De. You Can't Ignore This Any More. (Penta, Ogris And Angstrum Feedback)

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

GOOSSFAAHBAA...ITS BALANCE! Shhhh the devs are sleeping

[OptimumBow0]

NOT ONE PvE ENEMY A.I HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT BALANCE..

Really? Because I get called a son of a groot every time I hop into Warframe.

melee2.0 is a messup.. no complexity< poor character modelling (ps4) and a nasty attitude to paying customers...yes this going to end well..

Look man, the problems with heavy weaponry in general can be fixed, and I'm sure DE knows about those problems because I see a thread about it every couple of days. Also, Support can do many things, but they can't adjust the game to your whims. You'd do better to provide some constructive feedback in another topic rather than complain in this thread..

 

Speaking of which, would you like to explain how your Jat Kittag and hatred for Melee 2.0 relates to a thread about ammunition? 

 

On topic - infinite ammo is no fun, I want a reason to use my secondary, and let's make Ammo Drum useful!

[BritishBob]

GOOSSFAAHBAA...ITS BALANCE! Shhhh the devs are sleeping

 

 

Dude, the only thing you've contributed to this thread is the fact you're butthurt over your rocket hammer because an outdated and underused melee system was replaced by a brand new system. So new that changes are still being made to it...

 

Onto the ammo situation. The only time I've every struggled for ammo is with my Boar/Boar Prime. If I find my self struggling for ammo I tend to mod for mutators or carry a ammo pack or two.The penta, ogris and angstrum have silly ammo caps, however I think the bigger issue with them is the overwhelmingly large amount of damage they do.

 

 

For me it comes down to a loadout thing.If I am running a poor ammo efficiency weapon for primary carry a hard hitting good efficiency secondary. If I run explosives I carry a weapon that wreaks in close combat. I'm quite sure where the downside to infinite ammo is... Unless you like immersion and like a Dead Space Scenario. I don't have too much of an issue atm with ammo, and it's the least of my concerns as far as game balance goes atm.

Edited May 27, 2014 by BritishBob

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

optimum and british i accept your points and to answer about jat kittag on ammunition was due explaning my situation and it slipped over to the jat issue..

I admit after some push back at least one of the devs has started to explain a bit to me and i apreciate that more than i will tell him..lol..

 

I am not shy as we all can see but i really did love playing warframe and it hurts to find ones labor taken and altered so maybe that explains a bit maybe not but i am willing to listen and offer good suggestions despite my rowdy start on the forum..

[(PSN)MicLloydo]

those weapons need to be adjusted...maybe DE could possibly refund forma/reactors for items that are being "adjusted" to much that some players may not like them anymore. the amount of dps those guns put out considering the ammo pool is completely bonkers. even if they lowered the ammo pool to a 10 round max with an ammo mutation players still wouldnt run out of ammo. sure DE will do a fair assessment on them. if anyone felt the need to even forma/catalyst those weapons i cant but wonder why they felt the need. mines at 6000 dmg with neither in them can 2 shot lvl 50s np. ppl should have foresaw the fact they would get adjusted sooner or later.

[RawGritz]

Burst fire is your friend on some of the hose weapons, especially Karak and Grakata. Conserve ammo, Tenno.

 

[(PSN)RedGarnetz]

Could we also talk about all the weapons that run out of ammo in mere seconds? You know... Might be as important, if not more... Just saying (typing?). Or do you also want some kind of "durability bar" for melee weapons, so that they break when you use them too much? sounds fair too, doesn't it? and then a durability for shields. They regen too much, don't you think?

 

Sorry... Didn't mean to insult anyone. It just baffles me that people only look at one side of the problem, and completely ignore/forget the other. again, sorry for the sarcastic tone^^'.

durability bar. just when I thought I was done with that on fallout 3 lol

[Nkomo-Sama]

dude you're ruining my game. SO WHAT if they have alot of ammo?

[Seele]

Burst fire is your friend on some of the hose weapons, especially Karak and Grakata. Conserve ammo, Tenno.

