What If The Enemy Didn't Have Levels And Nobody Was Op?

[Innocent_Flower]

It's interesting how people in support of the concept write long and detailed paragraphs, whilst those opposed write simple and short posts which, though I might be biased here, are false. 

[Noobstein]

It's interesting how people in support of the concept write long and detailed paragraphs, whilst those opposed write simple and short posts which, though I might be biased here, are false. 

 Well, you started it. Now don't act so hurt, the short sentences are probably because all who oppose you feel that the game is good and does't need to be radically changed. And what do you mean by "false"? Are we liars or something? You may say we're wrong, but that doesn't make you right. Since you started something else, there: your opinion is false! See? How does it feel?

[Innocent_Flower]

We would have a space version of Call of Duty.

 

Pass.

Getting rid of progression (which is something CoD has to some extent) will somehow make the game call of duty. 

Game is third person

game features acrobatics

Game features both melee combat and gunplay

Game doesn't let you pick weapons up off the ground

Game is set in a fantasy sci-fi setting

Game has magic powers

 

Yeah man. exactly like Call of Duty. 

I wouldn't play that game. I would in stead play what I love most: Warframe!

Hnngg 

 

This. You seems to want to remove one of the basic essences of WF, and insert a diffferent one. Pass.

It isn't a basic essence of warframe. It's a tacked part of warframe. Mods weren't even here for the past half-dozen updates. 

 

i want what your smoking OP.

must be pretty good.

Can't tell if this one is for or against, doesn't find flaws in the argument. 

[Nagisawa]

It sounds to me that everyone for this sort of sweeping game change want to play something other than Warframe...  You obviously came in with other preset expectations.

[Innocent_Flower]

A better version of warframe? 

[Nagisawa]

A better version of warframe? 

Really?  You want to CONSTANTLY have to run for cover, to be afraid of every single Grineer because ONE BULLET could kills you, but have no way of getting cover because they spawn everywhere?  Where a single Napalm can take out your entire team because no one saw him spawn from the previous room?  Have Rollers stun lock you to death, because they can?

 

This sounds fun to you?  I have no words at the innate masochistic tendencies that you people have. Do you hate yourselves that much that you must be punished every time you play?

 

Wow, just.. Wow.

[Innocent_Flower]

So, quite clearly, you didn't understand the OP at all.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Cwierz]

Really?  You want to CONSTANTLY have to run for cover, to be afraid of every single Grineer because ONE BULLET could kills you, but have no way of getting cover because they spawn everywhere?  Where a single Napalm can take out your entire team because no one saw him spawn from the previous room?  Have Rollers stun lock you to death, because they can?

 

This sounds fun to you?  I have no words at the innate masochistic tendencies that you people have. Do you hate yourselves that much that you must be punished every time you play?

 

Wow, just.. Wow.

Because that is an accurate representation of what was said in the OP.

Like seriously did you just not read the OP or are you using gross exaggerations to further your stance.

 

This is a good concept, and needs many things in order to be executed correctly, but in the event that it is, the game will instantly be better.

A PvE game requires variety as the main source of gameplay, its just that many developers gimp over progression as an opt out for creating true variety in the game. You don't need to see big numbers to feel like this is a good game, wrap your head around it.

 

Wouldn't you like it if modding weapons was actual customization that did actual things to the weapon itself rather then just stacking damage?

[azmyth1]

I think enemy levels are too integrated with the game right now to move to a levelless system.  I think scaling needs to be toned down a lot (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234311-the-elephant-in-the-room-mods/), but too much of the game's mechanics world.  There are now 4 tiers of Void, as well as the different planets would be less varied if all the enemies were the same.

 

Scaling isn't bad in and of itself, it just needs to be toned down.  A good example of where it was done poorly is actually Borderlands 2.  I really enjoyed BL2, but I found myself replacing all my guns every 3 levels.  If I found a gun I really liked, a couple hours of gameplay later, it did virtually nothing to the enemies I was facing.  If I teamed up with a parts a few levels ahead of me, I was doing 1-3% of the damage of my team and I was getting 1 shot by the trash mobs.  Warframe is headed in that direction, and it's no fun.

