Can We Talk About Chargers?

[shavedllama]

EDIT:

Current summation - the overwhelming feeling seems to be that Charger damage is fine as is (althoug the description would have to be altered from "weak claw attacks") but that the Charger stagger needs to go.

At the moment, almost all other types of infested have one form of staggering or another. So if Chargers are the main damage source for the infested, they should at least lose the stagger.

neKroMancer brought up some excellent points on how to not only rebalance the Chargers, but the entire Infested faction. This is worth listening to, and if not accepting in entirety, than the vast majority:

This faction [The Infested] requires an overhaul to feel more lively with greater varities of mechanic.

1. Charger. Make them a true cannon fodder. Zergling-like speed, low armor, low damage but apppeared in group of 10-15 and swarm the player with superior numbers. One of them could act as an alpha an buff the rest with damage/movement speed.

2. Runner. They're Banling from SC2 for sure. Since they appear with Chargers most of the time, make Runner's kamikaze attack spread spore which reduce movement and melee attack speed but deal minor damage. Complimenting charger's speed and number.

3. Leaper. Get these guys off the floor. Put them on the ceiling and design them to be more insect-like. Jumping at player after a sound cue from above and pinned them on the floor (or pull them up to the ceiling). Player enter QTE and smash melee button for his/her life or have a friend blast it off with gun/melee weapon.

4. The Crawler, wonder of the Infest. In stead of vomiting at the player, vomiting at the floor and deal toxic damage to passerby and deal DOT to shield (something similar to leech osprey's effect). long range vomit attack (obviously with travel time) deal the same effect.

5. Healing ancient (slow moving ancient). Get rid of the healing part since it's no use any way. Make them a slow-moving spawner unit, creating new infest unit in a fixed interval and boost nearby Infest's armor/movement speed.

6. Disruptor ancient (melee ancient) Suck less shield/energy and push or pull player away depend on what kind of damage player deals to it. If it recieved range>melee then it pull. If melee>range then push. The only effect which i like is the one which messing with UI after the tentacle effect. After sucking enough energy, pound the ground and release stored energy to the floor, stunlock everything on it while deal extra damage to shield.

7. Toxic ancient (long range ancient). We need long range ancient to balance the design. Give these guy a mutated turret/gun similar to Grineer Napalm's attack but with poison instead of fire. When player enter the radius, release toxic cloud to defend itself.

ORIGINAL POST:

I'm sure this has been discussed, but with open beta out, there's no managing to find things effectively on the forums.

Thus, here it is, and I apologize for (possibly) bringing this up again.

Chargers: (Yes, I know we all hate Rollers, Nervos, and Seekers, but lets talk Chargers.)

I was playing on my own, trying to generate some credits and complete Sedna when I realized that Chargers are -in relation to other infested- quite OP. Here's the gist on Chargers.

-Fast

-Armored

-Immune to staggering/stun (why, by the way, DE????)

-Don't bother aiming for the head, its between their front legs

-Deal ALOT of damage per hit [their descriptions with weak melee attacks is very very misleading, especially noticeable with recent damage scales for higher levels]

-Attack fair quickly in a wide arc

-Have a high chance to stagger the player

-Seem to be the most common infested type (?-Needs confirmation - possbily my own experience)

I got cornered by three level 23 Chargers -which should by no means be a problem at this point for me, though I must say I continued to let it happen, now to actually test things out- who stun-locked me, not allowing any retaliation or escape. Now as if the problem of players getting stun-locked is not enough (see Rollers, Nervos etc), these guys pack a serious punch. Even at level 23, they were taking off approx 100 shields per swipe. Each.

So what's the deal? Why are these little bulldozers so much beefier than they should be? At most, they should be threatening in a pack and annoying in smaller groups, but not so deadly individually or even between three. (Especially when you don't spot them in the darkness of Inested ships).

Note that Runners, when they detonate right next to you, even at level 23+ deal an insignificant amount of damage as a one-time deal. The only real danger in them is running into a group which will keep you stunned for a bit. But then they're also dead of their own volition, so it feels like a solid trade-off. I daresay the Infested are fairly well balanced with this one exception.

So here's what I proposed - decrease stun chance for Chargers (by half if not more), enable stun/staggering on them, and most importantly, scale that damage down.

Thoughts?

Edited April 9, 2013 by shavedllama

[Alsphestrium]

I read somewhere that Chargers are designed to take down your Warframe's shield fast, as they deal bonus damage to it.

As for the stun-locking, I can't help you there, Tenno. :c

Eyes sharp and weapons ready at all times I suppose. And don't be afraid to run away....UNLESS YOU'RE MOTHERF*CKING RHINOOOO.

[Genoscythe]

I agree mostly with you, but i think the damage is fair because they are melee mobs and you should be able to kill em from distance before they arrive. The stagger is the challenge, if they would be less annoying if DE wold decrease their stagger.

[wkfire]

Yes, other than runners, this seem to be the most common.

