant?

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[Volt_Cruelerz]

To be perfectly honest, I agree with this.  I'd personally vote that the extra slots be linked to mastery.  Perhaps give one at 5 and one at 10?

 

A part of me still longs for the days of Mods 1.0 where I could have all my abilities and 11 mods on my Volt...  

[S7ORM]

As it stands there's not enough room for experimental yet competitive play, and only Timmy and Jacob actually feel strong, you know?

That may be, but if you add more mod slots everyone can put all the mods they want - not just the most beneficial ones for their warframe.

I like that my warframe aren't all the same. Some need to focus more on some attributes, and some on others. However, give me more slots and I'll add some of the mods I missed out on to each of them.

With great power comes great responsibility

                                       higher voltage and amperage

                                       a common build.

I want uniqueness. I want my warframe to not be all powerful - Tenno have weaknesses too (in the form of rolling spikey balls). It makes the game a little bit more than walking around holding the mouse button down (and tapping e, if you're up for Melee 2.0).

[Varzy]

After doing some further small calculations and experimenting on Warframe Builder, I've found that the 60+Aura capacity has scope to support 12 mods, but requires some serious investment of forma -- 2~3 Forma to make full use of +1 slot, and 4~5 to make full use of both.  Without that investment you fall short.

 

So, yes, there's scope for Timmy and Jacob the Minmaxers to shovel Forma into their frames and make themselves even stronger. However, I don't think that's a valid reason not to expand our mod slots to 12. Why? Because they're already doing that. They're already minmaxing to a huge degree, and it's because the current setup rewards that frank pragmatism over experimentation and alternative play. Our current mod system is too confined to allow for different kinds of setups from being competitive.

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I agree with this.  I'd personally vote that the extra slots be linked to mastery.  Perhaps give one at 5 and one at 10?

 

A part of me still longs for the days of Mods 1.0 where I could have all my abilities and 11 mods on my Volt...  

Mastery locked is a great idea. I think I was about rank 5 before I had a good spread of mods and really started using Forma, so it seems about right.

 

 

I want uniqueness. I want my warframe to not be all powerful - Tenno have weaknesses too (in the form of rolling spikey balls). It makes the game a little bit more than walking around holding the mouse button down (and tapping e, if you're up for Melee 2.0).

I want uniqueness too -- but right now what I've got is the same build across every frame, because Redirection/Vitality and Ability adjusters are too important to neglect. The result then is that I'm replacing my Ability mods, the actual unique aspects of my warframes, in order to try out the utility mods like Reflex Guard or Sure Footing. The current system isn't providing uniqueness, and further it's contradictory to the rest of the game's mod design strategy, with the weapons having 8 slots.

 

Believe me, I understand what you're saying, but sacrificing your abilities in order to feel comfortable playing the game, which is my and other's experience, is an artificial weakness. If two extra mods mark the difference between a fun challenge and a walk in the park, then that's a deeper problem with the game design (either on the mod side of things, or the gameplay and enemies themselves, or even both).

 

(I'm not trying to sneakily get more power here. Corrupted mods like Blind Rage and Fleeting Expertise are overpowered regardless of this discussion. DE should consider a nerf to bring them to the level of Magnum Force vs Hornet Strike, ie a buff that's about 50-70% of the standard buff, but with an equivalent drawback.)

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

I agree overall. Should add 2 extra mod slots and make the 4 ability slots ability-only (like aura slot is aura-only). So you only have 8 slots to customize, no more, no less. There are 5 more, but they are 4 ability slots and 1 aura slot, and they can't hold anything else.

[Varzy]

I agree overall. Should add 2 extra mod slots and make the 4 ability slots ability-only (like aura slot is aura-only). So you only have 8 slots to customize, no more, no less. There are 5 more, but they are 4 ability slots and 1 aura slot, and they can't hold anything else.

Would certainly simplify things when the generic ability mods are introduced.

 

Key point is, though, the 4 ability slots and 8 customization slots share the same pool of Mod Capacity.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Varzy