I Would Like To Thank Steve For Throwing Down The Mic On The Mods And Joining The Scott Side Of The Void.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And for the 12313213th time, by the time you are getting one-hit killed by something there are other things that could do the same.

I disagree. Nothing else has the power of a MOspery (and isn't a boss/miniboss).

 

It deals 450% if it gets a proc. And if you're in a corridor, GG. It starts killing you long before anything else does.

Edited July 7, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[DiabolusUrsus]

Procs were taken down because before this all that the enemies did was dance around until they died.

 

I never said anyone needed to play by any specific rules, in fact, i am the one saying the total opposite.

I am the one saying you dont need Shields, Flow, etc, in every build. You can put one or two mods and it's not the end of the world.

 

1. There are other ways to go about remedying that specific problem without sacrificing procs to RNG.

 

2. That is a flat-out lie with regards to playing by specific rules. Can you say the same thing of faction-specific elements and base damage multipliers? I didn't think so. Don't cherry-pick your examples to cover up the most glaring flaws with the system as though we don't know they exist. 

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

No, I don't like how elemental damage is essentially geared towards a specific faction.

 

However, at least the choices aren't 100% clear cut bc of armor types. That makes more choices "arguable". EX: Elec, Viral, Mag vs Corpus...all have their pros and cons.

 

"Isn't it boring to use the same weapons against everything?"

 

Who suggested that? Certainly not me. Rather than hardcode which weapon is good against which faction, I'd suggest to make weapons better in different situations and for different playstyles, as I suggested in Balance 2.0 proposal.

 

It's OK to have a certain amnt of 'factional' min-max but when it gets too extreme (75% bonus dmg for example) it just becomes the choice between a handicap or not.

 

Overall, I'd like to see players choosing between options based on what they like/enjoy, as opposed to what the game gives a hardcoded bonus in this situation, or what will prevent you from getting one-hit-KOd.

 

 

Biggest issue I have with damage 2.0 is the huge % buff or nerf to damage for damage types, it's dumb. it rolls into the issue with frame powers, weapons and mods, I mentioned previously. You've also brought up the similar points regarding damage types in one of your own treads.

 

Hence Mag is all but crippled vs the Grineer, no one will ever use magnetic against armour. Yet, I can pick a Latron (supposedly anti armour) and slap on magnetic damage and it's just as effective vs Corpus as Grineer. 

 

The mod system and damage 2.0 polarizes the game to the point where it revolves around simply stacking damage mods, then choose a crit build or a status build and apply the appropriate element type. The actual weapon and the base damage, even the enemy is largely irrelevant, given these 3 criteria will plow through all the content in the game. Yet, using a Latron doesn't actually reward me for playing better vs the Corpus compared to the Grineer to make up for any short comings in the weapon style and type, the Damage 2.0 system actually makes it easier for you to play in a way where skill is not rewarded, only knowing the damage types and being able to stack specific mods is what generates greater DPS. 

[notionphil]

But this is how elemental effects are usually put into effect, the element hurts certain things more than others.

 

Yes, but in most games the thing [fire] hurts more is right next to other things that [fire] hurts less.

 

Also [fire] will have other tradeoffs. Maybe it slows your weapon down, so the fire isn't put out. Maybe it reduces max damage. However, it can cause a DoT.

 

So the end result is, yes, you can bring [fire], and it has a nice DoT and will be great against monsters A, B and C, but it will suck against monsters D, E and F. Maybe ice would be better? Maybe elec? Maybe....there isn't a clear cut "right" choice.

 

As i said, WF does an OK job of this. There isn't a single "right" choice. Instead there are 2 or 3 right choices per faction and 9 or so bad choices. However, what is the benefit of not making them all "right" choices?

 

How does it help to have 2-3 right choices instead of 11 fair choices, each with significant pros and cons?

 

 

 

 

I dont understand this section, what weapon you use is different than what mods you use.

You can use whatever weapons you want against whatever factions. Some weapons give you certain benefits but weapons have never really been an issue.

 

 

You brought up weapons not me. My point is the same about either mods or weapons though:

 

I'd rather see smaller variations in what the game says is "good" to use, so that there are more "right" choices (use fire sword because you like the fire mechanic) and less forced/false choice. (EG: use fire sword in the ice level bc it deals 2x damage)

 

What is my overall point?

 

To understand this point further, imagine if each Warframe dealt 50% extra damage and had 50% extra effective health on the planet it is farmed from - because of its strong connection to the Orokin energy deep within that planet's core or some other lore reason.

 

So, Ember deals 150% dmg and has 150% HP/shields on Saturn

Mag deals 150% damage and 150% hp/shields on Mars.

And each Prime would have a specific void Tier and type where they get the bonus, such as Rhino Prime T3 Surv.

etc...

 

What effect would that have on the game? It would do absolutely nothing other than reduce frame diversity, meaning on any given mission, probably 3 out of 4 of the Warframes would be the same. It would essentially be a massive penalty for NOT using the "right" frame.

