Is Warframe A Really Pvp Game?

[Hexerin]

>PvP in Warframe

 

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I agree. PvP is great, but lets not let it hamper the other half of WF.

 

Conclave gameplay is balanced?

Until recently you had God-mode Trinity. Still have Rhinos capable of spamming iron skin. Perma-Invis Loki (which with the right energy colours you can barely even see the shimmer) and weapons that can one shot a frame with 1000+ shields and health.

The extreme balancing needsmakes PvP extremely difficult to implement.

Its never been the focus to make WF PvP based.

PvP eventually, But not the focus. We have it way earlier then we would have.

I always said I don't give to shakes about PvP as long as nothing is locked behind a PvP wall.  No rewards, no mods (unless they are PvP only mods and useless outside of PvP), no weapons, no gear, heck even no customizables (except maybe a few badges). 

And in my opinion focusing on PvP would make warframe get lost in the herd.  Too many PvP focused games not enough coop.  The opinion that PvP is the only possible end game is pretty short sighted, and frankly wrong.

 

For example look how many hours people clock in single player games.  The only game I have any play time roughly approaching what I put in this is Skyrim.  No PvP, no multiplayer, and hundreds of hours of playtime.  This game hasn't even been fleshed out yet.  It's technical end is pretty polished (lots of bugs still to fix), but it's content is still definitly Beta.  You have frame rebalancing followed by what I can only imagine is going to be weapon or mod rebalancing, and a very intriguing if somewhat empty Lore.

[VegetableBasket]

I agree. PvP is great, but lets not let it hamper the other half of WF.

 

Conclave gameplay is balanced?

Until recently you had God-mode Trinity. Still have Rhinos capable of spamming iron skin. Perma-Invis Loki (which with the right energy colours you can barely even see the shimmer) and weapons that can one shot a frame with 1000+ shields and health.

The extreme balancing needsmakes PvP extremely difficult to implement.

Its never been the focus to make WF PvP based.

PvP eventually, But not the focus. We have it way earlier then we would have.

1. Blessing didn't work the same in PvP as it did in PvE for a bit before it was nerfed. There was a while where it did have the same function though, even then, Trinity is slow and if you get the energy before her she can't cast blessing. It's nerfed now so there's no point in trying to use it as evidence that conclave is imbalanced.

2. Iron skin is strong but it only absorbs so much damage and once again, you need energy to use it. Rhino has the biggest hitbox, too, and you go on to say weapons can do thousands of damage, so this seems like a null enough point to me.

3. I can see Loki with black energy and the whole "shimmering cloak" thing is in a ton of shooters and it's just your responsibility to keep an eye out for it, it's totally visible, and it's not permanent by any means, and Loki is really squishy, and you need energy to use it. He also has no offensive abilities so that is a tradeoff worth considering too.

4. You can block any hitscan weapon and you can dodge any non hitscan weapon. The few one-shot-ish weapons have a really slow fire rate, like in most shooters, so the drawback to using them already exists. Players move really fast so they're a bit harder to be successful with than spray and pray weapons.

Anyways this is starting to look like a conclave feedback thread. Point being, it's not as broken as you think, play some rounds and use your brain and you'll realize it's just a highly tactical twitch shooter that no one wants to exist for some reason.

Edited May 21, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Mastikator2]

1. There is a reason an online game doesn't have game endings / credits for beating the game etc. 

2. DE merely tossed in Conclave to cater to players wanting PVP. Warframe is intended to be a PVE game ever since its birth. PVP is only an add-on to the main dish. 

3. Are you suggesting for different PVP game modes? So as to make Warframe PVE and PVP available? Where players even play as the Grineer? 

1. K.

2. Yes people wanted PVP and they added PVP. Kudos to DE.

3. Not suggesting anything, suggestions belong in the suggestion forum, discussions (like this) belongs here.

 

 

Funny because I've built every weapon, frame, leveled them, built a dojo more or less by myself and a friend, with all the current rooms, reserched everything, and yet I've never touched Conclaive. Ever. Nor do I have any intention too.

