Psa - What It Takes To Make Warframe

[PsychedelicSnake]

Good feedback consists of positive and negative points.

 

If a post/thread is all positive and no negative, the developers won't know what needs improving. This is bad feedback.

 

If a post/thread is all negative and no positive, the developers may think that everything bad, or things are worse than they actually are. Bad feedback.

 

If a post/thread has a good mixture of positive and negative, the developers will know what needs improving and what is alright to be left alone for a little bit, which in turn can let them focus more on what needs to be worked on. When it comes to game development, extremes (good or bad) have absolutely no place in feedback. They can be effective at times, but more often than not you will get better results having a mixed bag.

Edited May 17, 2014 by PsychedelicSnake

[Darkfreack]

https://www.google.com/

You know this is kinda what I'm talking about, this is not supportive at all. This is just you trying to looking a brilliant smart***. If you want to prove or assist in proving a point. Give solid points, not one off like, look for yourself because I cant be asked to prove you wrong.

[KrashOmnis]

I think there are several reasons some people's "feedback" is about as valuable as a right fielder in little league.  (Warning: I take no prisoners when it comes to vocabulary.)

 

1.  People are not rational.  If you were to pick a random bloke out of a lot, chances are they care more about how things make them feel than whether or not things are right or wrong, fact or fiction.  Most of the time, vitriolic and acerbic comments are motivated by a desire for catharsis, not some erudite dissemination of actionable feedback.  Such catharsis has more in common with recreational drug use than with edifying discourse.

 

2.  Most people don't understand that logic is only as good as its premises.  Do you hear the clarion call?  "DE makes such senseless decisions!"  "Sorry, DE, but this doesn't make any sense!"  Unfortunately, it has to be said: You. Don't. Know. That.  You aren't in the war room.  You have no more inside information than what you're given.  It is quite an act of "biting the hand that feeds" to employ doomsday language when that is all you know or see.  Doesn't mean you sudden can know nothing, but the portents of the game's eminent collapse sure should collapse.

 

3.  Hyperbole is the new subtlety.  When in doubt, use increasingly bombastic language.  Why say "I think x change is poor for y reason." when you COULD say "This HORRRIBLE bullcrap is just a sign that DE has gone to the birds."  It is very simple to use such increasingly extreme language that one reaches a point where "yes" doesn't mean "yes" and "no" doesn't even mean "no".  When you commit to saying only how you feel, and never really temper that with any reason, you're bound to exaggerate and serve only yourself with language that hardly means anything anymore.

 

Unfortunately, these things aren't unique to gaming communities.  Definitely a topic worth bringing up.  A bit of decorum, and consideration can go a long way.

[Joocyfroot]

I think there are several reasons some people's "feedback" is about as valuable as a right fielder in little league.

 

I think you are wrong.

 

All feedback is valuable, it's just a matter of scrutinizing the feedback.

 

The more you know about your customers the better, applies to any business really.

 

Blindly following feedback and taking the message that the feedback conveys as an absolute truth however, is quite dangerous in terms of running a business.

[Tengu-musume]

While the OP may seem pleasing to read, it actually dodges the "issue" of people bringing thngs up.

The OP is only telling people to be patient because _____ can be implemented in the future.

People raising ciriticisms and concerns on the forums are usually talking about what DE has done and are doing.

 

Should we stay silent and not say a thing about, I don't know, easymode? Braindead enemies? Lack of serious atmosphere?

[KrashOmnis]

Should we stay silent and not say a thing about, I don't know, easymode? Braindead enemies? Lack of serious atmosphere?

 

This is a decent example of a straw man.  You've taken what the OP said and purposely misrepresented so as to seem more extreme than it actually is, making it easier to deal with than actually doing the work of arguing properly.  No one is silencing you, this is not the KGB.

[Darkfreack]

While the OP may seem pleasing to read, it actually dodges the "issue" of people bringing thngs up.

The OP is only telling people to be patient because _____ can be implemented in the future.

People raising ciriticisms and concerns on the forums are usually talking about what DE has done and are doing.