 

It wouldn't make the game more fun, more challenging or more interesting. It would make it more monotonous, more boring and less creative.

 

This is exactly like +75% elemental damage for using the "right" damage type. Or avoiding a OHKO against one entire faction by using the "right" mod.

 

This is the same mechanic you're arguing in support of. Giving massive bonuses for using a specific item. Which is identical to giving a massive penalty for not using that item.

 

So you tell me Mak, do you like the idea of massive Planetary Warframe bonuses? Compared to the current system where a frame is equally viable on each planet? Why or why not?

Edited July 7, 2014 by notionphil

[Mak_Gohae]

I disagree. Nothing else has the power of a MOspery (and isn't a boss/miniboss).

 

It deals 450% if it gets a proc. And if you're in a corridor, GG. It starts kill you long before anything else does.

 

Like you said above, a max loki with no life could survive two procs from a rank 25 MOsprey not counting a hit from the cloud.

 

I aint no big city mathematician but doesnt that mean that at rank 50 it's when a 1 proc can take down a loki with no health?

And this was BEFORE the nerf.

 

By the way, i know that the damage doesnt scale that way but you guys need to seriously get off this fabrication.

Cause if you stand in front of a Heavy/ Tech/ Infested Dog, at that same rank they are going to take you down right quick.

[Mak_Gohae]

1. There are other ways to go about remedying that specific problem without sacrificing procs to RNG.

 

2. That is a flat-out lie with regards to playing by specific rules. Can you say the same thing of faction-specific elements and base damage multipliers? I didn't think so. Don't cherry-pick your examples to cover up the most glaring flaws with the system as though we don't know they exist. 

 

1. what are you suggestions?

 

2. i said you can make space for one or two mods, i didnt say you can replace all mods.  There's an actual difference there.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I aint no big city mathematician but doesnt that mean that at rank 50 it's when a 1 proc can take down a loki with no health?

And this was BEFORE the nerf.

You're math sucks. I'm not sure of the exact scaling, but if it was linear (which it most certainly is not), it gains 1.32 damage per level.

 

That means at level 42 (IF damage was linear instead of being exponential) is when it'd one shot any none 450 HP frame. I'm guessing by level 35 or so is when it'd kill any frame if it procs.

 

Like you said above, a max loki with no life could survive two procs from a rank 25 MOsprey not counting a hit from the cloud.

Actually, he'd survive one, and die on the second. 33 + (9 * 16.5) is 181.5 damage.

And you have to count the hit from the cloud, it's what is causing the tick. Without the damage from the cloud, there is no proc.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Yes, but in most games the thing [fire] hurts more is right next to other things that [fire] hurts less.

 

 

Most games? Can you give some examples where the ice monsters are hanging out next to the lava beasts?

Cause in my experience, if anything, this is actually rare.

 

Also [fire] will have other tradeoffs. Maybe it slows your weapon down, so the fire isn't put out. Maybe it reduces max damage. However, it can cause a DoT.

 

So the end result is, yes, you can bring [fire], and it has a nice DoT and will be great against monsters A, B and C, but it will suck against monsters D, E and F. Maybe ice would be better? Maybe elec? Maybe....there isn't a clear cut "right" choice.

 

As i said, WF does an OK job of this. There isn't a single "right" choice. Instead there are 2 or 3 right choices per faction and 9 or so bad choices. However, what is the benefit of not making them all "right" choices?

 

How does it help to have 2-3 right choices instead of 11 fair choices, each with significant pros and cons?

 

In Warframe there's +75% +50% +25% no bonus -25% -50% That's not a wide enough damage variation?

 

If you want tradeoff the mod system would need to be rework, i guess, because if you put and ice mod that slows down firerate we already got several of those in the game.

 

You brought up weapons not me. My point is the same about either mods or weapons though:

 

I'd rather see smaller variations in what the game says is "good" to use, so that there are more "right" choices (use fire sword because you like the fire mechanic) and less forced/false choice. (EG: use fire sword in the ice level bc it deals 2x damage)

 

I didnt bring up weapons like you are suggesting so the point of mods and weapons are not the same at all. 

And the game doesnt really say what is good to use, this is created by the people.

Yes, the stats come from the game but it's not like if you dont have that weapon the game is inaccessible to you.

[Mokkania]

Kinda lost the train of thought and what I wanted to say

 

Meh anyway, as usual you're too extreme either the way you talk or think it's hard to tell

 

At least could you tell, do you think there is no need for improvement or...?

[notionphil]

Most games? Can you give some examples where the ice monsters are hanging out next to the lava beasts?

Cause in my experience, if anything, this is actually rare.

 

C'mon Mak. You know the typical rock/paper/scissors damage setup. Hopefully you're well versed enough in games that I don't really need to give examples of this.

 

However, DE said they didn't like this... So instead we have "use X versus Y", which is far more simplistic. Instead of getting tradeoffs, we get to choose between "all benefit" and "all penalty". Great choice.

 

 

 

In Warframe there's +75% +50% +25% no bonus -25% -50% That's not a wide enough damage variation?

