De. You Can't Ignore This Any More. (Penta, Ogris And Angstrum Feedback)

[izzatuw]

I would be happy to see these weapons nerfed

I don't understand why they have the highest base damage per shot of all guns?

they have some of the highest burst dps around, able to do 60k damage aoe in a single rocket.

The argument that there actual "dps is low" is Stupid and pointless because this "DPS" only matters past level 100. these weapons burst with a single shot kills instantly making them the "top dps" until your sat in a defense or surv for at least an hour which over 98% of the people in this game Don't do.

before everyone starts the QQ, ask the simple question, what would you rather have on your team, 3x 4 forma'ed soma/synapse/lanka/Dread/top tier gun players or a single ogris player, I know which I would pick.

The recruitment posts, "LFG - XXX - Must have Ogris or Penta" is as much proof that these guns have "broken the game" (as a loose all encompassing phrase that is in it self meaningless)

Suggested solutions;

They should have there damage split between all targets. - the blizzard solution / nerf

or ammo reduced to 10

perhaps Pull from sniper ammo pool

even a slight reduction in damage, perhaps make them do less damage per shot but with a faster fire rate, so you can actually see the lower overall dps, currently you can't, as they 1 shot.

Pull from sniper pool and they'll just use a sniper ammo mutation. Reducing the ammo to 10 is a stupid idea. Have I told you people use these in missions like Sabotage, Exterm etc etc? This would make Penta a Defense only gun. Should we nerf Bow ammo at it as well? I mean how can someone hold 72 arrows. Shouldn't it be less? Should we nerf Soma ammo because it can hold 100 bullets in a single magazine and still have 500? Edited May 28, 2014 by izzatuw

[Tatersail]

Pull from sniper pool and they'll just use a sniper ammo mutation. Reducing the ammo to 10 is a stupid idea. Have I told you people use these in missions like Sabotage, Exterm etc etc? This would make Penta a Defense only gun. Should we nerf Bow ammo at it as well? I mean how can someone hold 72 arrows. Shouldn't it be less? Should we nerf Soma ammo because it can hold 100 bullets in a single magazine and still have 500?

true, true and true.

do you have any suggestions?

[izzatuw]

true, true and true.

do you have any suggestions?

Make them use different ammo rarer than Sniper ammo. Nerf the ammo to 50-100. 10 is crazy low.

[izzatuw]

10 ammo is a joke, Sniper Mutation and damage reduction is a no.

 

 

Buff other weapons, leave them as they are

Some weapons such as bows, Rifles like Latron prime and Soma are just as good. But we can't exactly buff a weapon to have as good AOE now can we? Unless we get something like thunderbolt for every class sure.

[Davoodoo]

Some weapons such as bows, Rifles like Latron prime and Soma are just as good. But we can't exactly buff a weapon to have as good AOE now can we? Unless we get something like thunderbolt for every class sure.

Now imagine aoe boltor(bolter) firing 16 explosive rounds per second each doing 4k dmg. 

 

Then try to imagine a challenging difficult game.

 

How you want to combine these 2 worlds??

Edited May 28, 2014 by Davoodoo

[izzatuw]

Why do they need AoE? Penta/Ogris are built for AoE / CC, Latron P is for single target as is Soma (Soma less so because spray and pray). However they can both use Punch-Through to deal more to multiple targets. Cannot compare an AoE weapon to a non-AoE weapon and complain.

It's because some people in this thread are complaining about their AOE. Honestly I say we keep them as they are. It's a PVE game not PVP.

Penta needs a rank 6 to build and use. Ogris probably does and needs clan research to do. Angstrum needs rank 4 access to build. Ammo is the LEAST of the problem DE needs to fixed. You guys asked for ammo rework, so don't be surprised on seeing ammo nerf on other precious weapons.

[izzatuw]

I agree. Thats why comparing two different weapon types do not work, there are weapons that need an ammo buff though (Bow example)

I think 72 seems reasonable but adding till 90-100 wouldn't hurt. I'd also say they'd slightly increase there drop rate because I can tend to lose ammo till 20 in missions that require mobility like Exterm etc etc.