 

Progression is funny.  When it is too slow, you don't feel progress and it is frustrating.  It IS fun going from having to empty a clip into a heavy to being able to kill them quickly.  It's fun unlocking new powers and new effects for your guns.  It's fun to go from attacking boring old lancers to fighting Hellions and Fusion Moas.  With no progression, you don't get a sense of that advance and you lose the rush of getting better.  But at the other extreme, when scaling is super pronounced, everything also becomes monotonous.  A level 40 lancer doesn't do anything differently than a level 1 lancer.  Just watching numbers go up and getting the same gameplay experience is frustrating because you're just on a treadmill.  Always moving,but never getting anywhere.  So, I think there is a happy medium.  I'd guess that medium is around a multiple of 10 between starting and top tier stuff.  But who knows?  The only way to find out is to test it.  And this is a beta.  DE can and should tweak the numbers to get a happy medium.  Experimentation can lead us to a better game. 

Edited June 15, 2014 by azmyth1

[Innocent_Flower]

Then De-integrate them. putting everything at the same level should be pretty easy. Compensating for the lack of levels with better all round enemies is a little tough, though perfectly doable. 

[DaWolv]

The only way to find out is to test it.  And this is a beta.  DE can and should tweak the numbers to get a happy medium.  Experimentation can lead us to a better game. 

 

Exactly!

If it turns out to be an unmitigated desaster, they can just back-up the game to where it is now - no harm done.

I think its worth a try!

[Tsukinoki]

The problem I have with these suggestions to remove levels and all that is this:
What would be the point of getting a new weapon or anything if it will preform just as well as the weapons I have currently?
What would be the point of going to higher level missions if they are going to be pretty much exactly the same as lower level missions?
What would be the point of an endless mode, such as defense, knowing that if you can handle the enemies at the beginning easily you'll be able to handle the enemies until you just get bored instead of them becoming harder.  Sure they'll be replaced by elites, but once you can handle those enemies easily and it gets to 100% elites what then?

Moving to no scaling, no upgrading, and no progression would kill off a lot of enjoyment in this game.

There needs to be found a happy middle point, not one extreme or the other.  Otherwise it doesn't matter what weapon DE releases, because why have it if its going to be pretty much the same as what we have already and isn't going to be any better?

Especially when it comes down to melee weapons and how similar a lot of them are.
With nothing to really differentiate them or make ones better than the others it becomes "Why bother grinding for them as they are going to do just the same as my current equipment?"

That's the biggest issue with suggestions like this.

There just simply isn't enough ways to make one LMG different enough from the other 7 we have to make it worth getting if it has no progression that makes it better.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Hexagoros]

The closer warframe gets to being a generic third person shooter, the more they move away from what makes warframe unique.

 

What makes warframe unique is precisely the fact that you can 'level up' and customize your warframe.  If you remove a big chunk of that, what, really, are you left with?

[Innocent_Flower]

The problem I have with these suggestions to remove levels and all that is this:

What would be the point of getting a new weapon or anything if it will preform just as well as the weapons I have currently?

What would be the point of going to higher level missions if they are going to be pretty much exactly the same as lower level missions?

What would be the point of an endless mode, such as defense, knowing that if you can handle the enemies at the beginning easily you'll be able to handle the enemies until you just get bored instead of them becoming harder.  Sure they'll be replaced by elites, but once you can handle those enemies easily and it gets to 100% elites what then?

Moving to no scaling, no upgrading, and no progression would kill off a lot of enjoyment in this game. Plus your endless mode query is something I haven't addressed. 

There needs to be found a happy middle point, not one extreme or the other.  Otherwise it doesn't matter what weapon DE releases, because why have it if its going to be pretty much the same as what we have already and isn't going to be any better?