 

If you want tradeoff the mod system would need to be rework, i guess, because if you put and ice mod that slows down firerate we already got several of those in the game.

 

Huh?? I didn't say I wanted a wide damage variation. I want a SMALL damage variation. Or if there is a wide one, it should come with serious tradeoffs.

 

I think elemental types should give +25% dam at the most, unless they come with massive tradeoffs, like no proc or something.

 

I didnt bring up weapons like you are suggesting

 

 

 

And isn't boring to use the same weapons for everything?

 

 

This is you bringing weapons up.

 

 

 

Anyway, You are missing my entire point dude.

 

I'll post it again for you:

 

What is my overall point?

 

To understand this point further, imagine if each Warframe dealt 50% extra damage and had 50% extra effective health on the planet it is farmed from - because of its strong connection to the Orokin energy deep within that planet's core or some other lore reason.

 

So, Ember deals 150% dmg and has 150% HP/shields on Saturn

Mag deals 150% damage and 150% hp/shields on Mars.

And each Prime would have a specific void Tier and type where they get the bonus, such as Rhino Prime T3 Surv.

etc...

 

What effect would that have on the game? It would do absolutely nothing other than reduce frame diversity, meaning on any given mission, probably 3 out of 4 of the Warframes would be the same. It would essentially be a massive penalty for NOT using the "right" frame.

 

It wouldn't make the game more fun, more challenging or more interesting. It would make it more monotonous, more boring and less creative.

 

This is exactly like +75% elemental damage for using the "right" damage type. Or avoiding a OHKO against one entire faction by using the "right" mod.

 

This is the same mechanic you're arguing in support of. Giving massive bonuses for using a specific item. Which is identical to giving a massive penalty for not using that item.

 

So you tell me Mak, do you like the idea of massive Planetary Warframe bonuses? Compared to the current system where a frame is equally viable on each planet? Why or why not?

Edited July 7, 2014 by notionphil

[5Billion]

Once again, we see Mak's flawed reasoning in the whooping he just received by notionphil above me.

 

What a spectacle to behold.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1. what are you suggestions?

 

2. i said you can make space for one or two mods, i didnt say you can replace all mods.  There's an actual difference there.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242782-status-procs-30-removing-rng-from-the-equation/#entry2818726'>Funny you should ask.

 

This thread tries not to diverge too much from Warframe's current incarnation, but there are two things that need to be taken into specific consideration.

 

1. Procs are periodic. Rather than being dictated by RNG, a player has a definite idea of how often they can proc status effects, and can mod to accelerate the rate at which they can do so. This means enemies aren't afflicted with status 100% of the time, but players can get fairly close to Damage 1.0 proc incarnations if they mod specifically for that function by sacrificing utility or other benefits elsewhere.

 

2. Procs can have diminishing returns or enemies can be given specific behaviors to counteract CC-intensive procs like fire. "Give enemies a means of countering elemental damage" is an infinitely better solution to "make procs less reliable to prevent them from being overpowered." 

 

You're right, there is a difference here. The point is you should be able to replace all mods in a truly deep and extensive customization system. There should not be any "must-haves." If you insist on must-have mods, then you're essentially saying "You don't have to play by these rules, but if you don't play by these rules you must suffer the consequences without complaint." That's false choice in a nutshell when the consequences include not being combat-effective. 

 

"You don't have to be a law-abiding citizen, but if you become a criminal we'll just throw you in jail." Sounds like excellent game design.

[gell]

To keep Mak from seeming like the stubborn nut case, I do mostly agree with what he's said. Extremists aside, people in this thread have been contradicting themselves with what they want. Reminds me a bit of old lady Agnes from the Simpsons, where she was at the grocery store. "I want everything in one bag, but I don't want the bag to be heavy!"

 

People have been casually saying that they want more useless mods, but also seem to think that they should never have to swap out mods, and also think quite a few mods are essential, when they aren't. Sure, serration is an essential one, for now. Steve mentioned in the previous devstream, and this recent one, that different powered "Serrations" would come (I don't think they will be the same name unless one Serration is meant to be fused into a stronger one. This doesn't solve any number sponge problems, but it is the start of making mods less essential, even Serration. Why? Because when this happens, one of 3 things will happen: Either people will continue just using Serration, they'll use the crappier serration since they leveled that one a lot, or they'll use them both and call them both essential since both increase damage and people seem to think damage is the only thing.

 

What this opens up is a point Steve made, which is that he's a fan of trade off mods. Yeah, DE should have figured this out sooner, over a year ago really, but trade offs are the best for relatively balanced options. More damage? Then you'll have lower fire rate or longer reloads. Overall, to keep the sense of progress, the mods should give you a net increase in power or utility, but not straight upgrades. If we want to keep Serration as is, then there can be off shoots of Serration, like one that does almost as much damage, but also increases crits, or gives you faster reload. Min and maxing and everything sideways (these can be limited by being the same mod name, so you can only have one Serration). With enough options, there really is choice. But right now we're just barely starting, with Vault mods as an example of trade off mods.

