New Content With A Side Of Nerf, Please

[DaWolv]

I am stating the truth of what your idea is. It is the easy way out. You say the game is too easy, but out of the majority of "online" games you play in how many are rushing to extract when grineer/corpus enemies are lvl 25 and up bleeding other player's characters out pretty badly? Unless your always rolling with your buds with top gear or something. Or soloing missions by yourself in which case enemies spawns match. 

 

So, tell me actually how many of the actual player base is actually on the forums vets vs newplayer/mid-level? 

 

I see lots of players rushing for extract to get away from enemies more than fighting them, unless they are in their direct path, or within reasonable distance. Instead they rush towards extract bleeding out all the way in literally some to most cases. 

 

If 60-70% of players are running away from lvl 25 enemies or dying in the process...what makes you think the games not difficult? If I have over lots of hours in a game and have good stuff doesn't mean the game doesn't present a challenge. I still see people dying in levels that are presumably "easy"

 

I think the forums are one sided in this matter as the other player base isn't being considered.

 

Infested faction needs a buff add content instead of taking it away...maybe you will be thinking twice about doing so when your massed by tough enemies that doesn't take much to bleed/kill you lvl25-40 do that pretty well with grineer/corpus. If you don't have a way to recoup health in certian missions you best finish it quick. In some cases doesn't matter how much health you recoup the damage done with status procs negates it. Sounds like a one sided approach to the matter.

 

I guess we will have to wait and see what the new enemy types bring - dificulty-wise.

Although I still think bringing the damage-ceiling down and rebalancing the game accordingly would do away with most of what is plagueing the game:

 

1) Low-Level missions being to easy for well equipped players.

2) Standart builds without variation for almost all weapons.

3) Defenses and Survivals taking forever to become challanging.

 

________________________________________________

 

I actually have to say I roll with friends and clanmates most of the time, and when I don't I rarely see people die.

To that point, they are not the people who would be affected by the nerfs anyway. What I'm proposing is making everyone pay more attention in a mission: Why do I need to put on mods to raise my defense? When I'm playing with a weapon that kills everything in one shot and I am not completely incapable of aiming, I mostly never even get hit, and if I get hit, my 200-ish shields absorb it anyway.

 

The nerf I'm proposing is not to cripple low-level play, its to narrow the distinction from high and low level to make all corners of the game viable again.

 

For instance, when I need Neural Sensors, I have no choices: I can either go into Tower Missions or other high-end Nightmares to have a challange, or I run the boss that dies in two hits to get the loot I need, to build Items that trivialize the Tower Missions and the Nightmares as well...

It's an arms race thats constantly being added to (just look at the overpowered Event mods) - I propose a subtraction

[Lost_Cartographer]

Do like you hinted in the beginning: opt to gimp yourself.  There, a part of the challenge is fixed for you, and you had all the power in the world to do it.  Believing that you shouldn't have to is misplaced pride.  Horrifically misplaced might I add.

[DSpite]

There is zero reason to throw the nerf hammer at the game as a whole. If you seriously want challenge then request DE to add content that caters to that challenge. For example it would be TRIVIAL to implement maps that have the mechanic similar to Conclave (or whatever they are called) matches, where the players cant just bring out ultra-bling max-forma guns and instead would have to keep their frame, guns and mods below a "point" threshold, and that is where you might end up seeing rarely used mods finally being slotted in guns as they will have a lower point score then say a maxed Serration.

 

These missions could even drop new and special mods that fit well in those missions but not say, Void runs because of, well, less optimal dps there.

 

I've seen plenty of Paintball comps where they limit players to 10 shots mags in single shot guns, quick-change 12g gas fills, and force players to actually manage their gear rather then spray the field with 400 round hoppers and auto weapons. It works, and it is far more entertaining to watch.

 

Give the players missions that require planning, rather then just "bring your heaviest stuff" and the challenge will return, without smashing the existing mechanics to a pulp.

