Loki - How His Abilities Should Be

[Foera]

I don't know, if someone else had the same ideas ... if someone came up with the same ideas, then I'm sorry that i post it again, but this idea doesn't get out of my head ... so ... here is my idea, how Loki abilities should be (sorry, if my english is too bad.)

 

Decoy:

Actual: Spawns an object with some HP and SP and taunt the enemies.

 

Really? I mean ... would you focus something that acts like a turret and never makes DMG? ...

 

My idea for this "problem" would be something simple:

 

Give Loki's "Decoy" a KI ... no Abilites, a Chance to knock back the enemy (i mean ... it is something illusionary ... if you have the feeling something could hit you and then you see or feel that a bullet is hitting you, your body would make a reaction to it), maybe 1 DMG per Shot and it should use cover (like Grineer oder Corpus humans).

 

Invisibility:

The damage multiplier ... it should make a difference, which weapons you are using. Faster and Smaller Weapons (like Dagger or fist weapons) should gain a higher DMG-Multiplier than a heavy weapon. in exchange, heavy weapons get a higher multiplier for channeling.

 

Switch Teleport:

First, i want an auto aim, to make it easier to swap with an target (the closest object in a radius around our crosshair).

Second, give us the ability to swap with objects.

Third, if you swap with an neutral or an enemy, you place some sort of trap on it. For example, if you swap with an explosive, it will automatically explode after x seconds. Or if you swap with an enemy, you can confuse the other enemies around him, to think that he is you or anything like that. Maybe place some sort of stun on him and blind all enemies around him? Just some examples what this ability could be. (You could even make it random, which effect it is)

 

Radial Disarm:

Actual: Infested and Tennos take some damage and anything else loses their weapons.

 

No .... just no ...

 

Let's make it into something, that would work more with Loki's build:

 

Any sort of robot or mechanical is disrupted and can not move for x seconds (you would see some sort of autorepairing and the timespan should be rather short), drones will fall down and will take some impact damage, moas would be knocked down and make some little moves (Twitching legs or something like that) and the rollers would stop and smoke a little bit.

 

Humans can't fire anymore, but they won't lose their weapons. They will run to the next cover  and start emergency repairs. In that short time, they are reparing their weapons (don't worry, after they are repaired they will some negative effects ... like less damage or problems with the mag or something like that) and the Humans with melee Weapons will try to protect them.

 

Infested are slowed for a short time (overloaded nerves .... i mean ... they have instable cells ... wouldn't really take much, to block the nerves or filling it with too much information) and sometimes they are paralyzed for x seconds.

 

So that was my idea, how Loki should be ... what do you think of my "rework"?

[Archistopheles]

Because when I think of frames that need buffs.... I think of Loki.

 

 

:3

Edited June 29, 2014 by Archistopheles

[TwelfthAngel]

I like it.

And every one that doesn't are lying!

[SquirmyBurrito]

No thanks.

[Taikaponi]

I just wish DE doesn't ruin Loki as well... He is perfect right now.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Just to break it down aside from saying no and going away.

 

Decoy - it may not look threatening to us, but the visual representation that an enemy sees may not be the same.  It's already one of the best 1 skills in the game, and you're suggesting that it also gains the ability to stagger targets?  I'm not on board here.

 

Invisibility - Because small weapons need even more buffs?  The heavy weapons are already the weakest among weapon classes at this moment.  I get the concept that assassins using small blades just fits more, but I'm not keen on this change at all.

 

Switch Teleport - No on the auto-aim assist.  Just a personal preference but I hate auto-aim in general, and its basically unwarranted on instant/hitscan type abilities.  As for the other side, it's a possibility and I somewhat dig the idea.  But it's not like the ability is lacking, it's a very fast mobility tool with a small cost.  So another no from me.

 

Radial Disarm - It's already borderline* too powerful as it stands.  It doesn't need to do anything to Infested from my point of view.  So I'll politely decline supporting this idea.