Especially when it comes down to melee weapons and how similar a lot of them are.

With nothing to really differentiate them or make ones better than the others it becomes "Why bother grinding for them as they are going to do just the same as my current equipment?"

 

You've misread the OP, though not in a terribly stupid way, so I'l answer you and hopefuly remove your concerns 

Mods still make thing better, 

Better weapons are still better. For example Boltor prime would remain better than the boltor. But also weapons with new and different mechanics would still be attractive

High level missions have more advanced enemy behaviors and elite units. Also, Intelligent eximus units who can Help their allies in a great many ways. Heals, Damage buffs,armour/shield buffs, portable cover deployment, necromancy type abilities, cloning, telleports and so on 

Endless defence? You could handle that in numerous ways. You could remove the end, you could add penalties like "once you get to wave 35, you loose 20% of your shields". You could add defense/survival specific enemies that make the game harder.  Or, because of the new ballancing, you'd finaly end up at a point where the game isn't getting harder but every round is a struggle and mistakes can't be made.  

The closer warframe gets to being a generic third person shooter, the more they move away from what makes warframe unique.

 

What makes warframe unique is precisely the fact that you can 'level up' and customize your warframe.  If you remove a big chunk of that, what, really, are you left with?

You can still level up and customise your warframe, Infact this'd open up more options and add to that. I'd say what should make warframe unique is the mix of third person shooter with parkour mechanics and interesting powers. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[taiiat]

this is a concept Warframe should be keeping in mind, it's important to remember Horizontal Gameplay feels more organic than Vertical carrot chasing.

 

i agree with all of the ideas in principle, but i know that some people that have spent too many years playing bland MMO's (let's not start this here), would like Warframe to stay as is, because it's the same as other online games, so therefore it's a rut that they're familiar with.

 

but instead, we can mix it all together, and break out of all of the ruts, because ruts in the Game Industry are disgusting. some of them are as deep as trenches by now.

What makes warframe unique is precisely the fact that you can 'level up' and customize your warframe.  If you remove a big chunk of that, what, really, are you left with?

i'm not sure where you saw a mention of remove customization.

[CBAROG]

The closer warframe gets to being a generic third person shooter, the more they move away from what makes warframe unique.

 

What makes warframe unique is precisely the fact that you can 'level up' and customize your warframe.  If you remove a big chunk of that, what, really, are you left with?

I'll quote myself from another topic.

 

And if there's a choice between "unique" grindfest (that Warframe is turning into) and a shooter that takes something from other games but makes it better, I'd choose the latter.

[Renegade343]

You have a very good suggestion right there, Innocent_Flower. That means no more artificial difficulty, but actual skill-based difficulty (if you are unskilled, then train again until you pass the obstacle), and that means everything is viable even in late-game. +1 and monitoring for further updates. 

 

As for unchanging health and damage, my one little suggestion is to increase it up to a certain level (i.e. if Lancers have spawn level 1, then health+ and damage+ will stop at level 6). The formula for this will be based on the compound interest formula, P(1+r)^(n-1), where P = initial health type/initial damage, r = rate of health type increase (0.02)/rate of damage increase (0.035), and n = level. 

 

Thus, for a Lancer with spawn level 1, 100 Cloned Flesh and health+ stopping after level 6, that means at level 6, the Lancer will have 100(1+0.02)^(6-1) = 110.4 Cloned Flesh. 

 

For a Lancer with deals 6 Damage per bullet, and damage+ stopping after level 6, that means at level 6, the Lancer will deal 6(1+0.035)^5 = 7.1 Damage per bullet. 

 

This is just a rough idea to make a bit of hidden level progression and to make players feel that there is a slight difficulty increase when going to new planets (especially from Mercury to Venus). 

 

EDIT: Then again though, I hope you have thought about preventing power spamming from 'winning' in every situation in your suggestion (since enemies will not really increase in health, that means I can spam Rhino Stomp all day and kill everything. Or, if the enemies are resistant to that, then some other power [Rhino Charge all day]). If so, you mind if you share it to this thread?

