Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[DiabolusUrsus]

Okay so, just something I noticed, is that all the examples of "good" boss battles are single-player games. Devil May Cry, Dark Souls.

 

Find an example that applies. Single-player boss battles and multiplayer boss battles are entirely different creatures.

 

Can you name multiplayer boss battles that are anything more than pump damage into it until it dies? Because that seems to be the model for MMOs and shooters. Warframe is the only multiplayer game I can think of with boss battles that are more comparable to single-player bosses. They seem to be deliberately aiming for that sort of gameplay structure. 

 

That, and what Beladric said concerning Dark Souls bosses. 

[Moderius]

Dark Souls bosses are designed for both single player and multiplayer. With the phantom system, its even possible to have nearly as many players as in Warframe (3 a team vs 4 a team).

 

The entire dynamic is entirely different. You may as well compare them to bosses in Armor Core. The playstyle is entirely and completely dissimilar.

[Moderius]

Can you name multiplayer boss battles that are anything more than pump damage into it until it dies? 

 

Just off the top of my head, I can think of no shortage of them. 

 

But you're only asking for one, right? Okay. This is the most opposite example of "pump damage" possible.

[Trainsaw]

snip

It is hard to put my finger on all of the reasons your comments irks me, but I am willing to try.

 

They also didn't describe it as a good idea, but as the ultimate challenge. I don't believe DE needs to change the game to accomodate self-imposed handicaps. DE didn't tell you do go without guns, they merely made it an option.

But it's /not/ the ultimate challenge if it's impossible. You /cannot/ hit Ruk with a melee weapon, this is not a matter of mods or using the abilities you have, it's not functional. Yes, going melee only is just an option, however (and i'm sorry for projecting here) Giving us gameplay options that do not work with the game is bad design.

 If you didn't equip Serration on your primary and complained about enemies being too tough to kill, you'd be laughed at.

I have clocked in 98 hours into this game, on par with with a good solid run of dragon age and this mod eludes me. (projecting again) If something is borderline required to make the game playable it should not take so long to aquire the flipping thing.

 

And if you'll permit a tangent this brings me to a main gripe of warframes equipment system and that is that "levelling up" a weapon is absolutely pointless. Nothing is changed, a rank 30 rifle is the exact same as a level one rifle. "Oh but you can equip more mods to it" Ah yes so once I level a weapon I have to pray to rngesus for it to actually matter (and you better start praying boy/girl/nonbinary individual because most of those mods are cheap excuses for improvement anyways). Sure you can make the argument that increased reload time and higher clip size are really useful but IMHO this should just flat out come with ranking up. (heck, I'm not even asking for that big a change, just a small stat boost would be nice) In virtually every other online mmo type game i have played that let you level up your weapon it actually did something. The only reason this one doesn't is to increase the mod game, which is a numbers and percentages game, which is not fun.

 

*ahem* back to replying

 

transmute four Crimson Dervishes

A feature that is entirely luck based on top of not actually being well explained.

 

If a player doesn't know what to expect from a boss, then it would be stupid for them to unequip their guns. I said as much before. If they bring a self-imposed handicap to an unknown situation and fail, then they know not to do so again. While admitting defeat is not something people always want to do, it's only a game. It's not some deep shame they'll have to carry for the rest of their life. It's sort of sucks, but they did it to themselves. In my book, refusing to equip and refusing to make use of are the same thing.

Making a choice the game lets you make should not equal inability to accomplish your goal. I personally enjoy trying to melee only a boss (those that let you) because I find it fun (hey remember that word, that whole thing games are supposed to be about) and challenging, but going into a boss you've already fought and want to clear in different way just to found out that "lol your sword arc can't reach my weakspot" Is neither of these, it is frustrating and leaves you with a disconnect between what you should be able to do (according to the game itself) and what the game will actually let you do.

 

 

Trading has made it a different game.

 

This is the problem! Trading is the game, period, stop supporting this kind of thing.

 

If you're a solo player, you don't unequip your guns.

If you're a solo player you don't play solo because this game hates you and wasn't designed for it. (that's a different issue though)

 

It's not about "the way you want to play" because you can still play that way with a gun stuck to your leg.

Disregarding the fact that maybe i don't want to play with a gun stuck to my leg, that's not the issue here. The issue is that melee 2.0 advertised that you wouldn't have to, we were told we could do a thing and then found out that was false, this does not leave a good feeling.

 

 

I would prefer they let me fail missions all over the place so I can design my own safety net.

 

I don't believe anyone is entitled to success. People going melee only are going into the graveyard instead of up the stairs to the right, you dig? The solution is not to make the skeletons easier, it's for players to learn from their struggles.

Another big issue, you need a safety net, you have to have just the right thing for just the right scenario or you will fail. Skill does not matter, this is bad. And to wrap things up, we don't want easier skeletons, we want non-immortal skeletons.

[Beladric]

The entire dynamic is entirely different. You may as well compare them to bosses in Armor Core. The playstyle is entirely and completely dissimilar.

 

Comparing our current bosses to Armoured Core honestly wouldn't be too dissimilar, except we are significantly less durable then fifteen metre tall robots, who knew? Both games employ damage sponges for the most part, Armoured Core just doesn't pretend otherwise and at least has the good graces to make said fights one on one most of the time. The few bosses that aren't damage sponges are, like Lephantis, weak point bosses (hello AF Answerer and AF Mother Will).

 

The sincere difference between the games is one gives you significantly more maneuverability then the other, whilst the other grants you additional combat options.

 

 

 

Just off the top of my head, I can think of no shortage of them. 

 

But you're only asking for one, right? Okay. This is the most opposite example of "pump damage" possible.

 

Except it follows roughly same principle. Overload something with numbers until the fight is over. Just because the numbers in this case are healing does not make it different in a significant way, especially not in Warframe's case where such a boss would be impossible to implement with our current ability set. Also, if your going to call bad example on Dark Souls, I'm calling bad example on WoW, because WoW has, frankly, a more developed skill system then we will likely ever see. Dark Souls is a good example precisely because of how its systems set up (four equipment slots, 3 players total, spells can substitute for abilities, the upgrade system for the standard serration/elemental load outs, dodging, melee and sprinting take from a stamina bar, etc). While not an exact match by any stretch, it is order of magnitudes closer to Warframe then WoW is, which is a game that relies on ability casts as much as it relies on equipment. Warframe is designed around having four abilities a frame, and given only two frames even HAVE healing abilities, a boss fight in that vein is flat out impossible, as nice as some variety would be.

