I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[AlphaHorseman]

Buff everything then have weak enemies or nerf one gun that will still be on top but not by as large an amount

 

Hm...

 

Read above

Not buff everything, buff whatever DE considers "top tier" weaponry in whatever sense DE thinks they should be buffed. And no, not just have weak enemies, half the problem is that our enemies are just bullet sponges, so a weapon that has sustained DPS is of course going to perform well. If our enemies weren't just bullet sponges, then we'd have far more to consider than just straight DPS.

[homiedudemanguy]

i see your frustration but opening up a topic like this is already asking for insult which means it should be expected. Keep in mind that I am not saying youre not entitled to this but exclaiming your frustration that people arent understanding is kind of a fools gambit. Although i do agree that the boltor prime is rendering other weapons obsolete, i do not think it deserves a nerf but the other weapons deserve to get buffed or be on par with it by different means or levels. Maybe perhaps utility purposes that make other weapons far more reliable, DPS, etc. I do not have a solid suggestion but for players to be satisfied without having to spend countless of hours on a weapon to suddenly be nerfed, it is far more susceptible for them to upgrade the others in a far more flamboyant way.

[SgtFlex]

It seems that you already realize its accuracy limitations. To maintain competitive damage and conserve ammo in endgame, players will need to get close and aim properly. Your suggestions would probably make Boltor Prime's niche more defined but I wouldn't consider it "harder to use." The effect of those changes would be felt most in mid-game which is where boltor prime operates best. The mid-game need would probably be easier to identify. I definitely don't see any endgame need for change but mid-game would be a different discussion. 

 

I really still don't see accuracy as an issue, especially in the void. There's 2 ends that I keep thinking about here. You go mid-game, there are some extremely large tilesets, one of which is the corpus, but the corpus are so weak it still only takes 1 bolt to take them down. Even later in a defense/survival mission, it's just insanely easy.

 

Then move on to the void, where enemies are much harder than the corpus, but the accuracy issue doesn't really exist because mainly all of the rooms are small. Even with my Rank 7 Heavy Cal, im not feeling that accuracy penalty, nor have I ever, and I bring it with me all the time.

 

The things I was talking about wasn't about necessarily making it harder to use, but making it much less spammable and giving reason to use other weapons over the boltor. Things like bullet drop would give a signifigant disadvantage over range, or increased recoil for spam (although that doesn't really help since it only takes about 6 bolts to kill mid-high level enemies, and in things like survival where you're spamming, you're going to be up close anyways)

[Azawarau]

Not buff everything, buff whatever DE considers "top tier" weaponry in whatever sense DE thinks they should be buffed. And no, not just have weak enemies, half the problem is that our enemies are just bullet sponges, so a weapon that has sustained DPS is of course going to perform well. If our enemies weren't just bullet sponges, then we'd have far more to consider than just straight DPS.

Create a bigger gap between more weapons?

 

Obsolete more weapons?

 

Mastery fodder everywhere

 

I dont mind tiers but this way of thinking is ridiculous

[Seanjuju]

I really still don't see accuracy as an issue, especially in the void. There's 2 ends that I keep thinking about here. You go mid-game, there are some extremely large tilesets, one of which is the corpus, but the corpus are so weak it still only takes 1 bolt to take them down. Even later in a defense/survival mission, it's just insanely easy.

 

Then move on to the void, where enemies are much harder than the corpus, but the accuracy issue doesn't really exist because mainly all of the rooms are small. Even with my Rank 7 Heavy Cal, im not feeling that accuracy penalty, nor have I ever, and I bring it with me all the time.

 

 

When ammo consumption begins to become a factor for Boltor Prime, so does accuracy. Soon after you notice that you need to compensate for ammo loss, you notice that boltor prime begins to lose its edge compared to other primaries. To remain competitive, more rounds need to hit their mark and you need to get closer. Its not very noticeable on enemies that don't take many rounds to kill but its there. There aren't any weapons that would feel inaccurate if you were already close because of the size of the rooms. 

