Let Me See If I Understand: Rhino Prime Is Now The Perfect Frame

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

WARLOCKE Ok if you DO want to talk rationally that would be a good change, sorry about that.

Look i know RHINO has a severe weakness: Hes very tanky but also REALLY slow and that balances out all his tankiness and CC buuuuut Rhino PRIME removed that weakness and couple whit "better" polarities (Wich depends on how you build him) just makes him perfect in every sence of the Word, no weakeness just pure perfection whit or without Mods.

 

If you can give me ONE weakness that RHino prime has, besides the prosses to get him, i will be glad to hear it.

[WARLOCKE]

and if you put max rush with it, Rhino Prime can exceed Loki in sprint mode..

and I agreed with you there

 

Whut? Explain.

[WARLOCKE]

WARLOCKE Ok if you DO want to talk rationally that would be a good change, sorry about that.

Look i know RHINO has a severe weakness: Hes very tanky but also REALLY slow and that balances out all his tankiness and CC buuuuut Rhino PRIME removed that weakness and couple whit "better" polarities (Wich depends on how you build him) just makes him perfect in every sence of the Word, no weakeness just pure perfection whit or without Mods.

If you can give me ONE weakness that RHino prime has, besides the prosses to get him, i will be glad to hear it.

Already have. But ill do it again.

1) He scales horribly. His damage becomes negligible by the time you hit 30+ content. Iron Skin becomes paper skin not much after that. Leaving him with Roar, which is a decent buff..but not worth slotting him for and a very good CC. Which I guess is more than my main man Ash, Buff Ash plox.

So, thats why he is never slotted for high wave games, he doesnt bring anything others dont and they do it better. Hell it can even be argued that Excalibro himself has better CC with RB, and I may just agree with that.

Also, this is not a weakness only exclusive to Rhino and Rhino Prime, many frames do not hold out on high level content. But that doesnt make it NOT a weakness.

2) Low stamina pool. He runs out so fast that its kinda funny and sad all at the same time. Yes you can mod for this, but your wasting a valueable mod slot to do something he doesnt need to do. He needs speed to get into range for a few charges and stomps. He doesnt need to keep up with Loki on a speed run. But it is still a weakness.

3) Not really a weakness, but ot kinda fits into this reply. He cant tank for beans. No frame can. But I add this because peoplelike to use it as a excuse for why he needs to be Frost slow.

Is Rhino Prime a good frame. Sure, why not. He doesnt age well but can be a solid choice for most content offered and only becoming unviable much later.

And here is why I spend most of my forum tiime defending a frame I dont even play outside of a few solo runs. Its because there are HUGE problems in warframe right now. Rhino and his speed are not even close to being one of them. Neither was Nova back when all the crykids gushed emo over her.

Edited April 16, 2014 by WARLOCKE

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

WARLOCKE

 

1) If he scales so horribly then why 99% of the time i go to the void there is always at least One Rhino on the team? or why rhino is the most used frame in high lv missions? And how you say he doesnt scale well? Yeah Roar and Rhino skin may not be that usefull in high lv but his Rhino stomp spam more than makes up for it to the point is even better than Excalibur's God flash and its Equivalent to Vauban's Balliste since enemies are suspended in the air for several seconds wayting to be headshotted.

 

2) No he doesnt, normal Rhino has relatively normal Stamina is just that he is so slow that your spending more stamina to go anywhere, something that Rhino Prime has no problem whit.

 

3) He has one of the largest shields in the game, avobe average Health (I think only beated by Valkyr who is pure health and no shields) and avobe average Armor, second only to Valkyr who, again, is to compensate the fact that she has no shields. Even in high lvs his iron skin is still usefull since it really doesnt Dissapear in seconds unless your fighting lv 100 enemies, whos damage is off the CHARTS, and most of the time if your Rhino skin is going down in seconds your doing something wrong.

 

I have used Rhino, i know his strenghts and weaknesses inside out, he was the first warframe i builded for crying out loud and i liked him cause im the kind of guy who likes Slow but Powerful characters.

 

Rhino has strong and reliable CC and fair tankiness, extended by mods, so its sluggish speed was suposed to compensate all his power but when Rhino Prime comes into play he ruins all Little sence of balance this game had and said "ok you wanna just rush through the entire game without worrying to die? here you go! easy mode onine!".

 

I know the Game itself has dificulty probles (by that i mean some lv are stupidly easy and others bronekly hard) but whit most frames you do have the challenge to go through a lv without dying, and there are some lvs that has fair challenges and i wish more of he game was like it. The void for example, its enemies are pretty varied making it a strong forcé to fight and the lvs themself are pretty intesnce testing your acrobatic skills and map awareness whit deadly traps and mobility challenges but then Rhino Prime comes in and turns EVERYTHING into easy mode.