 

Honestly, your example was good right up until the point it turned out to be a defense mission with healing involved, and that is what it is. Given our defense tools are prone to not working properly depending on the current patch, that comes back to a need for numbers normalization before a boss fight based around it can even be considered. However, you are right, you did come up with a boss fight that wasn't pure damage sponge, so kudos there. Assassination missions do need far more variance then they have, and you did provide an example of how to do it.

 

I think you might have missed the point of the discussion. The point is that all bosses should be defeatable with any frame, solo, with any particular weapon type (not weapon, bringing a Braton Mk-1 to a fight with the Corpus is folly and should be punished accordingly, since boss nodes give at least that much forewarning). Dark Souls is an example where this is possible. Devil may Cry is an example of a game that won't let you enter a boss fight without the equipment necessary to beat it. Should it be easy to do so? Of course not. However, I can name four bosses we currently have where defeating them in melee is currently either impossible or very close to it. I've never gotten a definitive answer as to whether Lephantis can be melee'd, but given Krill and Ruk, I'm willing to bet the answer is no. If your not going to accommodate the solo players in all their forms, then solo support really needs to be dropped. Likewise, the inclusion of enemies that are functionally immune to melee means that going 'Sword Alone' should not be possible.

 

I believe it was Scott that said he got to Pluto with a Skana and nothing else, when Melee 2.0 came out. I'm going to call bull on that, since we know of one boss directly in his way he couldn't have passed without a gun. The option is available. The minimum courtesy involved with making the option available is also making it possible to do.

[Eyeless]

First off, fantastic post. You've put into words what I haven't been able to say for several months now and best of all people are listening to you.

I will continue reading and bumping this thread if it does indeed need bumped, and I think you should be proud of what you've accomplished here.

 

I've never seen an otherwise thoroughly divided community come together in such universal agreement with few misunderstandings inbetween that have thusfar been kept within civil means. If I could take every upvote I've made on these forums and re-donate them to your first post, I certainly would without hesitation.

 

Thank the Void not Lotus who forakes us in our need for air... that someone has managed to make such a comprehensive thread that successfully pins every issue to the grind-wall. 

 

I understood what you were asking for, but I don't think you got what I was saying. It will restrict what the devs can do with bosses if extremly handicapped players must be able to defeat them.

We'll use the new Derf Anyo as an example.

His totally sweet hoverboard? If players must be able to defeat him with melee only, his flight and speed must be restricted. He cannot fly higher than players can reach (there's another threat complaining about not being able to kill drones melee only where the OP steadfastly refuses to bring a gun and would rather fail) and Derf cannot fly faster than players can run (there is another thread complaining about not being able to melee-only capture targets with gauntlets and a slow stance). Now Derf and his styling new helmet are barely better than any other slow, ground-based boss.

There isn't more variety, there's the illusion of more variety. You feel like you have more options, but all your options are really the same. You attack the slow moving boss like you would any other. It's just a bag of hitpoints. It can't have anything other than a big pool of health because some Thrak Rhino with gauntlet weapons and no guns needs to be able to beat him too.

I believe their goal is to make bosses which can't simply be flavor-of-the-month spray cannoned down in five seconds. Do to this, they need strategies and gimmicks, and those mean not every approach can be viable for every boss.

 

I think this is when a more fleshed out and less mod-based melee system would come in handy provided the map had enough places to utilize the parkour system to close any aerial gaps, but this too would require the games clunky parkour be further fleshed out and built upon...without making us equip new warframe mods to take advantage of any of the new features. 

 

Getting tired of you doing that DE. 

 

The only thing that's been done lately that's given me some hope is Hydroid and the most recent Warframe reworks. 

 

It's finally beginning to feel like DE are grasping the reality of how these Warframes actually interact with enemies beyond level five. 

 

Hydroid is this fantastic mix of chaotic crowd control that can be cast in such a way as to keep half a chamber full of enemies staggering around on their back while getting jostled by water volleys, dunked in puddles, caught in waves, and slapped by tentacles. Everything he does scales very well into late-game. All in all, Hydroid is one of the few golden frames who has a kit of 4 solid and usable abilities. 

 

Banshee has genuine utility now and Ash is probably the only raw-damage frame I've seen done right, and when all his powers work accordingly (they're still somewhat inconsistent) he totally wrecks higher level missions where he used to flounder around uselessly with his only advantage being the edgy cool factor. 

 

Nyx still needs her psychic bolts addressed and Nova's other three powers are still broken. Null-Star no-longer staggers, Antimatter drop no-longer slows down for players to shoot, and her wormhole is still incredibly finicky and imprecise most of the time.

 

Yet at the very least, the most recent work put into the Frames makes me think DE is finally beginning to understand a little about what's actually going on in their own game and what players are needing here, unfortunately these frame-reworks are slow going and likely won't make up for all the other myriad of long-present flaws present in the game, but it's a start. -sigh-

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I'm going to trim this down, but I need to address specific things.

 

Sure, the circumstances under which these choices would be anything other than ill-adivsable are ridiculously specific and highly unlikely, but that doesn't mean a player would never want to make that choice for one reason or another. 

 

If they do one of those things and then regret it, then they have learned. Before prime trading was announced, I sold off a bunch of prime parts. I did not come here and make a thread complaining that the game allowed me to make bad decisions. Oops. Once a player is at a point when those normally bad choices become good, I would hope they have learned much more about the game by then and can make those decisions appropriately.

 

...how is that fun? How is that more beneficial to the gameplay experience than simply making it possible to kill the boss with a melee weapon? Are you trying to say that simply being invulnerable to a specific type of damage should be one of the traits that distinguishes a boss as unique? Are you serious? That's limiting creativity with half-assed excuses, not expanding it.