Edited June 16, 2014 by Renegade343

[Innocent_Flower]

- Moar (short) cooldowns or energy rebalancing. 

 

- Small power resistances, Like effects lasting for a shorter duration on certain enemy types.

 

One interesting one I thought of that'd happen with powers like rhino stomp and bastille would be that at somepoint during floatation the enemy remember how to shoot, even whilst they're floating. 

 

Eximus Opponents that can remove the effects of powers from their allies. 

[Renegade343]

- Moar (short) cooldowns or energy rebalancing. 

 

- Small power resistances, Like effects lasting for a shorter duration on certain enemy types.

 

One interesting one I thought of that'd happen with powers like rhino stomp and bastille would be that at somepoint during floatation the enemy remember how to shoot, even whilst they're floating. 

 

Eximus Opponents that can remove the effects of powers from their allies. 

Speaking of Bastille, I have some small ideas for making Vauban more tactical: 

 

- Make Vauban have a maximum amount of traps he can set, for example 4-5 traps. The traps include all of his powers (meaning he can either set down 5 Teslas maximum or set down 3 Teslas and 2 Bounces maximum). 

- Only allow one Bastille to be active at a time (must wait until the current one expires until ability can be recast). 

- Only allow one Vortex to be active at a time (must wait until the current one expires until ability can be recast). 

- Only allow three Bounces to be active at a time (must wait until one of the current one expires until ability can be recast). 

- Only allow five Teslas to be active at a time (must wait until one of the current one expires until ability can be recast). 

- The 'grenades' that generate from these abilities have a hit-point meter (scaled to Vauban Rank and a quarter of Power Strength), and set these 'grenades' to have a slightly higher threat level, meaning enemies will attempt to shoot and destroy the 'grenade' in order to deactivate its abilities. 

 

This should help to make Vauban actually be a bit more tactical in placement of such traps. 

[notionphil]

I've thought about this conversation for a bit before jumping in.

 

Here's my TL;DR - making progression significantly flatter overall would remove some of the appeal of Warframe for many players, but there is still something appealing about Innocent_Flower's concept - that numerical advancement (for enemies) is replaced with tactical/skill/power advancement.

 

Warframe's progression and scaling is WAY OUT OF CONTROL. It's so absurdly exponential and game-breakingly uneven that a year out of open beta, the developer is doing things like doubling enemy damage to try and give the playerbase a challenge.

 

However, just because this huge progression/scaling is bad, doesn't mean all (or most) progression/scaling is bad. Increasing your character's power  over time has been proven (aka scientifically studied) to increase attachment and satisfaction with a video game. This isn't opinion, it's fact.

 

 

"In the case of massively multiplayer online roleplaying games (MMOs), it is known that players build up their commitment to the game as the level of their character increases. [17] and that “advancement” (gain power, progress rapidly) is one of the primary motivational aspects [61]."

 

-http://www.academia.edu/6789775/Examining_RPG_Elements_Systems_of_Character_Progression

 

 

Enemy scaling is an ineffective substitute for actual enemy progression

 

The OP suggests removing all enemy scaling, normals would eventually progress to elites with more skills etc, which is an awesome idea in every single sense of the word. As Cwerz puts it:

 

 

A PvE game requires variety as the main source of gameplay, its just that many developers gimp over progression as an opt out for creating true variety in the game.

 

This is WF's major problem. In WF, enemies are our gameplay environment. The levels themselves are just backdrops (compared to a platformer etc where they affect play). However, the primary way that enemies change in WF is simple numerical scaling. Sure there are a few minor progression elements where heavies spawn more later into a survival etc...but in general you'll see 85% of the same enemies in every mission of a faction, be it level 1 or level 100.

 

Enemy level progression has been used as a substitute for actual content variation- and it's desperately lacking. To make matters worse, DE keeps adding new content into the entire level range instead of in particular places, leading to even more difficulty for the new player and lack of variance.