You know why? Because I play the game for...wait for it....fun! I find enjoyment in playing the game, which is kinda the point of playing a game right?

Really? Playing an unlosable match against AI a hundred times in a row with no relevant reward is fun? Maybe you have different taste than me. Maybe it's because my ego is so huge that I can only get enjoyment out of a game if I have a chance to lose.

 

Edit-

 

So far the main objection to PVP has been that:

1. I am wrong and it's fun to play even if you've done everything. This is of course subjective and I can't argue against it. But I don't believe I am alone in how I feel. I do believe a lot of players have actually left the game because of this (and the admittedly poor state of PVP). Of course we don't hear from them because they're out doing something else.

2. Warframe was never intended for PVP. But guess what, the internet wasn't intended for people to play games, pay their taxes, buy stuff, do their banking, watch pr0n, watch youtube videos of cats. USA spy satellites weren't intended to be used for GPS. Sometimes you find an even better application than an invention was originally intended for. I believe this is true for warframe, even if warframe wasn't intended for PVP it has amazing PVP potential, better than many popular PVP games like COD.

3. PVP is unbalanced and arbitrary. I'll admit this is true, but to those of you voicing this complaint let me ask you this: if it wasn't true, if PVP was balanced and interesting, would you play it then? If not then why does it matter if it's balanced or not. If you would then I'm sorry to break it to you but you're a pro-PVP player. You're in my side, welcome to the team.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Mastikator2

[StinkyPygmy]

1. Blessing didn't work the same in PvP as it did in PvE for a bit before it was nerfed. There was a while where it did have the same function though, even then, Trinity is slow and if you get the energy before her she can't cast blessing. It's nerfed now so there's no point in trying to use it as evidence that conclave is imbalanced.

2. Iron skin is strong but it only absorbs so much damage and once again, you need energy to use it. Rhino has the biggest hitbox, too, and you go on to say weapons can do thousands of damage, so this seems like a null enough point to me.

3. I can see Loki with black energy and the whole "shimmering cloak" thing is in a ton of shooters and it's just your responsibility to keep an eye out for it, it's totally visible, and it's not permanent by any means, and Loki is really squishy, and you need energy to use it. He also has no offensive abilities so that is a tradeoff worth considering too.

4. You can block any hitscan weapon and you can dodge any non hitscan weapon. The few one-shot-ish weapons have a really slow fire rate, like in most shooters, so the drawback to using them already exists. Players move really fast so they're a bit harder to be successful with than spray and pray weapons.

Anyways this is starting to look like a conclave feedback thread. Point being, it's not as broken as you think, play some rounds and use your brain and you'll realize it's just a highly tactical twitch shooter that no one wants to exist for some reason.

Yes there are small ways around many of the issues. But I don't know of any PvP based games that end in two seconds. They normally aren't designed to simulate a "pistols at dawn" scenario. It doesn't changed the fact that its a very hard balancing act that is pointless to focus on as things are now. The new player experience would be crushed under the weight of PvP if focus was suddenly switched.

[XAN3MK]

How can I not be more wrong? It is my opinion that the interface and game is perfect for PvP, as a fan of PvP games. 

 

How do you know what it is or is not intended to be? Do you work for this company? 

 

Your attempts of factual disposition do not make your position stronger.

 

What you fail to account for is that PvP is valuable to this game and company. PvP play doesnt require additional content. It only needs a few playgrounds to play in. When PvP is implemented in this game, I personally would never play PvE again, unless I wanted a new toy for PvP. Deny and fight it all you want, it will be in the game. It makes sense from a gameplay angle, for the growth and sustainability of the game, and for the development team. NO ONE is more demanding than PvE players. Just take a look at any sub-forum of this board. 

 

It was simply a reply to your statement that PvP is the logical evolution of the game. It is not, and there is a decent amount of online games with a very deep and well developed content cycle to support endless PvE progression.

 

I'm just stating what the game was pitched/presented us until the Conclave happened, which was result of the massive cry for some form of PvP in the game.