 

Yes, having a Warframe drop at some point after a boss that could only be defeated with that Warframe would be bad design. Designing bosses that rely on equipment that is not necessarily available to a player is also bad design. In this instance it is mods, not weapons, but that doesn't change the fact that mods are randomly distributed, and that the availability of critically important mods has been an ongoing issue for new players for as long as I can remember.  Integrating gameplay elements that are in any way dependent on random chance or the availability of equipment that can't be guaranteed is bad design. It's that simple. 

You want Tyl Regor to be a melee boss? That's great; so do I. Do you mean to tell me that the player shouldn't be able to use guns on him? That sounds pretty stupid. There is no defensible reason as to why enemies or bosses which are completely immune to any type of damage should be introduced. Ospreys in Corpus missions are poor analogies because it is possible to destroy them with melee weapons. Do you see me asking for some sort of disabling mechanic added to them to make doing so easier? No. And you won't see me ask for that either. Is it needlessly difficult to take them out with a sword compared to shooting them down with a gun? Yes, but that's not a problem, because it's not impossible. 

 

It's fun because it gives players a challenge to overcome. I have not suggested that a boss be invulnerable to anything and specifically said the opposite in the post you were replying to. Tyl could be a boss that one player can parry and counter, or tie up blocking his melee attacks while others shoot, or require players to outmaneuver to shoot solo, sliding one way while firing another. This will go especially well with his new hefty shield look. That makes him unique. That's multiple ways to engage the boss both multiplayer and solo, but it also means just shooting him from the front with a gun does nothing.

 

You want a better analogy? Orokin Shield Drones. They literally have no functioning melee hitbox, and they read as invalid targets for target-specific abilities. Do you seriously think that makes them interesting, fun, or unique?

 

I believe that's a known bug. It's not a better analogy, it's something that will be fixed. Until then, knowing it's a bug, you take a gun to destroy them.

 

It is not fine to have those enemies be completely immune in some way that cannot be circumvented. Lech Kril's backpack being invulnerable to melee does not make him unique. General Sargas Ruk being invulnerable to melee does not make him unique. Those fights are not made more interesting because they require firearms. The complete exclusion of melee combat is bad game design, in the same way that the complete exclusion of any other aspect of gameplay would be bad game design. 

 

I know for a fact that Ruk is not invulnerable to melee. I swear I have damaged those points with melee. If that's wrong, someone fooled me on it. You said it yourself. It is needlessly difficult but okay, because it's not impossible. The points are simply difficult to hit, unless something was done in an update I don't have yet. I can't confirm Kril's backpack.

 

This "but everything should be viable or it's bad design" is as bad as the "all weapons should be equal." Good design means things are different, that there is variety in the challenges players face, and that they have to put more thought into it. If you need more ammo for a boss, that means you conserve and use melee in the level leading up to the boss. If that means players need to make multiple attempts, they will learn.

 

People keep referencing the Souls games, but those are games that have no problem telling players that they are just screwed. I believe that challenge is what gives them their replayability and why they have such devoted fans. No moss, blowgun snipers in blight town? Just about every player will be starting over unless they had a build with enough HP to outlast the status effect. Players believing they are owed success is a blight on modern gaming.
 

I believe we're at a point where we simply have differing opinions on what makes a game enjoyable. If I had my way, the stalker would not be on the wiki and he would not send warning messages. There would be no weapon pack on the market. Nobody would be discussing him on the forum and he would not be in the codex. Nobody would ever acknowledge his existence. Maybe I just enjoy more challenge than you do. I like games with terrifying, unknown elements. I have more fun losing to the G3 when we're not ready for them than blowing through any given mission.

Edited June 8, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

If something is borderline required to make the game playable it should not take so long to aquire the flipping thing. 

 

I posted in support of another topic that said this. I like that Serration is a mod, but I think one should be given to players in the tutorial, along with hornet strike, pressure point, redirection, and vitality. It would give them the materials that a tutorial should teach them to use.

 

 

A feature that is entirely luck based on top of not actually being well explained.

 

That's why I said it was a bad idea.

 

 

This is the problem! Trading is the game, period, stop supporting this kind of thing.

 

No. Trading enables players to get around monetary barriers and circumvent RNG. It is good.

 

I was happy to get all the parts for my prime weapons by playing the game, but I was also able to get more inventory by selling off the parts I didn't need. Any player can get keys and sell parts to progress without feeling that they must pay money or quit playing.

 

If you think pay to win is bad, then trading is good. If people trade their way to having everything and feel they've then exhausted the game, it's a fate of their own creation.

 

 

Making a choice the game lets you make should not equal inability to accomplish your goal.

 

Another big issue, you need a safety net, you have to have just the right thing for just the right scenario or you will fail. Skill does not matter, this is bad.

 

Directly contradictory. You're just asking DE to provide your safety net for you so you don't need to figure it out. I would rather create my own. If I make the wrong decision, I want to be unable to accomplish my goal. It's not a permanent impediment. It's a mission that can be easily replayed.

 

I would rather succeed where I could have failed, or even fail where I could have succeeded, than succeed with no possibility of failure. If I fail, I will come back with a better plan to address what I was not able to accomplish the last time. It will be more rewarding when I win, because I lost.

 

If you feel differently about it, we will just have to accept we have different tastes in our hobby.

Edited June 8, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[notlamprey]

Still thinking about how much I would love the idea of player focus groups.

 

The burning question would be "Who gets in on that, and how?"

[MageMeat]

First off, fantastic post. You've put into words what I haven't been able to say for several months now and best of all people are listening to you.

I will continue reading and bumping this thread if it does indeed need bumped, and I think you should be proud of what you've accomplished here.

 

I've never seen an otherwise thoroughly divided community come together in such universal agreement with few misunderstandings inbetween that have thusfar been kept within civil means. If I could take every upvote I've made on these forums and re-donate them to your first post, I certainly would without hesitation.

 

Thank the Void not Lotus who forakes us in our need for air... that someone has managed to make such a comprehensive thread that successfully pins every issue to the grind-wall. 

 

 

I think this is when a more fleshed out and less mod-based melee system would come in handy provided the map had enough places to utilize the parkour system to close any aerial gaps, but this too would require the games clunky parkour be further fleshed out and built upon...without making us equip new warframe mods to take advantage of any of the new features. 

 

Getting tired of you doing that DE. 

 

The only thing that's been done lately that's given me some hope is Hydroid and the most recent Warframe reworks. 