 

Before finishing this post, I checked the forum for more reactions and came across a newish thread by phil. It includes a lot of mod examples that fit my point too: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/258265-forget-skill-trees-we-need-better-mods/

 

People blow things out of proportion. We don't NEED to switch out mods, but we can. Prosecutors are the biggest offenders of needing a certain mod or weapon, and none of it being controllable by the player aside from making sure you cover all the bases, but even they don't require you to totally change your mods (and yeah, DE did tweak this recently so Prosecutors take more damage from other sources). You can stick to the mods you like generally. We do have useless mods, and I'd like to believe that one day Steve/DE will actually make them useful to us,but they really are not there for us. Us in this thread, or even us on this forum. But DE has the metrics. They know if people are using Warm Coat and Intruder, and they know if that player is choosing to, or just doesn't have other mods. As much as we all are good at this game, some folks always roll with Intruder because they such at hacking and are more than happy there's a mod for it. And that's okay. Just like I don't need my Penta to have every damage increasing mod in it. I prefer punch through, reload speed, fire rate, and magazine capacity. I find there are some good options, but we could always use more. Way more. Just, hopefully, good options, trade offs, or variants, to make the game more interesting.

 

Of course, I wasn't a big fan of Damage 2.0 since it mostly made the game random, forcing you to change loadouts, or ignoring the loadout changes entirely and just using a relatively effective rainbow build. But it's not going to change much, so let's hope mods can be tweaked to cover the problems of Damage 2.0. (Also I find phil's warframe-planet hypothetical unfair, as you can take rainbow builds into any mission still, so you aren't really gimping yourself; you have 3 weapon slots, or 2 if you don't count melee as viable. The warframe-planet example is a scarecrow argument that everyone would agree with you on, but it doesn't actually illustrate the situation in Warframe, it's barely a correlation to some of the more extreme weapons, such as the ones that are 95% puncture, or elemental. But like I said, we have more than one slot.)

Edited July 7, 2014 by gell

[Mak_Gohae]

C'mon Mak. You know the typical rock/paper/scissors damage setup. Hopefully you're well versed enough in games that I don't really need to give examples of this.

 

However, DE said they didn't like this... So instead we have "use X versus Y", which is far more simplistic. Instead of getting tradeoffs, we get to choose between "all benefit" and "all penalty". Great choice.

 

Oh, i thought you meant in the game world when you said, "right next to the other."

Yeah, Warframes R/P/S is not a straight triangle it wider than that. Which is actually seen in game that do go with a lot of elements. And i havent seen a game where it's not "that simple." Can you give some examples of elemental damage used to the degree which you suggest.

 

Huh?? I didn't say I wanted a wide damage variation. I want a SMALL damage variation. Or if there is a wide one, it should come with serious tradeoffs.

 

I think elemental types should give +25% dam at the most, unless they come with massive tradeoffs, like no proc or something.

 

You quote said nothing about small variation, in fact, in quote above you kind of say you some like small damage variation.

 

You said that there are one 2 or 3 right choice while there are 9 that are bad. And that only happens with certain units specifically made to be annoying. Most units have a balance of the system i put down where more of the choices are fair while a couple are negative.

 

And i do say that if the elemental mods are also going to have disadvantages the whole mod system needs to be redone.

 

This is you bringing weapons up.

 

Again, i didnt bring up weapons in the way you suggested.

 

 

Anyway, You are missing my entire point dude.

 

I'll post it again for you:

 

What is my overall point?

 

To understand this point further, imagine if each Warframe dealt 50% extra damage and had 50% extra effective health on the planet it is farmed from - because of its strong connection to the Orokin energy deep within that planet's core or some other lore reason.

 

So, Ember deals 150% dmg and has 150% HP/shields on Saturn

Mag deals 150% damage and 150% hp/shields on Mars.

And each Prime would have a specific void Tier and type where they get the bonus, such as Rhino Prime T3 Surv.

etc...

 

What effect would that have on the game? It would do absolutely nothing other than reduce frame diversity, meaning on any given mission, probably 3 out of 4 of the Warframes would be the same. It would essentially be a massive penalty for NOT using the "right" frame.

 

It wouldn't make the game more fun, more challenging or more interesting. It would make it more monotonous, more boring and less creative.

 

This is exactly like +75% elemental damage for using the "right" damage type. Or avoiding a OHKO against one entire faction by using the "right" mod.

 

This is the same mechanic you're arguing in support of. Giving massive bonuses for using a specific item. Which is identical to giving a massive penalty for not using that item.

 

So you tell me Mak, do you like the idea of massive Planetary Warframe bonuses? Compared to the current system where a frame is equally viable on each planet? Why or why not?

 

The point here is that we see things differently but YOU folks dont actually see my side. That's the actual problem.

 

How you express your point is that if you dont put on those mods that make your build, if you decide to move even one of your mods you are gimping yourself, like you say, you are taking a massive penalty, and whatever variation to that effect.