[Justin_Case001]

Please leave the ogris alone.  Why do you all hate affinity?  It's only useful in one mission type anyway, and even then it gets pretty dodgy for grineer and corpus because they blow up the rocket in your face a lot, causing you to kill yourself.  It's the infested defense weapon, and that's pretty much it.  We need it so that leveling frames isn't a passive pain.  I hardly ever see ogri anyway.  It's not like it's destroying the balance of the game or something.

[Morveyn]

Please leave the ogris alone.  Why do you all hate affinity?  It's only useful in one mission type anyway, and even then it gets pretty dodgy for grineer and corpus because they blow up the rocket in your face a lot, causing you to kill yourself.  It's the infested defense weapon, and that's pretty much it.  We need it so that leveling frames isn't a passive pain.  I hardly ever see ogri anyway.  It's not like it's destroying the balance of the game or something.

Because there's no actual weight to using it. It's a weapon capable of killing nearly anything with a nigh bottomless ammo pool, and the only downside is that you can harm/kill yourself if you use it carelessly. And having endless ammo encourages the carelessness of its usage, and detracts from the psychological weight that the power of the weapon should imply. "Don't change it because it's always been this way" isn't a sufficient argument; it's the same one the people who complained about most other nerfs, particularly blessing.

 

All weapons need individualized ammo pool and draw, but the need to severely clip the ammo reserves of the Ogris, Penta, Angstrum, even the Torid, remains. These are weapons where the user should feel like each trigger pull needs to count, not something where you can fire with reckless abandon to great effect.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Morveyn

[izzatuw]

Because there's no actual weight to using it. It's a weapon capable of killing nearly anything with a nigh bottomless ammo pool, and the only downside is that you can harm/kill yourself if you use it carelessly. And having endless ammo encourages the carelessness of its usage, and detracts from the psychological weight that the power of the weapon should imply. "Don't change it because it's always been this way" isn't a sufficient argument; it's the same one the people who complained about most other nerfs, particularly blessing.

 

All weapons need individualized ammo pool and draw, but the need to severely clip the ammo reserves of the Ogris, Penta, Angstrum, even the Torid, remains. These are weapons where the user should feel like each trigger pull needs to count, not something where you can fire with reckless abandon to great effect.

Suggest me a number. Lower than 20 you can suck it up and put up yours. Going lower than 20 wouldn't encourage them to use it strategically. It'd stop players from using the gun to begin with. The downside to Penta and Ogris is that you need to be a high rank to build them. And both don't include polarities. And as far as I know I'm the only player I've seen use Penta nowadays.

[Seele]

Suggest me a number. Lower than 20 you can suck it up and put up yours. Going lower than 20 wouldn't encourage them to use it strategically. It'd stop players from using the gun to begin with. The downside to Penta and Ogris is that you need to be a high rank to build them. And both don't include polarities. And as far as I know I'm the only player I've seen use Penta nowadays.

Amusingly enough 20 reserve rockets is the exact number I proposed earlier. Rank requirement is hardly a balancing factor when new players are so easily and rapidly carried by the clans they join: I've spoken to a rank 7 who claimed to have been playing for two weeks and was preparing to forma their frame for the second time. What did they have? Nova and Penta.

I also love how the objectors are claiming that a low ammo count will completely void these weapons when its been stated several times that absolute worst case scenario, you resort to countering the ammo balancing factor like so many other weapons have to do, whether that be a mutation mod or ammo restores. Effectually, shouldn't even make a difference. Maybe make them a little less popular for things besides defense. This should be an easy concept to accept - I'd truly rather have their actual combat prowess reduced but that would really turn on the tears. If this relatively innocent concept is getting the response it is.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Cutting the ammo available to these weapons would really accomplish nothing. They will still be incredibly efficient in operation. Seeing a lower number in the corner of the screen, but still not making a dent in it, doesn't actually effect a change. On top of that, an ammo mutation mod will completely invalidate any nerfs. People who use them frequently will throw on one more forma and be back in action. I use them very infrequently, but I'd still probably work in a mutation just to spite people that wanted to change it (and then you'd see everyone with the same idea filling up missions with rockets and grenades while they re-leveled their weapons too -- talk about counterproductive to your goals).