 

It's finally beginning to feel like DE are grasping the reality of how these Warframes actually interact with enemies beyond level five. 

 

Hydroid is this fantastic mix of chaotic crowd control that can be cast in such a way as to keep half a chamber full of enemies staggering around on their back while getting jostled by water volleys, dunked in puddles, caught in waves, and slapped by tentacles. Everything he does scales very well into late-game. All in all, Hydroid is one of the few golden frames who has a kit of 4 solid and usable abilities. 

 

Banshee has genuine utility now and Ash is probably the only raw-damage frame I've seen done right, and when all his powers work accordingly (they're still somewhat inconsistent) he totally wrecks higher level missions where he used to flounder around uselessly with his only advantage being the edgy cool factor. 

 

Nyx still needs her psychic bolts addressed and Nova's other three powers are still broken. Null-Star no-longer staggers, Antimatter drop no-longer slows down for players to shoot, and her wormhole is still incredibly finicky and imprecise most of the time.

 

Yet at the very least, the most recent work put into the Frames makes me think DE is finally beginning to understand a little about what's actually going on in their own game and what players are needing here, unfortunately these frame-reworks are slow going and likely won't make up for all the other myriad of long-present flaws present in the game, but it's a start. -sigh-

Yes, they're seemingly learning about what the Warframes themselves need to meet to be interesting and viable.

And yet, look at all the other problems that must be overcome. Viability for solo gameplay. Viability of melee only. Gaps between noobs and veterans. Scaling that is almost reaching a FUBAR level of fail. Lore. Legitimate endgame content. Skill based play. Basic communication between dev teams. Keeping players satisfied for more than a day.

I don't know if I can trust the developers with handling these problems (and there are many more left unlisted), but until that day, I'll quietly wait and attempt to support the game's growth.

 

EDIT: I need to have this upvoted so I can save it for the next devstream.

Edited June 8, 2014 by MageMeat

[Eyeless]

Yes, they're seemingly learning about what the Warframes themselves need to meet to be interesting and viable.

And yet, look at all the other problems that must be overcome. Viability for solo gameplay. Viability of melee only. Gaps between noobs and veterans. Scaling that is almost reaching a FUBAR level of fail. Lore. Legitimate endgame content. Skill based play. Basic communication between dev teams. Keeping players satisfied for more than a day.

I don't know if I can trust the developers with handling these problems (and there are many more left unlisted), but until that day, I'll quietly wait and attempt to support the game's growth.

 

Well said. Again, the recent progress on the frames themselves, which is a large part of what makes Warframe...Warframe, shows that lately DE have been going about certain things with open eyes. 

 

Now if only they'd take a look at the bigger picture, what makes a game fun, [size=1]shock traps are not FUN DE![/size] and start systematically knocking down these issues at a steady pace. 

 

We're probably a long way off from that, so until then I too shall wait, playing some sessions here and there, skimming the forums every now and then, and trying to find fun with the game where I can. Until then there's fantastic posts like the OP started that we can only hope has been read and understood by DE.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Hastur609

[DiabolusUrsus]

I'm going to trim this down, but I need to address specific things.

 

 

If they do one of those things and then regret it, then they have learned. Before prime trading was announced, I sold off a bunch of prime parts. I did not come here and make a thread complaining that the game allowed me to make bad decisions. Oops. Once a player is at a point when those normally bad choices become good, I would hope they have learned much more about the game by then and can make those decisions appropriately.

 

 

It's fun because it gives players a challenge to overcome. I have not suggested that a boss be invulnerable to anything and specifically said the opposite in the post you were replying to. Tyl could be a boss that one player can parry and counter, or tie up blocking his melee attacks while others shoot, or require players to outmaneuver to shoot solo, sliding one way while firing another. This will go especially well with his new hefty shield look. That makes him unique. That's multiple ways to engage the boss both multiplayer and solo, but it also means just shooting him from the front with a gun does nothing.

 

 

I believe that's a known bug. It's not a better analogy, it's something that will be fixed. Until then, knowing it's a bug, you take a gun to destroy them.

 

 

I know for a fact that Ruk is not invulnerable to melee. You said it yourself. It is needlessly difficult but okay, because it's not impossible. The points are simply difficult to hit, unless something was done in an update I don't have yet. I can't confirm Kril's backpack.

 

This "but everything should be viable or it's bad design" is as bad as the "all weapons should be equal." Good design means things are different, that there is variety in the challenges players face, and that they have to put more thought into it. If you need more ammo for a boss, that means you conserve and use melee in the level leading up to the boss. If that means players need to make multiple attempts, they will learn.

 

People keep referencing the Souls games, but those are games that have no problem telling players that they are just screwed. I believe that challenge is what gives them their replayability and why they have such devoted fans. No moss, blowgun snipers in blight town? Just about every player will be starting over unless they had a build with enough HP to outlast the status effect. Players believing they are owed success is a blight on modern gaming.

 

I believe we're at a point where we simply have differing opinions on what makes a game enjoyable. If I had my way, the stalker would not be on the wiki and he would not send warning messages. There would be no weapon pack on the market. Nobody would be discussing him on the forum and he would not be in the codex. Nobody would ever acknowledge his existence. Maybe I just enjoy more challenge than you do.

 

I'm going to ignore the fact that you just brushed off the actual intent of everything I just said, and let you leave it at "we have a difference of opinion."  

 

You've said that things being impossible is bad, yet you're defending bosses that are invulnerable to melee. So impossibility is bad, except when it applies to the possibility of killing a boss in melee. Interesting. Because that's all I'm asking for here; bosses that are not impossible to kill in melee. If a challenge is impossible, it's not a challenge. 

 

YES, the Orokin Drone is a better analogy, because it is an enemy that is immune to two different types of damage! THAT is what you're advocating here. Except you're saying that it shouldn't be a bug, it should be designed that way. Do you see how nonsensical that is? Enemies that are simply immune to one or more types of damage are in no way more fun or unique. So stop trying to suggest that melee shouldn't be a feasible boss strategy because it makes them more fun or unique. That's. Not. True! 