 

What you fail to account is that the statement is nothing more than you own opinion and nothing more. The game was fine and will be fine if PvP is never developed any further than its current form. Yes, PvP does require further development, even more so if it is not kept disconnected from the PvE part of the game.

 

Yes, I agree, we are demanding, some of us actually hold things to higher standards and actually expect well developped and challenging conent instead of few rooms to beat our heads against each other.

[StinkyPygmy]

I always said I don't give to shakes about PvP as long as nothing is locked behind a PvP wall.  No rewards, no mods (unless they are PvP only mods and useless outside of PvP), no weapons, no gear, heck even no customizables (except maybe a few badges). 

And in my opinion focusing on PvP would make warframe get lost in the herd.  Too many PvP focused games not enough coop.  The opinion that PvP is the only possible end game is pretty short sighted, and frankly wrong.

 

For example look how many hours people clock in single player games.  The only game I have any play time roughly approaching what I put in this is Skyrim.  No PvP, no multiplayer, and hundreds of hours of playtime.  This game hasn't even been fleshed out yet.  It's technical end is pretty polished (lots of bugs still to fix), but it's content is still definitly Beta.  You have frame rebalancing followed by what I can only imagine is going to be weapon or mod rebalancing, and a very intriguing if somewhat empty Lore.

^^^ Basically it comes down to, and I hate to say it but here it is. Beta.

Massive development still in progress. PvE is no where near finished and many PvE loving players are also dying for more of a challenge beyond 40min survival. More challenge is coming, PvP is coming later. It would be silly to ignore the 90% of content currently in the game that isn't close to finished to add end game PvP.

Edited May 21, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Mastikator2]

[snip]. But I don't know of any PvP based games that end in two seconds. [snip]

Just off the top of my head.

Counter Strike (all versions)

Battlefield (all versions)

Unreal Tournament (with instagib enabled)

Dive kick

[(PSN)Count_Dante]

I apologise for the passive aggressive dig. fair enough, it was unwarrented. I let my frustration at the consistent PvP vs PvE issue being brought up get the better of me.

However I never stated its one or the other, but one can only be effectively worked on at a time with the current resources DE appears to have Why take an end game feature and pool resources into it now when the game isnt even close to finished. The issue is here is that so many players have the impression that WF is nearly completed. Hence people consistently asking where their end game PvP is. 

 

I disagree here. I would be surprised if DE is organized, as a development company, without various departments. No reason to think that PvE and PvP is not or can not be developed in tandem. 

 

From a pure business standpoint, I would be shocked if PvP was not put in place more than it is now simply because PvP require so little new content. PvP players are much easier to please than PvE. I am not sure for PC land as a PS4 player, but in the Conclaves, you can see PvP players making their own rules. If I am playing against someone using the broken mods and mechanics in PvP, I flat quit. I send a quick message to say why i did and hopefully they will also follow the "gentlemen's rules". 

 

I personally think this game is far from finished and has been developed to allow for numerous different play aspects as they go and to never really BE finished. I would love to see the game stay similar to what it is, earning my PvE twinkles in PvE and then take it to PvP to try out my builds and to have some competition. I am also a firm believer that if you do not want to participate in PvP, you should not have to. 

 

I know for at least me, eventually, I will have collected my treats and hoarded all the stuffs. And then what? For a more-than-trivial segment of the Warframe players, I would expect this is true. Why have all these twinklies if I cant swing my Ichors into someone else's face?!? :)

 

I think PvE players worry about PvP as they see it as PvP taking away from PvE content. Content is so crucial to PvE enjoyment, I can see this. But this game and interface can easily allow for both. It could be argued that the Rails are them dipping their toes into the PvP content. Perhaps the next step is real life players being able to protect rails. 

 

Who knows...

[Zagrax]

You don't need a ton of mods or weapons to master pvp though..all you need is a maxed reflection and just run around daring anyone with an OP gun to try and shoot you.

[Mastikator2]

You don't need a ton of mods or weapons to master pvp though..all you need is a maxed reflection and just run around daring anyone with an OP gun to try and shoot you.

Plenty of stuff beats reflection. Of course all of them are as cheesy as reflection. Reflection isn't godmode.