525 Karak rounds does not even compare to the destruction possible with 525 Ogris rockets or Penta grenades.

What could you possibly need 525 rockets for?

 

You're not wrong, but the issue here was never players being unable to conserve ammo, rather the opposite in some cases.

[RawGritz]

525 Karak rounds does not even compare to the destruction possible with 525 Ogris rockets or Penta grenades.

What could you possibly need 525 rockets for?

 

You're not wrong, but the issue here was never players being unable to conserve ammo, rather the opposite in some cases.

525 is a lot but there are some caveats. Easy to hurt yourself and travel time are a couple. Being able to easily kill yourself and having to spend a revive, is a lot.

Edited May 27, 2014 by RawGritz

[killacam8806]

Its a "PVE" game,stop worrying about what other people are using..I take it since you made this post that you dont use those said weapons so just leave it be Honestly when do you ever really run out of ammo with any weapon besides when running high level defense and survival. I love this game to death but people seem to always forget that this is a PvE game and you should want powerful weapons a frames in your squad in case things get crazy,but instead they complain that others are running strong weapons...makes no sense to me at all...

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

agreed killacam8806! just turn up the enemies on the gamegrid if my weapon is too powerful and put a handicap system onPvP for balance

[PeterKha]

I actually wouldn't mind if they dropped down the max ammo for explosive weapons but if that happens then I'd want it so that they have a magazine capacity of 1 since that's how most games design their rocket launchers. You shoot 1 then reload and shoot another which would still make it a strong weapon but not so easily spammable like how it is now with 5 rockets, that's a lot of enemies dead without having to reload

[Eyeless]

The main thing to take away from my suggestion is that primary ammo is one pickup. That way ammo you need is always dropping. The only reason to use an ammo restore would be when someone is too stubborn to use melee or their secondary.

 

It wouldn't be as big as you're thinking and some would get buffed. This is what I'd do for each rough category:

 

Launchers: between 50

Bows and snipers: 80

Heavy shotguns (Hek, Tigris): 120

Heavy rifles (Latron, Grinlock, etc.) and medium shotguns (Strun): 150

Auto shotguns (Sobek, Boar): 200

Medium rifles (Hind, Karak, Burston): 300

HMGs (Soma, Gorgon): 500

SMGs and light rifles (Grakata, Braton) and Streamers (Phage, Amprex, Flux): 600

 

Super Heavy Pistols: 50

Heavy pistols (Lex, Stug): 100

Medium pistols (Latron, Bolto, Revolvers): 150

Auto Pistols: 300

 

Obviously I'd do a lot of playtesting, since it looks good to me on paper but I don't know how it would play until I tried it.

 

Ahhh, I see your point now. Sorry for blowing up on ya, now that you've explained it more I don't think I'd mind that. 

 

 

What does the development time on this accomplish exactly?

 

Can't be weapon usage... If you have the weapon, you doubtless have Mutation Mods.

So a player gets to go from an infinite supply of ammunition to a near infinite supply of ammunition ? OK.

 

Unless the devs cut the number down to 10 or 20, discussions about ammo are irrelevant.

 

Sure, limited ammunition for heavy ordinance fits from a thematic standpoint... But we're mechanically augmented space ninja who rely on stealth and, as such, probably shouldn't have them in the first place.

 

It's just one more inconsistency amongst a sea of them...

 

Why does Trinity have a lobster tail but no matching claws?

Why are Frost's shields affected in icy environs when he uses ice as a weapon?... For that matter, why does a master of Ice attacks even need a coat?

Why aren't we having to deal with perma-death?

Why do we attain more inertia from rapidly swinging light melee weapons as opposed to rapidly swinging heavy ones?

 

The list goes on....

 

Please know that I don't really care one whit whether they change the ammunition count for these weapons... It's irrelevant to me what they do with them as I don't use them often.

What is relevant to me is the opportunity cost.