 

Sargas Ruk is not invulnerable to melee? You coulda fooled me! You care to enlighten me as to which melee weapons using which stances happen to be able to connect properly with his weak point hitboxes? Or are you talking the Glaive and the Kestrel, because those are not the same thing. Unless it's possible to hit him with every single melee weapon, we're back to the same old issue of simply having the right equipment. 

 

Where, where, where did I say that all strategies should be equally viable? I believe I specifically stated that it would be fine for melee to be much more difficult, or vice-versa, provided it was still an option. Still possible. The whole point of having a melee weapon beyond the fact that it's interesting and fun is that it is a safety net of infinite ammunition. What good is that infinite ammunition if the one time you need it it happens to be useless? Once again, bad design.

 

The Souls series, in spite of all the public opinion surrounding it, never ever ever simply tells players that they are screwed. Out of moss against blowdart snipers in Blighttown? Go back to Darkroot Basin which you can't not access by the time you reach Blighttown (even if you got there using the Master Key) and kill the enemies that drop moss every other kill. Alternatively use spells or a bow and arrow and play peek-a-boo around a corner with them until you kill them all. Go figure, the Blowdart Snipers don't respawn. Don't wanna use ranged attacks? It's still possible to dodge their darts (exceedingly difficult, yes, but possible,) or even failing that, brute-forcing your way through and killing one sniper each time in a suicide rush. You are never "screwed" in Dark Souls. Each and every challenge is surpassable  through sheer force of will. In many cases, you are rewarded for doing so, like getting the Demon's Great Hammer  for defeating the Asylum Demon on your first trip through the arena. 

 

Where, oh where did you get the idea that I think players are owed success? I never said that. I never suggested that. I'm saying that they are owed a chance at success, and that is simply part of good game design. As such, bosses (and normal enemies) should be designed in such a way that it is reasonably possible to overcome them using only melee or playing solo. This does not mean gimping bosses to make using melee roughly equivalent to using firearms.

 

You simply prefer more of a challenge? Your definition of "challenge" sounds like everyone else's definition of "punishment." Being left unprepared for things you can't predict is not part of overcoming a challenge. Learning from mistakes is definitely a good thing, but "My equipment makes this absolutely impossible" is not a reasonable mistake to make. 

[Noble_Cactus]

I'm going to trim this down, but I need to address specific things.

 

 

If they do one of those things and then regret it, then they have learned. Before prime trading was announced, I sold off a bunch of prime parts. I did not come here and make a thread complaining that the game allowed me to make bad decisions. Oops. Once a player is at a point when those normally bad choices become good, I would hope they have learned much more about the game by then and can make those decisions appropriately.

 

 

It's fun because it gives players a challenge to overcome. I have not suggested that a boss be invulnerable to anything and specifically said the opposite in the post you were replying to. Tyl could be a boss that one player can parry and counter, or tie up blocking his melee attacks while others shoot, or require players to outmaneuver to shoot solo, sliding one way while firing another. This will go especially well with his new hefty shield look. That makes him unique. That's multiple ways to engage the boss both multiplayer and solo, but it also means just shooting him from the front with a gun does nothing.

 

 

I believe that's a known bug. It's not a better analogy, it's something that will be fixed. Until then, knowing it's a bug, you take a gun to destroy them.

 

 

I know for a fact that Ruk is not invulnerable to melee. I swear I have damaged those points with melee. If that's wrong, someone fooled me on it. You said it yourself. It is needlessly difficult but okay, because it's not impossible. The points are simply difficult to hit, unless something was done in an update I don't have yet. I can't confirm Kril's backpack.

 

This "but everything should be viable or it's bad design" is as bad as the "all weapons should be equal." Good design means things are different, that there is variety in the challenges players face, and that they have to put more thought into it. If you need more ammo for a boss, that means you conserve and use melee in the level leading up to the boss. If that means players need to make multiple attempts, they will learn.

 

People keep referencing the Souls games, but those are games that have no problem telling players that they are just screwed. I believe that challenge is what gives them their replayability and why they have such devoted fans. No moss, blowgun snipers in blight town? Just about every player will be starting over unless they had a build with enough HP to outlast the status effect. Players believing they are owed success is a blight on modern gaming.

 

I believe we're at a point where we simply have differing opinions on what makes a game enjoyable. If I had my way, the stalker would not be on the wiki and he would not send warning messages. There would be no weapon pack on the market. Nobody would be discussing him on the forum and he would not be in the codex. Nobody would ever acknowledge his existence. Maybe I just enjoy more challenge than you do. I like games with terrifying, unknown elements. I have more fun losing to the G3 when we're not ready for them than blowing through any given mission.

 

Again, I don't think anyone is asking for success to be handed on them on a silver platter. Nor is anyone asking for all approaches or all weapons to be on equal footing. Bumping up your HP to outlast a status effect isn't comparable to restricting an entire gameplay style, with its own structure and rules. Not only that, but it's one that was advertised as being some kind of new generation of combat ("The Sword Alone"). What you are forgetting (or rather, what you are acknowledging but are promptly brushing aside when you return to talking about Warframe) is degrees of viability. 

 

From what I understand, I enjoy many of the same kinds of challenge that you do. Players should understand that they take a huge risk by fighting the Stalker or the G3 in melee combat, because one wrong move will kill or incap them. But that's the point. They're allowed to take that risk, and if they fail, they either need more skill or need to figure out what went wrong next time they attempt that feat. Or they can go back to using guns, which are much safer. Either approach can entertain certain players. Just that one will be more viable than the other. And that's fine.

 

I can see where you're coming from though. Maybe a player is leveling up their non-potatoed Lv13 Single Ether and suddenly the G3 invades. What choice do they have other than running away or furiously whacking at the invaders with their wimpy weapon? They don't have much of a chance. Tough S#&$. And I think that's fine too, because the player understood the risks inherent in bringing underleveled gear into a mission, and they could have prevented that by playing it safe and bringing a formad weapon into their grinding run, even if it would have cut into their exp gain.

 

Hard locking multiple bosses from being hit by an entire weapon class is, in my opinion, not fine. I think having one boss that would make melee/gunplay attempts completely foolish like Tyl Regor would be okay, because that would be their gimmick. But when you have multiple bosses running around that clearly weren't made for melee (especially one introduced in the Melee 2.0 update), that kind of diminshes the assets that went into making that new combat system.