 

Should we stay silent and not say a thing about, I don't know, easymode? Braindead enemies? Lack of serious atmosphere?

 

I did avoid the subject matter of time for feature ______. On the sole reason that nagging or complaining over it does not make it come out sooner, nor does it improve the quality of said feature in the end.

 

The issue I'm trying to address is not about feature ________ not coming out by time _______. What I'm trying to address and lessen is the fact that so many users are hostile because its not out yet. Even worse being that its is out and they hate what its changed.

 

We all by now have seen the spreadsheet with promised and spoke about features. We can see snippets of progress in the dev livestreams. We know they are in the works and are being finalized.

 

We just have to address and encourage real feedback that is not masked behind the vile of:

Beta

Soon™

Around  the corner™

Its Free to play, don't complain.

Pass the popcorn

Oh this thread again.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^

That up there just creates more hostile threads and makes things worse in the end. Which can cause hard to the community in the end, something I would really hate to see happen.

[KrashOmnis]

All feedback is valuable

 

I see what you are saying, but not all feedback is equally valuable.  I think you're making the assumption that all feedback is actually feedback, and not just emotional noise.  Certainly any feedback can be mined for some sort of objective information, and I'm 100% with you on needing to know your customers.  However, why would you spend your time mining through mountains of dross to find a pea of feedback, when there is someone right over there who actually cares.

[KeepOnFlowing]

I remember I watched this documentary on indie video game developers about 2 people making a game and I can tell you takes A LONG TIME even with more then 2 people. People always bug the hell out of these guys and ask "when is it coming out, WHEN!" The life of an indie developer is harder then big game studios but easier at the same time. Cut them some slack guys, it isn't easy.

Edited May 18, 2014 by BecomeLikeWater

[Tengu-musume]

This is a decent example of a straw man.  You've taken what the OP said and purposely misrepresented so as to seem more extreme than it actually is, making it easier to deal with than actually doing the work of arguing properly.  No one is silencing you, this is not the KGB.

KGB :p

Of course no one is actually silencing anyone. I'm not even saying that.

I'm saying there are issues that are present and the OP is talking about being patient and not pressuring DE to make future things happen.

The OP actually confirmed avoiding it, after you post by the way.

 

I did avoid the subject matter of time for feature ______. On the sole reason that nagging or complaining over it does not make it come out sooner, nor does it improve the quality of said feature in the end.

[Darkfreack]

KGB :p

Of course no one is actually silencing anyone. I'm not even saying that.

I'm saying there are issues that are present and the OP is talking about being patient and not pressuring DE to make future things happen.

The OP actually confirmed avoiding it, after you post by the way.

 

Like i said, time is not the issue, how the community behaving about it and how they addressing issues is the problem.

 

KrashOmnis, Mogamu, and Myself have youtube channels that revolve around Warframe. I can say that's a safe bet that we want a friendly and supportive community first and foremost for this game. We want to see it succeed and strive, we have really high hopes for it once is complete.

 

All I'm asking is for people here to spread the word and advice people things take time, patience, love, and constructive support in order for things to do better.

[syle]

oh I got it you are just pushing your warframe channel

nah ill pass

only decent channel is mogamu

Edited May 17, 2014 by syle

[Tengu-musume]

Like i said, time is not the issue, how the community behaving about it and how they addressing issues is the problem.

 

KrashOmnis, Mogamu, and Myself have youtube channels that revolve around Warframe. I can say that's a safe bet that we want a friendly and supportive community first and foremost for this game. We want to see it succeed and strive, we have really high hopes for it once is complete.

 

All I'm asking is for people here to spread the word and advice people things take time, patience, love, and constructive support in order for things to do better.

Ok, yeah I was replying to KrashOmnis who responded to me in a bit of an extreme way. Called me a straw man for saying something you yourself confirmed :p

[Darkfreack]

oh I got it you are just pushing your warframe channel

nah ill pass

only decent channel is mogamu

 

Are you seriously redirecting the attention. I'm saying we want to see a supportive community. Not saying hey look at me, i make videos, give me all the attention i desire. I said we make videos because we like the game and we want to create a supportive community.