 

I always marvel at what we choose to get animated about and ask the devs to spend their time on when their time is obviously in short supply.

 

What gets pushed back to feed irrelevancies like this?

That's what I want to know.

 

Someone on here gets it...

 

You know, before today I would of disagreed, but after running into someone who did nothing but use the Ogris to kill everything, it truly needs a good nerfing and a major re-balancing.

 

How is that different from someone using a Soma or Boltor on something low level and just spraying everywhere before you can get a shot or swing off from an unleveled weapon? At higher level play there's plenty of enemies spawning for everyone to kill, not to mention the Ogris and Penta are limited by player perception and proper circumstance.

 

Whereas the weapons everyone loves to cry about more such as the Soma and Boltor Prime require no such conscious effort to take your time to aim and consider terrain angles/enemy position in the hands of most players and get equal results if you put Shred on and can spread your shots properly. 

 

This is as close to asking someone 'Umad?' as I'm going to get because as far as I can tell that's the only reason you're here. 

 

Naturally if you have more to add on to this to change my views I heartily welcome it.  

[Cwierz]

agreed killacam8806! just turn up the enemies on the gamegrid if my weapon is too powerful and put a handicap system onPvP for balance

You obviously don't understand the problem at all. Its literally paining me to read your posts.

You do realize, that the game hasn't suddenly been "getting balanced" because they introduced pvp right? Are you dense? or just don't know what you are talking about. Rhino and Volt were once balanced long before conclaves were introduced. 

 

The problem with your logic is that you don't want to fix the problem, you just want to ignore it. 

You don't understand the merits of a balanced game, so you write it off as complaining or jealously, further obstructing the well being of the game simply because you really. do. not. know. what. you. are. talking. about. 

 

The fact of the matter is, it is unfair that some weapons have to actively manage their ammo usage, however three of the top tier weapons have nigh-infinite amounts of it. Its a simple change, send one developer to run some calculations based on damage and fire rate to determine the appropriate ammo count a weapon should have. 

 

People on these forums who spew uninformed opinions of the masses are serving to drag the game down with them. Wondering why the game is "going to hell" not realizing that they actively oppose people trying to stop that. It annoys me to no end, to see people complain about burnout in this game, or lack of meaningful endgame, but immediately do a 180 and denounce any form of balancing that isn't a buff, never going to realize how they are interconnected, or the sheer stupidity.

[ScorpDK]

Personally, I would say "get rid of all ammo entirely, just have a recharging energy bar, or make reloading the only problem with large capacity / destructive potential (like Ogris reloads after every rocket, etc)....

 

 

But to not throw the entire ammo system out of the window, go for the logical approach - ammo capacity and pickup count depend on what weapon you got equipped - remove shotgun/rifle/sniper ammo and replace it with "primary ammo", as you cannot equip 2 different primary weapons anyhow.

By doing that, you can tell the Dex Furis to have a pickup count of around 50-100, and a sizable capacity (800+ rounds?), while the Ogris would perhaps have a pickup of 4-8, with a capacity of around 40-80, or the Bows picking up 5-10 arrows, with a capacity of 50-100.

 

It makes more sense to assume that the Tenno use a build-in matter converter to turn the picked-up ammo into usable ammo for their weapon, rather than get ammo from them that they never used for anything.

[Rakosta_Kai]

OK...

Let's go with the idea being touted in this thread asserting that Heavy Ordinance weapons need to have their ammo capacity drastically reduced.

 

Said user replaces their least impactful mod with an ammo mutation mod... Now what?

 

Or said user activates a Team Ammo Restore node... Now what?

 

Absolutely nothing...

 

Players will still be able to achieve the exact same ROF with those ridiculous weapons that they are right now with little to no impact to the weapons damage output.

 

If we were talking about drastically increasing reload, we'd be talking about something impactful.

If we were really talking about gainfully removing the power creep in weapons... We'd be talking about removing the access to rainbow builds for all weapons.

 

Ya'll don't want to have those conversations though...