 

One can only imagine that the 10 new infested mobs will be present on a level 1 infested survival, if you stay more than 5 minutes.

 

So, on the note of removing enemy levels and replacing with new enemy variants/mechanics, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Player Progression is not a bad thing, if done correctly

 

WF's player progression/power is simply broken and unbalanced.

 

There's no rhyme or reason for the rank 2 Boltor Prime to dominate the rank 6 Flux rifle. No explanation for Rhino Prime to be faster, stronger, better than Saryn in every way. Etc. No logic behind some players missing Serration despite playing for dozens of hours, and others getting it on their first session.

 

The issue is that there is really no progression system in WF. Your power is almost entirely dependent on collecting RNG drops, and building weapons -  some of which are nearly useless and others obscenely powerful. So, whenever someone suggests changing the progression system - the playerbase gets excited because currently there is no progression system.

 

However, (working) progression is a good thing for a game which has RPG elements. It's essentially what makes the game RPG like. Without the "carrot" of Moar power, many of us would have quit WF a long time ago.We simply wouldn't be as "proud" of or attached to our arsenals.

 

Does Progression Hurt Variety?

 

There is already a lot of variance in the player arsenal, much of which is obscured by the inexplicable progression system. Why install a Zoom mod on your rifle at the cost of 25% damage? Why make your Frame slide farther with Maglev instead of just running faster?

 

The issue is that the progression is too random and too scaled. Weapons need to be tiered. Mods need to be rebalanced and rethought. Restrictions (or Traits like in the balance 2.0 document) need to be introduced. These power-determining items need to be granted to the player at the appropriate times, earned, not 'lucked upon'. This will allow content to be balanced to the player, as it is in many, many games with progression.

 

If a Boltor Prime had no zoom and no reticule, it's power might be justified vs the Flux. If Redirection decreased your energy as it increased your shield, the Steel Fiber mod might be more appealing. If Multishot consumed additional ammo for each extra round fired, it would be a choice not a given.

 

But what about customization, will removing progression fix that? Yes, just like your car breaking down will "fix" the fact that you don't get enough exercise. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

You can't blame +DMG for being chosen over bad, boring mods. We simply need more interesting mods to compete with the +DMG. 15% extra clip isn't interesting. Why not riccochet bullets that increase in dmg after the first hit? Why not a mod that guarantees a status effect on a headshot? Why not a mod that increases weakspot damage but lowers regular damage?

 

Same with weapons. Why can't I "dragon" my Seer pistol to make it on par with a Marelok? A system for increasing "tier" of weapons allows variance and progression to co-exist, and actually make eachother better.

 

My Overall Thoughts

 

Enemy variants instead of scaling would be a very welcome improvement.

 

Players Increasing in power isn't inherently bad, unless it invalidates old content and options (which it does here bc it's misused). The answer is not *almost* removing it, it's fixing it.

 

I feel that a much tighter progression curve less dependent on RNG + a complete mod rebalance would accomplish most of the OP's goals, without removing minimizing the RPG elements from WF.

Edited June 16, 2014 by notionphil

[Renegade343]

Players Increasing in power isn't inherently bad, unless it invalidates old content and options. I feel that a much tighter progression curve less dependent on RNG + a complete mod rebalance would accomplish most of the OP's goals, without removing the RPG elements from WF.

I have wrote down something to provide players with seeing progress in their increase in power: 

 

A rough idea in mind would be increasing the weapon's damage via using the compound interest formula (P*(1+[r])^t, where r = rate of increase of weapon damage, P = initial damage [Rank 0 damage], and t = Rank).

 

All weaponry having damage of P ≤ 10 will have r = 0.02.

All weaponry having damage of 10 < P ≤ 25 will have r = 0.0175.

All weaponry having damage of 25 < P ≤ 75 will have r = 0.015. 

All weaponry having damage of 75 < P ≤ 200 will have r = 0.0125. 