 

I dont see it as a penalty because i dont see those mods as necessary for 95% of this game. This game is not that difficult that if you dont put on a Shield mod or a Flow mod you will stop from being able to do anything. Why? Because i compensate with my playstyle. I dont shields 90% of the time i play so you know what happens when i take the first hit? I go into survival mode and killing becomes secondary, i am now figuring out where to move to keep myself from getting hit again. This is how you play without shields, you keep it moving. 

 

If i put on flow i make myself cast a lot because if you are not using that tremendous pool of energy you are actually wasting a slot. If i dont put on flow i cast in what i think are the best times. If you dont put stretch on i need to get closer and pay attention were i cast so i dont end up in a bad position. My normal Necroframe has duration to keep his soldiers going, my farming version has stretch because i want to hit the most bodies so i play those two differently.

 

When a mod is not there to help me in a certain aspect I become that aspect through my gameplay.

 

You guys see it as taking a hit because you dont have that mod, i see as needing to do good in this aspect to make up for that mod.

 

This, OF COURSE, does not cover the actual required mods which in my eyes are really maybe a handful of mods at best. Which do not even take up half of the slots you are given.

 

Do you folks understand the difference here?

Do you folks understand why we will never agree?

You flip out because you may need an antitoxin mod because that changes the numbers and you will loose some stats. I dont care about loosing one mod because i pick a mod that i can cover through my playstyle. This is what i see being the point of the mod system, you create a build to fit a certain method of attack. I dont go into battle thinking numbers i go into battle thinking how am i going to solve the puzzle that is presented by the game by the enemies attacking, the tile i am in, the weapons i equipped, and the mods i have. I combine all of that and turn it into a solution. 

 

I have fun with the game because i play the game, i dont count numbers.

I mean, unless you are going 2 hours on Survival why are you worried about loosing a bit here or there?

If it's difficult then try to power through. Get off of this defeating, " Im going to be gimped attitude."

There are several people in these conversations saying, "pffft shields," come on... take them of, put on rejuv if you are in a team and try it out for day. But if you do that remember that you cannot play the same way you did with shields on. You have to keep moving, this is a run-n-gun game so keep doing that.

[Davoodoo]

1. what are you suggestions?

Icd- internal cd, cooldown put on target whenever said effect happens, so if it gets stunned once it cant be stunned for next x seconds. Is it that hard??

 

Also funny thing that de have problem with enemies dancing while being shot and doesnt seem to notice any problem with rhino stomping entire rooms, or vauban permamently trapping groups of enemies within vortex.

 

 

You said that there are one 2 or 3 right choice while there are 9 that are bad. And that only happens with certain units specifically made to be annoying. Most units have a balance of the system i put down where more of the choices are fair while a couple are negative.

 

And i do say that if the elemental mods are also going to have disadvantages the whole mod system needs to be redone.

 

You understand that units with different resistances than rest of its race were put later for sole reason of keeping promise "you wont have 1 element which is anti grineer 1 which is anti corpus and 1 which is anti infested like we had in dmg 1.0". 

 

For me it seems lazy, instead of truly groundbreaking changes with damage 2.0 they changed barely anything, ppl swapped AP mod for poison and still did exactly the same.

I could sum it by saying that damage 2.0 is just damage 1.0 with combined elements and status chance cause thats what it is in reality.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Davoodoo

[notionphil]

 

This is what i see being the point of the mod system, you create a build to fit a certain method of attack.

 

I dont go into battle thinking numbers i go into battle thinking how am i going to solve the puzzle that is presented by the game by the enemies attacking, the tile i am in, the weapons i equipped, and the mods i have. I combine all of that and turn it into a solution. 

 

 

Yes, that is the core difference. You want to solve a puzzle in the arsenal, with your gear. 

 

Except, it's not a puzzle, because there are only 4 situations, one per faction. If there were stacking real-time mission conditions like Nightmare (ice, storms, fires, etc), that were announced, sure, I could see an "arsenal puzzle" being fun.

 

However, "mod versus infested". Not really much of a puzzle, is it?

 

I want to solve a puzzle in real time, in the mission, with the options I prefer to use. And I'd like those options to be about as viable as whatever other people bring. Sure, you might get a slight bonus for bringing a fire sword to the ice level. Kudos. But you won't be doing 2x my damage, or laughing off an attack that one hit KO's me.

 

I shouldn't be penalized by a massive factor of output/survivability because I felt like using the Tetra with Radiation instead of the Boltor Prime with Corrosive. I want to play how I want, when I want instead of having the game tell me how I should play each mission.

 

That is the fundamental difference. You like constraints. You don't care if the game pushes everyone into using a Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime, Brakk, Dragon Nikana because you think you "figured something out" by using that build.

 

I like freedom. I want to experiment without the game kicking me in the balls and telling me "duh. wave 30 requires Corrosive or Radiation moron! and bring an antitoxin or you're going to keep getting OHKOd".