 

Instead, you folks are complaining to have something completely irrelevant changed while trotting out terms like "logic" and "good of the game "... Some of you are even calling others stupid in the bargain.

 

The irony in that amuses the heck out of me.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it here...

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[OptimumBow0]

-snip-

I think this is a thread for people who actually use the weapons, not a rally for nerf-herders (5 brownie points) who dislike other people using explosive weaponry. Now, why am I 95% sure the "PvE" argument doesn't work here? The OP isn't ranting, and he's actually conciliatory at the end. Therefore, this isn't a reactionary forumer responding to a situation in which an Ogris-wielding-Rhino ruined his game.

 

Also, I personally have the Angstrum, and as much as I love it, I think it would feel more like a heavy-hitting secondary if it didn't have 210 rounds. All that ammo makes each shot feel meaningless, like just petty explosion after petty explosion. No one even needs that much ammo. I want it to feel like every shot counts for something.

 

Reducing it would also, for me, justify that insane base damage.

-snip-

This is what happens: Ammo mods becomes useful.

 

Like how Duration became useful on Nova.

 

Is that bad?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Penta, Ogris and now Angstrum.

What do these 3 weapons have in common?

They all have essentially infinite ammo, and they shoot explosives.

DE, I have been patient. I know you're still building the game, but this has gone on long enough.

Reduce the ammo count of these weapons to anywhere less than 50, change the Sniper Ammo to Speical Ammo, and have these weapons use Speical Ammo.

Rocket launchers have a trade off. Huge firepower, but limited shots available. These have huge firepower, but unlimited shots available.

I know I shouldn't compare Warframe to other games, but I will anyway.

Halo 3 has a rocket launcher that holds 2 rockets and 2 in reserve. Fire 2, reload, fire 2, and you're done. This is obviously for PvP balancing, so I don't want that little ammo. I want a fair tradeoff. Like the one we we're supposed to have with Rhino. Extremely durable, yet slow. Except he ties the fastest frame in the game in speed. The same thing is happening here. HUGE positive ZERO negative.

If this isn't fixed by Update 14, I guess I'll just cave in and accept that a grenade/rocket launcher using rifle ammo with 210 grenades/rockets is balanced.

Also their still completely silent.

Inb4 "it'z balanced cause u can kill urself"

 

See, here's the problem with limiting rocket/whatever ammo.

 

It changes nothing. You could limit penta to a max of 5 grenades carried at any one time, ogris to two rockets, or whatever you want, and it wouldn't matter in the least.

 

Because there's ammo mutation mods. Sure slotting one of those in will require 7 more points and removing something else to put in its slot, but it's still not going to prevent anything.

Even if you disallow ammo mutation mods on explosives, there's still team ammo restores, which let a player fire their ogris until the cows come home.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[kaboomonme]

OK...

Let's go with the idea being touted in this thread asserting that Heavy Ordinance weapons need to have their ammo capacity drastically reduced.

 

Said user replaces their least impactful mod with an ammo mutation mod... Now what?

 

Or said user activates a Team Ammo Restore node... Now what?

 

Absolutely nothing...

 

Players will still be able to achieve the exact same ROF with those ridiculous weapons that they are right now with little to no impact to the weapons damage output.

 

If we were talking about drastically increasing reload, we'd be talking about something impactful.

If we were really talking about gainfully removing the power creep in weapons... We'd be talking about removing the access to rainbow builds for all weapons.

 

Ya'll don't want to have those conversations though...

 

Instead, you folks are complaining to have something completely irrelevant changed while trotting out terms like "logic" and "good of the game "... Some of you are even calling others stupid in the bargain.

 

The irony in that amuses the heck out of me.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it here...

 

Be careful what you wish for.

Even if what you are saying is true, I don't see a reason for an explosive weapon to even HAVE that much ammo. It is literally CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE to use up all of the shots in an Ogris as it stands now, unless u literally dodge every single ammo drop on the ground like landmines.