And i agree that the 'weak claws attack' is very misleading :|

[Toddwjp]

Except that they have low health, I quite like chargers

[Alsphestrium]

Maybe after the "Weak claw attacks" actually have missing text like. "Weak claw attacks.....that can kill in 3 seconds flat because you are weaker."

[Bitfly]

Yes chargers have high damage. Yes, chargers die fast. Problem? :x

[Sace]

I didn't see any problems with the chargers so far. I am often surrounded by 6+ of those and a crapload of other mobs and rarely get into trouble even with my 14-ish Excalibur I am currently playing. Just start using your abilities/camp at advantageous positions or jump away above their heads. They can stagger, true but even being swarmed I never actually got stunlocked to death. There were always generous time-windows to use AOE or get moving.

[Bitfly]

Infestation are easy enough already. I would hate to see one of the more challenging enemies being nerfed. Disruptors are the real pain, but I wouldn't want it differently.

[tengenkujaku]

I miss the old charges...

[Aggh]

I don't particularly have a problem with them, but the stagger on top of the high damage is a bit of an issue for players at lower levels. Maybe only have level 25+ chargers have the stagger?

[MJ12]

I don't particularly have a problem with them, but the stagger on top of the high damage is a bit of an issue for players at lower levels. Maybe only have level 25+ chargers have the stagger?

That's a terrible idea due to undocumented abilities ("wtf these guys who never staggered me before are staggering me now") unless you make two variants with different looks and stats, "Chargers" and "Advanced Chargers", the latter of which only show up on high-level Infested missions.

[Aggh]

That's a terrible idea due to undocumented abilities ("wtf these guys who never staggered me before are staggering me now") unless you make two variants with different looks and stats, "Chargers" and "Advanced Chargers", the latter of which only show up on high-level Infested missions.

Let's complain about something and then offer the obvious solution to the complaint in the same post. That will totally be worth everyone's time.

They could also just list stagger in the description or add a prefix (ex staggering charger) to the name. Personally I don't see a good reason for why they don't list the all the attributes that mobs have when you mouse over them.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Aggh

[shavedllama]

Perhaps retaining the high damage is fine, but not simultaneously with constant stun. Damage in melee form is avoidable. Random stun is just silly.

Still, this totally contradicts their "weak claw attack" description.

I'm fine with the damage they deal, even if it seems high when compared to other infested, but right now they are a source of stun AND damage. We already have chargers and leapers as stunners, why have more? While ancients take on the role of both and are thus a threat.

So sure, leave the damage, just change the description, but lose most of that stun. And why not enable stun on them too?

[IcarusNine]

Note that Runners, when they detonate right next to you, even at level 23+ deal an insignificant amount of damage as a one-time deal. The only real danger in them is running into a group which will keep you stunned for a bit. But then they're also dead of their own volition, so it feels like a solid trade-off. I daresay the Infested are fairly well balanced with this one exception.

Leapers take 10x damage while leaping, virtually guaranteeing their death. Crawlers can be safely ignored in most circumstances. Plus, if a Loki puts up a decoy, you'll be safely rid of all runners in the area (the only loss being no xp reward).

It's almost as if they're supposed to play support for chargers, except that they're all exceedingly terrible at it and chargers have to be buffed well past their described effectiveness in order to compensate.

[shavedllama]

As I said, there's a tradeoff for each type (minus crawlers, which is a good point) except for chargers, who have no true weaknesses. I assume that infested are supposed to be effective in groups with variety of types (not currently the case) but its the chargers which have become the bread and butter of infested. It would be reasonable to shift their stats around to balance them amongst the others.

Loki's ability is exactly that - an ability, an alternative to dealing with enemies directly, let's not use it as a basis against enemy types.

[Venarge]

No need for nerfing them. Otherwise you would only get some little dogs without any threat....

[Renan.Ruivo]

Thoughts?

You're a player with little experience at solo? That's what i thought when i read your post... I went to Ceres (Or Eris.. i always mix.. the one with Xini) pre and post U6 boost to chargers [thanks for the correction, Aggh] and pre U7-passives solo with my loki with a variety of guns and, while yes very dangerous, they aren't diffucult to manage once you learn how to play with them.

For instance, don't bother using any melee weapon against them that isn't a heavy weapon, otherwise they will keep staggering you. Heavy mellee weapons just carry the momentum of their own attacks so keep spamming E (don't try charges though). Also, grond slam from a heavily elemental modded Gram makes wonders, specially with ice mods.

Ah, and yes, of course. Hek.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Renan.Ruivo

[Aggh]

You're a player with little experience at solo? That's what i thought when i read your post... I went to Ceres (Or Eris.. i always mix.. the one with Xini) pre U6 and pre U7-passives solo with my loki with a variety of guns and, while yes very dangerous, they aren't diffucult to manage once you learn how to play with them.

