.. You All Realize It's Not The Amount Of Lore That Matters, Right?

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

It's the quality and placement...  I personally love the way DE is doing it, it's actually a bit like Dark Souls.  It lets us speculate. It leaves room for our own interpretations, and what little there is is very rich.  Much like Dark Souls, you can play through warframe without it, but with it, you gain a greater appreciation for what it is. 

I personally don't want a strict, campaign style story.  I want one where you discover what's going on using your own brain.  I want little pieces of lore peppered in, that keep adding togehter and just keep networking into something that you end up enjoying more than watching a cutscene. 

 

And so far, Warframe is on that path, and it has rich lore for what it is.  All you've got to do is look for it. 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Gaminus

[Sixty5]

I agree that quality does beat out quantity, but only after a certain quantity is reached. At this point we have a decent amount of bits and pieces about this game, but there is not enough to where some questions can be answered. We know little to nothing about the origins of each faction, or about how they fit together.

 

Furthermore things like the Mag Prime codex entry are great, but the number of terms in that piece that we are hearing about for the first time is staggering, and only brings more questions.

 

Many more snippets are needed, as well as some real meaty chunks to help tie everything together

[Kade974]

I remember one of the Devs talked about how they don't want you to see what Warframes look like without their suit on because it leaves it up to your imagination to think to yourself what they look like. Which in a way it makes you relate your Warframe to yourself and I think that's amazing and I love the idea so much. So with the little lore they give you basically you do the same thing you make up your own story in a way. Keeps everyone making their own story to their own liking which I find very creative on the Devs side. I'm fine if they added more lore, but I don't think they need to.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Kade974

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

I agree that quality does beat out quantity, but only after a certain quantity is reached. At this point we have a decent amount of bits and pieces about this game, but there is not enough to where some questions can be answered. We know little to nothing about the origins of each faction, or about how they fit together.

 

Furthermore things like the Mag Prime codex entry are great, but the number of terms in that piece that we are hearing about for the first time is staggering, and only brings more questions.

 

Many more snippets are needed, as well as some real meaty chunks to help tie everything together

Yeah, I suppose you're correct.

Still, we can easily discern what a percussion rifle might be, or what a zero tech object might be.  A percussion weapon either uses or makes a shockwave, and a zero tech object is something without networked tech or computational capabilities, since the sentients can mess with things that do that. 

I suppose it's because I'm part of the Elder Scrolls Obscure lore community, or that I'm a Dark Souls fan, but I can extrapolate things quite easily.

 

I remember one of the Devs talked about how they don't want you to see what Warframes look like without their suit on because it leaves it up to your imagination to think to yourself what they look like. Which in a way it makes you relate your Warframe to yourself and I think that's amazing and I love the idea so much. So with the little lore they give you basically you do the same thing you make up your own story in a way. Keeps everyone making their own story to their own liking which I find very creative on the Devs side. I'm fine if they added more lore, but I don't think they need to.

I'd love more lore, just to stay the course it's going, while they focus on gameplay content.  Sorry, but a single player campaign takes months to build and just hours to play through.  Not worth it for a f2p game. 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Gaminus

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

+1

What i like about Warframe lore style the most is that we see the story from the perspective of others, allies and foes alike. We dont see our story but the results of what we have done in said story.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

+1

What i like about Warframe lore style the most is that we see the story from the perspective of others, allies and foes alike. We dont see our story but the results of what we have done in said story.

Flavor text is best text.

[Sixty5]

Yeah, I suppose you're correct.

Still, we can easily discern what a percussion rifle might be, or what a zero tech object might be.  A percussion weapon either uses or makes a shockwave, and a zero tech object is something without networked tech or computational capabilities, since the sentients can mess with things that do that. 

I suppose it's because I'm part of the Elder Scrolls Obscure lore community, or that I'm a Dark Souls fan, but I can extrapolate things quite easily. 

I personally have a pretty large cache of warframe lore that i have extrapolated or otherwise pieced together, but for anyone without that sort of diligence the game seems bland.