And I know I may be making a bigger deal out of this than everyone else thinks, but IMHO, player limits are important. Before the Warframe balancing plan was out, I was almost certain they would remove Stamina, Energy and Ammunition anyways. Why have those in the game? They just limit the players fun factor, since they will have to ration their ability casting.

Actually, they might as well remove Health and Shields. It limits players for having to monitor a number on their screen while they are killing things, so why not remove that? So on and so forth. (You get my point though, right?)

If DE wanted a Sandbox game, so be it. I can have plenty of fun destroying hordes of zombies with an unlimited ammo RPG, a squad of Samus clones, a pet melon and a power suit in Garry's Mod already, without all the RNG and grind-walls.

I'm sure a lot of people rant about things without considering the consequences, but in this case, I don't see what issue this suggestion brings, other than its implementation being invalidated by other existing features. Still, it doesn't harm the game in any way, and can only be a good thing. 

I'm all for re-balancing explosive weapon ammo-count. The proposed solution may not fix enough, but it's a start.

 

 

See, here's the problem with limiting rocket/whatever ammo.

 

It changes nothing. You could limit penta to a max of 5 grenades carried at any one time, ogris to two rockets, or whatever you want, and it wouldn't matter in the least.

 

Because there's ammo mutation mods. Sure slotting one of those in will require 7 more points and removing something else to put in its slot, but it's still not going to prevent anything.

Even if you disallow ammo mutation mods on explosives, there's still team ammo restores, which let a player fire their ogris until the cows come home.

I still curse the day Ammo Mutation mods were added into the game. It's arguable that Ammo Restores already existed, but they added it in anyways. Why is that?

I also almost shat myself when I heard about the implementation of Forma. I thought it would be a 1-use item, similar to Catalysts/Reactors, but when I found out it was unlimited use, I couldn't help but fear for the future.

I've gotten used to it by now, of course. Not to say I have come to like these systems, but I feel that removing player limits puts DE in a ridiculously difficult situation, and they didn't think of the consequences when implementing these.

Now, the game is ridiculously difficult to balance, and attempting to revert/change said system is nigh impossible due to players already having invested several hundreds of hours of game time and money into said systems.

Also, at your last point : At least Team Ammo Restores are limited, and require you to replenish them. It's not perfect, but it's not unlimited either.

Edited May 27, 2014 by kaboomonme

[Rakosta_Kai]

I think this is a thread for people who actually use the weapons, not a rally for nerf-herders (5 brownie points) who dislike other people using explosive weaponry. Now, why am I 95% sure the "PvE" argument doesn't work here? The OP isn't ranting, and he's actually conciliatory at the end. Therefore, this isn't a reactionary forumer responding to a situation in which an Ogris-wielding-Rhino ruined his game.

 

Also, I personally have the Angstrum, and as much as I love it, I think it would feel more like a heavy-hitting secondary if it didn't have 210 rounds. All that ammo makes each shot feel meaningless, like just petty explosion after petty explosion. No one even needs that much ammo. I want it to feel like every shot counts for something.

 

Reducing it would also, for me, justify that insane base damage.

This is what happens: Ammo mods becomes useful.

 

Like how Duration became useful on Nova.

 

Is that bad?

It's not bad...

It's irrelevant.

 

You are arguing the merits of doing a crap-ton of damage with an endless supply of ammo against the merits of doing a crap-ton of damage with an endless supply of ammo.

There is, literally, no difference.

 

One person in this thread actually commented about how the reduction would make each shot matter more...

I had a good chuckle at that one.

 

Leave off with the feel/felt commentary and tell me how this is going to improve gameplay.

Tell me how it will reduce content trivialization.

 

Tell me something other than, " I just feel that carrying that big ammo number around is wasteful on these weapons, especially when there are starving Grakatas out there that could be using that ammo instead".

Please do, because I want to know.