 

The things I was talking about wasn't about necessarily making it harder to use, but making it much less spammable and giving reason to use other weapons over the boltor. Things like bullet drop would give a signifigant disadvantage over range, or increased recoil for spam (although that doesn't really help since it only takes about 6 bolts to kill mid-high level enemies, and in things like survival where you're spamming, you're going to be up close anyways)

This is a non-issue as there are plenty of legitimate reasons to use other primaries over boltor prime.  I]'m not sure what you mean by "spammable." It's not the type of weapon that winds-up.   

Edited October 14, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Arabaxus]

Here's the powercreep cycle you proposed in your last post.

 

>Bring more guns up to top level of power

>Enemies now feel weak

>Bring more guns up to top level of power

>Enemies now feel weak

 

And so on, into infinity. I've seen it happen before.

 

The solution is not to just nerf the Boltor Prime or just buff the weak guns, but to do both. Some guns are overperforming, like the Boltor Prime. Some guns are underperforming, like the Braton Prime. We want both of those to feel viable in their "tier", no? So the guns that overshadow others need to do that a little less, and the guns that are getting overshadowed need to be a little stronger. 

 

Edit: Just to lay it out in perfectly plain terms since it doesn't seem to be obvious enough, I don't want to just nerf or just buff. I want to do both.

 

Some weapons aren't meant to be as strong as others. New enemies, of higher level, which Digital Extremes has been committing a grave mistake of the inclusion of enemies that are simply higher level in new content alongside stronger weapons, which is the simple, successful game model of many a free to play or subscription based linear progression games, is reason why some weapons seem overpowered. We have level 60 weapons, Boltor Prime, without level 60 enemies to compensate. Of course, you could label having new enemies and weapons to compliment them, causing players to actually progress down the weapon line to challenge new enemies because using old weapons would not work against these new enemies is "power creep", but it's been a tried and true model, and is the definition of linear progression. Most of the complaints of power creep come from players who are unwilling to put in the work to grind for a new weapon, or weapon upgrades, that would come with new content of higher level, (in other words, fear and unwillingness to follow the linear progression that is suggested by Warframe having enemy levels) which is also why many veterans see any new content as filler, because it is laughably easy to complete any new event with basically anything a veteran wants to pull out of their arsenal. 

 

If you play something like Diablo, you don't take something like a level 40 weapon (Karak for example) to try to beat the latest expansion pack that is something like level 70, where a level 70 weapon (Boltor Prime for example) is supposed to be the gear of choice in terms of that one weapon type (Automatic Rifles). Except we have the level 70 and 40 weapons without the level 70 enemies. We should be adding higher level actual content rather than nerfing the strong weapons down to other weapon's of a lower tier, because that simply adds more weapons to a pool which fill the same role with only slight statistical tweaks, which is a model more fitting for a PvP game. If that floats your boat, I can recommend Team Fortress 2 or Battlefield, but having this model in Warframe is not fitting of a game like this.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Arabaxus

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

I think you're misunderstanding the problem, and the solution I'm presenting. 

 

Weapons come in tiers, sort of. This is true in any game. Nowhere do I argue that every weapon should have a similar damage output, that would be silly. I know this isn't a PvP arena shooter, and you don't need to remind me of that.

 

Edit: No explanation needed here, it's in my previous posts. Your entire argument operates under the assumption I want all weapons to be totally equal, and I don't.

Edited October 14, 2014 by vaugahn

[Pizzarugi]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Its a prime weapon. Considering how the reward tables in the void and derelict are a massive clusterfuck, you can spend literally ages working towards getting the parts. I think the boltor is fine, given how gated it is.

[Arabaxus]

I think you're misunderstanding the problem, and the solution I'm presenting. 

 

Weapons come in tiers, sort of. This is true in any game. Nowhere do I argue that every weapon should have a similar damage output, that would be silly. I know this isn't a PvP arena shooter, and you don't need to remind me of that.

 

Edit: No explanation needed here, it's in my previous posts. Your entire argument operates under the assumption I want all weapons to be totally equal, and I don't.

 

Yes, there are tiers. But also yes is that Boltor Prime being a higher tier than all the other weapons that suggested nerfs ask for it to be brought down to. 