 

-

 

Only thing I completely don't agree with you about is removing Stalker from the wiki.  If you wanted to retain the element of surprise, you would have to scour the Internet for any discussion about the Stalker, and permaban everyone who even mentioned that he exists on these forums. We don't live in an age anymore where you don't have easy access to knowledge about a game. In fact, it hasn't been that way for a looooooooong time, if ever. It's just easier to access that same information now. Recently I dug up some print outs for a few Sega Genesis, NES and SNES games that went over how to perform fatalities in Mortal Kombat, among other maps and guides. Not to mention the various phone services you could contact or the books you could buy if you needed help on some part of a game or wanted to find out about its secrets. So erasing any mention of the Stalker from the wiki is just silly. In fact, I'd argue the knowledge that you know he's there adds to the tension that you might encounter him. That possibility instills in the player a sense of paranoia if you're using an underleveled frame... that is, it would if he weren't such a chump.

 

But that's neither here nor there.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Hard locking multiple bosses from being hit by an entire weapon class is, in my opinion, not fine. I think having one boss that would make melee/gunplay attempts completely foolish like Tyl Regor would be okay, because that would be their gimmick. But when you have multiple bosses running around that clearly weren't made for melee (especially one introduced in the Melee 2.0 update), that kind of diminshes the assets that went into making that new combat system.

 

-

 

Only thing I completely don't agree with you about is removing Stalker from the wiki.  If you wanted to retain the element of surprise, you would have to scour the Internet for any discussion about the Stalker, and permaban everyone who even mentioned that he exists on these forums. We don't live in an age anymore where you don't have easy access to knowledge about a game. In fact, it hasn't been that way for a looooooooong time, if ever. It's just easier to access that same information now. Recently I dug up some print outs for a few Sega Genesis and SNES games that went over how to perform fatalities in Mortal Kombat, among other maps and guides. Not to mention the various phone services you could contact or the books you could buy if you needed help on some part of a game or wanted to find out about its secrets. So removing any mention of the Stalkers is just silly. In fact, I'd say the knowledge that you know he's there adds to the tension that you might encounter him. That possibility instills in the player a sense of paranoia if you're using an underleveled frame... that is, it would if he weren't such a chump.

 

But it's neither here nor there.

 

Yes, there should be degrees of it. I doubt that melee will be possible against the new J3 golem, and it certainly isn't against Lephantis. Part of what gets me into Warframe is the preparation and building to achieve success. I want more of that, and it means penalizing things to create challenge and get players to adapt.

 

The stalker thing? I know. It's just an example of the sort of thing I like. Spoiling the stalker for everyone cannot be undone. Ideally, though, a much more mysterious character. It's an idealization, not something that could actually be put into practice.

 

 

YES, the Orokin Drone is a better analogy, because it is an enemy that is immune to two different types of damage! THAT is what you're advocating here. Except you're saying that it shouldn't be a bug, it should be designed that way. 

 

No, I'm not. I said it will be fixed and until then players can make up for DE's failure.

 

And I'm tired of you misrepresenting what I've been saying and complaining about how unreasonable it is. This will be the last reply I bother giving you.

 

 

Sargas Ruk is not invulnerable to melee? You coulda fooled me! You care to enlighten me as to which melee weapons using which stances happen to be able to connect properly with his weak point hitboxes? Or are you talking the Glaive and the Kestrel, because those are not the same thing. Unless it's possible to hit him with every single melee weapon, we're back to the same old issue of simply having the right equipment. 

 

Where, where, where did I say that all strategies should be equally viable? I believe I specifically stated that it would be fine for melee to be much more difficult, or vice-versa, provided it was still an option. Still possible. The whole point of having a melee weapon beyond the fact that it's interesting and fun is that it is a safety net of infinite ammunition. What good is that infinite ammunition if the one time you need it it happens to be useless? Once again, bad design.

 

The Souls series, in spite of all the public opinion surrounding it, never ever ever simply tells players that they are screwed. Out of moss against blowdart snipers in Blighttown? Go back to Darkroot Basin which you can't not access by the time you reach Blighttown (even if you got there using the Master Key) and kill the enemies that drop moss every other kill. Alternatively use spells or a bow and arrow and play peek-a-boo around a corner with them until you kill them all. Go figure, the Blowdart Snipers don't respawn. Don't wanna use ranged attacks? It's still possible to dodge their darts (exceedingly difficult, yes, but possible,) or even failing that, brute-forcing your way through and killing one sniper each time in a suicide rush. You are never "screwed" in Dark Souls. Each and every challenge is surpassable  through sheer force of will. In many cases, you are rewarded for doing so, like getting the Demon's Great Hammer  for defeating the Asylum Demon on your first trip through the arena.

 

Your solution is to fail and come back with a better plan and the right items, exactly like I've been saying.

 

You're dealing with enemies that respawn each time you start the mission in warframe though, so the brute force method doesn't work. You know that.

 

 

Where, oh where did you get the idea that I think players are owed success? I never said that. I never suggested that. I'm saying that they are owed a chance at success, and that is simply part of good game design. As such, bosses (and normal enemies) should be designed in such a way that it is reasonably possible to overcome them using only melee or playing solo. This does not mean gimping bosses to make using melee roughly equivalent to using firearms.

 

You simply prefer more of a challenge? Your definition of "challenge" sounds like everyone else's definition of "punishment." Being left unprepared for things you can't predict is not part of overcoming a challenge. Learning from mistakes is definitely a good thing, but "My equipment makes this absolutely impossible" is not a reasonable mistake to make. 

 

From all the whining. It's all over the forums about things being too hard and every airheaded plan not working. Every weapon should work? Even the ones you know won't reach higher weak points? But you know they won't work when you start. And if you don't know it, you learn it and do better next time.

 

A challenge that you just have to try a little harder at but can be accomplished with anything is not a challenge, it's a participation trophy. It's masturbatory. It's a game not worth my time because I can win without any thought. I've got more than enough mechanical skill to play anything that's put in front of me. It's the thinking side that gets me involved.

Edited June 8, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[DiabolusUrsus]

And I'm tired of you misrepresenting what I've been saying and complaining about how unreasonable it is. This will be the last reply I bother giving you.

 

Your solution is to fail and come back with a better plan and the right items, exactly like I've been saying.

