Ammo 2.0

[Fulmir]

No you don't understand. Yes, the ammo system is part of the engine, but so is the modding system. They can tweak the backend of the modding system to pretend to change the ammo system by basically giving a weapon a "mod" that is always equipped that gives the balancing change they want. The code for increasing ammo pickup values is already there, try using a scav mod and you'll see it in action.

 

This is why I had that comment about squinting at your problems until they look like nails. There's tools at their disposal to fix it, and while at first glance it's a square peg and a round hole, the square peg is small enough to still fit.

 

You really don't understand how coding works... at least not good coding.

There's nothing saying they can't change ammo values, that's just a code change, what "hard coded" means is that it would be a ton of work to implement anything the OP is suggesting.

[Eirshy]

You really don't understand how coding works... at least not good coding.

There's nothing saying they can't change ammo values, that's just a code change, what "hard coded" means is that it would be a ton of work to implement anything the OP is suggesting.

 

Wow, no.

 

"Hard coded" means either it's part of the compiler itself- meaning there's probably a very Good reason for it being as it is, usually hardware related.

 

If you want an example of something that is *actually* hard-coded, try the 4-gig ceiling of memory in use in the vast majority of 32-bit programs. I can't say all because it IS possible to build a memory manager in a 32-bit environment that can talk about addresses in 64-bit terms, however it is not really worth the overhead nowadays since you can natively use a 64-bit environment, and it was very very rarely worth the overhead before 64-bit processing became a thing.

 

There's no way in hell that it's actually a hard-coded thing that's causing the problem, however it might be something that may as well be "hard coded" if there are enough dependancies to make changing it directly complete &#! to accomplish. The way around that is to implement your fix in a way that only uses what's already in place- figuring out how to treat your problems as nails because you're fixing them with a hammer regardless of if a hammer is the best-suited tool for what the problem really is.

 

What I suggested is built within the modding system, which has already been proven to be able to work with the current ammo system as-is *and* uses only features of the modding system already in place (there's already a mod that increases ammo recovery (Scavenger mods) and a mod that increases ammo pools (Ammo Drum, etc); the only addition would be the mod slot, but then, Stances already demonstrated they can add "aura" objects to weapons that are only applicable to specific weapons. A cost-0 mod that comes like the 1 power on frames woud work, and make them only equipable on the weapon they're specifically for. This wouldn't even need to be hidden, and would suffice until a more elegant solution could be implemented (such as letting weapons apply mod-like effects to themselves, which might already be possible). This is using stuff that is at worst copy paste and change some var names, and is even more likely just uncommenting some code.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Another edit reply so I don't have to bump this damn thread and perpetuate this stupid argument.

 

Traditional "Hard Coded" is a constant at the top, or a "Magic Number" (meaning a value that should technically be editable at the top of a program but is instead instanced as a constant throughout the code), however, the first is *insanely* easy to change and the second is something you should never do (in the C family we have compiler directives for a reason, use one of those if you want the speed of a constant; Java probably has some equivalent).

 

Yes, the recompile would be annoying, but it's not a hard task- just a time consuming one. Considering the amount of core changes they make all the time, I highly, *highly* doubt these would be reasons they wouldn't be willing to make a change if it was a good idea.

 

The only type of "hard coded" thing that would actually cause any difficulty in changing something is the third type, something hard coded into the compiler (using the traditional definition) or something that might as well be hard-coded into the compiler due to the amount of dependencies on its current behavior (as I explained in the post you replied to).

 

I admit I should have mentioned the traditional definition first, but seriously, we were in the context of this causing a problem with changing the ammo system, so I jumped to the explanations of the phrase "hard coded" that kept that context.

 

 

And yes, my solution presented was a complete hack. That's on-purpose. I was told by someone who doesn't work for DE that the code was too complex to really muck about with, so I implemented the fix for the problem using only code we already know is in place.

Edited May 9, 2014 by TheBlueJelly

[Fulmir]

Wow, no.

 

"Hard coded" means either it's part of the compiler itself- meaning there's probably a very Good reason for it being as it is, usually hardware related.

 

If you want an example of something that is *actually* hard-coded, try the 4-gig ceiling of memory in use in the vast majority of 32-bit programs. I can't say all because it IS possible to build a memory manager in a 32-bit environment that can talk about addresses in 64-bit terms, however it is not really worth the overhead nowadays since you can natively use a 64-bit environment, and it was very very rarely worth the overhead before 64-bit processing became a thing.

 

There's no way in hell that it's actually a hard-coded thing that's causing the problem, however it might be something that may as well be "hard coded" if there are enough dependancies to make changing it directly complete &#! to accomplish. The way around that is to implement your fix in a way that only uses what's already in place- figuring out how to treat your problems as nails because you're fixing them with a hammer regardless of if a hammer is the best-suited tool for what the problem really is.