 

I'd rather it kick me in the balls and say "duh you were too slow, or aimed too badly, or used the wrong strategy, so now you're dead".

 

I'd rather have my success or failure in the mission depend on the skills and decisions I make IN THE MISSION instead of what I equip in the arsenal.

 

Is the game broken, or doomed if that's not the case? No. But that is my preference.

 

Glad to see Scott is leaning towards timing based recoveries, which would be the direction I'm referring to.

Edited July 8, 2014 by notionphil

[DiabolusUrsus]

For me it seems lazy, instead of truly groundbreaking changes with damage 2.0 they changed barely anything, ppl swapped AP mod for poison and still did exactly the same.

I could sum it by saying that damage 2.0 is just damage 1.0 with combined elements and status chance cause thats what it is in reality.

 

My gosh, I agree with this so much. I am a strong supporter of Damage 2.0 simply because it widened the selection of acceptable weapons for higher-leveled content. It was armor-ignore or bust in Damage 1.0, and there were only a few Armor Ignoring weapons. Under Damage 2.0 the weapons I loved using became much more viable to use.

 

That said, I expected them to do more with the system as they experimented with it. Much more. In my mind's eye, I think this would be a better system:

Weapons have a base damage rating (just "damage," not I/P/S) and one physical modifier. (I/P/S) that account for various weakness/resistance multipliers. 

 

Elemental mods do not add damage, and only corrosive/magnetic add any multipliers (anti-armor and anti-shields, respectively.) Otherwise, their attractiveness as options are determined by their proc effects, and how well the enemy can respond to them. 

 

Weapon damage scales with weapon rank, up to a value that is respectable in its own right. Mods like Serration should still exist, but come with tradeoffs for their benefits and feature smaller bonuses (e.g. +25% instead of +165% at max rank.) I think it would be better to have mods max out their effectiveness at rank 5. Rank 10 mods can still exist, but every rank past 5 should instead reduce the mod's point cost by 1. 

[Xylia]

Can we please stop arguing with Mak?  He doesn't get it, because he DOESN'T WANT TO GET IT.  Let him have this post.  Let him 'win' and let's focus on other topics which have well thought out feedback, rather than points that will be taken out of context and made into strawmen.

 

Let this thread die.  Nothing productive is being done here.

 

I'm convinced that Mak is a troll.

 

He's said in other threads that he doesn't even play Warframe these days at all. I don't remember which thread TBH, but I know I've read him saying that within the last couple weeks.

 

He is dead set on trying to tell everybody "This is fine, that's fine, nothing needs changed, you just suck at the game".

 

Every single thing that comes out of his keyboard is aimed at belittling everybody who wants QoL changes, or actual balance to be applied to Warframe in the slightest, trying to use his "Pro" status (that we have no proof he even has) as to why it is fine. "I can do it, therefore it is fine!" does not make constructive conversation whatsoever.

 

He has been (in my opinion) completely missing the point on purpose and he tries to nitpick the furthest-out points, tries to attack peoples' arguments by intentionally misunderstanding what they're trying to say, while repeating what he says over and over again while refusing to address people who actually counter his points. When someone counters one of his points, he just repeats the same point he made earlier.

 

So... IMO....

 

He's just trolling at this point.

 

@DiabolusUrsus:

 

Damage 2.0 did indeed make more weapons viable for more content, which is a huge plus in my book. It isn't perfect, no. I don't like the lack of choice whether or not to combine elements (Prosecutors.......sigh), and I don't really like the complexity the later iterations of D2.0 (we shoulda just kept Armor/Shield/Health/Faction and left it at that instead of having 2+ different armor/shield/health), but meh. It is far better than "AP or go home". At least Poison Mods can be placed on any weapon. Armor Ignore Damage Types could not.

 

@Notionphil on this page:

 

Amen. Looking up cookiecutter builds to be viable was never fun in any game whatsoever. It doesn't take any thought to go to Wiki, or the threads here in the forums for Warframe, or Icy-Veins for WoW, or what-not. Skill should be a measure of what you do in-mission. Dropping dead because you didn't have Antitoxin is kinda stupid. What if you don't HAVE an Antitoxin mod? Oh, derp, guess you can't do Infested whatsoever then unless you got someone who doesn't mind picking you up off the floor every few seconds... etc. etc.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Xylia

[notlamprey]

I'm convinced that Mak is a troll.

 

He's always been a troll; a troll putting unsettling amounts of effort into the process. I guess there really is a hobby for everybody.

 

I'd also prefer that more of the problem solving be pushed into the mission itself, and out of the arsenal. It kind of diminishes the Tenno that they are succeeding or failing in such a large part due to equipment choice.

 

Of course it helps to plan. That's why all real-world elite organizations do.

 

The problem with making our success in-game depend so heavily on the contents of our mission kit is that we lose the opportunity to see the Tenno be awesome in other ways. All their current "awesomeness" feels hidden underneath damage mechanics. It's easy to feel awesome when we shrug off enemy attacks and spray death all around us, but that feeling of flow seems really fragile. I don't like that, and I think we can do better.