 

I have made no assumption that you want weapons to be totally equal. I spoke about similar stats in the sense that you wanted say our Tier 3 weapons (e.g. Soma), to be at the same level as Boltor Prime by bringing down Boltor Prime, which is completely unjustified. All the work that a player goes through to farm for a weapon that should be stronger, just to realize that it is the same as one available in the shop? When have the rarest weapons been nothing more than a slight stat distribution change compared to shop gear? There used to be a reasonable rank gate for Boltor Prime when trading was not a thing, because a low rank clearing that many Void Missions and getting the keys would be highly impractical at best. Now that trading is a thing, the obvious solution is to increase the Mastery Rank for it. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Arabaxus

[AlphaHorseman]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Its a prime weapon. Considering how the reward tables in the void and derelict are a massive clusterfuck, you can spend literally ages working towards getting the parts. I think the boltor is fine, given how gated it is.

He gets it.

[AlphaHorseman]

Create a bigger gap between more weapons?

 

Obsolete more weapons?

 

Mastery fodder everywhere

 

I dont mind tiers but this way of thinking is ridiculous

Buff the OTHER WEAPONS THAT ARE TOP TIER to be ON PAR with something you think is OP, AND ALSO add in ENEMY UNITS THAT CAN TAKE THIS KIND OF DAMAGE AND BE MORE OF A CHALLENGE! That is literally what I'm saying. And "mastery fodder" as you so bluntly put it, is pretty much how tiers work. You're going to have weapons outperform others, these are the higher tier weapons, and then you're going to have weapons even stronger than those, and those are the top tier weapons. To put it lightly, that's how it works.

 

Your way of interpretation is limited.

[Semshol]

It's not about nerfing that. It's not even overpowered. I can outdo it with a large variety of weapons.

 

It's about buffing the weaker weapons in the same tier.

 

i.e. Braton Prime.

 

So NO, we are not corrupt with power, you're just unaware of how powerful other things are =P.

[Azawarau]

Buff the OTHER WEAPONS THAT ARE TOP TIER to be ON PAR with something you think is OP, AND ALSO add in ENEMY UNITS THAT CAN TAKE THIS KIND OF DAMAGE AND BE MORE OF A CHALLENGE! That is literally what I'm saying. And "mastery fodder" as you so bluntly put it, is pretty much how tiers work. You're going to have weapons outperform others, these are the higher tier weapons, and then you're going to have weapons even stronger than those, and those are the top tier weapons. To put it lightly, that's how it works.

 

Your way of interpretation is limited.

So why not nerf the boltor and have enemies be more challening that way?

'

Youre adding mor work than needs to be done

 

And at the same time trying to further the power gap

 

Again tiers are fine but there has to be a line

 

If tier 2 is 100 dmg and tier 1 is 500 damage theres a problem

 

Thats whats wrong ith the Boltor Prime

 

Buffing everyhting is going to create more problems that it solves

 

Your way of thinking is wrong

[H.Katsura_999]

The Boltor Prime is a powerful weapon but its not alone at the top.

 

Bows and Phage are also good weapons.

 

If DE buffed other weapons based on the Boltor Prime then there will be a very large Power Creep that DE wants to avoid in the first place.

 

Though Older weapons/heavy melee weapons based on damage 1.0 do need a buff, just a slight buff.

[AlphaHorseman]

So why not nerf the boltor and have enemies be more challening that way?

'

Youre adding mor work than needs to be done

 

And at the same time trying to further the power gap

 

Again tiers are fine but there has to be a line

 

If tier 2 is 100 dmg and tier 1 is 500 damage theres a problem

 

Thats whats wrong ith the Boltor Prime

 

Buffing everyhting is going to create more problems that it solves

 

Your way of thinking is wrong

See semshols post, just above yours, and you'll get your answer.

 

Your numbers are extreme, that would mean tier 3 would be like throwing rocks at the enemy. Your assumption is outlandish, DE is smart enough to realize the ramifications if the tiers were that separated, and you can refer to my earlier post on modding and players and other variables and the blur between tiers to get a better understanding. Boltor Prime isn't 500 damage, there's barely a gun in this game that'll do 100 damage, and even then those would be considered tier 3 easily. You're not accounting for the fact that we can mod, and make things powerful, and Boltor Prime isn't 500 damage.