 

Long story short, I wouldn't like any of these suggestions to be implemented.

 

[size=1]*Not saying it should be nerfed.  So don't freak out on me.[/size]

Edited June 29, 2014 by (PS4)Bobtm0

[--Sokol]

I like it.

And every one that doesn't are lying!

I like it so much that it makes me dislike it to the point I like it a lot, when actually I like the fact that I don't like it.

 

@Op I don't know what to think of your rework. Right now Loki is as good and balanced as it can be.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Cerberus_Sokol

[XenosInfinity]

I like it.

And every one that doesn't are lying!

 

Or, you know, just have some common sense and realise Loki works fine already.

 

Give Loki's "Decoy" a KI ... no Abilites, a Chance to knock back the enemy (i mean ... it is something illusionary ... if you have the feeling something could hit you and then you see or feel that a bullet is hitting you, your body would make a reaction to it), maybe 1 DMG per Shot and it should use cover (like Grineer oder Corpus humans).

Decoy is apparently capable of inflicting statuses on enemies, although I've never seen it happen. Whilst I would like to see the decoys given a little AI and mobility, it isn't really necessary and would ruin its ability to be a static distraction.

 

Invisibility:

The damage multiplier ... it should make a difference, which weapons you are using. Faster and Smaller Weapons (like Dagger or fist weapons) should gain a higher DMG-Multiplier than a heavy weapon. in exchange, heavy weapons get a higher multiplier for channeling.

If you're invisible, the damage multiplier is high enough that you shouldn't really need to channel. And really, have you seen the damage things like Ankyros Prime can do? It would almost be an insult to make it any stronger, it already gives you ludicrous melee power and invisibility.

 

Switch Teleport:

First, i want an auto aim, to make it easier to swap with an target (the closest object in a radius around our crosshair).

Agreed. Same for Smite and Energy Vampire/Well of Life, please.

Second, give us the ability to swap with objects.

...That's actually an interesting idea. Explosive barrels as a decoy. Difficult to code, though, I think, since the objects aren't meant to be moveable.

Third, if you swap with an neutral or an enemy, you place some sort of trap on it. For example, if you swap with an explosive, it will automatically explode after x seconds.

I'm not so sure about that, I'd rather not blow up my entire team. Or have Lokis on my team blowing me up.

Or if you swap with an enemy, you can confuse the other enemies around him, to think that he is you or anything like that. Maybe place some sort of stun on him and blind all enemies around him? Just some examples what this ability could be. (You could even make it random, which effect it is)

Radiation status? No, I honestly think it's fine already. It disorients the target after casting, and you can see how annoying that is when Grineer commanders use it back against you.

 

Any sort of robot or mechanical is disrupted and can not move for x seconds (you would see some sort of autorepairing and the timespan should be rather short), drones will fall down and will take some impact damage, moas would be knocked down and make some little moves (Twitching legs or something like that) and the rollers would stop and smoke a little bit.

As much as this would be useful, it's not disarming them, it's disabling them. Disarm implies only weapons stop working.

Humans can't fire anymore, but they won't lose their weapons. They will run to the next cover  and start emergency repairs. In that short time, they are reparing their weapons (don't worry, after they are repaired they will some negative effects ... like less damage or problems with the mag or something like that) and the Humans with melee Weapons will try to protect them.

Not funny enough for Loki powers. Prods for everyone.

Infested are slowed for a short time (overloaded nerves .... i mean ... they have instable cells ... wouldn't really take much, to block the nerves or filling it with too much information) and sometimes they are paralyzed for x seconds.

I think it's funnier to tear their arms off. I mean, it's called disarm...

 

Some interesting ideas but the Disarm changes just aren't funny compared to its current effects. And Invisibility REALLY doesn't need a buff (see Fang Prime, Ankyros Prime, Dual Ichors).