 

Oh yea, if this happens, we need more then the A-B-C presets, we will need D through to Z that save the frame itself and all the gear along with it :)

[Yefrign]

Imo all Warframe really needs is Spiral Knights level scaling.

 

In Spiral Knights a T4 guy with all that OP T4 gear can walk into a noob T1 mission and only be as effective as the maximum upgrades a said T1 noob could acquire in a T1 dungeon.

 

So basically. A Tenno of MR16 with a Nova can walk into mercury but she will have all her things nerfed to the maximuim power a Mercury noob could have at that time. 

 

Applying this to each planet on Warframe would make balancing so much easier and would help Veterans enjoy those awesome tilesets without a forma. Though this level scaling will not apply to Survival or Endless Defense because of the fact enemy level will just keep rising.

 

Spiral Knights... I miss that game.

 

 

but yeah that is a good way of doing it. or the Guild Wars 2 approach which scales you down to a similar level to that zone... while you still would be more powerful its not on the lines of complete overkill.

 

 

personally I dont mind going back to the early levels and steamroll my way through the levels... I usually do that on my own or with friends and IF some newbies do end up joining I change my playstyle to their pace to not ruin their experience.... I don't know I'm a weird person like that >.<

[NegimaSonic]

Imo all Warframe really needs is Spiral Knights level scaling.

 

In Spiral Knights a T4 guy with all that OP T4 gear can walk into a noob T1 mission and only be as effective as the maximum upgrades a said T1 noob could acquire in a T1 dungeon.

 

So basically. A Tenno of MR16 with a Nova can walk into mercury but she will have all her things nerfed to the maximuim power a Mercury noob could have at that time. 

 

Applying this to each planet on Warframe would make balancing so much easier and would help Veterans enjoy those awesome tilesets without a forma. Though this level scaling will not apply to Survival or Endless Defense because of the fact enemy level will just keep rising.

 

Oh...my...god. I've been thinking about this for some days and just finished a rough concept for it but I'm surprised to see this idea shared. I don't like doing ideas though because 99% waste of time and I don't even read that part of the forums myself, but screw it, I did this time.

EDIT: When I initially wrote this it was on general discussion, so I ended up here anyway >_>

Edited June 10, 2014 by NegimaSonic

[IfritKajiTora]

I am stating the truth of what your idea is. It is the easy way out. You say the game is too easy, but out of the majority of "online" games you play in how many are rushing to extract when grineer/corpus enemies are lvl 25 and up bleeding other player's characters out pretty badly? Unless your always rolling with your buds with top gear or something. Or soloing missions by yourself in which case enemies spawns match. 

 

So, tell me actually how many of the actual player base is actually on the forums vets vs newplayer/mid-level? 

 

I see lots of players rushing for extract to get away from enemies more than fighting them, unless they are in their direct path, or within reasonable distance. Instead they rush towards extract bleeding out all the way in literally some to most cases. 

 

If 60-70% of players are running away from lvl 25 enemies or dying in the process...what makes you think the games not difficult? If I have over lots of hours in a game and have good stuff doesn't mean the game doesn't present a challenge. I still see people dying in levels that are presumably "easy"

 

I think the forums are one sided in this matter as the other player base isn't being considered.

 

Infested faction needs a buff add content instead of taking it away...maybe you will be thinking twice about doing so when your massed by tough enemies that doesn't take much to bleed/kill you lvl25-40 do that pretty well with grineer/corpus. If you don't have a way to recoup health in certian missions you best finish it quick. In some cases doesn't matter how much health you recoup the damage done with status procs negates it. Sounds like a one sided approach to the matter.

so you are one of them, dying in them easy missions?