For instance, don't bother using any melee weapon against them that isn't a heavy weapon, otherwise they will keep staggering you. Heavy mellee weapons just carry the momentum of their own attacks so keep spamming E (don't try charges though). Also, grond slam from a heavily elemental modded Gram makes wonders, specially with ice mods.

Ah, and yes, of course. Hek.

The chargers and eris were both implemented in u6 so you couldn't have played them pre u6 :|

[Cakes]

There used to be a spam of threads about chargers when they were changed from a useless version of runners into what you see now, spouting how the changes were OP and how infested missions, which used to be boring w+melee spam missions, were now unplayable. Those threads died out within two weeks of the new charger's appearance when people figured out how to deal with them.

Why are they much less annoying to most people than rollers? Easier to hit, slowable, moving to the side evades their attack, and simply having your character run into one doesn't result in a stagger animation.

The chargers and eris were both implemented in u6 so you couldn't have played them pre u6 :|

Chargers were around pre-U6 in the form of runners which did not detonate and basically did nothing to hinder the player. Hence:

I miss the old charges...

Edited April 8, 2013 by Cakes

[LordLokai]

The real issue here isnt so much that chargers are high damage squishies, as much as the stun and cant be stunned problem. Infested as a whole are an issue why? because every single infested can stagger, stun, or knock you down. In a group infested can and will stun you untill you are dead. IS a reason that many players jump on boxes to avoid, and break infested pathing... because are SO many of the bastards and actually getting surrounded is a death setence!

Additionally my fragor is nearly maxed out now and at higher levels (25-30 stuff) i can not kill chargers in one smash attack, swing, maybe a charged attack will do it. So saying thet are squishie isnt all that founded. Even my beast of a shotgun, takes two shots to kill them in most cases, only a direct shot at point blank range will drop them in one shot.

My BIGGEST problem with the game right now is all the stagger and stuns going around in it, is nothing feels cheesier then getting knocked down or stunned again and again with out ANY ability to fight back. Its not that any of us cant manage these missions, its just feeling that something that is suppose to be cannon fodder is probably toughest mob in game do to numbers, damage and stuns.

[Sealgaire]

Chargers have been heavily nerfed since their update 6 makeover, when they were one of the few truly dangerous enemies. Now they're pretty trivial as long as you don't let yourself get cornered by a large group of them.

[V0LK]

My issues are: they do too much damage for a 'weak claw attack', stagger you with every hit, and there's just too many of them. If any of the issues would be adressed - I'd be extremely happy.

Rollers can be annoying, but at least Grineer ranks do not consist of them by 80%.

Also I realy don't like we can't dismember them.

[Karosu]

I like chargers, and have never had a problem with them on any level, and I'm a melee rhino frame, and before that, melee excal.

Besides their knockback is supposed to really be effective in packs anyways.

In fact, as a melee unit, I LOVE INFESTED, they are by FAR my favorite enemy type, merely because they come to me.

If you're having problems, get a better melee weapon, do a hop smash and hop up on something to get away.

scindo sweep with good mods one shots them easily, i can kill about 10 of them in 2 seconds getting hit once.

And no they dont stagger with every hit, in fact my experience is they rarely actually stagger, like once every 5 hits or something. its not dangerous except in packs.

And if you get surrounded by a huge pack of foes and you die, you're saying the foes are too hard? wait you want to live while being swarmed under? that makes sense.... >.> (sarcasm)

Edited April 8, 2013 by Karosu

[LordLokai]

I like chargers, and have never had a problem with them on any level, and I'm a melee rhino frame, and before that, melee excal.

Besides their knockback is supposed to really be effective in packs anyways.

In fact, as a melee unit, I LOVE INFESTED, they are by FAR my favorite enemy type, merely because they come to me.

If you're having problems, get a better melee weapon, do a hop smash and hop up on something to get away.

scindo sweep with good mods one shots them easily, i can kill about 10 of them in 2 seconds getting hit once.

And no they dont stagger with every hit, in fact my experience is they rarely actually stagger, like once every 5 hits or something. its not dangerous except in packs.

And if you get surrounded by a huge pack of foes and you die, you're saying the foes are too hard? wait you want to live while being swarmed under? that makes sense.... >.> (sarcasm)

no if you get swarmed you die, the issue is moment you get hit by infested, start being put into this stagger/stumble/stun/knock down chain that can be almost impossible to recover from.

Runner explodes stagger

charger claw stagger

charger 2 claw stagger

anceint charge knock down

ancient claw stagger/shield wipe

its VERY easy to get chain stunned by infested.

What i'm saying is this, damage is fine, health is fine, swarm is fine, spam stun on every single infested? not fine... i dont mind being swarmed, dieing do to damage incoming. I do mind that its super easy to just get chain locked from infested and have NO ability to get free... it doesnt happen often but it does happen and when it happens it feels so unfair you want to rage at someone or something.

stunlock in any game is never ok...

Edited April 8, 2013 by LordLokai