[vaugahn]

I kind of liked the suggestions for decoy and disarm, but wanting additional damage multipliers for invisibility on top of the existing one is way way way too much. As it stands, invisibility is already one of the more powerful abilities in the game, just because of the crazy damage you can put out and how long it lasts. If anything I'd like to see them change it to 100% status instead.

 

And if some comments from the devstream are correct, the next frame coming out will be able to create traps in what I assume will be a manner similar to what you described.

[Foera]

Thanks for all your feedback:

 

@He is fine as he is: *sigh* Nope. Not in his Role. After all ... it is Loki. I mean .... LOKI. He should play with his enemies like a cat plays with a mouse. ATM it is more like ... go invis ... destroy everything. And that is the thing that i hate. I mean ... when you think about a weapon (and a exosuit is more a or less a weapon) that is called .... Thor or Mjollnir ... you would think, that it make massive Damage, right? ... so .... when you think of an Gadget that is called Loki ... do you expect invis? No ... you would think, that is more that would irrate the enemy and make it easier for your comrades to destroy it .... or that a whole army would fall in chaos. And ATM Loki doesn'T fulfill this role.

 

@Melee-Multiplier: Yeah, i know it. But that is more a problem with Melee 2.0 and Balancing than an issue with my idea.

 

@Static Distractor: Than it should be more like a noise .... something like gunfire that comes from no where .... but a static image from Loki isn't really that great. (@Bobtm0: From a logical expect is a visual threat only a short time a threat ... after all ... when you see, that the bullets are going through the enemy ... you would realise that it is a dummy .... i mean ... they KNOW what we can do ... even if the grineer have damaged brains, they should realise that as soldiers ... and hell ... the infested are more like animals ... they wouldn't fall for such a cheap trick)

 

@Switch Teleport - Explosive: That with the explosive was just a example ... you could also make it into a mine, that would wait for enemies to bea near it.

 

@Switch Teleport - Confused: As a trained soldier ... or as a trained merc ... or anything that has some fighting experience ... you wouldn't stay on this place .... your instincts would overtake and you would search automatically cover. Another example, why some ideas from DE doesn't make any sense.

 

@Radial Disarm - Name: Yeah ... but i didn't know a better name for now. So i just wrote the idea for it and not a name change.

 

@Radial Disarm - Effects: Loki "disarms" the enemy weapons with an EMP. So it would make sense, that robots and the roller stops working (for some time). And Lokis Abilites shouldn't be funny. They should bring chaos on the battlefield and not make enemies to practice dummies.

 

@vaugahn: But the Trap Frame doesn't have the name LOKI ... so yeah ... and after all, only STP has the idea with some "friendly" gifts for our targets

[DrBorris]

Loki is OP as is, but in a perfectly balanced way. His abilities are all useful and work together better than any other frame. Of all frames that should not be touched, Loki is on the top of the list.

[YashiroSora]

1. Im pretty sure Decoy does already do like 1 dmg and has an impact proc(small chance). The reason we see that is it a static image is due to our visors recognise it as a fake and only a static projection, but the enemy would perceive it as an actual Tenno(how could their helmets pick up it's a fake?). I do like some actual movement from the Decoy, like if you place it near a crate it snaps into cover and moves in and out firing, its more realistic.

2.No need to change this, but maybe in a different way, ideas for that would come later, still developing.

3.I like this change.

4.I like this one too, another suggestion for enemies is just have a gun rack or something placed on the map, like in lockers. I'll bet money that on such a ship there's weapon storage, and i still wonder why this is not implemented. 

[Paul_Pianoff]

Don't fix what's not broken.

I will disagree with any change to Loki's abilities.

[YashiroSora]

Don't fix what's not broken.

Not broken but not perfect. Things can be improved to a higher level. 

[Paul_Pianoff]

Not broken but not perfect. Things can be improved to a higher level. 

Loki is already overpowered, altering his abilities in a good way will make him completely broken.

[YashiroSora]

Loki is already overpowered, altering his abilities in a good way will make him completely broken.