 

High Health, Shields and armor, whit strong CC and anti-cc shield whit now a natural increased speed means there is not use in using any other frame than him. People always rushes to see what weapon is the "BETS EVER KILL EVERYTHING IN ONE SHOT" or the carácter who is the 2MOST POWERFUL EVA"  and DE just gave Rhino fans another reason to Yell at us about why Rhino is so badass.

[Valafor]

Maybe we should rather buff other frames to be equally viable in late game as Rhino is, than nerfing him?

NEVER should we buff everything just so everything can be on par with 1 or 2 OP things in its category. The only time we should buff everything is when most things are not viable. We are not saying that all the other warframes are not viable, but Rhino is currently able to overshadow them completely thanks to superior speed, defensive and offensive capabilities. If we buff everything, it might make everyone happy in the short term, but then in the long term we have developed a power curve, because if everything is made so powerful, DE will practically have to make one even more powerful to even be interesting. Not to mention, if we buff everything, eventually DE will be forced to buff the enemies so they remotely stand a chance.

If you were making a ladder, and one of the steps happened to be too wide, would you make the whole ladder wider, and meticulously add a piece of material to each step? No, you would just cut the elongated piece to the same size as everyone else. If we wouldn't use the "Buff everything" logic in real life, why should we use it here?

Edited April 16, 2014 by Valafor

[Guest Shibboleet]

Rhino is the most rounded frame when it comes to mid to late game. He isn't the best, but he isn't bad either.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Shibboleet again RHINO is very well rounded balance wise, Rhino PRIME on the other hand isnt. Remember the saying "Jack of all traids, master of none"? well RHino Prime is "Jack of none, master of everything"

[Guest Shibboleet]

Shibboleet again RHINO is very well rounded balance wise, Rhino PRIME on the other hand isnt. Remember the saying "Jack of all traids, master of none"? well RHino Prime is "Jack of none, master of everything"

So he moves a little faster and he becomes the best frame?

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Shibboleet yup. Because he already had powerfull CC and defences so to compensate he was very slow. As his defences and CC where strong to begin whit people could actually focu their mods to fix his seed from the beguining and work on more specialized builds later on. Every frame needs a drawback to counter its advantages and increasing his speed may look like a small change but affects the entire point of Rhino to begin whit.

 

For examle what if Loki prime, to be better tan his normal counterpart, is not just he fastest frame but now the Prime versión has higher shields and Health, comparable to the likes of Valkyr and Rhino. Do you call that balance? is not its removing what make each warframe unique, the learing curve that is diferent in each frame.

[Guest Shibboleet]

Shibboleet yup. Because he already had powerfull CC and defences so to compensate he was very slow. As his defences and CC where strong to begin whit people could actually focu their mods to fix his seed from the beguining and work on more specialized builds later on. Every frame needs a drawback to counter its advantages and increasing his speed may look like a small change but affects the entire point of Rhino to begin whit.

 

For examle what if Loki prime, to be better tan his normal counterpart, is not just he fastest frame but now the Prime versión has higher shields and Health, comparable to the likes of Valkyr and Rhino. Do you call that balance? is not its removing what make each warframe unique, the learing curve that is diferent in each frame.

.1 more sprint speed is all it took?

 

Honestly I didn't even use Rhino for his movement speed, as I play late game. So I am giving my late game perspective. He is the most balanced warframe out there, even with a slightly faster sprint speed. Never have I ever started making a comp based around Rhino, because all he has is roar and stomp. Roar is decent, but damage usually isn't the issue, and if you need that ~100% increase in damage you won't get far. As for his stomp, it's good for defending the pod, but since it has a CD based on if there is a target still in freefall it can't be 100% relied upon.

 

In the end, in my eyes, Rhino is the perfect frame for newer players and for players that won't play past 50 waves or an hour in survival.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Shibboleet

[Davoodoo]

I always figured that the proper way to balance something like this would be to buff its strengths, not its weaknesses. It makes the item/frame/whatever in question more powerful, without making it flawless. Rhino Prime, however, doesn't follow this idea, and let's be honest, his Vanguard helmet doesn't help.

 

Unfortunately, many people in the community seem to take on the stance of a petulant child when someone even vaguely alludes towards taking away their shiny toy, no matter how abhorrent or broken it may be.

If you want to create a counter then yes that would be the case, but it becomes harder when you need to consider more factors in balancing and you would need to adjust whole crew every time new factor appears(like new champion).

Thats one of reasons why lol is so unbalanced.

 

It is much easier to just remove weakness/excesive strength from whole crew, set a baseline and adjust factors to match it.

Removing weakness ofc doesnt mean that everyone should be jacks of all trades, but rather that if you have ability that is underpeforming buff or rework it.