[Quizel]

your math is impossible.

 

Soma is ~16,000 paper DPS. Boltor Prime is ~39,000.

 

double the 16,000 for 100% Crit Headshots, and it's still lower.

 

it's that simple.

Um take a look at post #324 in this thread. It has math done by wf builder, and I take it a step further. It shows that vs specific enemies using the top dps builds for the corrupted grineer in the void,  BP only has ~8.4% higher chest shot dps. 

 

Soma 16k but BP 39K? My guess is that you're comparing top burst dps build for BP(I personally don't see a solution past 36k w/o aura's/buffs) and a typical endgame or sustained dps build for Soma. I make that mistake as well all the time when thinking about the dps of a weapon I use for various reasons but it doesn't mean it's the best build for comparison.

 

I keep seeing posts about how BP dominates all weapons in terms of dps. Did they not see the substantial information provided? Here's some more food for thought. Both Soma and BP 1 shot weaker lvl 36 corrupted lancers. Soma does have to roll a crit for 1 shots though, it has 8.1% chance not to crit with build used in post#324. Soma has 50% higher RoF (yes, I know it has to windup-but once it's there it stays woundup for a while between burst). So technically on paper, Soma has significantly better TTK (time to kill) than BP for non-heavy units lvl 30'ish (and very simular TTK for everything else-> remember 8.4% chest shot dps difference) if it weren't for the fact BP causes flying bodies which dmg'es enemies they fly past. 1 shot from BP clears a hallway while soma has to mod for limited punch through distance (weapons no longer equal'ish dps) and punch through projectiles are razor thin while flying bodies are well, flying bodies size.

 

That's really the only thing that stands out to me which makes BP superior to Soma for this 'endgame' content since both weapons are capable of 1 shotting things and have very similar burst dps. If the flying bodies didn't cause dmg it wouldn't seem so OP around lvl 30-40. You could nerf BP dps in half and get nearly this same result it's just it would struggle a little more vs heavy units.  

 

If anything is to be nerf'ed on the BP, it shouldn't' be the the paper dps, but the mechanic that makes it hard to balance around. The rag-dolled flying bodies were great for bows which helped immensely (from pre-buff mindset), but for high RoF weapons capable of 1 shoting 'endgame' content it gets a bit silly.

 

So the question is, do nothing, nerf a fun mechanic for projectile assault riffles, or lower the dmg/shot massively to compensate-which would break the weapon for end-endgame. I know the thread is more for that 30-40 range, but I think end-endgame is more important to balance around anyway. As the game is easy enough to win with many various weapons/frames all supercharged and forma'ed to the max at lvl 30.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Quizel

[Davoodoo]

 Every weapon stops being effective at a certain point, mainly from level 40-100+. If this train of nerfs continue, we won't be able to hold our ground in high level content. 

Thats actually a great idea, not being able to complete content which should be by definition impossible to complete, but also going far beyond a border where only 1 out of our tools is able to do anything, did i mention theres no reward for such thing too??

 

 I havent even bothered reading rest of this topic, theres probably a ton more posts defending ability to abuse broken progression system to push through broken scaling on endless missions.

OP if you truly think this game can be balanced keep that up. I lost all hope.

[_Fracture8]

So let me get this straight. Instead of buffing the other guns to get to (apparently) Boltor Prime levels of destruction, thus making things equal, you want to nerf the Boltor Prime to other guns levels of destruction, thus making things equal.

 

How does nerfing guns get rid of the powercreep when doing the buffing would have the same result?

 

One variable doesn't change, which is enemy health. If they entire damage output if all weapons were buffed, all enemies would be weaker. Nerf one weapon's stats, hardly any change occurs.

[MDRLOz]

Maybe DE likes having one game be clearly superior to everything else. That way everyone can use that and they can scale the game around that one weapon. 

[Pizzarugi]

Thats actually a great idea, not being able to complete content which should be by definition impossible to complete, but also going far beyond a border where only 1 out of our tools is able to do anything, did i mention theres no reward for such thing too??