Particularly on the fact all his damage comes from his weapons. He needs a larger degree of 'manipulation', not hide-and-seek melee slaughter.

[AttackNitro]

I really hope DE doesn't listen to a single thing OP said in this thread. It's just awful.

[Foera]

@AttackNitro: Awful? To give an broken frame a good rework? Invis is OP, Radial Disarm is OP ... Decoy only useful against Melee Mobs or Mobs with the Debuff of Radial Disarm  and STP ... yeah ... sometimes useful.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

The issue Wuotan, is a two-part thing;  People enjoy Loki greatly as he is.  Your "rework" isn't good.

 

Decoy is useful against all mobs, Switch Teleport is always as useful as you can make it since its an instant travel tool.

 

I'm not going to say that either Radial Disarm or Invisibility need nerfed outright or even redesigned.  The two abilities are powerful however but are purely supplemental rather than active killing/CC abilities.  DE already improved enemy AI so that they react to invisible targets, so that's a good thing and RD could do with a timer at most (aka, becoming effected by Duration).

 

What you've suggested just isn't the Loki that his fanbase knows and loves.  Clearly Loki just isn't the frame for you.

[Foera]

@Bobtm0: Then no Frame would be good enough for me ^^. All Frames have at least 2 Abilities that are broken or way too underpowered.

 

Decoy has low Stats and is only good for aggro control. BUT in the most cases (without any other effects like Radial Disarm) it dies way too fast. Yeah, you can place it in safe spots, but this shouldn't be how it works. It should attract the enemies away from you (if you know League of Legends, then think about the Passive from LeBlanc .. THAT is a Decoy, not what we got here). What we got here, is a aggro "turret", with low HP and low SP and not a "Decoy".

 

Switch TP isn't instant. it has a cast time. 0.5 seconds. Short, but not instant and with no other use, than to switch Positions. The 1 Seconds Hard-CC isn't that great and can be neglected. With that, you can bring your team the death into the house ... so ... not enough chaos for me.

 

If you compare it with Ash TP that has a 0,25 CD (because of the flip), you get more use of the Ash TP. No Risk for your Team, only Risk for you (if you are invisible ... yeah ... no risk at all). With Lokis STP ... well ... you can bring yourself and your Team into danger ... sooo ... you need something, that will help your allies and bring chaos on the field ... random Effects are the best solution for that.

 

Ai should react? Nope ... sorry. I don't care less. They just search the area, where they noticed something .... but really? If you think, there is something and go alone in that direction without any support ... you shouldn't call you a soldier. I mean ... a ally dies right in front of you .... and you don't care less ... must i say anything? The AI should regroup to cover each direction from where something can come. THAT would be the right decision. But the AI isn't intelligent enough for that (i know, that programming a KI isn't as easy as the most think, but yeah ...).

 

And as a said, Invis with the multiplier isn't the problem. The Balance between the weapons (yeah, i know ... another thing that isn't easy .... but i don't see anything in that direction for older weapons) and the fail with Channeling in M2 (looks awesome ... but doesn't has any other use, than to restore your hp with Life Strike) is the issue. When faster and smaller weapons and heavy weapons would have realistic Stats, then would the idea with my multiplier be better than it is now.

 

So ... with Power Duration? Even if you would do that ... most Lokis run around with an PD build. So it would stay the same like Novas MP.

 

So ... you would say, his fanbase loves him as he is? Powerful enough to destroy whole armies with spamming 2? Than Loki shouldn't be called Loki.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Wuotan_Van_Yggdrasill

[YashiroSora]

What you've suggested just isn't the Loki that his fanbase knows and loves. 

I think you're being stereotypical here, i like his changes, but i say Switch Teleport needs a different effect than the 1second stun. Perhaps make it so the enemy is knockdown with switched with, at least it gives time for your team to hit it. Cast time is alright, but i do feel it could use some looser aim, as you run a lot with Loki. 