 

Ok, yeah I was replying to KrashOmnis who responded to me in a bit of an extreme way. Called me a straw man for saying something you yourself confirmed :p

 

Yes, but that is derailing from the main point which he was supporting. We need to reward and encourage constructive feedback, discourage negative blind hate and rants bashing a change or feature.

[SevenLetterKWord]

What it takes to make Warframe, a TL;DR version:

Chassis

Helmet

Systems

Warframe BP

[Darkfreack]

What it takes to make Warframe, a TL;DR version:

Chassis

Helmet

Systems

Warframe BP

 

That made me smile, didn't realize that joke was possible when i did the title.

 

You win one free interwebs for today sir.

[Tengu-musume]

Yes, but that is derailing from the main point which he was supporting. We need to reward and encourage constructive feedback, discourage negative blind hate and rants bashing a change or feature.

Yeah sure, tell that to KrashOmnis who seems to like being extreme in his replies or something.

[rangeless]

I know this is stepping out of boundaries but... "real rewarding end game plz" needs to be put in every update post cuz it seems to me DE has no intention of keeping veteran players, stacking update after update until when lore arrives, it doesn't make no flippin sense....

Edited May 17, 2014 by rangeless

[Tengu-musume]

I know this is stepping out of boundaries but... "real rewarding end game plz" needs to be put in every update post cuz it seems to me DE has no intention of keeping veteran players and just stack update after update until when lore actually arrives, it doesn't make no flippin sense....

Shhhhhhh be patient!!!! It's beta :) Patience :) :)

;)

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I think a lot of the negativity stems from arguing/discussing from 2 different starting points. Let me focus on the commonly used phrase "X is useless at high levels". These are generalizations to give a picture of what I am talking about and not meant to represent either sides position. I can't use who I want to use its not fun.

Camp A: DE you changed X making it useless after lvl 45. The damage/utility is now pointless. X is ruined for high lvl play.

Camp B: please nerf X some more. It trivializes all enemies until lvl 45. The newest boss is lvl 41 and we just walk right over him. Their is no challenge it's not fun.

These two camps will never be able to agree on anything because they desire two entirely separate and desperate outcomes. We need a little more clarity of vision. DE seems to know what they want to make but the community doesn't seem to clear on it.

[Hammithimmis]

Camp A: DE you changed X making it useless after lvl 45. The damage/utility is now pointless. X is ruined for high lvl play.

Camp B: please nerf X some more. It trivializes all enemies until lvl 45. The newest boss is lvl 41 and we just walk right over him. Their is no challenge it's not fun.

These two camps will never be able to agree on anything because they desire two entirely separate and desperate outcomes. We need a little more clarity of vision. DE seems to know what they want to make but the community doesn't seem to clear on it.

 

I would argue this "clarity of vision" will never be achieved (currently) because both sides are right about their situations.  It not their fault; a player just happens to fall on one side or the other depending on how long they've played the game.

 

What DE should do about this (and I'll hope you agree this is a problem) has been discussed in other threads, and I won't rant on about it and derail this one.

 

But since you asked for a mixed bag:

 

Positives:  Wonderful visuals ( the wow factor for many new players is incredible), amazing variety and number of game modes/types (Void, Derelict, Def, Surv, etc) beautiful maps, a team of developers that responds and is connected to the community (one of the most underrated factors keeping veterans in, I think)

 

Things I want DE to work on:  AI, moving from numbers to skill, power fixes, lore

[KrashOmnis]

Called me a straw man

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

You misrepresented the original point, and engaged in a classic straw man fallacy.

 

This is the perfect example of what I brought up in my first post, people do not place importance on being logical.  Much criticism, whether it is directed towards a game, or in this case, at me personally, is not very useful because it is not based in reality or facts, but on how the game, or what I said makes you feel.