[Mak_Gohae]

Yes, that is the core difference. You want to solve a puzzle in the arsenal, with your gear. 

 

 

I just wrote that i dont mind loosing a mod because i will compensate with my playstyle.

Do you want to exactly tell me how that translates to depending on gear?

Suggesting to put on a mod to help you in a certain situation is just that, a suggestion.

I have said that these mods are required for anything, in fact, i said the opposite, i've said, again, that you can compensate with in-mission tactics.

 

You folks are the one screaming about all these required things.

Like Scott said in the previous stream, the mods are there for people that dont ninja as well.

 

Except, it's not a puzzle, because there are only 4 situations, one per faction. If there were stacking real-time mission conditions like Nightmare (ice, storms, fires, etc), that were announced, sure, I could see an "arsenal puzzle" being fun.

 

However, "mod versus infested". Not really much of a puzzle, is it?

 

When i said the word puzzle i meant the method of attack in mission, it was not discussing gear.

The point was, IN FACT... anyone can go read my post, that you can make up for missing mods with playstyle.

And, once again, i never said a mod is required. i just made suggestion to help you if you need it.

 

I want to solve a puzzle in real time, in the mission, with the options I prefer to use. And I'd like those options to be about as viable as whatever other people bring. Sure, you might get a slight bonus for bringing a fire sword to the ice level. Kudos. But you won't be doing 2x my damage, or laughing off an attack that one hit KO's me.

 

Hey, im all for making the game more challenging but you need to see who posts in these boards because the game you are suggesting will drive certain people completely nuts. 

 

I shouldn't be penalized by a massive factor of output/survivability because I felt like using the Tetra with Radiation instead of the Boltor Prime with Corrosive. I want to play how I want, when I want instead of having the game tell me how I should play each mission.

 

Would you mind explaining exactly in how many situations in the game are you "penalized" by not bringing in the boltor.

Because this answer truly shows how you see the game, which again, i already explained how you folks see it.

 

That is the fundamental difference. You like constraints. You don't care if the game pushes everyone into using a Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime, Brakk, Dragon Nikana because you think you "figured something out" by using that build.

 

I like freedom. I want to experiment without the game kicking me in the balls and telling me "duh. wave 30 requires Corrosive or Radiation moron! and bring an antitoxin or you're going to keep getting OHKOd".

 

Wait... the guy who is telling you to get off your builds, to play with all those mods you never equip, to pick what you want translates to liking constraints.  Did you equip Super Jump to make that leap? Probably not because this is one of those mods that are a waste, right? And that i say that it has it's uses.

 

I'd rather it kick me in the balls and say "duh you were too slow, or aimed too badly, or used the wrong strategy, so now you're dead".

 

I'd rather have my success or failure in the mission depend on the skills and decisions I make IN THE MISSION instead of what I equip in the arsenal.

 

Is the game broken, or doomed if that's not the case? No. But that is my preference.

 

Glad to see Scott is leaning towards timing based recoveries, which would be the direction I'm referring to.

 

Outside of 2 hours survival and wave 100 defense the rest of the game does not require anything all the things you folks say it requires.

 

You are restricting yourself with unneeded math. You do not need optimal equipment for most of this game.

You cant make a claim that you want skill when you do not even attempt to use it and hide behind math.

There are people here and other threads in this section of the forum that have come out and said they dont use Shield, Flow, etc, etc, and they are not saying the game is impossible for them, in fact, they are said the opposite.

 

It seems to you that getting off mods is some sort fictional land like Avalon but you need to open your eyes and see that it can be done because it has been done.

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm convinced that Mak is a troll.

 

He's said in other threads that he doesn't even play Warframe these days at all. I don't remember which thread TBH, but I know I've read him saying that within the last couple weeks.

 

He is dead set on trying to tell everybody "This is fine, that's fine, nothing needs changed, you just suck at the game".

 

Every single thing that comes out of his keyboard is aimed at belittling everybody who wants QoL changes, or actual balance to be applied to Warframe in the slightest, trying to use his "Pro" status (that we have no proof he even has) as to why it is fine. "I can do it, therefore it is fine!" does not make constructive conversation whatsoever.

 

He has been (in my opinion) completely missing the point on purpose and he tries to nitpick the furthest-out points, tries to attack peoples' arguments by intentionally misunderstanding what they're trying to say, while repeating what he says over and over again while refusing to address people who actually counter his points. When someone counters one of his points, he just repeats the same point he made earlier.

 

So... IMO....

 

He's just trolling at this point.

 

 

LOL! So this is what it has come down to? Making stories about me?

"I heard that he bathes in blood!"

"I heard that he eat babies to keep young"

"I heard he is eight feet tall and shoots fireballs from his eyes and lighting from his butt!"

I dont play Warframe, ha!

I dont play 8 hours a day then flip out about there being nothing to do, sure.

 

He's always been a troll; a troll putting unsettling amounts of effort into the process. I guess there really is a hobby for everybody.