[WERElektro]

I agree. But it wouldn't harm the game to have a bit more lore. Or.. if they could add those little bits more often.

Because what we have now is just frustrating.

[Renegade343]

But as of right now, there are too few bits and pieces to make something of a picture. I would actually like DE to create one small part of the big picture, then leave hints to allow us to continue building it. 

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

I personally have a pretty large cache of warframe lore that i have extrapolated or otherwise pieced together, but for anyone without that sort of diligence the game seems bland.

In the same vein, anyone who just roflstomps through Dark souls really doesn't understand how much of a $&*^ they are to the characters in that game, and they don't fully grasp what they've done. 

 

But as of right now, there are too few bits and pieces to make something of a picture. I would actually like DE to create one small part of the big picture, then leave hints to allow us to continue building it. 

There's plenty.  All you've got to do is look in the codex.  But yes, more is nice.  As I've said, but I would enjoy it greatly if it stayed on course.

 

I agree. But it wouldn't harm the game to have a bit more lore. Or.. if they could add those little bits more often.

Because what we have now is just frustrating.

Try reading the 36 lessons of vivec and trying to understand the metaphysics of gay orgies.  I cant make this up. 

[WERElektro]

 

Try reading the 36 lessons of vivec and trying to understand the metaphysics of #$$ orgies.  I cant make this up. 

 

....

what?

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

....

what?

Be warned, you are entering the twilight zone.  ((NSFW))

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_14

Edited May 28, 2014 by Gaminus

[Casardis]

 or that I'm a Dark Souls fan, but I can extrapolate things quite easily.

 

If you're a Dark Souls fan, then you know that they handle lore with both aspects: direct "neutral" lore bits with historical facts (such as Artorias and Sif's story found through his shield description), as well as mystery/enigma (King Vendrick's Ultra Greatsword description). It's all about what information they give and what's actually left out intentionally, not writing melodramatic journal entries like Mag Prime's.

 

Currently, in Warframe, for the most part we get too much cryptic "lore" in the form of wall of texts that give us little to no information. Mag Prime's entry especially suffers from it, while Excal and Stalker's lore bits gave us lots of answers while raising some questions from the information that's left out. We know the Sentients grew stronger as the Orokin did, but who are they and what are they? We know from Stalker's entry that the Tenno caused the Orokin extinction, but what were their motivation, and was it really justified? Those are good lore bits DE did. Mag Prime's, however, is simply too much text with little to no valuable information.

 

There's also problems of "events" and continuity with them, and how they're added to the game. We're in this big conflict to try and restore balance/defeat the evil corporations/empire while saving other Tenno in cryo, but then suddenly, Dark Sectors conflict! You could also tell from DE's response to the complains in how it fits into the lore that they haven't thought it through in this aspect; only in gameplay. Heck, as simple as it is, even the Conclaves was introduced better in the lore of the Tenno.

 

So we might need both. Currently, Warframe's story-telling isn't the same quality as Dark Souls: its execution isn't as good, especially because its gameplay doesn't immerse us in a way that we can find the puzzle pieces like in Dark Souls. It can try as much as it wants to, but if events are always about "that guy has an evil plan and we must stop him" without revealing much more in the puzzle, because there isn't much of a puzzle to play with in the first place, impact is lost.

 

If there's no good storytelling pace/method to drive the lore, especially if too much lore content try to be edgy, then it simply won't work. We'll have to stretch information to look into it, as opposed to constructing a puzzle with actual pieces carefully placed around. By the way, when I talk about storytelling pace/method, I'm not talking about cutscenes and stuff: Dark Souls doesn't have much of that, and its storytelling method is still quite great to bring its lore forward. Elder Scrolls: Morrowind also did it well with the many books scattered around that you can read, as well as the characters you talk to.

 

Dark Souls' and constant reminder that we're in a world of almost-hopelessness contributes to the mysterious atmosphere surrounding its lore. It's its identity. That's why we need even more mixes of both here, instead of restricting ourselves with constant cryptic stuff.