 

Your offense probably stems from the fact that you FEEL that you have been very logical, but upon examination, the evidence says otherwise.  Sorry for pointing it out so directly, but it must be done when the logical fallacy is so very obvious, and this forum is often lacking in logic and directness.

[Darkfreack]

Shhhhhhh be patient!!!! It's beta :) Patience :) :)

;)

 

Okay, from this point on, you are on my avoid list. You have proven to me 3 times you really aren't going to change that snarky attitude. You are being upsupportive and seem to be here mainly to troll and derail this topic.

 

I think a lot of the negativity stems from arguing/discussing from 2 different starting points. Let me focus on the commonly used phrase "X is useless at high levels". These are generalizations to give a picture of what I am talking about and not meant to represent either sides position. I can't use who I want to use its not fun.

Camp A: DE you changed X making it useless after lvl 45. The damage/utility is now pointless. X is ruined for high lvl play.

Camp B: please nerf X some more. It trivializes all enemies until lvl 45. The newest boss is lvl 41 and we just walk right over him. Their is no challenge it's not fun.

These two camps will never be able to agree on anything because they desire two entirely separate and desperate outcomes. We need a little more clarity of vision. DE seems to know what they want to make but the community doesn't seem to clear on it.

 

 

There are 2 sides to this coin, which will be hitting either side every time. I hope that by the time the relays are out and some more detailed story and lore are presented, this game should be on a more leveled skill to power ratio. Thats just wishful thinking for me but its a hope and goal none the less.

[Unibot]

I am not against changes, everything changes. I am against DE blindly obey nerf cryiers whithout thinking of what they are doing.

People cry nerf - DE implement nerf. And they don't even say why it was neccesary, they just do it. They don't say what is the benifit of the change, they just do it and do it on behalf of nerf cryers.

Warframes lose their unique specialities.

Every warframe exceled in a certain area(most of them), this however soon won't be an issue and the real difference between them will be looks and ability FX.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Unibot

[Darkfreack]

I am not against changes, everything changes. I am against DE blindly obey nerf cryiers whithout thinking of what they are doing.

People cry nerf - DE implement nerf. And they don't even say why it was neccesary, they just do it. They don't say what is the benifit of the change, they just do it and do it on behalf of nerf cryers.

Warframes lose their unique specialities.

Every warframe exceled in a certain area(most of them), this however soon won't be an issue and the real difference between them will be looks and ability FX.

 

Do you really understand what the term balance means?

 

The frames that have need or receive a nerf is because they excel far to much in a particular area. Throwing that ability into the godmode area, when we have a frame that does "godmode" damage or defenses it removes all challenge in the game. By providing said nerf, is to drastically down scale them so it may require some skill to operate.

 

The following example is not true to everyone but it has happened a ton of times.

Frost Snowglobe: There have been many users seeing a frost stand in an area and just idle from time to time just spamming SG to provide bullet wall to defend said location.

Fix: Limit the godmode properties of the skill so it has forced limitations so it will require timing and multicasting to provide extreme levels of protection.

 

Did this solve the issue, partly. Will more work be done to fix this? Of course.

 

Trinity Blessing: Users have had trinitys come to a game and just provide damage immunity in survival/defense missions removing all changes of death from occurring.

Fix: Limit the damage negation to a certain percentile based on the urgency of the situation. Thus removing total spamming of the skill, here by removing the unable to fail state.

 

Did this solve the issue, yes. Will more work be done to fix this? Of course, there are still loopholes and skill is on the weaker side on extreme levels.

 

(Even better, I'll go there)

RHINO IRON SKIN: It provided a set time of total damage immunity, providing 100%, zero chances to die in this form.

Fix: Make it absorb damage of ### amount, remove timer so its not time bound.

 

Did this solve the issue, of hell yes it did. Will more work be done to fix this? Possibly, damage cap is rather high until extreme levels where it is nothing but 2 sec of immunity, before 1 sec of death.

 

In the end balance needs to be achieved, the issue is where is that balanced targeted for. My answer is the mid-game, where it is so small that no one really considers it.

 

 

Edit: Added styles to make key text pop more.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Darkfreack