[(PSN)Count_Dante]

I always said I don't give to shakes about PvP as long as nothing is locked behind a PvP wall.  No rewards, no mods (unless they are PvP only mods and useless outside of PvP), no weapons, no gear, heck even no customizables (except maybe a few badges). 

And in my opinion focusing on PvP would make warframe get lost in the herd.  Too many PvP focused games not enough coop.  The opinion that PvP is the only possible end game is pretty short sighted, and frankly wrong.

 

For example look how many hours people clock in single player games.  The only game I have any play time roughly approaching what I put in this is Skyrim.  No PvP, no multiplayer, and hundreds of hours of playtime.  This game hasn't even been fleshed out yet.  It's technical end is pretty polished (lots of bugs still to fix), but it's content is still definitly Beta.  You have frame rebalancing followed by what I can only imagine is going to be weapon or mod rebalancing, and a very intriguing if somewhat empty Lore.

 

I dont think you would find a PvP fan that would disagree with you here. I do not need rewards that PvE play cant get me. 

 

Again, I dont see where it would ever be a "PvP focus". I get the concerns, PvE players need content. As a company it will never be PvP > PvE or vice versa,

[Kurnuttaja]

I wish the PvP side was at least somehow expanded, conclaves are by far the most meh PvP Ive seen in any game so far. 2v2 shooter, just cmon.

[StinkyPygmy]

Just off the top of my head.

Counter Strike (all versions)

Battlefield (all versions)

Unreal Tournament (with instagib enabled)

Dive kick

Frames are extremely diverse and when facing eachother some frames hold more advantages in PvP then others. 

In the list you mentioned, everyone is on equal footing (more or less) and there are more then just death match game modes. They are almost exclusively PvP designed games. If people were crying out for PvE with games of that nature I would be crying out for PvP to be the focus. Because thats the whole focus in that context. Not exactly the best  or fairest comparison to WF as it is now.

 

 

 

I disagree here. I would be surprised if DE is organized, as a development company, without various departments. No reason to think that PvE and PvP is not or can not be developed in tandem. 

 

From a pure business standpoint, I would be shocked if PvP was not put in place more than it is now simply because PvP require so little new content. PvP players are much easier to please than PvE. I am not sure for PC land as a PS4 player, but in the Conclaves, you can see PvP players making their own rules. If I am playing against someone using the broken mods and mechanics in PvP, I flat quit. I send a quick message to say why i did and hopefully they will also follow the "gentlemen's rules". 

 

I personally think this game is far from finished and has been developed to allow for numerous different play aspects as they go and to never really BE finished. I would love to see the game stay similar to what it is, earning my PvE twinkles in PvE and then take it to PvP to try out my builds and to have some competition. I am also a firm believer that if you do not want to participate in PvP, you should not have to. 

 

I know for at least me, eventually, I will have collected my treats and hoarded all the stuffs. And then what? For a more-than-trivial segment of the Warframe players, I would expect this is true. Why have all these twinklies if I cant swing my Ichors into someone else's face?!? :)

 

I think PvE players worry about PvP as they see it as PvP taking away from PvE content. Content is so crucial to PvE enjoyment, I can see this. But this game and interface can easily allow for both. It could be argued that the Rails are them dipping their toes into the PvP content. Perhaps the next step is real life players being able to protect rails. 

 

Who knows...

You're right DE does have separate departments to handle things. But from what I can gather (especially being indie developers) they dont have the masses of man power and resources to work on everything at once like the big boys do. if they did then Its very likely threads like this wouldn't exist. because they would be being worked on in tadem. And for the most part I agree. Its just the crying out for PvP now and DE to have it all magically finished that grinds many players gears.

 

Once again, apologies for dig earlier. I have just seen this time and time again and its getting out of hand how impatient some players can be. Between this and constant complaints about nerfing/buffing its all a bit ridiculous. Nevertheless you did not deserve that. 

[Mastikator2]

Frames are extremely diverse and when facing eachother some frames hold more advantages in PvP then others. 