 

What I suggested is built within the modding system, which has already been proven to be able to work with the current ammo system as-is *and* uses only features of the modding system already in place (there's already a mod that increases ammo recovery (Scavenger mods) and a mod that increases ammo pools (Ammo Drum, etc); the only addition would be the mod slot, but then, Stances already demonstrated they can add "aura" objects to weapons that are only applicable to specific weapons. A cost-0 mod that comes like the 1 power on frames woud work, and make them only equipable on the weapon they're specifically for. This wouldn't even need to be hidden, and would suffice until a more elegant solution could be implemented (such as letting weapons apply mod-like effects to themselves, which might already be possible). This is using stuff that is at worst copy paste and change some var names, and is even more likely just uncommenting some code.

Just no -_-

Here's the dictionary definition of Hard Coded: "fix (data or parameters) in a program in such a way that they cannot be altered without modifying the program."

Translation, anything that's coded into the program and not being pulled in from an external file, where changing that thing requires changing code and recompiling the program. This has zero to do with the compiler or hardware. Certainly nothing to do with the ammo system has to do with either of those things.

Please stop throwing around computing terms without actually understanding their meaning.

Given that you didn't understand what Hard Coded I can understand why you would suggest such a hacky way of modifying something they can change through code.

Without seeing the original quote from DE I can't say for sure the extent of what in the ammo system is hard-coded into the engine, but anything that they can modify through Mods they can change through code without the hacky approach of zero-cost mods and special mod slots.

[(PSN)TheVG1004]

I would go with the infinite ammo but with a twist. We all slowly regenerate magazines. The ammo drops would just be a boost to the next regen, or a fresh mag instantly. So instead of 60/540 as your ammo counter 60x7 or whatever, and then that x7 becomes and x6 forever reload, even if you reload only one bullet, and would slowly (with a meter) go back up to x7. Tone down the ammo drops and then you are golden.

 

 

Personally I would be fine with removing ammo in favor of infinite ammo and non-infinite clips.

 

Finite ammo has little effect on high rank players and only serves to discourage low level players because they're the only ones having to fire so much to kill enemies that they run out of ammo.

 

Finite ammo also serves to further lower the actual dps of certain weapons. For instance the (Wraith) Twin Vipers: really fun weapon to use but if you don't have ammo mutation mod on it you will run out of ammo extremely fast on higher level enemies. This means that you can't mod this weapon and weapons like it to their maximum damage capacity due to the fact that you basically have 1 less mod slot because it has been reserved for ammo mutation. The Amprex also totally fits into this category.

 

I would also be fine with ammo drops giving you a number of rounds based on the weapon you are using. I wouldn't want any weapon to receive less ammo than they get now aside from maybe the Ogris or Penta (only reduced these down to half what they are now) just give weapons that chew through ammo super fast ammo pickups of 40-80. My Wraith Twin Vipers fire 40 rounds per second with a 40 round clip. I can go through 80 rounds in literally 4 seconds. I feel that getting an ammo pickup of 80 is reasonable. As far as DPS goes the Brakk reigns supreme and basically never has to worry about ammo ever. The Wraith Twin Vipers are up there but not even close to the Brakk and only if you DON'T have ammo mutation on it.

 

Another idea that I just had is having regenerating ammo pools, this would encourage varied gameplay and weapon usage.

 

tl;dr Infinite ammo- yes. Specialized quantities for ammo drops- yes Regenerating ammo pools- yes    just please pick one

The Ammo Regen you guys mentioned would help. The game really needs it.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Brace yourselves, for when ammo will be a craftable consumable resource... you will all want the old ways back. 

 

(Joke Post mostly :P)

[DSpite]

Someone just said ammo was hard coded into the engine, implying its very hard or impossible to change, thats the end of the discussion on ammo. Its not going to change apparently, so just extend your suspension of disbelief a little more as you helicopter across a stage by swinging your arms really fast and accelerating to mach 15 by jumping off a wall.

 

I lol'ed and then facepalmed myself to boot.

 

I also think that trying to bring "sanity" to the ammo in WF is a waste of time. Technically speaking, we are using Void tech in everything, and that is practically the same as saying "our guns are magic". If you start getting nit-picky, you have to ask how a magical disk under your feet can refill ammo, or why your poison spitting weapon is storing the 200 liters of poison necessary for a full minute of sustained fire.

[Basalto]

Ogris. Yeah, 540 rockets in your body. How many Javelin rounds can a soldier carry? 2? 3? Come on, if the ammo system won't change, at least make the guns have better ammo pools... Possibly 6 magazines, depending on the gun. I'd like to see a Penta having only 30 grenades on the pool, along with the magazine. People use grenade launchers to kill lots of enemies at once. With Penta, it's 1 shot for each enemy and the ammo still won't run out. God-freakin'-damnit.