 

You're dealing with enemies that respawn each time you start the mission though, so the brute force method doesn't work. You know that.

 

From all the whining. It's all over the forums about things being too hard and every airheaded plan not working. Every weapon should work? Even the ones you know won't reach higher weak points? But you know they won't work when you start. And if you don't know it, you learn it and do better next time.

 

A challenge that you just have to try a little harder at but can be accomplished with anything is not a challenge, it's a participation trophy. It's masturbatory. It's a game not worth my time because I can win without any thought. I've got more than enough mechanical skill to play anything that's put in front of me. It's the thinking side that gets me involved.

 

You may not be suggesting that the Drone shouldn't be a bug, but you are most definitely suggesting that bosses shouldn't be considered bugged when they are invulnerable to an entire class of weapons. I listed an unintended instance of damage type invulnerability as a demonstration of how decisively un-fun it is. It's not an insurmountable problem, true, but do you think that there are more than a few people out there who would prefer that they remain as-is? Yet you're suggesting the same sort of properties - specific damage type immunity - should be factored into upcoming boss fights as a means of introducing diversity. That's not me misrepresenting your ideas, that's you failing to comprehend a linear analogy. The Orokin Drone is a perfect representation of potentially bringing equipment into an encounter that makes success absolutely impossible. This is because of a bug that you acknowledge needs to be fixed. Yet you have been suggesting that when integrated into boss encounters, this sort of gameplay would be unique, fun, and interesting. Okay. 

 

Ignoring the fact that you just made a claim regarding a boss that was completely false, yes, most enemies in Dark Souls respawn when you rest at bonfires. No, Blowdart Snipers do not respawn the way other enemies do. They spawn once per playthrough. If you played the game, you should know that. Once you kill one, it's gone until NG+, or NG++, so on and so forth. Yes, brute force will work, because the enemies that provide players with that severe of a challenge are one-off foes that vanish once defeated. Only the typical mooks that can be defeated by learning simple patterns respawn. 

 

The point here is that yes, failing and then trying again is part of the process, but it's failure that is dependent upon user skill, not dependent upon what equipment they happened to bring to the fight. Every single one of the listed strategies will work against the snipers, but you're trying to suggest that going back and farming up moss clumps is the only viable solution. Such is not the case, nor should it be. 

 

Wait, wait, wait, hold up a second. You're drawing conclusions concerning my position on this particular issue based on ideas and opinions expressed in other threads? What? And I'm the one misrepresenting what is being said? Even in the other threads where I supported divergence from weapon tiering and the introduction of sidegrade weapons, not once did I advocate players being owed success. I never said that success should be easy, or anything even remotely similar to guaranteed. Where did I say players would only need to try a little harder to succeed? I believe the words I used were "a greater expenditure of effort and demonstration of skill." I made no mention of the quantity of said effort, and if you actually read the rest of what I had to say you should have seen that one of the examples I gave of a preferable setup involved one approach being substantially more difficult than the others. The logical conclusion to draw from that is most definitely not "every strategy should be equally viable!"

 

So I'm terribly sorry that I am not worth responding to when you've been entirely off-point and continually projecting ideas I never actually supported onto what I have to say this entire time. You have my unwavering apologies for shamelessly shoving words int your mouth. Because I'm totally asking for the game to be made easier when part of the original post's conclusion was that we the players wanted more of a challenge, provided it was a well-designed challenge. That makes perfect sense. 

[Wolfstorm18]

Eximus, "a bit more difficult to kill". 

 

Eximus, "have annoying abilites". 

 

Didnt even read the rest of the wall of text. 

 

 

[BlueSabre]

So, I have come up with a plan of how to get the idea across....We can construct this device everywhere...and DE will listen...haha

 

Yuri explain...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZBnFBE-tp8

 

 

Oh my god I love you. I haven't played that game in years.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Noble_Cactus]

Yes, there should be degrees of it. I doubt that melee will be possible against the new J3 golem, and it certainly isn't against Lephantis. Part of what gets me into Warframe is the preparation and building to achieve success. I want more of that, and it means penalizing things to create challenge and get players to adapt.

 

The stalker thing? I know. It's just an example of the sort of thing I like. Spoiling the stalker for everyone cannot be undone. Ideally, though, a much more mysterious character. It's an idealization, not something that could actually be put into practice.

 

 

Right, right. I see what you mean.

 

The actual application of that prep time is rather dull, but I do agree that some of the enjoyment comes from personalizing a loadout.

 

-

 

Unrelated to the topic of meleeing bosses, I wanted to link a video showing off parkour and melee combat that is far more smooth and fluid than WF's... and it's in early development. Done by a team of what I think is four people. It makes Wf's parkour look clunky and crude in comparison.

 

 

WF would be awesome with this kind of movement. And it's not a matter of "Well Overgrowth is a different game!" This is basic movement that could (going off assumptions here) be worked into WF's existing system. Too bad it will never happen.

 

Why'd I link this here? Nowhere else to put it and I wanted to get the idea out there. If there's a parkour thread I don't know about I'd appreciate a link. Actually, I'll go look for one right now.

 

EDIT: Found one. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/241174-so-when-are-we-getting-better-movement/

Edited June 8, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[taiiat]

pretty much sums it up well.

 

don't think i could have said it better myself.

 

 

 

but i have been trying to say similar things for so many months. the entire Gaming Industry is freaking gold. you can see what worked, what didn't work, what people liked, and what they didn't like.

 

this is literally billions of dollars of research at your fingertips. by now, we KNOW what is good, and what's terrible. there's always new ground to break, but we know what people have tried before, and we also know why it failed or succeeded. 

 

Digital Extremes, you don't need to do this alone, and trying to is suicide.

look at what other people have done in the past. there's SO MUCH information.

 

and at the very least, we know what is good, and what could theoretically be good, but the way was executed in that attempt wasn't.

 

there's even veterans of the Industry that have taken it upon themselves to express what's good, what's bad, and how to go about things, and more. and there's that big one that you guys should be referencing all the time.

 

 

 

RNG is bad and player agency is bad(for the most part).

 - often randomness can be bad, depends on situation, it can also be amazing.