In the list you mentioned, everyone is on equal footing (more or less) and there are more then just death match game modes. They are almost exclusively PvP designed games. If people were crying out for PvE with games of that nature I would be crying out for PvP to be the focus. Because thats the whole focus in that context. Not exactly the best  or fairest comparison to WF as it is now.[snip]

If it wasn't so imbalanced, if it was very balanced (a feat which would be easy to do and take very little effort). Would you play in the conclaves then?

[StinkyPygmy]

If it wasn't so imbalanced, if it was very balanced (a feat which would be easy to do and take very little effort). Would you play in the conclaves then?

DE struggles to keep the player base happy as it is when it comes to balancing weapons and frames in relation to the PvE content, let alone PvP. Just look at the recent changes to Nova and Trin and the uproar its caused, plus the endless back catalog of complaints in relation to nerfing and buffing. There is a history of DE going back and restoring something they have balanced (which is objective) simply because the most vocal players have complained endlessly. So I still maintain that PvP in WF is a hard thing to balance for. If in the future PvP was worked on and made to be viable, then sure, I'd play it from time to time. Not a problem. But as for the consistent cry for it to be made a priority now I have no sympathy what so ever. In the long run WF will likely be a fairly even split between PvP and PvE. Unless DE suddenly feels they can now proritise both without letting what is so far the core of the game slide then I fully welcome the change. Until then its sinply a matter of playing the waiting game, as it were.

Edited May 21, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Psycomet]

The reason that no one plays conclaves is because it's so poorly done. One shotting OP frames can come to the conclaves and make it rain crap for everyone else is the result of DE spending .01% effort on them. I hardly believe anyone will doubt their own opinions on the forums. But just consider the possibility that people would've played pvp if it were good enough.

 

Not all pvp is about ego filling. It's also about fun. COD, TF, Unreal, name 1000 other games that have made it so big because of their pvp. And it never ends there because each new map/ weapon there means tons of new strategies employed by players that you must learn and battle anew.

 

Don't tell me you think pve is NOT ego filling! You can't be serious! Kill/Defense/survival/event leaderboards say otherwise.

 

Our perception of pvp has been ruined by the conclaves' dilapidated state. I agree that Pve content is far from over. But WF would have a lot more players joining if it had some killer pvp content (many of my gamer friends as evidenced by their show of disapproval of WF when I asked them to try WF and told them it's only pve).

[Sophax]

PvP is/was bound to happen and will be explored upon. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by [DE]Megan
Removed insults

[Mastikator2]

DE struggles to keep the player base happy as it is when it comes to balancing weapons and frames in relation to the PvE content, let alone PvP. Just look at the recent changes to Nova and Trin and the uproar its caused, plus the endless back catalog of complaints in relation to nerfing and buffing. There is a history of DE going back and restoring something they have balanced (which is objective) simply because the most vocal players have complained endlessly. So I still maintain that PvP in WF is a hard thing to balance for. If in the future PvP was worked on and made to be viable, then sure, I'd play it from time to time. Not a problem. But as for the consistent cry for it to be made a priority now I have no sympathy what so ever. In the long run WF will likely be a fairly even split between PvP and PvE. Unless DE suddenly feels they can now proritise both without letting what is so far the core of the game slide then I fully welcome the change. Until then its sinply a matter of playing the waiting game, as it were.

IMO it's as simple as rebalancing the conclave ratings on mods, frames and weapons. And disable cheating (entering arena with too much conclave rating, moving before the match starts). Keeping the stupidly broken stuff in Europe and Pluto would not take a lot of work.

Then, if we both have a penta and can easily one-shot each other then the type of skill that matters is reaction time. That really is fair and balanced, even if you wouldn't think it enjoyable it would be fair.

[(PSN)Count_Dante]

Frames are extremely diverse and when facing eachother some frames hold more advantages in PvP then others. 

In the list you mentioned, everyone is on equal footing (more or less) and there are more then just death match game modes. They are almost exclusively PvP designed games. If people were crying out for PvE with games of that nature I would be crying out for PvP to be the focus. Because thats the whole focus in that context. Not exactly the best  or fairest comparison to WF as it is now.