Sorry but these people could seems like they have high player rank but their weapons or warframes not because they maked a new one or just rushed player rank by exping and exping new new and new weapons and warframes. 15 player rank in 100 hours

Edited June 10, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[DaWolv]

There is zero reason to throw the nerf hammer at the game as a whole. If you seriously want challenge then request DE to add content that caters to that challenge. For example it would be TRIVIAL to implement maps that have the mechanic similar to Conclave (or whatever they are called) matches, where the players cant just bring out ultra-bling max-forma guns and instead would have to keep their frame, guns and mods below a "point" threshold, and that is where you might end up seeing rarely used mods finally being slotted in guns as they will have a lower point score then say a maxed Serration.

 

[...]

 

Oh yea, if this happens, we need more then the A-B-C presets, we will need D through to Z that save the frame itself and all the gear along with it :)

 

Well, I held the same believe for a while, but as you said below:

I'm not changing my loadout every mission I enter. This is far too much working the menues than actually playing the game.

This is the main reason I don't play Conclaves: trying out different mods to be as high inside, but not above the threshhold is annoying busy-work!

 

Do like you hinted in the beginning: opt to gimp yourself.  There, a part of the challenge is fixed for you, and you had all the power in the world to do it.  Believing that you shouldn't have to is misplaced pride.  Horrifically misplaced might I add.

 

See Above: I wouldn't mind gimping myself for some things, but I can't be bothered to rebuild my loadouts for every mission/weapon/warframe I enter, I then having to go back to the max-rank-super-über-build for when I go into T3 Survival for an hour+.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

____________________________________________

 

Anyway, leave comments please,

I'd love to see the feedback on this, since we are talking about nerfing things and this is the internet...

 

It is becoming more and more prevalent, power creep within the game making all content trivial. I've said elsewhere that the game needs a whole sale re balancing. The nerfs to Trinity, Nova, Rhino's IS, Frost's SG and removing Ember's Overheat were all steps in the right direction. 

 

However weapons and Mods are also the next big thing which needs looking at. I've said in another thread that..

 

Ironically, if DE actually started nerfing some of the most game breaking powerful weapons, Ogris' and Penta's stupid ammo capacity. Boltor Prime excessive damage, the description saying shorter range , which it doesn't have, given it's pinpoint accuracy. Soma's ridiculous 100 round magazine crit machine etc. etc.  Everyone who says that they need a challenge, would rend their garments and tear at their hair, proclaiming it's game over, just like they all did when Rhino IS got a nerf, Trinity, Frost's SG, Nova's MP. 

 

You want a challenge, so the game should therefore HP inflate to meet it ( AI improvement won't do a damn thing as every enemy will be ripped apart in seconds regardless) but, if people suggest toning down weapons so you get that challenge at lower lvls people act like you just went up and punched their sainted mother. 

 

How's that for irony. 

 

It's happening in this thread, where people have stated things don't need nerfs. Yes, yes they do. 

 

But more to the point, several things hurt the ability to balance the game, simply nerfing mods doesn't fix the problem, like the Damage 2.0 tables being completely out of balance -75% or +75% damage based on damage type is breathtakingly imbalanced, the same with armour scaling and the damage reduction. 

 

Hand in hand goes the RNG drops, they're beyond a joke now. Pure RNG is doomed to fail as the game expands and new content is added. The ridiculous ability mods being dropped constantly in game (why haven't they been removed yet, and no, I don't accept the reasoning DE gave, it's bad and ill thought out) While adjusting drop tables to take account of previous drops in the void (specifically Def. and Surv.) skewing them to allow a higher % chance for drops you've not already acquired in the match, rather than be stuck with 3 Ember Prime Helms. 

 

Much the same with resource drops in the Void, credit drops are still a thing, so are potato. Really?

 

The drops being based on enemy types rather than planets are also a problem, no one will bother with Ceres, Pluto Neptune etc as its easier to farm lower lvl planets endlessly, there's no incentive to farm higher lvl planets outside the void, and given it's largely easy due to the inflation of damage we are left with our current predicament. No difficulty or challenge within the game at all.