 

- wat. player agency is never bad, that's a crucial part of Video Games. i hope you either mean there's little Player Agency in Warframe or you're just being cynical. 

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

I wish i could upvote your post multiple times, great post!

In my opinion nothing gonna change, why? Because until DE gets our money to their pocket, they simply don't give a dan about ongoing issues with warframe, maybe it seems bitter but i think this is true, i've been here for months and i saw and still see how DE works with the game problems, bandaid fix over bandaid fix...

 

If DE doesn't focus on a core mechanics this game die sooner than later which is a real shame because we all saw/see great potential in Warframe. I know that for DE primarily focus is to making profit, but they can also earn money i mean like more money when playerbase is happy but not frustrated.

 

I don't know what should i add to my post i feel completely burnt out and disappointed. I wish you guys the best may the yours voice finally be heard.

 

P.S Sorry for my broken english.

[Noble_Cactus]

I wish i could upvote your post multiple times, great post!

In my opinion nothing gonna change, why? Because until DE gets our money to their pocket, they simply don't give a dan about ongoing issues with warframe, maybe it seems bitter but i think this is true, i've been here for months and i saw and still see how DE works with the game problems, bandaid fix over bandaid fix...

 

If DE doesn't focus on a core mechanics this game die sooner than later which is a real shame because we all saw/see great potential in Warframe. I know that for DE primarily focus is to making profit, but they can also earn money i mean like more money when playerbase is happy but not frustrated.

 

I don't know what should i add to my post i feel completely burnt out and disappointed. I wish you guys the best may the yours voice finally be heard.

 

P.S Sorry for my broken english.

 

Don't worry, your English is solid.

 

Yeah, unfortunately I feel like a lot of the promising ideas we hear about on stream get scrapped or cut in half due to time constraints. I remember Scott or Steve talking about the possibility of creating your own combos in Melee 2.0 with moves that you find (in the form of mods), and that they were toying with the idea of a training room. Yet that would be hard to implement without taking the hours and hours required to make sure that combo finishers flowed with pre-set attack chains, and so we got the Fisher Price version: canned combos. Which actually reduces weapon variety, because all weapons of a particular class all use the same two combos now.

 

Ex] Zorens, Ichors, and Kamas use dual swords even though they look nothing like swords, and the only thing differentiating these three weapons and the rest of the Dual Swords class from each other is their stats. 

 

It's Fisher Price after Fish Price after Fisher Price when it comes to updates. And I don't expect Kubrows to be any different.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Beladric]

Don't worry, your English is solid.

 

Yeah, unfortunately I feel like a lot of the promising ideas we hear about on stream get scrapepd or cut in half due to time constraints. I remember Scott or Steve talking about the possibility of creating your own combos in Melee 2.0 with moves that you find (in the form of mods), and that they were toying with the idea of a training room. Yet that would be hard to implement without taking the hours and hours required to make sure that combo finishers flowed with pre-set attack chains, and so we got the Fisher Price version: canned combos. Which actually reduces weapon variety, because all weapons of a particular class all use the same two combos now.

 

Ex] Zorens, Ichors, and Kamas use dual swords even though they look nothing like swords, and the only thing differentiating these three weapons and the rest of the Dual Swords class from each other is their stats. 

 

It's Fisher Price after Fish Price after Fisher Price when it comes to updates. And I don't expect Kubrows to be any different.

 

Can we not discuss Kubrows. They... make me feel a lot of things, none of them good anymore.

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

Don't worry, your English is solid.

 

Yeah, unfortunately I feel like a lot of the promising ideas we hear about on stream get scrapepd or cut in half due to time constraints. I remember Scott or Steve talking about the possibility of creating your own combos in Melee 2.0 with moves that you find (in the form of mods), and that they were toying with the idea of a training room. Yet that would be hard to implement without taking the hours and hours required to make sure that combo finishers flowed with pre-set attack chains, and so we got the Fisher Price version: canned combos. Which actually reduces weapon variety, because all weapons of a particular class all use the same two combos now.

 

Ex] Zorens, Ichors, and Kamas use dual swords even though they look nothing like swords, and the only thing differentiating these three weapons and the rest of the Dual Swords class from each other is their stats. 

 

It's Fisher Price after Fish Price after Fisher Price when it comes to updates. And I don't expect Kubrows to be any different.

Thanks :)

 

Yeah that's also a big problem making a big hype and then when update show up what we got is another dissapointed.

 

I mean DE shouldn't build hype when they are not sure if something will be in game (i remember that i saw chart about what DE promised).

 

In warframe we have like hundreds of weapons good amount of warframes yet almost all of them feels like reskined versions of already existing items. I have more fun with guns in ME3MP, same with character. What i'm trying to say is that we don't need million weapons/warframes/mods, what we need is a complete "customization" overhaul, because i feel that i have more customization options in ME3MP that now in Warframe...

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Oh my god I love you. I haven't played that game in years.

Had to bring it back...its the epitome of a epic challenging game...thanks XD

[cnileoleman]

Things we need:

Evasion 2.0 (Seriously, the only thing I ever dodge are ancients and butchers/ other grineer melee)

Parkour 2.0 (Sometimes I drop and absorb the impact and sometimes I roll off a cliff. Wat)

Stealth 1.0  (Roller sees me and somehow alerts everybody. All of my nope.)

....everything really. I really wish DE would stick to what they say. I remember that Dark Sectors (then known as Badlands) were going to be places "filled with new enemies and rare resources" not filled with pretty much normal enemies and the resources you get by going to that planet anyway.

 

Then there are the blatant flaws in enemy mechanics. For instance, when I deliver a flying kick to a heavy's face that knocks them over, why can they activate their ground pound while flat on their a**? I'm a tenno, and when I'm knocked over I can't do s***!

 

My setup pretty much resigns me to solo play. How exactly am I supposed to get Argon? Several void exterminates yielded nothing (usually quitting before I actually used up the key). I changed directions and set about hunting down prosecutors, to fight vay hek, to find argon. They only spawn consistently on defence missions. Thank you, DE. To this day I have yet to see a guardsman. If I saw a prosecutor I'd likely sh** myself.

 

Oh, and about melee 2.0; Most of my melee weapons are swords. Just try to guess how many compatible stance mods I've found. I'll try praying to RNGsus.