[SirAuron]

Penta and Angstrum have less firepower so reducing their Ammo to less than 50 would be a crime. 72 seems appropriate for Ogris.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Even if what you are saying is true, I don't see a reason for an explosive weapon to even HAVE that much ammo. It is literally CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE to use up all of the shots in an Ogris as it stands now, unless u literally dodge every single ammo drop on the ground like landmines.

And I know I may be making a bigger deal out of this than everyone else thinks, but IMHO, player limits are important. Before the Warframe balancing plan was out, I was almost certain they would remove Stamina, Energy and Ammunition anyways. Why have those in the game? They just limit the players fun factor, since they will have to ration their ability casting.

Actually, they might as well remove Health and Shields. It limits players for having to monitor a number on their screen while they are killing things, so why not remove that? So on and so forth. (You get my point though, right?)

If DE wanted a Sandbox game, so be it. I can have plenty of fun destroying hordes of zombies with an unlimited ammo RPG, a squad of Samus clones, a pet melon and a power suit in Garry's Mod already, without all the RNG and grind-walls.

I'm sure a lot of people rant about things without considering the consequences, but in this case, I don't see what issue this suggestion brings, other than its implementation being invalidated by other existing features. Still, it doesn't harm the game in any way, and can only be a good thing. 

I'm all for re-balancing explosive weapon ammo-count. The proposed solution may not fix enough, but it's a start.

 

FWIW, I agree with you...

My issue at this point is that this is a non-issue.

 

Changing ammo count or type does nothing.

 

If we want to have real discussions about player limits, this isn't the place to start.

 

Let's start with:

Attribute Stacking

Being able to put 4 different elements in the same weapon and allow them to all do damage on each shot.

 

But these aren't conversations players want to have...

 

They'd rather whistle in the dark and talk about how a lower, but easily replaceable, ammo count will make the game feel more challenging.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

I still curse the day Ammo Mutation mods were added into the game. It's arguable that Ammo Restores already existed, but they added it in anyways. Why is that?

 

 

Ammo mutation is a more convenient form of ammo restore, with the cost being a mod slot and some mod points instead of a bunch of nanospores and ferrite.

 

As for why... It should be obvious. Players don't like running out of bullets in their third person shooter. This is an arcade shoot 'em up where death flows like water, not some survival-horror game where every bullet is precious. Highly limited ammo works in some games, but it patently doesn't in a game like Warframe - which is surely why DE added ammo mutation mods to begin with. 

Like, the twin vipers are fun to use... But without ammo mutation, they simply fire too fast to actually play with since otherwise you run out of bullets.

 

I also almost shat myself when I heard about the implementation of Forma. I thought it would be a 1-use item, similar to Catalysts/Reactors, but when I found out it was unlimited use, I couldn't help but fear for the future.

I don't see how unlimited use forma is a bad thing. It gives DE more money from plat sales, it gives players the ability to further customize their gun around the playstyle they like... The only downside is that it lets players make guns more powerful, but that's a pretty weaksauce downside because players like powerful guns, and giving them an opportunity to invest more in their favorite gun is a feature, not a flaw. Particularly when said feature is what allows just about all weapons, even notoriously bad ones like the Braton Mark 1 to, not compete, but at least hold their own even in reasonably high level play. 

 

If anything, I feel this constant appealing for "balance" and "limits" is more harmful to the game, because the balance people ask for is inevitably a pipe dream (how's anyone supposed to balance two hundred distinct guns, twenty+ distinct warframes, the entire mod system? It's not possible) that lessens the opportunities for fun mayhem with friends.

I've gotten used to it by now, of course. Not to say I have come to like these systems, but I feel that removing player limits puts DE in a ridiculously difficult situation, and they didn't think of the consequences when implementing these.

 

I feel that you're wrong. The less the player's limited, the better. If players want to spend the time to optimize their gun for maximum effectiveness, that's their choice. I usually don't multi-forma my guns, and that's my choice too.