 

Dark Souls' lore bits scattered around have more information and mystery in them, even if it's just a single sentence, like, again, the King's Ultra Greatsword.

"An ultra greatsword forged from the soul of King Vendrick. Inflicts heavy damage on enemy armor.

Only the king knows whether the depiction of the Queen is a resentful mockery, or an affectionate exaltation."

 

I made a topic that talks about that as well: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/237190-codex-could-use-proper-informative-and-unbiased-lore-entries/

 

Unlike what some may think, facts with information left out brings just as much mystery if it's done well. Again, being a Dark Souls fan that you are, you should know that because that game series does it too.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

There's plenty.  All you've got to do is look in the codex.  But yes, more is nice.  As I've said, but I would enjoy it greatly if it stayed on course.

I do look at the codex to get hints and build a picture to the Warframe lore, but sometimes there is just not enough pieces in the codex to connect different parts together (It's like building a Lego structure with limited and few Lego bricks, there will be some places where two or more already built parts just need a connection that is lacking in the initial pile of Lego bricks, and no matter how one tries, it just can't be connected together until the piece arrives).

Edited May 28, 2014 by Renegade343

[Endrance]

I just want facts.

 

How, why, when and what.

 

Atm you're just a Tenno, who appeared from god knows where, and you're working to a person who only god knows who she is, and all your enemies have a lethal grudge on your, for whatever god reason.

 

Now, trade all those "god knows" with facts, and i'll be really happy with the lore.

 

 

I believe no-one wants a strick-one-way-story like we have in Final Fantasy games (despite their @(*()$ awesome), there is no place for it here.

 

We just need background lore, to sustent what we have, and to give base to further events and stuff

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

If you're a Dark Souls fan, then you know that they handle lore with both aspects: direct "neutral" lore bits with historical facts (such as Artorias and Sif's story found through his shield description), as well as mystery/enigma (King Vendrick's Ultra Greatsword description). It's all about what information they give and what's actually left out.

 

Currently, in Warframe, for the most part we get too much cryptic "lore" in the form of wall of texts that give us little to no information. Mag Prime's entry especially suffers from it, while Excal and Stalker's lore bits gave us lots of answers while raising some questions from the information that's left out. We know the Sentients grew stronger as the Orokin did, but who are they and what are they? We know from Stalker's entry that the Tenno caused the Orokin extinction, but what were their motivation, and was it really justified? Those are good lore bits DE did. Mag Prime's, however, is simply too much text with little to no valuable information.

 

So we need both.

 

I made a topic that talks about that as well: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/237190-codex-could-use-proper-informative-and-unbiased-lore-entries/

Mag Prime's lore entry showed the Sentients, the social stigma of Tenno, their abilities, and some other things.  It also showed us that the Orokin were seperate from Humans.

 

 

I do look at the codex to get hints and build a picture to the Warframe lore, but sometimes there is just not enough pieces in the codex to connect different parts together (It's like building a Lego structure with limited and few Lego bricks, there will be some places where two or more already built parts just need a connection that is lacking in the initial pile of Lego bricks).

You are a Tenno Vor found in an orokin ruin.  He doesn't like you because you're a Tenno, and he's a Grineer.  Grineer want domination, you stand in the way.  He tries to kill you, other, more experienced tenno stop him.  You get stronger, kick his &#!.

The corpus are a religious and economic superpower dedicated to greed, and refurbishing Orokin tech. 

The Infested are wild Technocyte virus. 

The Tenno are those who can control the void-taint within them, and have something to do with Hayden Tenno.  Due to their abilities, the Orokin used them against the Sentients.  Our abilities are independant of Technology, which was the Orokin's best way of doing everything.  We used the Void.  It's why we're so dangerous, and why we were able to beat them back.  We also have something to do with the technocyte virus. 