Great example would be nyx, she have awesome cc which is without any doubt her strength, but no frame should specialise in only 1 field and her direct damaging ability psychic bolts doesnt have enough dmg and is underperforming. You should either buff it or rework to make it more useable if numbers already match baseline.

Another example would be zephyr, highest mobility frame with pretty good cc and superior tanking capabilities. Reworking ultimate just to remove cc would make this frame too focused on base stats instead of abilities but why not just lower her shields and hp and adjust turbulence. Its not that tanky anymore.

 

As for rhino, his main strength is that most of his power is made into his stomp and other abilities just support it, this means that he can build pure power strength and suffer nothing from it cause everything he needs is 1 stomp cast.

Instead of nerfing him directly lets move stasis effect from stomp to roar and make it scale with duration and strength, this way he will need to sacrifice something, either strength, duration, range or efficiency and will still keep its strengths. If you stack duration then enemies will be heavily slowed at short range or barely slowed at long range, also your iron skin will be weak and stomp wont do much dmg and roar will provide only moderate or weak buff, if you stack strength then you wont be able to use whole combo due to lack of energy or you will sacrifice duration of roar making cc decent at best.

 

As for rhino prime adjust his speed to match regular rhino, i see no reason to force ppl into primes just because they have higher stats, instead they should choose which look they prefer and have at least minor choice.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Davoodoo

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Shibboleet Aparently it was, not sure how Movement speed is calculated but apparently that small buff made him almos as fast as loki and whit a rush build he may reach the cap, essecially making the big fat tank as fast as the Master Racer.

[r0ckwolf]

the prime system sucks &#!!!! why bother bringing out an item or frame when everbody knows there will be a duplicate eventually which is the same, just better! Oh yeah and it doesn´t costt anything....

This is just plain dumb, lazy gamedesign! There should be drawback in using Primes, like with the old Helmets, get more HP for Rhino but become even slower!!!! 

Releasing duplicates of existing Gear with a gold finish and better stats is powercreepish nonsense!

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

r0ckwolf Woah woah calm down bro, while i agree that in most games when they pull this trick its bullS#&$ but in this game it actially makes sence that the Prime is better tan normal since the Primes are SUposed to be the originals, thus making them better overall BUT they should be better in their role. I do agree that Primes should come whit some kind of drawback, would be interresting.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Davoodoo I understand but if you wanna buff a carácter whit an spesific role in the team you just cant take it out of said role cause it will cut the customization aspect of the game. WHy would i pick excalibur if Rhino Prime CC is better, why would i pick loki if i can run faster than him and have as much utility for the team as a tank, Why would i pick Valkyr if i have as much mobility as her and Iron skin i can be as tanky, if not tankier.

 

Making such a perfect frame encourage people to just play THAT frame cause its the best, and not just by opinions but stat wise. Again each Warframe has its advantages and drawbacks so players are encouraged to choose wich one is the best for them.

[RealPandemonium]

He is just as fast as Loki if speed built, which all Lokis should be doing anyway.

Rush is considered mandatory on Loki.

Rhino Prime can be built for speed as well if needed anyway.

I wouldn't say Rush is mandatory on a frame that can go invisible and is already fast in addition to being able to cross a 50m gap instantly.  

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

The problem isn't really Rhino Prime, he's okay. It's the Vanguard helm. That thing fucks everything up. 

 

Ember Prime massively out DPS Rhino, but she so badly needs a speed increase to 1.15, the same a Nyx, and her extra polarity slot returned. Her bonus could be slightly higher shields.

 

Mag Prime is good, but the Damage 2.0 tables screw her over badly vs the Grineer. Bonus, higher energy pool maybe.

 

Frost Prime..... riiiiiiiiight. Needs a big overhaul on powers 1,2 and 4. SG is okay. Could really do with a base speed increase.

[Tsunero]

Still QQ'ing about Rhino Prime? LOL

[Tatersail]

Didn't read the last 2 pages... but..

Rhino is fine, his Iron skin becomes simply a knockdown shield when grouped with trinity

His roar doesn't seem to effect blast on Ogris, and requires duration so clashes with rhino stomp using fleeting.

 

Rhino stomp is an OK CC, but has power in use issues and really requires, max overextended and max stretch.

Excal radial blind has better use, and adds the 4x melee damage bonus which means alot in melee 2.0

 

 

I never played Rhino because he was so stupidly slow, I played rhino prime a little and liked the new speed bonus, but I quickly moved on, he is the "jack of all trades, but Master of none"

 

other frames do what he can, only better, keeping him as a "roar bot" seems like his only real use.

 

 

Cons:

-Rhino has no "spammable" ultimate and only deals 800 blast(a poor element) damage, this is a control skill not a damage one

-Rhino iron skin does not scale and becomes less valuable as things increase in level, and with no UI to show ho much is left can go down at bad times.