Instead of complaining about this, how about we ask for them to look at weapons that are very inefficient? Machine pistol secondaries chew through ammo ridiculously fast and come with a tiny pool. The dex furis, for example, can reload twice, but it's not balancing that lack of efficiency with DPS or anything. It's not especially strong and it has no endurance.

Seriously, increase the pool for weapons that need it. Don't bother making infinite endurance weapons still infinite endurance with different numbers. It's a waste of time an effort for the devs.

[Rakosta_Kai]

And where did you get that idea? There is totally a difference, as long as changes made to the ammo system don't end up being wimpy. For example: Angstrum's ammo capacity is reduced to 180. That has no impact; I would go from 70 charge shots to 60, and I wouldn't ever notice the difference.

 

What idea?

That the point expressed in this thread is irrelevant?

Well... Because it is.

With Ammo Mutation and Ammo Restore mods there is no weapon in the game that has to go without without a full magazine in reserve when faced with balanced content. The idea posed in this thread won't change that.

The weapons are self damaging so strict fire control is already in effect.

 

Could it have been my comment about finding the difference between doing a crap ton of damage with infinite ammo vs doing a crap ton of damage with infinite ammo?

 

Don't be obtuse... The only place it would, conceivably, even begin to be noticeable would be deep into endless content where it would take more than one shot to kill a mob.

 

That's content we don't balance for, remember?  The bulk of the posters on this Forum seem to lose sight of that a lot.

 

 

Now, firstly, I'm not the only one who has said "it would feel better", but that's just part of why I want the ammo to be changed up.

I never said you were... Every single proponent of this change, including you, is basing their argument on "feel/felt"

 

 

Secondly, it wouldn't reduce content trivialization, rather, gameplay trivialization; where's the strategy, the intelligence, in loosing a barrage of ballistic projectiles, blowing away a wave of enemies, and then going on to rinse and repeat without having to worry about making a single, tactical decision?

How?!?!? I keep asking this and it keeps getting glossed over.

I don't worry about ammo on 95% of the weapon in this game The only exceptions to that rule are the Braton MK-1, Boltor, Boar, Boar Prime, and Sobek.

That's it...

And I don't worry much about the ammo on them...

The same holds true for anyone who practices ANY fire control and PREPARES themselves before entering a mission.

 

The fact that you, and others, can't (or won't) see that the goal your argument is expected to address won't be addressed by it is absolutely stunning to me.

 

 

 

I mean, what's the point of an ammo system if the player doesn't have to worry about ammo in 90% of the situations they play into? (Unless you've got an inefficient bullet hose)

 

What indeed?

Every weapon in the game falls into this category.... Even the inefficient bullet hoses!

I worry more about reload time than I do ammo count.

 

 

Off topic:

 

Thirdly, I see you're pretty darn worried about "rainbow builds". Well, I've got two things to say to that:

 

1) Rainbow builds nowadays result in Blast + Corrosive, and the only thing that would actually, really be useful for is killing Lephantis and Ancient Infested.

2)As for that extra damage that is always applied, I do agree, rainbow builds dish out a good bit of hurt, making them good all-around builds. But that's just it, they're all-around. and are easily outperformed by more specialized elemental combos (Radiation for Orokin, Viral for Fleshies, Magnetic for Corpus, etc...,etc...). Rainbow, in my opinion, is a lazy bum's build and a waste of mod space, and it really isn't that big of an issue.

 

I had to take the spoiler tags off this one...

"Just" Blast + Corrosive, huh?...

 

You really shouldn't have replied to this...

 

With respect, if this is the extent of what your builds consist of - You have more issues on your plate than ammo count.

 

There's a reason why no one else touched that topic.

 

I see you made no mention of attribute stacking though.. Further proving my point.