Sometimes, the Corpus, Grineer, and Tenno butt heads because we have conflicts.  Perhaps some resource was discovered, some offensive found, some imbalance needing adjustment.  All the while, the putrid infested seep in through the cracks.

[Vexxie]

I prefer this type of lore opposed to being spoon fed it in long boring narrations that lead to nowhere. Leaves me open to learn it naturally and is much more believable. Tutorial was the best piece of this, "All you need to know is you're tenno, heres how to fight, now get out before you die" Vor wasn't gonna wait for Lotus to explain the entire order to you (but let you train for gameplay reasons, had to do it somewhere i guess), It gave it more of a realistic tone instead of feeling like the introduction lecture, if they can make the quests feel like this and keep the codex stocked with good side stories like Mag Prime and Ember's entries then A+ to DE.

[Sitchrea]

Still, we can easily discern what a percussion rifle might be, or what a zero tech object might be.  A percussion weapon either uses or makes a shockwave, and a zero tech object is something without networked tech or computational capabilities, since the sentients can mess with things that do that.

Actually by typical Sci-Fi terms a "Zero-tech" or "Tier-Zero" technology is something so advanced that it is considered almost "Transcendant" and is typically found to belong to races with intergalactic capabilities; this makes no sense because obviously no race is even interstellar yet.

 

This is a problem with what you are saying about how lore should be done - different people come away with different ideas about what the world is. Now for single-player games like the Touhou series, Elder Scrolls series, and Dark Souls Franchise is can work, but for a persistant multiplayer online game the universe must be explained clearly so that no confusion arises and creates discrepincies in the work, and thus harming the universe's credibility as legitimate, a crucial aspect of Sci-Fi universes.

[Kizlev]

4 8 15 16 23 42...and the Smoke Monster is really Ash. Well, that is if Warframe was directed by JJ Abrams. =P

 

But seriously, let's be thankful that the game is a new and original IP, and not something heavily established like Star Trek or Star Wars. At least if DE writes something new, they don't have to worry about consistency with some far flung story that aired on TV way back in 1969. What's more, DE, unlike Hollywood, has lots more incentive to listen to us and we can help co-author the story. In some ways we do this with our ideas and votes on the Design Council.

 

This game and its young story has so much potential for longevity and franchise opportunity (internet/TV series perhaps? one can dream).

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

Actually by typical Sci-Fi terms a "Zero-tech" or "Tier-Zero" technology is something so advanced that it is considered almost "Transcendant" and is typically found to belong to races with intergalactic capabilities; this makes no sense because obviously no race is even interstellar yet.

 

This is a problem with what you are saying about how lore should be done - different people come away with different ideas about what the world is. Now for single-player games like the Touhou series, Elder Scrolls series, and Dark Souls Franchise is can work, but for a persistant multiplayer online game the universe must be explained clearly so that no confusion arises and creates discrepincies in the work, and thus harming the universe's credibility as legitimate, a crucial aspect of Sci-Fi universes.

Heh, speaking of discrepencies, TESO is a real stinker.  By that time Cyrodiil is supposed to be jungle. 

Ever read C0DA?  It's pseudo sci fi set in the elder scrolls universe.  I forget quite where I was going with this, but discrepencies?  Not really.  Confusion?  Not really.  Warframe is all quite fluid, sure it's gone through some drastic changes, but they've settled on many main story elements by now.

 

Ah, yes.  C0DA.  It basically says nothing and everything is Canon in the elder scrolls universe, but yet, it still matters.  Its all very esoteric, but to those who look, and those who don't, it settles many things.  You don't need "canon" to be credible.  C0DA proves this.

It basically goes and says "TES is really odd since it deals with time travel and on linear time flow, so why bother with normal sequences of events?"  But it also provides a way of interpreting that's just as valid, and lets the universe stay as is, basically a rather nice fantasy setting, with some sci fi bleed-in. 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Gaminus

[Casardis]

Mag Prime's lore entry showed the Sentients, the social stigma of Tenno, their abilities, and some other things.  It also showed us that the Orokin were seperate from Humans.