 

The thing is, minmaxers will always minmax if there is any possibility to minmax at all. If forma were limited to one use per gun, they'd still bump up against the power ceiling. It's just that everyone else would basically have only three configurations for any given forma'd gun, since there's only three polarities: V/-/D. The other two are warframe powers and stance related.

Now, the game is ridiculously difficult to balance, and attempting to revert/change said system is nigh impossible due to players already having invested several hundreds of hours of game time and money into said systems.

 

I wouldn't say it's ridiculously difficult to balance due to ammo or forma; it's ridiculously difficult to balance due to the sheer number of weapons available, and the interplay of frames/guns/mods and enemies. The game wasn't "balanced" prior to the introduction of forma either. It wasn't "balanced" prior to U8 when Ogris was introduced. At worst these are symptoms of the issue rather than the cause.

 

Mind you, I honestly don't think I operate under the same definition of balance that you guys do. Because honestly, I don't see a problem with certain weapons (ones that are generally high mastery, expensive in terms of resources, and generally have higher player skill requirements) being more powerful than other guns. It's a natural consequence of having so many guns.

 

Like, the Ogris, 520 ammo and all. I say that's completely balanced. Why? Because it's high risk and high reward. I have died more with the Ogris than literally any other weapon in the game. (Though Angstrom is edging up there.) This is because melee enemies, of which every faction has at least two, will very happily rush right up into mutual-kill range with your explosives. If it was weaker there'd be little reason to use it. Already I only rarely see pentas and ogrises in the games I play, and I usually don't bring them myself unless I'm planning on either lulzing around or as part of a pre-coordinated plan with my team.

 

There's another issue as well. Limiting ammo for the explosives basically turns one of your weapon slots almost useless since those rockets/grenades are too valuable to use. You ever play, like, any FPS with a huge powerful gun that only has a couple shots? It's the same principle. The BFG is too valuable to actually use because you might need it later. What generous* ammo supplies for explosives does for warframe is encourage players to engage in the mayhem.

The most fun I've had in warframe is a four man penta party, self-downing and all. Warframe isn't some hardcore hyper realistic simulator like ARMA for space ninjas, it's a pick up and play coop game billed as up to four one man armies tearing through space zombies, space wal-mart, and space fascists like a combine harvester tears through wheat. Lots of mayhem is part of the experience, and I don't take kindly to people trying to ruin the experience by limiting how much mayhem I can cause.

 

*What counts as generous is "enough to use casually" for purposes of my argument. 

Also, at your last point : At least Team Ammo Restores are limited, and require you to replenish them. It's not perfect, but it's not unlimited either.

In practice it is unlimited, though. Nobody's going to have to use more than ten ammo restores in one mission unless they're going deep in survival or defense, and most people can afford the couple thousand ferrite and nanospores it takes to make one without even noticing. Even if not, just one or two missions in Neptune will give all you need to craft them. 

[SirAuron]

The main thing to take away from my suggestion is that primary ammo is one pickup. That way ammo you need is always dropping. The only reason to use an ammo restore would be when someone is too stubborn to use melee or their secondary.

 

It wouldn't be as big as you're thinking and some would get buffed. This is what I'd do for each rough category:

 

Launchers: 75(95 For Grenade Launchers)

Bows and snipers: 80

Heavy shotguns (Hek, Tigris): 120

Heavy rifles (Latron, Grinlock, etc.) and medium shotguns (Strun): 150

Auto shotguns (Sobek, Boar): 250

Medium rifles (Hind, Karak, Burston): 300

HMGs (Soma, Gorgon): 1200

SMGs and light rifles (Grakata, Braton) and Streamers (Phage, Amprex, Flux): 600

 

Super Heavy Pistols: 95

Heavy pistols (Lex, Stug): 150

Medium pistols (Latron, Bolto, Revolvers): 150

Auto Pistols: 350

 

Obviously I'd do a lot of playtesting, since it looks good to me on paper but I don't know how it would play until I tried it.

This is ok. Not everyone has Ammo Mutation or very good Ammo Restore.

Edited May 27, 2014 by SirAuron