Here's my suggestion: you pick a blue ammo pack on the ground with a Braton. +1 magazine. You pick another blue ammo pack with a Penta. +1 magazine. Could also change that to +45 Braton bullets or +5 Penta grenades.

Also, why not craft special magazines with 100% proc? Like, loading a Tigris with 2 fire bullets that will deal ONLY fire damage with 100% chance to make the enemy catch on fire. Or loading a Vectis with a single ice point bullet that will slow the enemy. Resident Evil 5 had a grenade launcher with shock, flash, etc. rounds. Why not make something similar here?

Ah, I almost forgot: grenades. We need grenades. Be them flash, smoke, frag, fire, gas, etc., I'd like to burst in a room and throw a stun grenade there, to make my Tigris cleaning easier.

"then y dont u play raibow six u fgt" Why thank you, I already do. Hence why I play Warframe without using Rhino and Boltor.

[Metalbawkses]

This is a pretty interesting suggestion, I would definitely support this. If they were to do this then I hope that they'll look into ammo mutation as well, the amount of ammo it give is a little disheartening. An ammo hungry Twin viper wraith gets +5 rounds with rifle ammo box and 10 from sniper and shotgun ammo while Ogris gets the same amount(not that ogris will ever need ammo mutation but its just to make a point).

[Corvid]

Hell, DE made the Evolution engine. Considering that dark Sector had a similar ammo system, I'd take DE's word for it that it cannot be changed.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I'm trying to conceptualize why it's impossible to tweak the maximum amount of ammo on a weapon, and the only solution I can come up with is they coded in only so many different weapon types, and while they CAN change the quantity in those pools, it's a broad sweeping change.  Still... it's BEYOND stupid to do so.  But that's development for you, someone is always making the stupidest decisions possible.

 

However, there is still a ray of hope.  The Grakata is an oddball in that while it starts the player with an initial 540 rounds in the pool, it can stock up to 675 (this is the only rifle I've used that does this.)  This implies that DE does have methods of adjusting ammunition variables after the fact.  For the Grakata, it's like having a hidden low rank ammo drum installed.  I'm pretty darn sure they could go through and install more invisible mods on weapons where appropriate to further tweak ammo consistencies.  Right now, it is true a lot of the more popular guns are only popular because they're not only powerful but also very ammo efficient as a result - I could use a Karak or Braton all day in T3 if it wouldn't run me dry after 5 minutes into the mission.  The obvious solution would be to install a hidden, scavenger mod (edited to work strictly for the individual player only) that increased ammo income for these weapons.  Upping the rate to +40 per box to start would go a very long way.

[(PSN)TheVG1004]

I do agree with the fact that the ammo system in the game is kinda whacked up. My play style is to get as close to max ammo before moving on. And my problem is somewhat solved. The ammo mutation mods are really helpful but don't convert enough. What I would recommend to DE is to put a mod or aura or something to give Ammo Regeneration. for certain weapons, you chose. Please do talk about the idea I posted in this.

[Tengu-musume]

they have publicly said the ammo is hard coded into the engin

And who hardcoded the engine?

[MoyuTheTrinity]

And who hardcoded the engine?

they bought the engine frome someone else but they own it and can mess with it as much as possible

they said it somewhere or insinuated it it has been a very long while

[Niryco]

I am all in favour of a system similar to destiny or payday 2, where we would have just primary and secondary ammo box as well as having ammo counters balance according to the other weapon stats so weapons that can deal alot of damage over time have a smaller ammo pool ,etc etc.

 

And also having a slight compulsion to see a clean floor, i really hate looking a box of ammo on the floor that i can't pick up when i don't have ammo mutation equipped. Yes ammo mutation is a good mod to equip, however i feel ammo mutation should increase the ammo that one picks up from ammo boxes, not convert ammo and to replenish your pool. Furthermore if weapon ammo capacity are being balanced by their total damage output, the mod would thus make sense to even stronger damaging weapons when players want to play it practically.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Jacate

[DSpite]

I'll say it again. We are using Void technology. If we can fire waves of Antimatter around like confetti, I don't see an issue in weapons that can summon extra ammunition from thin air.

 

What you guys are actually complaining about is not that the ammo in guns is weird, but the fact the DE actually stated "this gun has a magazine" rather then state "this gun creates ammo using nano machines that absorb material as your Warframe walks through a level" and now you can't wrap your head around the fact that we carry around 60 actual, physical magazine of actual ammo.

 

It's a game. For goodness sake, don't turn my pressing R to reload into a mini-game that needs extra micro-management.