 

I'd also prefer that more of the problem solving be pushed into the mission itself, and out of the arsenal. It kind of diminishes the Tenno that they are succeeding or failing in such a large part due to equipment choice.

 

Of course it helps to plan. That's why all real-world elite organizations do.

 

The problem with making our success in-game depend so heavily on the contents of our mission kit is that we lose the opportunity to see the Tenno be awesome in other ways. All their current "awesomeness" feels hidden underneath damage mechanics. It's easy to feel awesome when we shrug off enemy attacks and spray death all around us, but that feeling of flow seems really fragile. I don't like that, and I think we can do better.

 

Seriously, folks, if you dont want to discuss the subject anymore then dont.

This is the Warframe forum this is not the Mak_gohae forum so stop discussing me.

Stop with the name calling and lies about the poster or i am just going to report each of those posts from now on.

Do i do this to you? No, so why are you doing this?

We can agree to disagree, there is nothing wrong with this.

This board is to show DE all sides and from there they pick what they are going to do.

And they can ignore all sides.

So let each side have their say and let's not sling mud.

[notionphil]

Outside of 2 hours survival and wave 100 defense the rest of the game does not require anything all the things you folks say it requires.

 

True, and outside of the seat at the piano, the other 3000 seats in Carnegie Hall don't require virtuoso-level musical skill.

 

However, to a pianist, only that one seat matters.

 

I am an endgame player. High level enemy content is the closest to endgame that currently exists. And now, if you want Loki Prime parts, those missions matter.

 

20 waves or minutes in to def/surv and using the "correct" build starts to dictate your survival. Killing a mob in 1 second versus 2.5 seconds, because you have a corrosive boltor prime instead of an fire tetra, makes a big difference. Not getting 1 shotted by a toxin proc or a grenade from a level 40 enemy makes a big difference.

 

 

There are people here and other threads in this section of the forum that have come out and said they dont use Shield, Flow, etc, etc, and they are not saying the game is impossible for them, in fact, they are said the opposite.

 

 

I don't always use those mods either.

I rarely use flow or shield (shield in high level content)

I don't ult spam, ever.

My most used frame is Nyx (before the Absorb change) and my most used weapons are Grakata and Seer (5 forma each).

 

My argument is not that the game is impossible, or too difficult without OP gear and the "correct" mod loadout. It's that having a "correct" loadout even exist makes the game less FUN.

 

Why?

 

-the game gets monotonous faster for many people who don't view self-handicap as an option, and always end up using the same "best" loadout per faction. These are the many Rhino Prime/Boltor Primes/ we see running around.

 

-the game gets frustrating faster for those who DO want to create a unique build, because we're usually playing at a 50-75% damage/survivability disadvantage, simply because we wanted to do our own thing. Like use a Seer. Or mod for stamina.

[Xylia]

True, and outside of the seat at the piano, the other 3000 seats in Carnegie Hall don't require virtuoso-level musical skill.

 

However, to a pianist, only that one seat matters.

 

*Breaks out laughing... not at you, but at the awesome analogy*

[Mak_Gohae]

True, and outside of the seat at the piano, the other 3000 seats in Carnegie Hall don't require virtuoso-level musical skill.

 

However, to a pianist, only that one seat matters.

 

I am an endgame player. High level enemy content is the closest to endgame that currently exists. And now, if you want Loki Prime parts, those missions matter.

 

20 waves or minutes in to def/surv and using the "correct" build starts to dictate your survival. Killing a mob in 1 second versus 2.5 seconds, because you have a corrosive boltor prime instead of an fire tetra, makes a big difference. Not getting 1 shotted by a toxin proc or a grenade from a level 40 enemy makes a big difference.

 

 

 

I don't always use those mods either.

I rarely use flow or shield (shield in high level content)

I don't ult spam, ever.

My most used frame is Nyx (before the Absorb change) and my most used weapons are Grakata and Seer (5 forma each).

 

My argument is not that the game is impossible, or too difficult without OP gear and the "correct" mod loadout. It's that having a "correct" loadout even exist makes the game less FUN.

 

Why?

 

-the game gets monotonous faster for many people who don't view self-handicap as an option, and always end up using the same "best" loadout per faction. These are the many Rhino Prime/Boltor Primes/ we see running around.

 

-the game gets frustrating faster for those who DO want to create a unique build, because we're usually playing at a 50-75% damage/survivability disadvantage, simply because we wanted to do our own thing. Like use a Seer. Or mod for stamina.

 

 

Why didn't you say that your thing was about endgame only?

We have been having two completely different conversations.

Endgame balancing should never tied to balancing the rest of the game.

[Xylia]

Why didn't you say that your thing was about endgame only?

We have been having two completely different conversations.

Endgame balancing should never tied to balancing the rest of the game.

 

A Newbie who buys $5 of plat and trades for a max Serration, and puts a potato on his Braton and then roflstomps the whole Star Map is pretty much erasing "Progression", don't you think?

 

Should we be Paying To Win, mmm?

Edited July 9, 2014 by Xylia