 

You, and those like you, are afraid of suggesting that meaningful cuts be made to create balanced and challenging gameplay.

Instead, you just want to reduce the annoyance of other player's habits and play-styles.

 

 

 

Finally, don't you dare use that "There's more important things like U14" argument, because there's always the time for Ammo 2.0 afterwards. It doesn't really matter when it happens, but more so for it to actually happen.

 

 

 

My argument deals with Opportunity Cost...

By that logic:

When I can find a stance mod for a weapon that no longer exists faster than I can a weapon DE awards me twice a month...I'll dare

When kitchen cutlery and pre-historic axes out-damage a Rocket Hammer or a Great-Axe by orders of magnitude... I'll dare

When I can go into the Void and receive the exact same award 7 times in a row from a list of 14 possible item awards...I'll dare

 

The list of things more worthy of discussion is huge...

 

If DE is going to spend 4 hours scratching their head over spreadsheets trying to fix something, It needs to be something that will actually improve the quality of the game.

Then we can talk about irrelevancies like this.

 

Hope that helps!

[Seele]

Cutting the ammo available to these weapons would really accomplish nothing. They will still be incredibly efficient in operation. Seeing a lower number in the corner of the screen, but still not making a dent in it, doesn't actually effect a change. On top of that, an ammo mutation mod will completely invalidate any nerfs. People who use them frequently will throw on one more forma and be back in action. I use them very infrequently, but I'd still probably work in a mutation just to spite people that wanted to change it (and then you'd see everyone with the same idea filling up missions with rockets and grenades while they re-leveled their weapons too -- talk about counterproductive to your goals).

Instead of complaining about this, how about we ask for them to look at weapons that are very inefficient? Machine pistol secondaries chew through ammo ridiculously fast and come with a tiny pool. The dex furis, for example, can reload twice, but it's not balancing that lack of efficiency with DPS or anything. It's not especially strong and it has no endurance.

Seriously, increase the pool for weapons that need it. Don't bother making infinite endurance weapons still infinite endurance with different numbers. It's a waste of time an effort for the devs.

Adding that mutator mod is one less arc in your damage rainbow and subjects these weapons to the same issues all other weapons face.

If every weapon is made to be naturally efficient enough slanted against their ammo pool, that nothing really runs out of ammo, then ammo restores and mods become more wasted space. Neither way is a waste of time or effort, it needs to be addressed one way or the other.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Seele

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Adding that mutator mod is one less arc in your damage rainbow and subjects these weapons to the same issues all other weapons face.

If every weapon is made to be naturally efficient enough slanted against their ammo pool, that nothing really runs out of ammo, then ammo restores and mods become more wasted space. Neither way is a waste of time or effort, it needs to be addressed one way or the other.

That's not what I said.

And "balancing" the explosive/launcher ammo but still having it effectively infinite due to efficiency is a waste of time and effort. It's practically the definition of one. It is work and time taken away from other things, for no functional change whatsoever. If you don't call that a waste, then I don't know what you would.

Edited May 28, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Seele]

That's not what I said.

And "balancing" the explosive/launcher ammo but still having it effectively infinite due to efficiency is a waste of time and effort. It's practically the definition of one. It is work and time taken away from other things, for no functional change whatsoever. If you don't call that a waste, then I don't know what you would.

Growing tired of repeating myself so please read the entire thread. I've already addressed this.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

read the entire thread

Did before posting. Still haven't seen a worthwhile reason that it will have any effect and not be a waste. Cutting down to three elements to fit a mutation will hardly stop a penta from killing things with one shot. Four elements is seldom the best way to build anyway because it's unlikely to be correctly exploiting vulnerabilities.

Maybe you just didn't address it very well.

Edited May 28, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Azawarau]

He, like the rest, never do. He just wants to nerf something because he doesn't like it, personal opinion which is not relevant to balancing.

Well not really ._.