 

I edited my post with much more information on what my point was by the way.

 

Also, all the information you mentioned barely gave us as much lore as the previous entries, despite being the longest of them all. I'm talking about efficiency.

 

Excal

- Sentients aren't the Tenno. They are a separated enemy (cleared speculations about Tenno = Sentients)

- Sentients evolved alongside the Orokin, maybe faster at a certain point when they turned their techs against them

- Tenno are beings that "came back" from "that place," being the Void, and are "twisted" by it.

- Warframes were built around their "afflicition" caused by the Void, possibly their powers

- Warframes possibly amplify and unlocks the full potential of their powers, since they are built around their "affliction."

- Tenno are beings inside the suit, not the suit itself

- The Tenno were considered the saviors of the Orokin, possibly because, by the time this entry was written by an Orokin, they believed they had the power to fight the Sentients.

 

Ember

- "The fold" may be a reference to the Void portal

- The Zariman, a ship, was lost in the Void but reappeared, intact, showing that you can come back from the Void (important for later on)

- Some children were the only people left inside the ship

- Kaleen, possibly an Orokin investigator, got her face burned when she came in contact with one of the children.

-- Putting two and two together with Excal's lore entry, the surviving children may have been the "twisted ones who came back from that place," being among the first Tenno.

- The child who burned Kaleen's face was an Ember-type Tenno.

- Last dialogues are mysterious in a good way. My interpretation goes two ways:

--- the Tenno children who were on board the ship weren't there before the Zariman went through the fold, and therefore came from the Void itself.

--- the Orokin were experimenting a lot with the mystery of the Void, and sent groups in a ship through the fold, whether through set up or volunteering (I vote the former). These experiments are not known to everyone, explaining Kaleen's surprise, while the three figures behind the table seem pondering about the "results," as if their calculations were right.

- Putting the second theory this with Stalker's lore entry, that might be one of the motivations for the Orokin extinction, by the Tenno

 

All of that in much less texts and needless dramatic reports.

 

 

The corpus are a religious and economic superpower dedicated to greed, and refurbishing Orokin tech. 

The Infested are wild Technocyte virus.

 

You only learn that as clearly from the Corpus because:

- It's stated in their straight-forward description in the official site

- It was stated in the Corpus lore entry, when it still existed

 

Why isn't it put in-game anymore? It should be, in the Codex at least, so that new players don't have to look everywhere for such facts. Most of us "veterans" know that by heart now because of how it's the only information we pretty much have of the Corpus. That hasn't developed further ever since they put their website description and the pre-codex lore entry.

 

That's what I mean about information that should be included, not just some cryptic stuff all the time as new "lore."

I repeat, Dark souls was cryptic, but also had historical facts/description inserted, with information left out.

Dark souls was being efficient. Currently, Warframe goes toward a path where information released (at super slow pace) is NOT efficient (not talking about sufficient, only efficiency).

Edited May 28, 2014 by Casardis

[Renegade343]

You are a Tenno Vor found in an orokin ruin.  He doesn't like you because you're a Tenno, and he's a Grineer.  Grineer want domination, you stand in the way.  He tries to kill you, other, more experienced tenno stop him.  You get stronger, kick his &#!.

The corpus are a religious and economic superpower dedicated to greed, and refurbishing Orokin tech. 

The Infested are wild Technocyte virus. 

The Tenno are those who can control the void-taint within them, and have something to do with Hayden Tenno.  Due to their abilities, the Orokin used them against the Sentients.  Our abilities are independant of Technology, which was the Orokin's best way of doing everything.  We used the Void.  It's why we're so dangerous, and why we were able to beat them back.  We also have something to do with the technocyte virus. 

Sometimes, the Corpus, Grineer, and Tenno butt heads because we have conflicts.  Perhaps some resource was discovered, some offensive found, some imbalance needing adjustment.  All the while, the putrid infested seep in through the cracks.