-Rhino has a low energy pool, making him less usable in melee 2.0 and skills less usable.

-Rhino has normal health despite having good armor, making him less tanky on the health side.

 

 

 

You want mag to have shield regen? when mag has a spammable skill that total restores her massive shield pool?

[Naqel]

All prime frames should be buffed to be better than their normal counterparts

 

The very core of your post, something without which the rest of it cannot exist, is a lie, and a thing that should NEVER happen.

[HiroProtagonest]

Didn't read the last 2 pages... but..

Rhino is fine, his Iron skin becomes simply a knockdown shield when grouped with trinity

Yeah, Iron Skin's real strength isn't the layer of health, it's the immunity to procs.

[__Kanade__]

Rhino is incredibly mainstream, the parties have no variety at all, it's just Rhino. It's very rare to join a game where there isn't a Rhino.

 

And mainstream doesn't need anymore buffs, be happy with what you have.

[taiiat]

how about let Rhino Prime stay the same, and just add something to the other prime. 

Prime items don't need more Stat Creep than they already have. they already completely invalidate the previous 'versions' of that Equipment.

 

i do wish Digital Extremes would look at ingame Chat once in a while. if anyone ever asks as a new player what people think of Equipment, they're all told to get the same Weapons, Frames, and Mods. 'use X Y and T'. and they'll do it, too. because someone told them to.

 

but the important part is, that these are often Prime items, and they therefore completely skip anything that isn't Prime, because they're told that content is a waste of time.

and technically, it is. 

 

so once more Digital Extremes, you continue to outdo yourself on invalidating your own content. i can only hope one day you wake up and see it. hopefully before players leave due to 'lack of content' (which is pretty true, they skipped 95% of the content you made, and new players are 'Endgame' within a couple weeks, sitting around with nothing to do)

 

2) Rhino scales very poorly in relation to higher enemies. Its not uncommon to have to stomp a heavy gunner at 30+ about 15 times before it will die. Iron Skin melts in seconds to any degree of focused fire at this level as well. This is not endless defense. This is t3 (barely).

 

3) Lrnyourframes. Whlie Rhino does have a very fast move speed, it also has one of the lowest stamina pools making that speed burst only. Kinda like its namesake in reality maybe?

 

4) Go cry about something that IS broken. Fleeting Blessing comes to mind.

- almost everything scales poorly. not that important. keeping Balance good in that long Defense and Survival would be great, but ultimately the official part of the game comes first.

so almost any other Damage based power would also be pretty garbage against that high Armor. Utility is superior to Damage anyways, it's far more reliable.

 

- this is a fallacy. all Warframes have the same Stamina Pool. all 80 Stamina.

 

- there are indeed many things that are broken, many things that could use tweaks here and there. they'll all hopefully get them in due time. doesn't mean talking about one instead of the other is a problem.

 

2)So wait, ppl say hes OP because stomp deals so much damage it clears rooms and ruins games. But now your crying about its CC? Which  is it? Do you even know anymore? Andwait, I thought he was OP and should be slow because hes a tank......that now, according to you, shouldnt play like  tank? YOu need to pick a beef.

 

5) Rhino has a weakness or two,, you just dont want to or are (and im sorry to say this, im not trying to be rude)  to noobish to see it. Is Rhino a stong frame? Depends on the circumstance. And not scaling well IS a weakness.

as forementioned, there's only two or three powers that scale very well. the majority of which, scale too well, as their benefits are as usual, immune to many Mod Effects, yet are extremely powerful. but that's another thread.

Utility is a very powerful thing. though honestly, while it does stop a group of any size, Stomp moves Weakpoints to unreachable positions, requiring repositioning to shoot them. that combined with being unable to use Stomp again until it times out, i suppose makes it okay. maybe. i'm not sure.

 

if Rhino has weaknesses, then his weaknesses are realatively insignificant compared to the ones other frames have. RhinoP is definitely applicable here.

[existentialvoid]

Maybe we should rather buff other frames to be equally viable in late game as Rhino is, than nerfing him?

 

the thing is, Rhino is not viable 'late game' - he in really good in the solar map and for most of what you do in WF - but if you are really going to push content wave 50+ defense, super long survivals - then Rhino, and even trinity, is not really what you want.  Frames like Nekros, Frost/vauban, Nyx and Nova become more viable.  Rhino and Trinity rule the solar map though. . .

[Guest Shibboleet]

the thing is, Rhino is not viable 'late game' - he in really good in the solar map and for most of what you do in WF - but if you are really going to push content wave 50+ defense, super long survivals - then Rhino, and even trinity, is not really what you want.  Frames like Nekros, Frost/vauban, Nyx and Nova become more viable.  Rhino and Trinity rule the solar map though. . .

Correct about Rhino, but Trinity is the best frame for late/end game right now.