 

 

 

You're right DE does have separate departments to handle things. But from what I can gather (especially being indie developers) they dont have the masses of man power and resources to work on everything at once like the big boys do. if they did then Its very likely threads like this wouldn't exist. because they would be being worked on in tadem. And for the most part I agree. Its just the crying out for PvP now and DE to have it all magically finished that grinds many players gears.

 

Once again, apologies for dig earlier. I have just seen this time and time again and its getting out of hand how impatient some players can be. Between this and constant complaints about nerfing/buffing its all a bit ridiculous. Nevertheless you did not deserve that. 

 

I would agree that now is not the time for PvP development, short of fixing Conclave bugs that break it (e.g. Cant quit out). Again, it is my personal experience that PvP players tend to be more patient, at least in a PvE focused game as we have here. 

 

And as you mentioned, balance in PvP is a never-ending endeavor. Add new weapons? Balance issues. New Frames? Balance issues. But in a game like this, fine tuning is not needed for a pleasurable PvP experience. 

 

No worries, it can be a passionate subject for those who are passionate about a game. My contention is always that is never has to be PvE > PvP or vice versa. The PvP can live right along with the PvE and requires less content than PvE, making it a logical development as this caters to a segment of the playbase for much less creativity needed. Seems like a no-brainer to me. 

[Habataki]

Yes.

Yes it is.

 

And here is why. Once you've acquired all the mods and built all the weapons and warframes and leveled them up and built your own dojo with all the rooms and researched all the things there is really nothing left to do. Nothing but leave or play in the conclaves and hone your skill.

So really, the PVE is just a build up for PVP.

 

The problem is that 99% of the development effort is spent on the part of the game that can be finished, while 1% is spent on the part that can be milked forever.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I got almost everything in the game, and the damn thought about doing PvP never cross my mind for once.

[(PSN)Count_Dante]

It was simply a reply to your statement that PvP is the logical evolution of the game. It is not, and there is a decent amount of online games with a very deep and well developed content cycle to support endless PvE progression.

 

I'm just stating what the game was pitched/presented us until the Conclave happened, which was result of the massive cry for some form of PvP in the game.

 

What you fail to account is that the statement is nothing more than you own opinion and nothing more. The game was fine and will be fine if PvP is never developed any further than its current form. Yes, PvP does require further development, even more so if it is not kept disconnected from the PvE part of the game.

 

Yes, I agree, we are demanding, some of us actually hold things to higher standards and actually expect well developped and challenging conent instead of few rooms to beat our heads against each other.

 

And there are a decent amount of games that have both, what is your point?

 

NO ONE cries like PvE players. No one. But lets talk about the massive "cry. The key word is "massive". Enough people stated this was what they wanted. YOU dont so it is wrong? You sound like a child. 

 

Just as all your comments are only your opinions, no matter how factual and absolute as you would like them to sound. 

 

If you do not want PvP, why do you care if it only consists of a few rooms to bang our heads against each other? Why do PvE players care what happens in PvP play? PvP players certainly dont care about the inverse.

[Akuarius]

HAHAHAHA Sorry.. But all those mindclosed PvP haters are just sad... PvP is just a feature, if you are too carebear or too afraid to PvP just dont join, thats all.

[Warriorrogue]

*raises AkLexes to head*

No, this is most certainly a PvE game, in design, appearance, and UI, IMO.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I dont think you would find a PvP fan that would disagree with you here. I do not need rewards that PvE play cant get me. 

 

Again, I dont see where it would ever be a "PvP focus". I get the concerns, PvE players need content. As a company it will never be PvP > PvE or vice versa,

I honestly think a lot of PvP people would be happy with it as side content with no benefit. It's the argument that PvP is the only end game that through this thread off. The issue for me, is that I don't want to PvP and if your force PvP content as part of core game play and not some side thing. Now what has been suggested that I did like was a Left4Dead style PvP where you can just and and control normal mobs. It feels to me that is more a direction they are headed in with the dark sectors.