All weaponry having damage of 200 < P ≤ 350 will have r = 0.01. 

All weaponry having damage of 350 < P ≤ 550 will have r = 0.0075. 

All weaponry having damage of P > 550 will have r = 0.005. 

 

This way, players can visibly see the damage increasing on their weaponry as they rank up (i.e. Less dependent on RNG [from Mod Drops] dictating whether the player's weapon damage can increase) while giving more weapons an edge in gameplay. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Renegade343

[Krion112]

Notionphil, I don't think Innocent_Flower said anything about getting rid of players ranking up, just that the mods we get need to match more of a customization thing rather than a "Let's see how much damage I can make this do,". Of course, the player would still need to rank up to use these mods, so you could easily get that feeling of powering up your equipment.

[Innocent_Flower]

Notionphil, I don't think Innocent_Flower said anything about getting rid of players ranking up, just that the mods we get need to match more of a customization thing rather than a "Let's see how much damage I can make this do,". Of course, the player would still need to rank up to use these mods, so you could easily get that feeling of powering up your equipment.

Yep. 

 

 

 

 

Renegade: Weapons shouldn't get more powerful with rank alone. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[BurkeT]

this is an idea that is sure worth looking into as the level progression is a source of one of the core balancing issues of Waframe. As enemies grow in level, powers loose overall effectiveness, weapons become less about preference, more about what "scales the best", and things overall are harder to measure due to the fact that you have to account for the entire possible level range of enemies. If levels are omitted in WF and enemies are given set amounts of health/shields/armor, this means that powers will always perform at the same level on the same enemies, and will only be less effective if more powerful enemies are added to the mix to switch things up. for example, if a charger always has 600 health, a weapon that does a total of 200 damage per bullet will always take the same number of shots to kill. Games that demonstrate the OP's idea to a certain degree are Mass effect 3, and killing floor. In these games, enemies always have the same amount of health, upon increasing the difficulty, only increase the amount of damage they deal to you. Of course, WF would need to take its own steps to properly implement this system, and may not replicated this system in all aspects, but I think the first step is to omit levels form the mix. Also, in response to the proposed idea to have elemental mods convert the damage of a weapon to its respective elements rather that plain adding damage means that builds become less about just slapping all of the elemental mods on there that you can fit, which in turn allows for more diverse build options. You would still do more damage against a specific faction if you opted into the proper element, but would not just be a direct upgrade to a basic weapon. DE should consider what the OP is proposing here.

[notionphil]

Notionphil, I don't think Innocent_Flower said anything about getting rid of players ranking up, just that the mods we get need to match more of a customization thing rather than a "Let's see how much damage I can make this do,". Of course, the player would still need to rank up to use these mods, so you could easily get that feeling of powering up your equipment.

 

It wasn't explicitly stated, but I think Innocent's OP was arguing for a nearly flat progression. I will clarify my post to indicate that I think he meant "nearly flat" not "no progression".

 

One statement was "players can play on any map regardless of gear" which indicates a very flat progression.

 

Innocent_Flower also stated mods would make a weapon 2.5x more powerful if you spec for that enemy's weak element (so maybe assume 1.5x more powerful if not spec'd for element?). That's also a pretty flat progression considering we're talking several hundred hours of play.

 

That means....your gun does 7 DPS on day one... and 10.5 DPS, 500 hours of gameplay later? (unless elemental speced for that enemy). Pretty shallow growth.

 

Currently we have a 70x progression, which is just "throw yourself off the roof" deep. I think a 5x-10x progression, made far more linear and non-RNG'd is probably deep enough for how much 'content' we have, IMO. I want there to be some content that I absolutely ROFLSTOMP when i revisit it, and some that smacks me in the face the first time i see it.

 

Another nice perk of Innocent_Flowers proposal is that lower power enemies could still 'mix' into higher level planets. So you would at times feel the disparate power and progress you've made.

Edited June 16, 2014 by notionphil