 

I mean

 

If 99/100 peoples personal opinion is something needs to be changed in a game then it might be

 

Personal opinion can be fact and with enough justification can become something others like and agree on

 

In this case his opinion is that ogris is too strong in PvP

 

Its much more powerful than even some of the top weapons in the game in PvE so thats a safe bet to make considering PvPs record of "meh" balancing"

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

He, like the rest, never do. He just wants to nerf something because he doesn't like it, personal opinion which is not relevant to balancing.

Hey, I understand that having somebody blast everything away while you're working on leveling a gun isn't a fun away to play. But I also know the reason people use those weapons is because they are effective in a situation (like def and m def) and their efficiency. I can hardly imagine a way to make them less strategically effective for modes where enemies are going to clump up in one place and there are very few ways to make their ammo economy worse, all of which can be easily countered. It's ultimately the same as other balancing topics: either they will ruin launchers and people will move on to the next best thing or nothing will change. It will still be the best tool for the job.

I'd much rather this be "give more ammo to other weapons" than "take ammo away to no effect". Like I said, machine pistols go through ammo incredibly fast, faster than an ammo mutation can keep up, and they aren't AOE blasting anything. Fixing that through increase ammo pools and bigger pick-ups would be an actual change for the better.

Oh, Wraith Vipers... why can't I ever take you anywhere that matters?

Edited May 28, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Rakosta_Kai]

Personal opinion can be fact and with enough justification can become something others like and agree on

 

In this case his opinion is that ogris is too strong in PvP

 

Its much more powerful than even some of the top weapons in the game in PvE so thats a safe bet to make considering PvPs record of "meh" balancing"

That's not cause to devise a PvE nerf for the weapon... Moreover, the change suggested would have a negligible affect.

Additionally, while it's certainly been strongly implied in this thread there very few who have come and said it outright.

 

It's been stated in numerous threads that Heavy Ordinance weapons like Penta, Ogris, and Angstrum are unbalancing factors in PvP content.

Those, along with Reflection (as well as slide-attacks, imo) all need a PvP balance pass.

 

That has nothing to do with the premise of this thread though.

 

I will say that I see many proponents of this change being motivated for that reason though.

[Unibot]

So you do not like ogris, penta and angstrum or you do not like people using it ?

This game is turning into a whining pit.

WarWhiners.

I am sad that I have to play with people like OP who ruin fun for themselves and for others cause they feel they have to do justice for no reasonable point.

Running verticaly 10 m with no rope attached gives you high advantage but no tradeoff.

Hey OP did you ever consider that in other fps game you can carry rocket launchers with rifles and machine guns at the same time ? Yeah, you can't do that in warframe...

Edited May 28, 2014 by Unibot

[Seele]

Never once said PvP. As was said earlier, they are fun for exactly one person on a team, and the game is made very boring for everyone else. No, I don't like them, but I am not asking for their damage or anything else to be tamed.

I just want them to have to conform to the same limitations all other weapons have to, the rare and occasional threat of running low on or out of ammo. That. Is. It. Stop blowing it out of proportion. Please.

They can keep trivializing content and removing any illusion of challenge. I don't care anymore. Just put them within the same confines as everything else. They can already do more with 5 rockets than some rifles can do with 200 rounds of the same ammo, so please stop acting as if I, or anyone else, is seeking to grind these weapons into the point of worthlessness.

[Seele]

That is literally what I've been saying this whole time... Either ammo needs to be an equal and fair balancing factor or it needs to not be a factor at all. I've been erring on the side of balancing it instead of removing it outright, but balance is balance, equality is equality.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

But you aren't addressing it for the purposes of making high volume/low damage weapons better to use, you're talking about reducing the ammo for something that won't be effected by the change.

I mentioned making other weapons better to use without adding to power creep, just by keeping them fed, because I think it will have a better impact on the game.

Edited May 28, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[LordofTibera]

Wanna know the best part? They CAN.And they have! They've ignored this issue since the first explosive weapons were invented. Expect changes in the game as the devs deem it important. Unfortunately, that means you can just sit and wait for changes like the rest of us. Nobody listens to threads that say things like "okay, DE, you can't ignore this anymore," as there have been many.