 

 I havent even bothered reading rest of this topic, theres probably a ton more posts defending ability to abuse broken progression system to push through broken scaling on endless missions.

OP if you truly think this game can be balanced keep that up. I lost all hope.

Then whats the point of grinding yourself to death in void missions if prime weapons are reduced to peashooters like all of the other guns? I've done 20+ T1 survival keys at 40 minutes a run on solo, and you wanna know something? I still haven't gotten that 1 damned Loki Prime piece. What are the odds an average player is gonna get their hands on a boltor prime legitimately through gameplay?

Prime weapons should be powerful, plain and simple. You worked your &#! off to get those guns, you deserve whatever power it has. Older prime weapons should be buffed for this reason.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Then whats the point of grinding yourself to death in void missions if prime weapons are reduced to peashooters like all of the other guns? I've done 20+ T1 survival keys at 40 minutes a run on solo, and you wanna know something? I still haven't gotten that 1 damned Loki Prime piece. What are the odds an average player is gonna get their hands on a boltor prime legitimately through gameplay?

Prime weapons should be powerful, plain and simple. You worked your @$$ off to get those guns, you deserve whatever power it has. Older prime weapons should be buffed for this reason.

 

1- No one wants it to be a peashooter. Just less ridiculously ahead of most other guns (and it can stay easy to wield, since that is part of its allure).

 

2- Judging on how I see an average of 1-2 BP per game, I'm pretty sure players are getting them just fine, even if half of the ones I saw were paid for.

[Seanjuju]

Maybe DE likes having one game (weapon)be clearly superior to everything else. That way everyone can use that and they can scale the game around that one weapon. 

 

Thats actually a great idea, not being able to complete content which should be by definition impossible to complete, but also going far beyond a border where only 1 out of our tools is able to do anything, did i mention theres no reward for such thing too??

 

 I havent even bothered reading rest of this topic, theres probably a ton more posts defending ability to abuse broken progression system to push through broken scaling on endless missions.

OP if you truly think this game can be balanced keep that up. I lost all hope.

You're mistaken. Boltor Prime is a great mid-game weapon but its average as far as endgame. 

 

 

1- No one wants it to be a peashooter. Just less ridiculously ahead of most other guns (and it can stay easy to wield, since that is part of its allure).

 

2- Judging on how I see an average of 1-2 BP per game, I'm pretty sure players are getting them just fine, even if half of the ones I saw were paid for.

The niches of endgame weapons become well defined as enemies become stronger. I wouldn't say any weapon is "hard to wield" unless its damaging you; this is a non-issue. Maybe boltor prime parts should increase in rarity.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Vaskadar]

The niches of endgame weapons become well defined as enemies become stronger. I wouldn't say any weapon is "hard to wield" unless its damaging you; this is a non-issue. Maybe boltor prime parts should increase in rarity.

 

Any sort of rarity change would exacerbate the market's already troublesome issue with Boltor Prime parts. The problem is the weapon's stats itself. Shouldn't have to move a mountain to the man when we can move a man to the mountain.

 

I propose giving Boltor Prime falloff and projectile arc, (affected by gravity)

[Davoodoo]

You're mistaken. Boltor Prime is a great mid-game weapon but its average as far as endgame. 

If best single target weapon which can still be modded into aoe without sacrificing more than 10% of single target dps while also having decent status chance and reasonable ammo efficiency while still being easy to use(like being hard to use would be drawback enough to justify double power of its counterparts) is only mid-level weapon then hey.

Theres no problem giving it 400% dmg buff with 100% status to make it more in line with endgame.

 

Also you missed a point, i wasnt talking about boltor, i was talking about firearms in general, they render melee, powers and even summons obsolete.

Boltor is only biggest offender here.

[lynchinator]

I agree, Boltor Prime eclipses a majority of weapons in game making the leveling of others seem almost pointless other than mastery. Toning it down or buffing other weapons up to be close to its effectiveness would be a nice addition. Yes prime weapons should be stronger than non-prime, but i doubt the intent was to make the rest of the weapons pale in comparison. OR (people will most likely hate this) put a high mastery requirement on prime weapons, rewarding only the most dedicated players with the best weapon in game.