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

I think you're being stereotypical here, i like his changes, but i say Switch Teleport needs a different effect than the 1second stun. Perhaps make it so the enemy is knockdown with switched with, at least it gives time for your team to hit it. Cast time is alright, but i do feel it could use some looser aim, as you run a lot with Loki. 

 

Yeah, that was too much of a generalization on my part.  Part of what brought that thought to mind was how the TC keeps acting like "the Loki we have shouldn't be called Loki" which strikes me as being off point.

 

The reason I'm against the Switch Teleport thing is simply due to the precedence set by other mobility type skills in Warframe at the moment.  A knockdown wouldn't be too much, but it's already a very flexible mobility tool, giving it too much utility would just be a step in the wrong direction for a frame who is already as powerful as Loki is.

 

As for the aiming on ST, that's just purely subjective all around, some will be for it and others against it.  I'm in the against it crowd because I'm just hugely biased against all auto-aim type thing.  While I wouldn't like it to be changed in such a way, there's really no argument beyond my preference on that particular matter.

_________________

 

Anyways, to shift gears back to you Wuotan;  I wasn't meaning it as per the lack of balance amongst a kit.  However Loki has 4 very powerful abilities rather than a 2/2 split which is the most common.  I meant he isn't for you since you want him to be so different than he is and, in my opinion, should stay.

 

Decoy is a 1, simple as that.  Something that stands still can be a Decoy just as much as something that moves.  Many players would prefer that Decoy remains stationary since it allows for a greater control over enemy lines of fire, in tandem with the fact that we don't have any form of control system for allied units.  Basically it'd meander around pointlessly if allowed to move, and be more of a hindrance likely.  Looking at the respective differences between the AI of the enemies, specters, and Nekro's Shadows we can't expect much.

 

I meant instant in its travel speed and you know it  :p so don't try to pretend otherwise.  A mobility skill doesn't really need to do anything beyond mobility when it allows for the level of flexibility that ST does.  Beyond the fact that ST'ing a heavy next to your allies is the most dull-witted move possible, it is actually incredibly "chaotic" so it fits your personal Loki wishes.  "Oh, you guys thought you had a nice defensive line set up?  Well NAPALM!"  *Chaotic laughter ensues.*  ST allows you to move effectively any unit to any position, at will.  It's nine parts movement, one part control.

 

Comparatively speaking, Ash's TP is purely an offensive movement tool without any potential for creative use.  There's a reason for the fact that, while in some cases not unwarranted, Ash is considered to be a "poor man's Loki".

 

As for the enemy AI bit, them spraying wildly in your general direction is fairly dangerous for a frame as squishy as Loki so those changes are solid.  The soldier thing... the AI in this game just don't do formation stuff as of yet.  While doing so sounds "good", them bunching up would only serve to further their ease of demise so it's not a good direction to go in.  I still don't quite get what you mean with the acronym KI, so I can't really comment on that part.

 

Your invisibility multiplier suggestion just doesn't work in the game at the moment.  If they ever did a balance pass so that the weapons were in-line in regards to damage like that though the small weapons would almost become useless to anyone not a Loki.  The biggest flaw in Melee 2.0 is, aside from how slow it is, the fact that we're awash in a sea of cannon fodder.  If it can't pretty much 1-shot one or more targets it isn't going to be that viable.  While channeling could be better, it's a lot more than just "life-strike mode" seeing as that mod is overrated for everything not a Valkyr.

 

The reason I suggest a Duration limiter is because, it's the easiest way to weaken Radial Disarm without either a hard nerf or a full rework.  With the former option being a bad idea, and the latter being too difficult an idea for me to personally fathom.

 

On the last note;  Spamming 2?  Pfft, Loki doesn't even slightly need Invisibility.  One of my Loki builds on my second Loki doesn't even have Invisibility slotted and I don't feel weakened at all even whilst running T3 keys.