I know all of that, given that I played sine U8 and followed the story closely, but I want some more snippets of Corpus/Grineer/Infested accounts as a guide to a somewhat clearer picture, and yet open more pathways for interpretation. As of right now, the current snippets we have gives us a fuzzy picture (but still good enough to pick out some details), which is, in my own opinion, not my cup of tea. 

 

Some potential snippets from the answers to these questions: 

 

How do the Corpus indoctrinate captured people?

What makes the Corpus so interested to Orokin tech? Is it for power? Or is it something more sentimental? 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Renegade343

[Morec0]

As it stands, we are supposed to be the Tenno, and the Tenno do not remember how the biggest event in their time - their overthrowing of the Orokin - happened or why (for the most part). I prefer to keep it that way, it is a mystique of the past that has to be filled in by each player, each person, individually. It really helps to convey what the Tenno are at right now (out of time and far away from the world they knew, but creating a new one for themselves where they are now), and I, personally, think it should be kept that way - I say we should NEVER know, definitively, WHY the Tenno turned against the Orokin. Let the players decide if it was for vengeance, balance, or because they were manipulated by someone - for that is the way their Tenno could perceive the world.

 

Now, I DO think we need more lore on OTHER such events: particularly the rise of the Grineer and Corpus, and the backgrounds for the key figures of those races. What IS the Lotus? What were the Sentients? Those sort of things are the Lore Warframe REALLY needs - the lore of the universe as it is now, not as it was before.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

I know all of that, given that I played sine U8 and followed the story closely, but I want some more snippets of Corpus/Grineer/Infested accounts as a guide to a somewhat clearer picture. 

 

For instance: 

 

How do the Corpus indoctrinate captured people?

What makes the Corpus so interested to Orokin tech? Is it for power? Or is it something more sentimental? 

I would assume that the corpus indoctrinate people in the same way as old churches or military academies would indoctrinate people.

And the Corpus seem to have little sentiment towards Orokin tech beyond "This S#&$ is valuable, let's turn a profit"

Because they're the Corpus.  A giant Corporation.

[Casardis]

I would assume that the corpus indoctrinate people in the same way as old churches or military academies would indoctrinate people.

And the Corpus seem to have little sentiment towards Orokin tech beyond "This S#&$ is valuable, let's turn a profit"

Because they're the Corpus.  A giant Corporation.

 

The fact that they call the Tenno betrayers (ties in with Stalker's entry) and how they have a religious vision of gaining profit and salvaging technology (gives much more depth in their culture, as opposed to a simple mega corporation looking for profit), with the Orokin technology being the highest in their list due to how advanced they are, show how they pretty much see the Orokin as the peak of their religion. So I'll disagree with what you said.

 

Also, we have the problem of too much assumptions. Again, comparing with Dark Souls, though you would assume a lot in that game, there are much more content to pick and make theories about without actually stretching the elements, or putting the bar too low for a simple "assumptions," which more often than not, like you did, would get rid of any potential depth DE could easily have further.

 

They don't need to tell us exactly how they indoctrinate, but giving us more hints, even in the form of straight information like Dark Souls do with some items/weapons, will add to both facts and enigmas.

 

Here's Dual Ether's description.

 

Fast and precise. The Ether Sword cuts so cleanly that it was considered by the Tenno to be a more humane weapon for 'cleansing' infested allies. Capable of hitting multiple targets.

 

This description implies that Tenno has a concept of humanity, and therefore a form of sympathy since infested allies are most likely mindless moving corpses already (it could also allude to the possibility that the infested still feel unrelenting pain, have a sense of identity, depsite being warped physically beyond help).

 

That provides quite some big information on the Tenno very early on (since Dual Ether can easily be built) that, despite what's under the suit, there's an entity that can feel things similar to us, regular humans, or at least try to. We are also provided with the information that the Tenno did have allies even before today (since the Ether Sword must have existed even during the Orokin era).

Edited May 28, 2014 by Casardis