[DaWolv]

It is becoming more and more prevalent, power creep within the game making all content trivial. I've said elsewhere that the game needs a whole sale re balancing. The nerfs to Trinity, Nova, Rhino's IS, Frost's SG and removing Ember's Overheat were all steps in the right direction. 

 

However weapons and Mods are also the next big thing which needs looking at. I've said in another thread that..

 

Ironically, if DE actually started nerfing some of the most game breaking powerful weapons, Ogris' and Penta's stupid ammo capacity. Boltor Prime excessive damage, the description saying shorter range , which it doesn't have, given it's pinpoint accuracy. Soma's ridiculous 100 round magazine crit machine etc. etc.  Everyone who says that they need a challenge, would rend their garments and tear at their hair, proclaiming it's game over, just like they all did when Rhino IS got a nerf, Trinity, Frost's SG, Nova's MP. 

 

You want a challenge, so the game should therefore HP inflate to meet it ( AI improvement won't do a damn thing as every enemy will be ripped apart in seconds regardless) but, if people suggest toning down weapons so you get that challenge at lower lvls people act like you just went up and punched their sainted mother. 

 

How's that for irony. 

 

It's happening in this thread, where people have stated things don't need nerfs. Yes, yes they do. 

 

But more to the point, several things hurt the ability to balance the game, simply nerfing mods doesn't fix the problem, like the Damage 2.0 tables being completely out of balance -75% or +75% damage based on damage type is breathtakingly imbalanced, the same with armour scaling and the damage reduction. 

 

Hand in hand goes the RNG drops, they're beyond a joke now. Pure RNG is doomed to fail as the game expands and new content is added. The ridiculous ability mods being dropped constantly in game (why haven't they been removed yet, and no, I don't accept the reasoning DE gave, it's bad and ill thought out) While adjusting drop tables to take account of previous drops in the void (specifically Def. and Surv.) skewing them to allow a higher % chance for drops you've not already acquired in the match, rather than be stuck with 3 Ember Prime Helms. 

 

Much the same with resource drops in the Void, credit drops are still a thing, so are potato. Really?

 

The drops being based on enemy types rather than planets are also a problem, no one will bother with Ceres, Pluto Neptune etc as its easier to farm lower lvl planets endlessly, there's no incentive to farm higher lvl planets outside the void, and given it's largely easy due to the inflation of damage we are left with our current predicament. No difficulty or challenge within the game at all.

 

Pretty much my point, thx. So now I know I'm not alone on this.

 

The whole RNG-Loot thing you went into is another glaring issue of Warframe, but it has little to do with the difficulty.

I'd like them to fix the difficulty problems first, then think of incentives to lead people there.

 

I guess the argument I'm most sick of though is the "people want to reach higher minutes in Survival/waves in Defense" thing.

This is the same mentality that is prevalent in most MMO's, were instead of bringen high and low level closer together they just slap on a higher-high level every 3 months or so to keep players in their little hamster wheels.

Someone brought up GW2 somewhere in this threat and I couldn't agree more: I like(d) GW2 specifically for that reason - it did away with all this focussing on numbers and let the gameplay speak for itself.

I feel like Warframe is going the MMO-route right now, and frankly, thats not what I play a 3rd Person Ninja-Shooter for...

[azmyth1]

I think this is a step too far.  While I support toning down scaling, I think enemies need to at least go up by a factor of x5.  If you want to do radical descaling, at x10 and below, you need to start nerfing redirection and vitality as well, which might not be a bad idea.

 

I think this whole debate could be simplified by asking: What should the damage/hp multiplier be between level 1 and level 50 enemies, and between starting and high level tenno?

 

I don't know what the multiplier is, but it feels like it's about x50 at level 40 and maybe x200 at level 50.

For tenno, the damage multiplier ranges from 50-78 for damage and x10 for durability.  That discrepancy alone makes it hard to scale.

 

I personally think x10 is about right.

 

OP would have it at about x3 probably.

Edited June 15, 2014 by azmyth1